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ArchersParadox
December 9th, 2009, 05:28 AM
...what would it take to start a campaign with the ODNR to setup a lottery system for non-residents + hiking license fees that are in-line with say, Illinois or Iowa??



1. Make phone calls and/or email to your local representatives.

2. Make phone calls and/or email to the ODNR district Office.



...maybe enlighten the key players as to the POTENTIAL for INCREASED revenue to the DOW and ODNR......



......your thoughts and opinions are highly valued...


......non-residents of Ohio may comment.....in fact you, too are encourage to contact our representatives telling them how much you are willing to help support their legislative branches with increases non-resident fees....


Thank you...

cfdjay
December 9th, 2009, 05:43 AM
I have a different view on this and there are probably a handful of people in my camp as well. I spent the majority of my life in Ohio. Born and raised until career took me to North Carolina. I still go back to hunt every year. I have no problem paying the out of state license fee because I know its for the greater good. I still hunt all the farms I cut my teeth on and even picked up a few more over the years. I go back so often in fact, it's like I never left. No matter what they raise the fee to, I'd pay it.

Now, as for the lottery, I am completely torn. Ohio is getting crushed with nonresident hunting and something has to be done. On the same token, the thought of not getting drawn in my home state makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know what the answer is.

Buckblood
December 9th, 2009, 05:46 AM
:mad:

Buckblood
December 9th, 2009, 05:49 AM
You're losing sight of the revenue that non res hunters bring to the state in other forms. People have to stay somewhere and eat and buy supplies.

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 07:23 AM
...what would it take to start a campaign with the ODNR to setup a lottery system for non-residents + hiking license fees that are in-line with say, Illinois or Iowa??



1. Make phone calls and/or email to your local representatives.

2. Make phone calls and/or email to the ODNR district Office.



...maybe enlighten the key players as to the POTENTIAL for INCREASED revenue to the DOW and ODNR......



......your thoughts and opinions are highly valued...


......non-residents of Ohio may comment.....in fact you, too are encourage to contact our representatives telling them how much you are willing to help support their legislative branches with increases non-resident fees....


Thank you...

First, I would think you start by increasing the cost on the NR lic., and compare revenue lost/gained. I suspect even if they doubled the costs of NR tags, ODNR would still sell approximately the same amount of them. Once ODNR discovers a break point in increasing the costs of NR lic's and people refusing to pay for them, you can then begin your draw system.

Everyone understands the economic incentive to the state with the influx of hunters each year, but if it's not contained & addressed now, there will no longer be much of herd to come to Ohio for. Address this before it becomes a problem.

In the long run, I very much support a draw system.

As far as how to initiate these concerns and make them heard, I think any of the above is as effective as the next.

$dabucks
December 9th, 2009, 07:25 AM
There are way too many out of staters. Ohio is the new Illinois. Time to charge as such.

One eye
December 9th, 2009, 07:33 AM
You're losing sight of the revenue that non res hunters bring to the state in other forms. People have to stay somewhere and eat and buy supplies.

Good luck. If I am going to spend $500 for a tag, it won't be for a whitetail tag ANYWHERE! I would rather go elk hunting for that kind of coin.
Dan

BaxMaine
December 9th, 2009, 07:36 AM
how much does ohio charge now?

G3's
December 9th, 2009, 07:37 AM
I think Minnesota has good regulations on non resident tag fees, they are set up so that what your home state charges for non resident hunters, that is what they charge you. I know the Ohio residents hate to see so many non resident hunters but I am sure that the amount of revenue brought into the state economy by nin residents far exceeds what a tag increase will produce. If the tags were increase by 300-400% you would lose revenue by losing the a large amount of people who come to hunt and spend money at diners, stores, hotels, sporting good shops, ect... As far as a lottery style system, that may be a good idea, you can charge a non refundable fee for application that would increase revenue as well.

AmishArcher
December 9th, 2009, 07:37 AM
Good luck. If I am going to spend $500 for a tag, it won't be for a whitetail tag ANYWHERE! I would rather go elk hunting for that kind of coin.
Dan

I think that's kinda what they were getting at. The hardcore hunters will still come, but the "on the fence" guys will shy away. Revenue will remain roughly the same, but we'll have less out of staters, leaving more deer for the residents to hunt.

