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emerson
October 17th, 2009, 05:31 PM
What you think of the job their doing ?

jna329
October 18th, 2009, 04:09 PM
What a question? You could be opening up a bag of worms(or something else). I personally have praises for, concerns, and some major complaints. I will abstain from getting too detailed just yet. I feel they are trying to do whats best for us(arkansas hunters) and still maintain good game management and conservation.
As for whether they are doing a good job. Time will tell all.
Dont forget-Its up to us to voice our (educated) opinion when we think they are wrong.

tmkilburn
October 18th, 2009, 05:23 PM
My father has worked for the game and fish for over 30 years. If you have any questions you would like answered let me know and I'll do my best.

AR_Headhunter
October 18th, 2009, 09:09 PM
In some area's they are doing fine, in some just barely ok, & in some area's they are doing a pitiful job. JMO

fishmannyj
October 18th, 2009, 11:44 PM
:zip::zip: :thumbs_do

AR_Headhunter
October 19th, 2009, 07:31 AM
My father has worked for the game and fish for over 30 years. If you have any questions you would like answered let me know and I'll do my best.

Since you volunteered I'll ask several questions of you. Why does the AGFC not do something about the illegal deer dog running? Why does the AGFC not close the loopholes to allow prosecuting attorneys the needed avenues to fully prosecute illegal dog running. Why are some of the most rugged mountainous areas in Arkansas legal for deer dogs? Even though 10% of Arkansas hunters use deer dogs & over 63% disapprove of the use of deer dogs why will the AGFC not step up to the plate & make stricter laws regarding the use of deer dogs?

The AGFC implies that they would like to see better deer management through private land owners practicing QDM but when private land owners try to practice QDM & go through the effort of producing quality deer then they are targeted by illegal dog runners. Those illegal hunters run their dogs across private property where they are not welcome with no penalty. Does this not seem a tad ironic to you?

A few years ago there was a Newton county man who was attacked & shot due to his legal activity of reporting the illegal activities of road hunters & deer dog runners. What would the AGFC like to do? Wait until people are killed to put a stop to a activity as out dated as market hunting?

tmkilburn
October 19th, 2009, 01:40 PM
/rant over. ha
I just emailed him your post verbatim and he is usually fairly quick about replying.

I do agree with you about the dogs, although it is difficult to have a game warden everywhere all the time. They are just possum cops, after all. Much like the police can't catch everyone doing something illegal all the time. I have had deer ran off of my hunting ground countless times due to dogs, however, I have also killed some of my biggest deer that were being ran by dogs (not my dogs, of course).

What would you suggest be done?

tmkilburn
October 19th, 2009, 03:02 PM
Since you volunteered I'll ask several questions of you. Why does the AGFC not do something about the illegal deer dog running? Why does the AGFC not close the loopholes to allow prosecuting attorneys the needed avenues to fully prosecute illegal dog running. Why are some of the most rugged mountainous areas in Arkansas legal for deer dogs? Even though 10% of Arkansas hunters use deer dogs & over 63% disapprove of the use of deer dogs why will the AGFC not step up to the plate & make stricter laws regarding the use of deer dogs?

The AGFC implies that they would like to see better deer management through private land owners practicing QDM but when private land owners try to practice QDM & go through the effort of producing quality deer then they are targeted by illegal dog runners. Those illegal hunters run their dogs across private property where they are not welcome with no penalty. Does this not seem a tad ironic to you?

A few years ago there was a Newton county man who was attacked & shot due to his legal activity of reporting the illegal activities of road hunters & deer dog runners. What would the AGFC like to do? Wait until people are killed to put a stop to a activity as out dated as market hunting?

Here is his response.
This dog/deer debate has been around for 30 years. The fact is there is no biological data that shows hunting deer with dogs to be detrimental to the deer herd. It might make it easier to kill a deer, but so does the use of corn feeders and high powered rifles. There are lots of laws on the books regulating dog deer hunting and tresspass. If a prosecuting attorney really wanted to prosecute, they could. As to the percentages of those who "prefer" to hunt with dogs, hunters are only hurting themselves by framing the debate in a majority voter basis. If the majority of people want to close bear hunting, should that season be closed? The vast majority of deer hunters use a modern gun. If a vote is taken and they say to close archery season, should that be it? Lastly, if I turn my beagles loose hunting for a rabbit, and they happen to jump and run a deer, is it my fault or the dogs?
Bad personal behavior, can only be legislated to a certain extent in a free society.