I could get with something like that, but i'd be far more interested in them offering a lifetime license... I have a good private land spot I feel secure about, so a few more or less NR aren't going to directly affect me

M.Magis
December 9th, 2009, 07:38 AM
Making phone calls will only run up your bill. The DOW holds public meetings every year so the public can voice ideas. That is the sole reason for the meetings and anyone who would like changes should be attending every single one.

JWT
December 9th, 2009, 07:50 AM
So maybe we all show up at the meeting and voice our concerns. :wink: I would be willing to make the trip for that. How many other Buckeyes on this and other forums do you think could be motivated to make the trip to the meeting???

If the number is large enough it may sway the powers to consider (I hate to say it.....) "CHANGE"

gollie15
December 9th, 2009, 07:53 AM
I think Minnesota has good regulations on non resident tag fees, they are set up so that what your home state charges for non resident hunters, that is what they charge you. I know the Ohio residents hate to see so many non resident hunters but I am sure that the amount of revenue brought into the state economy by nin residents far exceeds what a tag increase will produce. If the tags were increase by 300-400% you would lose revenue by losing the a large amount of people who come to hunt and spend money at diners, stores, hotels, sporting good shops, ect... As far as a lottery style system, that may be a good idea, you can charge a non refundable fee for application that would increase revenue as well.

West Virginia and Ohio have the same regulations in place now...$500 for a deer tag would not only hurt the revenue generated by non resident hunters in Ohio, but it would have an adverse effect on the neighboring states as well. I've got several friends from the Buckeye state that can't wait to cross the river when the WV firearms season opens, so they can dust off their centerfire rifles and let them bark a little. I don't see any of them coming, if they had to pay $500 for a deer / hunting license.
Good luck, but I don't see me or any other NR hunter lobbying to get an increase for tags or being in favor of a lottery drawing.

flybub
December 9th, 2009, 08:03 AM
Eventually the price of tag/license for NR hunters is going to have to go up because in our areas the deer population is decreasing. The DNR really needs to revisit the anterless tags of each individual county because there have been a ton of deer taken in the last couple years and I along with many other people in my surrounding counties (Ashland & Richland) are seeing the effects. There are not the number of deer today that there was maybe 3 years ago. Richland County you can take up to 6 deer, Ashland County you can take 2 but I have a large group of people I hunt with and we all are noticing the population dwindle. If the state cuts the Anterless tags that hurts revenue and will need to make up for it. I don't know about a draw but I do agree with raising the NR tags/license.

raylandarcher
December 9th, 2009, 08:05 AM
I have a different view on this and there are probably a handful of people in my camp as well. I spent the majority of my life in Ohio. Born and raised until career took me to North Carolina. I still go back to hunt every year. I have no problem paying the out of state license fee because I know its for the greater good. I still hunt all the farms I cut my teeth on and even picked up a few more over the years. I go back so often in fact, it's like I never left. No matter what they raise the fee to, I'd pay it.

Now, as for the lottery, I am completely torn. Ohio is getting crushed with nonresident hunting and something has to be done. On the same token, the thought of not getting drawn in my home state makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know what the answer is.

I understand totally where you are coming from but it is no longer your home state.You reside in North Carolina now.

mjbrady
December 9th, 2009, 08:14 AM
I'm sorry guys for the NR problem you seem to have! But, it has nothing to do with the cost of the tag at all in my opinion. The amount of huntable land in OH for a NR is vastly more than IL or IA. If OH only had less state land or park land that allows anyone access the numbers would not be as high IMO. What number would you be exceptable capping it at? 5,000? 25,000? The problem as we NR see it is, our money is spent on things you dont spend it on, like hotels and restuarant visits, camp site fees and a higher license fee's. Most NR''s are only there for short time period a week to 10 days then they are on the way back home. What exactly are the NR's taking that they are not wanted by you? I'm very sorry a few of you have lost hunting spots you have had for years for free to a NR hunter that leases the land, but that happens not only in your state but every state. If you limit an item its desire tends to go up, therefore driving the Outfitting side up as well. I dont see OH limiting it's NR anytime soon, the money that is brought into the state via NR would be hard to replace. The OHDNR has done a fantastic job with its whitetail herd and I believe many NR have also tryed to do there part by taking does while hunting there. I surely dont have all the answers, but hunting is going in a different direction than it every has before and we as hunters need to be together and not so seperate on the rights of each other. I live in a state that has some of the most beautiful beaches on the East coast and I for one hope they never put a cap on the NR they allow to enjoy them. Kinda seems a little selfish to me. But thats only my opinion, maybe I should ask my state to limit NR use of NC beaches so I have more opportunities when I want to go.