AR_Headhunter
October 19th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Here is his response.
This dog/deer debate has been around for 30 years. The fact is there is no biological data that shows hunting deer with dogs to be detrimental to the deer herd. It might make it easier to kill a deer, but so does the use of corn feeders and high powered rifles. There are lots of laws on the books regulating dog deer hunting and tresspass. If a prosecuting attorney really wanted to prosecute, they could. As to the percentages of those who "prefer" to hunt with dogs, hunters are only hurting themselves by framing the debate in a majority voter basis. If the majority of people want to close bear hunting, should that season be closed? The vast majority of deer hunters use a modern gun. If a vote is taken and they say to close archery season, should that be it? Lastly, if I turn my beagles loose hunting for a rabbit, and they happen to jump and run a deer, is it my fault or the dogs?
Bad personal behavior, can only be legislated to a certain extent in a free society.


I would consider that a typical answer from someone affiliated with the AGFC. That is also a response which does not address most of my direct questions. Such as,

Why does the AGFC not do something about the illegal deer dog running?
For example during the 07-08 hunting season AGFC officers issued 1 warning to illegal deer dog runners. Every hunter in this state knows that statistic is a JOKE! Every illegal deer dog runner in this state also knows the loopholes very well. For example Zone 6 which is made up of mostly public land, Piney Creeks WMA & The Ozark National Forest WMA, is a open to deer dogs zone although the vast majority of land withing zone 6 is closed to deer dogs. This obviously leaves a huge loophole for dog runners to run their animals across public land closed to deer dogs without fear of prosecution. That does not include the property owners who have their personal property rights violated because they do not want deer dogs ran across their property. :rolleyes:

Why are some of the most rugged mountainous areas in Arkansas legal for deer dogs? There was another question totally ignored.:rolleyes:

The AGFC implies that they would like to see better deer management through private land owners practicing QDM but when private land owners try to practice QDM & go through the effort of producing quality deer then they are targeted by illegal dog runners. Those illegal hunters run their dogs across private property where they are not welcome with no penalty. Does this not seem a tad ironic to you? Another question totally ignored.:rolleyes:

A few years ago there was a Newton county man who was attacked & shot due to his legal activity of reporting the illegal activities of road hunters & deer dog runners. What would the AGFC like to do? Wait until people are killed to put a stop to a activity as out dated as market hunting? Another question totally ignored.:rolleyes:


As for his answer of which was actually not even to question but factual data based on a U of A study, "As to the percentages of those who "prefer" to hunt with dogs, hunters are only hurting themselves by framing the debate in a majority voter basis." so from what he is saying I am to assume that he does not believe hunters have any idea of whats best for our deer herd? I mean really now these are the guys who spend all fall & winter actually in the woods, maintaining their property & public property, as well as observing the animals. I read the annual deer study where the AGFC is telling us our deer herd is close to balanced across the state but I'm also smart enough to know when they are attempting to blow smoke up my ***. Not all of us "hunters" are poachers & most of us actually care about the wildlife in our state. We care enough to actually become informed & to provide the AGFC with good information at the public meetings not that it is actually put to any use. Most of us even care enough not to protest the closing of fall turkey season in a effort to bring our turkey numbers back to where they need to be although I highly doubt the AGFC is going to care enough about the turkeys to also cancel spring turkey season. As most Arkansans already know our AGFC is politically motivated. If not then we would not have massive die offs of trees on many public WMA's because of the needless flooding of timber for duck hunters. If the AGFC actually cared as much about our wildlife as they claim then they would stop the ravaging of our public lands simply to please 1 group & actually do whats best for our wildlife in general. Many of us have seen the damage done to public land due to the AGFC's catering to the duck hunters in this state. The only reason that is done is because so many of our "public officials" can bring in their high dollar friends & have a public area flooded just so they can duck hunt it. Let's start actually doing what is best for our wildlife & public land in Arkansas & stop with the political BS! Now if he would like to actually answer honest questions from a concerned sportsman then I welcome his response. He should realize though that he might be dealing with someone who lives in the country but that does not make me a uneducated hillbilly. So lets save the political jargon for those who might buy it.