ohhiitznik
December 9th, 2009, 08:23 AM
Im going to hunt in ohio this year.. IN january when my season is closed up here in MI. And I have a prime 500 acre farm to hunt in Brown County! :)

Nomad_Archer
December 9th, 2009, 08:32 AM
I usually stay out of these because I feel NR license fees every where are getting out of hand. I live in Ohio and dont mind paying $150 to hunt as a NR in PA at my camp in NW PA. But if they pushed the price up any higher I would consider not buying the hunting license and hunt at home because frankly the deer hunting is pretty terrible. Raising the NR fees will not help the deer herd sorry. What will help the deer herd is limiting the number of doe tags that are given out. Right now everyone gets an either sex tag and can but an antlerless tag for archery season and the first week of gun season if you hunt in zone c. The either sex and antlerless tags can be used. anywhere in the state. If you want to see more deer then limit antlerless tags and the antlerless deer harvest. Chasing the NR hunter out of state by raising the licesne fees will really do more harm than good in the long run because at the rate the NR and Resident hunters are harvesting deer we will continue to see less and less animals on public ground. IMO there needs to be more management and control of the deer harvest then raising the fees on the NR hunter and chase him out of town. As a NR hunter in another state I do not want to see the fees increase in my home state as I wouldnt want them to increase in PA. The license fee now is managable if PA made it 250 -500 I will go else where. I only hunted 12 days in PA this year and paid $165 in tags when it was all said and done and that doesnt include the money spent on gas, taxes, insurance, groceries, and beer that I put back into the local economy.

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 08:37 AM
...what would it take to start a campaign with the ODNR to setup a lottery system for non-residents + hiking license fees that are in-line with say, Illinois or Iowa??



1. Make phone calls and/or email to your local representatives.

2. Make phone calls and/or email to the ODNR district Office.



...maybe enlighten the key players as to the POTENTIAL for INCREASED revenue to the DOW and ODNR......



......your thoughts and opinions are highly valued...


......non-residents of Ohio may comment.....in fact you, too are encourage to contact our representatives telling them how much you are willing to help support their legislative branches with increases non-resident fees....


Thank you...


How about we make a lottery for bowhunting.... Everyone... What are tyou.. some elitist?? Hunting #'s are on the down turn and you want to reduce them further by rejecting people??? Way to go... Way to further cause desention among the ranks but I forgot... It's all about YOU.. Or you... man.. when will people give up this crap... You are doing more damage to this sport than any anti hunter... in fact.. this is exactly what they want...

:mad::mad: Anyone that thinks this is a positive step is misguided for sure..

Catdaddy SC
December 9th, 2009, 08:37 AM
Maybe Myrtle Beach could put a $500.00 visitor tax on the vacationers from Ohio. That would cut our summer traffic problems in half.



(note-I've never been to Ohio and don't plan on it)

Bowtechie
December 9th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Something surely needs to be done. One of the NY hunters that was in my vicinity took home a 4 pointer saying he had to justify the $150. Multiply that attitude and it's going to hurt us. Maybe they need to have an antler restriction plus a doubling of the fees for NR. As to losing the other money I have seen guys come in with everything they need and camp out.
Posted via Mobile Device

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 08:48 AM
How about we make a lottery for bowhunting.... Everyone... What are tyou.. some elitist?? Hunting #'s are on the down turn and you want to reduce them further by rejecting people??? Way to go... Way to further cause desention among the ranks but I forgot... It's all about YOU.. Or you... man.. when will people give up this crap... You are doing more damage to this sport than any anti hunter... in fact.. this is exactly what they want...

:mad::mad: Anyone that thinks this is a positive step is misguided for sure..

Riiiight.

Iowa, who has a similar system if not identical to the one the OP tossed out there, is the reason for a demise amongst hunters. I can totally see that! :)

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 08:55 AM
Riiiight.