tmkilburn
October 19th, 2009, 06:52 PM
AR Headhunter,

I'm sure no matter what his response would have been you would have come back with some ill favored retort. No matter how many essays you write on however many forums it won't change what people do. If you are sincerely upset (which it is obvious you are) why don't you take a stroll down to the AGFC main office and consult someone there, rather than trying to pick a fight with someone on the internet. At least your time will be better spent.
I'm not going to forward your previous post because it is in ill favor. This is my dad we are talking about here. If you would revise it into a reasonable format without faces and smart alec remarks I would be more than happy to send it along.

bowshooter20
October 19th, 2009, 07:22 PM
I think he answered it pretty good. If i was asked all those ques. i would have just said we do what we can do.

jna329
October 19th, 2009, 10:58 PM
I agree that all questions werent answered and that the response given seemed to be a standard response. I have received the same type answer for several question that I have asked over the years. I do believe that they try to do what is right for the hunters but sometimes loose track of what WE want due to influences from non hunters. As for the illegal dog running-there is a lot to be done that they are not doing. As a coonhunter we are bound by certain regulations and have to jump through hoops to hunt our dogs on some public land. so i know they can enforce the deer dog laws just fine.
the problem that concerns me the most is there lack of action against poachers. it seems that unless they catch them in the act they dont care and wont even check on the reports otherwise. example - I had a guy spot light a deer with a .22 on my property. the guy got away before i could stop him. I called the stop poachers number and the response was this - we dont have the time to deal with it unless you have a video of him doing it or you have him there with you. I found him and the deer. this guy cut the horns off and left the deer to rot in his yard. not hanging -just laying in the grass. I asked himwhat his intentions were and he said he would probably throw it away. So -standing in his yard I called the game warden and he wouldnt even come check it out. too busy. this was 2006.
so there is a lot to be done. agfc is trying but i feel the focus needs to be redirected. its all politics. any time you let a small group have the say for the majority the majority will lose.

AR_Headhunter
October 26th, 2009, 08:26 PM
I did not mean to be sound rude but thats the typical response of anyone affiliated with the AGFC. As for attending meetings, I always try to attend all the meetings I can but as most know who attend the meetings, our voices are not really considered but just listened to then discarded. I made very valid points in my post as I usually do at the AGFC meetings. I understand it's your dad but you asked for our thoughts on the AGFC & you posted that you would try to get answers to our questions. If you did not mean to actually take on the hard questions then you should have posted that my friend. No hard feelings but thats the typical response we as hunters are used to getting. The AGFC is used to ignoring the hard questions or simply avoiding them all together so your dad's response was no surprise to me.

AR_Headhunter
October 26th, 2009, 08:28 PM
AR Headhunter,

I'm sure no matter what his response would have been you would have come back with some ill favored retort. No matter how many essays you write on however many forums it won't change what people do. If you are sincerely upset (which it is obvious you are) why don't you take a stroll down to the AGFC main office and consult someone there, rather than trying to pick a fight with someone on the internet. At least your time will be better spent.
I'm not going to forward your previous post because it is in ill favor. This is my dad we are talking about here. If you would revise it into a reasonable format without faces and smart alec remarks I would be more than happy to send it along.

Bye the way I was not trying to pick a fight. I was simply stating very valid points. I like a good debate where people are actually willing to discuss issues & try to make things better.

jna329
October 26th, 2009, 11:41 PM
Bye the way I was not trying to pick a fight. I was simply stating very valid points. I like a good debate where people are actually willing to discuss issues & try to make things better.

trying to make things better is what the post is for - right? i think you had very valid points.
sometimes when asked tough questions about things that we are passionate about people misinterpret our passion for arrogance and hatefulness. that is not the case. our passion for hunting (especially bowhunting for me)is just strong enough to be a little overwhelming sometimes.
but like i said - you let a small group make decisions for "all" and "all" will lose. its just politics and politics suck.