Iowa, who has a similar system if not identical to the one the OP tossed out there, is the reason for a demise amongst hunters. I can totally see that! :)

Never said Iowa was on the right path either.... I think these states are trying fund more and more on the backs of hunters... to the point people will stop going... Ct just doubled their license fees... Won't hunt there now.. Remember... it is still just a deer... Backing states that do this is just fueling the demise of hunting... Back it if you want.. but it is serious detrmental to the sport and will make it a "rich mans game" if this continues...

jgss2
December 9th, 2009, 08:55 AM
I am from PA and currently have a farm leased in ohio. Prior to that I hunted with outfitters in Ohio for 5 years straight. I have spent hundreds on licenses in Ohio but thousands on other things such as outfitter fees, hotel rooms, food, supplies, lease payments, etc... That would not be really smart for Ohio to keep hunters like me from being able to come there and spend my money. I have seen other threads on here concerning keeping non-residents from being able to lease land. That is absurd. Why punish the landowners because the residents want to hunt on their land for free. The land that I leased was on the market locally and no-one would pay the fee, which was not that steep. The landowners have taxes to pay and leasing helps. I love hunting in OHIO. I am looking to purchase a lot near my lease to put a cabin on. I am not trying to start an arguement but I think that someone stating they want to keep non-residents out or limit them is for selfish, personal reasons and not for the good of the state or it's landowners!

AmishArcher
December 9th, 2009, 09:11 AM
How about we make a lottery for bowhunting.... Everyone... What are tyou.. some elitist?? Hunting #'s are on the down turn and you want to reduce them further by rejecting people??? Way to go... Way to further cause desention among the ranks but I forgot... It's all about YOU.. Or you... man.. when will people give up this crap... You are doing more damage to this sport than any anti hunter... in fact.. this is exactly what they want...

:mad::mad: Anyone that thinks this is a positive step is misguided for sure..

i don't know that you could be more wrong. People traveling to Ohio to hunt are not newbies to the sport. They're guys who save their vacation days and their money to hunt trophy deer. We're simply trying to curb the number of NR tearing up the land and keep revenues the same. Iowa is still one of the premier states to go whitetail hunting, and the desire has gone up even more because its a privilege to hunt there, aka, you're not guaranteed a license and tags.

Now if you have immediate family that lives there with hunting land, I'm not trying to break up family time and deer camp. That's very valuable...

but to say this is keeping people out of the sport is asinine and ridiculous

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 09:21 AM
i don't know that you could be more wrong. People traveling to Ohio to hunt are not newbies to the sport. They're guys who save their vacation days and their money to hunt trophy deer. We're simply trying to curb the number of NR tearing up the land and keep revenues the same. Iowa is still one of the premier states to go whitetail hunting, and the desire has gone up even more because its a privilege to hunt there, aka, you're not guaranteed a license and tags.

Now if you have immediate family that lives there with hunting land, I'm not trying to break up family time and deer camp. That's very valuable...

but to say this is keeping people out of the sport is asinine and ridiculous

OK.. so I think your wrong.. who does that make right then??? Honestly... States will price themselves out of hunters if they keep this up.. That in itself will cause problems in that state... I don't currently hunt a lot in my own state... The lack of Sunday hunting alone causes me to hunt neighboring NY... But if NY went to $500.00 I can't see paying that... Ct complains of to many deer/car collisions but then doubles the NR license fee.. My thinking is.. Better get Maaco... (Car repair shop)... Making the sport cost to much for the "common man" will do exactly what I said.. keep people from joining or youths from ever starting.. That my bowhunting friend is ASSININE... not ridiculous... it's Math... The "Exact" science... :wink:

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 09:24 AM
...what would it take to start a campaign with the ODNR to setup a lottery system for non-residents + hiking license fees that are in-line with say, Illinois or Iowa??



1. Make phone calls and/or email to your local representatives.

2. Make phone calls and/or email to the ODNR district Office.



...maybe enlighten the key players as to the POTENTIAL for INCREASED revenue to the DOW and ODNR......



......your thoughts and opinions are highly valued...


......non-residents of Ohio may comment.....in fact you, too are encourage to contact our representatives telling them how much you are willing to help support their legislative branches with increases non-resident fees....


Thank you...

For you Buckeyes :wink:

David Graham; Chief DOW
2045 Morse Rd., Bldg. G
Columbus, Ohio 43229-6693

I'll have a telephone number before the days out from some of my contacts (used to work for ODNR back in the day) :)

shamlin
December 9th, 2009, 09:35 AM
I was born and raised in Ohio, 22 years. Moved twice and now reside in FL. I go back home every year to hunt Ohio deer. I also take my entire family, we are all hunters. My license and tags cost are approximately $700. We normally spend 2 weeks there so expenses are around $1500. This year we harvested 3 deer out of the 5 hunters. We also hunt public land so that alone makes it more difficult. If tag fee's were to get into the $500 range, I would spend the extra expense money and go out West and hunt elk. This is the most insane idea I have ever heard. What if FL started taxing the crap out of you to come here and enjoy Disney, Universal, the beach, or hell just the warm weather in winter! I don't go to any of these places in the winter time because of all the snowbirds down here crowding the theme parks and shopping malls. But I also realize they are vital to our economy, so I tolerate it. This kind of thinking is just what my title says........UNBELIEVABLE!