AR_Headhunter
October 27th, 2009, 08:05 AM
trying to make things better is what the post is for - right? i think you had very valid points.
sometimes when asked tough questions about things that we are passionate about people misinterpret our passion for arrogance and hatefulness. that is not the case. our passion for hunting (especially bowhunting for me)is just strong enough to be a little overwhelming sometimes.
but like i said - you let a small group make decisions for "all" and "all" will lose. its just politics and politics suck.

I totally agree. What they really need in the AGFC is people who are passionate about the wildlife of our state in the commissioners, director positions & enforcement division. The commissioners are always some fat rats who are friends of the various governors who appoint them. If you really want the best for hunting & fishing here in our state then look for those guys who attend meetings & are already involved in advisory group panels etc.. These are the guys who are truly passionate about doing whats best for our resources. After all they are already donating their time free of charge to try to make things better. As long as we keep getting people with political connections in the positions of power then how can we really expect anything to happen that actually involves the best interest of Arkansas sportsmen? Just my 1 cents.

whitewolf1
October 27th, 2009, 07:37 PM
I would really like to see better land and timber management practices used on our WMA's and would really like to see less spending on the nature centers that have popped up all over the state. The last is just a gripe.

The first point though I feel like is very valid. A more aggressive timber strategy would certainly help game populations and hunting opportunities. Land management is spotty. On the areas I hunt the most, very little is done in the way of food plots and what is done is more of an after thought than a nutritional management plan. Seems like a lot more could be done than is that would go a long ways towards improving the property and game.

I freakin hate the dogs period. Do not talk to me about fair chase or ethics and endorse the running of deer dogs. Might as well herd the deer up in a switch grass field, set fire to one side and line up with guns a blazin at the other.

fishmannyj
October 27th, 2009, 07:55 PM
I totally agree. What they really need in the AGFC is people who are passionate about the wildlife of our state in the commissioners, director positions & enforcement division. The commissioners are always some fat rats who are friends of the various governors who appoint them. If you really want the best for hunting & fishing here in our state then look for those guys who attend meetings & are already involved in advisory group panels etc.. These are the guys who are truly passionate about doing whats best for our resources. After all they are already donating their time free of charge to try to make things better. As long as we keep getting people with political connections in the positions of power then how can we really expect anything to happen that actually involves the best interest of Arkansas sportsmen? Just my 1 cents.

Well said!!!

AR_Headhunter
October 27th, 2009, 08:42 PM
Well tmkilburn viewed but no reply... I was really interested to hear his view on the points I raised.

pirogue53
October 27th, 2009, 11:47 PM
I'll give them credit for a good website, but that doesn't ensure the future of wildlife and their habitat.

tmkilburn
October 28th, 2009, 12:43 AM
Well tmkilburn viewed but no reply... I was really interested to hear his view on the points I raised.

I'll try and comment on the things of which I can relate.
I completely agree with your points, whether it be about something as grandeur as wildlife conservation or as simple as running dogs.
I'm not bias to any one type of hunting. I own a shotgun, a rifle, and a (now) a bow. I am an avid duck hunter and hunt all over the state on that flooded public land. Flooding does kill trees, but it also makes habitat for ducks. And although there will be public officials there, I will be as well. Waiting in line on Bayou Meto to put my boat in with all the other hunters, or on the Black River hoping the water stays up, or in Brinkley/Briley hoping the farmers have a good year.
I think the view you have of the average person at agfc is a bit off. They aren't all people who put on coats and ties and head off to sit at a desk all day and answer calls to fill people with nonsense. My dad, for example, isn't a commissioners, director, or even in enforcement. He is from Dover, AR (stop-sign north of Russellville) and as of right works at the shooting range in mayflower teaching concealed carry and helping run the range (if you are ever there look him up). He has always been in education, goes to high schools, middle schools, and elementary to teach hunter education/boater education and proper conservation techniques so kids can receive it and its importance at a young age. Worked at the nature center in downtown Little Rock for 5 years. Growing up with someone like that as your father is ridiculous. If you want to talk about conservation you are preaching to the quoir. I don't feel like I'm quite old enough to delve into a discussion about political agendas involving the AGFC but if you would like to contact my pops personally his personal work email is mckilburn@agfc.state.ar.us and his name is Marc.
Tell him Tanner sent you, ha.

AR_Headhunter
October 28th, 2009, 09:32 AM
I'll try and comment on the things of which I can relate.
I completely agree with your points, whether it be about something as grandeur as wildlife conservation or as simple as running dogs.
I'm not bias to any one type of hunting. I own a shotgun, a rifle, and a (now) a bow. I am an avid duck hunter and hunt all over the state on that flooded public land. Flooding does kill trees, but it also makes habitat for ducks. And although there will be public officials there, I will be as well. Waiting in line on Bayou Meto to put my boat in with all the other hunters, or on the Black River hoping the water stays up, or in Brinkley/Briley hoping the farmers have a good year.


Tanner it's good to hear back from you! Let me explain a little about myself. I'm Jack & I've been a avid outdoorsman for many years. I used to be like you & chase all sorts of game with rifle, shotgun, muzzle loader, bow, rod & reel, trot line, nets, & have did about everything possible related to enjoying the wildlife of our great state. I have also been around AGFC personnel for my entire life. I have no misconceptions about what the AGFC is or does. I have several friends who are wardens & a few who were pretty high ranking when they retired. I have a great respect for each & every one of our AGFC employees. Where that respect ends is once you get above the level of the average AGFC employee to the level of commissioners & the director. You might wonder why that is. Actually it's very simple. The majority of our commissioners for the AGFC are people who might enjoy the outdoors but they lack the passion needed to guide the agency in a direction thats actually best for the wildlife & sportsmen of our state. Every single person who is currently in a directors position are there because of their political ties & not because of their passion for the wildlife of this state. We have not had a really good passionate commissioner since Forrest Woods. The only commissioner I have any real faith in at all currently is George Dunklin Jr.. I respect his views on giving back to nature.

As for our current director, Scott Henderson. He has been a long time employee of the AGFC & while I'm sure he is a great guy, he needs to step up to the plate & provide real guidance & take on the tough issues facing the wildlife & sportsman of this state. The issue with dogs is not going away & it is reaching a boiling point with land owners such as myself & irresponsible groups of dog runners. Like I stated in a post above, there has already been 1 man shot due to a confrontation which started over illegal dog running & the road hunting hunters who were using the dogs. If something is not done quickly I fear this issue might blow up into something that will reflect very badly on our sport here in Arkansas. I imagine your father has given you a good taste of what it means to be a responsible sportsman. My hats off to him for that & for the job he does with the AGFC. I also understand his initial answer to my questions. As a employee of the AGFC it could put his job at risk to give a straight answer to my questions & I understand thats basically the answer he had to give.

As for your love of duck hunting. I understand that as well. I have spent many days a field in my younger hears chasing birds. It's a sport that is a lot of fun & enjoyed by many sportsmen of our great state. The issue I have with duck hunting revolves around habitat destruction & placing the wants & needs of duck hunters above the wants & needs of other sportsmen of our state. Every year countless acres of habitat are flooded prematurely in anticipation of duck season which deprives other sportsmen of the use of those area's. That is wrong in my opinion. Every sportsman in the state deserves the same treatment in regards to public land here. If thats not the case then the AGFC should be honest enough to come right out & say they are catering to the needs & wants of duck hunters above everyone else. That is obviously that is already happening but due to the huge backlash it would cause the AGFC will not openly admit it, you will never see that happen. As for habitat destruction. There is no sound biological reason to keep timber flooded. The flood prone regions of our state have natural flood patterns which allow ample opportunity for duck hunters. It is very destructive to habitat to manipulate those natural flood patterns & keep timber flooded for months on end. This is a issue that could be resolved in court with a class action suit against the AGFC by the sportsmen of Arkansas. I don't think it needs to come to that but if all else fails then thats likely what you will see happen. Many people & sportsmen of Arkansas are quite honestly getting very feed up with the attitude of the AGFC in regards to not doing what is best for our wildlife & habitat. Things need to change & the AGFC needs to give the needs of all law abiding sportsmen equal consideration. That would bring a ton of respect for the goals of the AGFC & public support for them would be very high instead of at the dismal rate it currently is.