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 09:49 AM
I can honestly understand why residents would want this... To some degree... Ohio has a great deer management program, due in part to the guys that live and hunt there.. As an out of stater (I don't Ohio yet) I applaud the efforts of the DNR and the hunters in that state.. but trying to keep it to yourselves is not really the way you want to represent hunters in your state. What if the state made the license costs the same?? You would probably be calling for someone to be fired... When NR's show up, we pay hotel's, gas, food, etc and supply states with a lot of "extra" $'s to more than cover the time we are actually there in your state.. We take almost nothing from the state tax dollars other than some renewable deer... But it funds a lot of state agencies I'm sure and state projects that rely on tax $'s and revenue generated by "us" showing up and spending out of state $'s. So as an "out of stater", I think we do "pay" to hunt other states enough money already... I would go with the same % increase residents pay if they take an increase as well though... Fair is fair... :wink:

Illinois59
December 9th, 2009, 09:53 AM
I was born and raised in Ohio, 22 years. Moved twice and now reside in FL. I go back home every year to hunt Ohio deer. I also take my entire family, we are all hunters. My license and tags cost are approximately $700. We normally spend 2 weeks there so expenses are around $1500. This year we harvested 3 deer out of the 5 hunters. We also hunt public land so that alone makes it more difficult. If tag fee's were to get into the $500 range, I would spend the extra expense money and go out West and hunt elk. This is the most insane idea I have ever heard. What if FL started taxing the crap out of you to come here and enjoy Disney, Universal, the beach, or hell just the warm weather in winter! I don't go to any of these places in the winter time because of all the snowbirds down here crowding the theme parks and shopping malls. But I also realize they are vital to our economy, so I tolerate it. This kind of thinking is just what my title says........UNBELIEVABLE!

They do, it's called a tourist tax. :darkbeer:

Illinois59
December 9th, 2009, 09:54 AM
i don't know that you could be more wrong. People traveling to Ohio to hunt are not newbies to the sport. They're guys who save their vacation days and their money to hunt trophy deer. We're simply trying to curb the number of NR tearing up the land and keep revenues the same. Iowa is still one of the premier states to go whitetail hunting, and the desire has gone up even more because its a privilege to hunt there, aka, you're not guaranteed a license and tags.

Now if you have immediate family that lives there with hunting land, I'm not trying to break up family time and deer camp. That's very valuable...

but to say this is keeping people out of the sport is asinine and ridiculous

See, now I gotta call you out Seth! :)

What the heck are the non residents doing to hurt the land!? :confused:

jgss2
December 9th, 2009, 09:58 AM
See, now I gotta call you out Seth! :)

What the heck are the non residents doing to hurt the land!? :confused:

I'd like to know this myself. Where I hunt it is the Non-residents with leases who respect the land and deer herd and want to see things managed for the long term trophy quality.
However it is the local RESIDENTS who poach at night, shoot everything that moves, tresspass, and tear everything up with ATVs.

PAFingerShooter
December 9th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I am from PA and managed to go on my first OH deer hunt this year with seven other guys. Of the eight of us I was the only one to take a deer. Bye the way it happened to be a decent one scoring 146 3/8 gross. We are all experienced archers and the chance at a nice deer is why we came. However if the NR license fees were $500 none of us would have made it. We figure that it cost us an average of $800 a piece for the hunt this year which is $6400 for one deer. If OH increases NR licenses we will look for some other state to spend that money. We are all working men and save most of the year for one trip. I hope it will be OH again next year but spending another $350 for a deer just won't happen.

Also thanks to all the guys/gals in this forum for the great information and pics. I have been reading for a while but this is my first post!

deerslayer451
December 9th, 2009, 10:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nRSOvscgAs&feature=related

Here they are LMFAO.......

Bowtechie
December 9th, 2009, 10:24 AM
I can honestly understand why residents would want this... To some degree... Ohio has a great deer management program, due in part to the guys that live and hunt there.. As an out of stater (I don't Ohio yet) I applaud the efforts of the DNR and the hunters in that state.. but trying to keep it to yourselves is not really the way you want to represent hunters in your state. What if the state made the license costs the same?? You would probably be calling for someone to be fired... When NR's show up, we pay hotel's, gas, food, etc and supply states with a lot of "extra" $'s to more than cover the time we are actually there in your state.. We take almost nothing from the state tax dollars other than some renewable deer... But it funds a lot of state agencies I'm sure and state projects that rely on tax $'s and revenue generated by "us" showing up and spending out of state $'s. So as an "out of stater", I think we do "pay" to hunt other states enough money already... I would go with the same % increase residents pay if they take an increase as well though... Fair is fair... :wink:

The best answer is do what we've done in our state i.e. make changes to the existing management techniques to increase the numbers and quality of deer then people won't have to come in from their own state. On second thought that may not be possible considering the political climate of Mass.:confused: We really don't want to keep it all to ourselves but things are getting to the point that it is going to affect the overall quality of the herd if SOMETHING isn't done to tone it down.

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 10:30 AM
I am from PA and managed to go on my first OH deer hunt this year with seven other guys. Of the eight of us I was the only one to take a deer. Bye the way it happened to be a decent one scoring 146 3/8 gross. We are all experienced archers and the chance at a nice deer is why we came. However if the NR license fees were $500 none of us would have made it. We figure that it cost us an average of $800 a piece for the hunt this year which is $6400 for one deer. If OH increases NR licenses we will look for some other state to spend that money. We are all working men and save most of the year for one trip. I hope it will be OH again next year but spending another $350 for a deer just won't happen.

Also thanks to all the guys/gals in this forum for the great information and pics. I have been reading for a while but this is my first post!



But AmishHunter said this idea of not going there was assinine??? :mg::confused2:

:wink: See.... less hunters... or are the above statements assinine as well??

Bowtechie
December 9th, 2009, 10:33 AM
I'd like to know this myself. Where I hunt it is the Non-residents with leases who respect the land and deer herd and want to see things managed for the long term trophy quality.
However it is the local RESIDENTS who poach at night, shoot everything that moves, tresspass, and tear everything up with ATVs.

The NR's hunting around me knocked down an entire 3/4 mile long row of corn to get their 4 pointer out with one of those 2 wheeled carts. How much would that cost?

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 10:36 AM
The best answer is do what we've done in our state i.e. make changes to the existing management techniques to increase the numbers and quality of deer then people won't have to come in from their own state. On second thought that may not be possible considering the political climate of Mass.:confused: We really don't want to keep it all to ourselves but things are getting to the point that it is going to affect the overall quality of the herd if SOMETHING isn't done to tone it down.

Trust me... Born and raised here... I know about the political climate of my state... :frusty::frusty::frusty:

But running license fees up for NR's doesn't make sense... It will stop some of them.. but others will think "If I'm paying this much, I'm taking my moneys worth in venison, i.e. smaller/younger bucks back with me"... It will hurt your bucks in the long run... Just my 2 cents...

deerslayer451
December 9th, 2009, 10:38 AM
Oh my lord...put a tampon in it and stop the crying

AmishArcher
December 9th, 2009, 10:38 AM
See, now I gotta call you out Seth! :)

What the heck are the non residents doing to hurt the land!? :confused:

I may have painted with too broad a stroke there...

There are many NR who are an asset to have in state. I should have been more aware of that. Too many people do the same thing with the Amish because there's a few slobs out there. so i'll retract that part.

I'm not for a ridiculous price like $500 for a tag, but $24 for a tag and $150 for a license is pretty darn good for a midwestern state dont ya think? I think our DNR has done a great job making this state the place that it is. I just think they should be paid accordingly. Theres no reason why you should be able to hunt Ohio and WV at roughly the same price. They are not in the same ballpark as far as quality hunting.

islandhuntah
December 9th, 2009, 10:40 AM
how much does ohio charge now?:

think its $190 NR, just for license then tags on top of that?

deerslayer451
December 9th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Amish..you hunt does anyway...whats it matter to you...didnt you shoot your friends deer yesterday instead of giving him your gun?