As for the issue of dogs. I'm glad to see that you agree with me on that. You might be surprised to know that the vast majority of our enforcement officers also agree. After all they are the ones who have their time taken up trying to deal with all the issues that deer dog runners cause. I can only hope that the leadership of the AGFC will see that this practice causes a lot more problems than benefits to the sportsmen of Arkansas. It's a proven statistic that only 10% of Arkansas deer hunters participate in deer hunts involving the use of dogs. Anytime such a small % of hunters cause as many issues as what is caused by deer dog hunters then it is time for something to be done. This is a practice that should have been done away with right along with market hunting. The deer dog proponents use the arguement that it's a tradition. Well many years ago it was a tradition to take whatever you needed to survive regardless of game laws. Some times traditions have to bite the bullet in the name of progress for all sportsmen & in my opinion it is past that time for the outdated tradition of using dogs to hunt deer. If it were done differently then perhaps I would not be so against it. After all I grew up using dogs to hunt deer. That was back in the days when everyone went to a stand then the dogs were turned loose at various points to push the deer around. Now days dogs are cut loose & you have a group of people talking back & forth on CB radios, running up & down public roads trying to get a shot at the deer as they cross public roads, shooting onto private property, trespassing, & a host of other illegal activities. The houndsmen of old would be rolling over in their graves if they could see what their beloved sport has come to. If my grandfather were alive today & could see what his preferred way of hunting has degenerated into he would be calling for it to be stopped as well. Many of us were taught the old ways. Among those teachings were that you respected private property, you respected other hunters & their rights, you respected the wildlife that you hunt. I personally think thats the biggest downfall of our sport, the simple lack of respect shown by so many today. Hunting & fishing is a tradition passed onto me by many people in my life. I was taught respect for our way of life, our wildlife, & others. Thats a tradition that I have tried to pass on as well, Not just hunting & fishing but the respect deserved for all aspects of our sport & each other. I would like to see all of that tradition passed onto others in our sport. Then hunting & fishing opportunities in our great state would be all they could be.

If anyone sees it differently or agrees then lets here your take on this.

tmkilburn
October 28th, 2009, 10:31 AM
Jack, I really enjoyed reading your post. You shed light on an abundance of things, such as the flooding for duck hunters. Next time I strap on my waders I'm really going to consider how where I'm hunting could be different if it wasn't flooded. I've never thought of it like that. Although, with all this rain we are getting the flood gates might not even have to be opened. ha. Well, I'm going to go shoot my bow before I have to go to class.

AR_Headhunter
October 28th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Glad you enjoyed it my friend. Sometimes all we need to do is to look at things from others view points to understand where they are coming from. I wish we could all really sit down & have a adult conversation like this without people getting upset & it going nowhere. I am a hard head to a point but I am also willing to look at things from all angles & try to be fair to everyone involved.

jna329
October 28th, 2009, 11:39 AM
I wish we could all really sit down & have a adult conversation like this without people getting upset & it going nowhere. I am a hard head to a point but I am also willing to look at things from all angles & try to be fair to everyone involved
this is what everyone needs to do before they speak. if you are not educated on all aspects of the situation then you have no business arguing a point. I truly believe that headhunter has taken the time to educate himself on this subject and we should all follow suit. Its one thing to get fired up about one point, but to not see all sides leads nowhere. I believe his points may help educate us. learn before you speak. to create change in anything, we first must know what needs to change, how it got to be the way it is, why change is better, and what to do to implement the change.
well said jack. i believe that alot of people could learn from your passion for wildlife.

AR_Headhunter
October 28th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Thanks man. Now if the AGFC were just that easy to deal with.