IM PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF LOCAL 1021 POT STIRING LOCAL...LOL

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 10:45 AM
Ohio's economy would surely tank if fees went up. I mean, just look at how Iowa, Illinois and others now they woe the day they increased NR fees, initiated draw systems :chortle: This whole argument of homes and banks foreclosing, cattle farms going belly up and the end of Ohio as we know it, rings hallow. It's simply untrue. Where's the threads berating those states?

Iowa looks ok from here as far as I can tell. So does Illinois & Kansas. Nothing's closed down as a result of NR lic fees and costs. Or from a draw system. While I'm not sure Ohio is in the same class as those states for deer, it's close. Very close. Look at the endless OMG OHIO BIG BUCK DOWN!!! threads that spawn in this forum daily. Therefore, looking closer at NR fees is not only practical and makes good ecomonic sense, but a better question is, "if they did it, why can't we?" Supply and demand, and the demand is soooo there. :)

The concern here isn't greed - for money or keeping "land for one's self". I think the OP's concern is preserving a seemingly declining deer herd. Not all residents feel the herd has been beaten down, but the majority of hunters - particularly bowhunters who are out there daily - sure think so. I'm one of those.

Less hunters typically means less deer killed. That is, barring catastrophic kill limits.

Are NR's the cause? That's ridiculous to even insinuate it. The large part of the dilema is ODW's over estimation of the herd. The categorized zones and their respective kill/tag limits must be reexplored and reevaluated too.

But until then, however unpopular the thought is for out of staters, I fully support a draw system until the herd is once again robust, healthy and where it should be. It would not be popular, people will be people and complain like any other time a higher fee or tax is instituted they will scream and claim they'll never be back, and some people will even priced out. Changes are not always "fair."

AmishArcher
December 9th, 2009, 10:49 AM
Amish..you hunt does anyway...whats it matter to you...didnt you shoot your friends deer yesterday instead of giving him your gun?

IM PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF LOCAL 1021 POT STIRING LOCAL...LOL

:ban: quit hijacking this important thread...

I got nothing against NR hunters, just doesn't seem right that there has been so much work into making this the big buck state that it is, then sell it at a discounted rate. That's all I'm saying. If you're one of the best, act like it.

We're one of the best states in the union to hunt because of the public land etc and i'm proud of that. But charge what the market will bear.

Dang, am I encouraging sending more money to the government??? I may throw up now... :pukey:

jgss2
December 9th, 2009, 10:51 AM
The NR's hunting around me knocked down an entire 3/4 mile long row of corn to get their 4 pointer out with one of those 2 wheeled carts. How much would that cost?


I think those folks are in the minority as far as non-residents are concerned. Most pay $150 to come to OHIO for big bucks and not 4 pts. I understand what you are saying but I'd say the residents do just as much and probably more poaching, damage, tresspassing, etc.. than the NR hunters. At least it is that way where I have a lease.

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 10:54 AM
If this isn't about "those things", and it is about herd quantity... Then stop allowing up to 6 does to be harvested... only 1 buck can be for the year if I read it right (But I just read it quickly) so reducing the doe tags would help your herd without the additional costs to hunters or a "lottery"... And Iowa and Kansas are doing well because of TV. Outfitters I would guess and not self guided hunts are the majority of out of staters... Again.. I am guessing but I don't normally see posts of someone from Illinois driving to Iowa to hunt for a week...

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 11:13 AM
If this isn't about "those things", and it is about herd quantity... Then stop allowing up to 6 does to be harvested... only 1 buck can be for the year if I read it right (But I just read it quickly) so reducing the doe tags would help your herd without the additional costs to hunters or a "lottery"... And Iowa and Kansas are doing well because of TV. Outfitters I would guess and not self guided hunts are the majority of out of staters... Again.. I am guessing but I don't normally see posts of someone from Illinois driving to Iowa to hunt for a week...

Up to 6?

Try 12.

Read my post again, if indeed that was what you were referring to. Here, I'll help you along.


Are NR's the cause? That's ridiculous to even insinuate it. The large part of the dilema is ODW's over estimation of the herd. The categorized zones and their respective kill/tag limits must be reexplored and reevaluated too.

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 11:34 AM
OK.. so you think by sky rocketing the NR license fees it will slow the people in your state killing to many does... I'm thinking NR hunters are coming for the 21 buck tag we get... Have them lower the doe permit #'s and ya'll should be happy... right??????????

buckIbowhunter
December 9th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I have not seen as many deer this year as years past and I think the increased amount of doe tags the last couple years is taking its toll. I like shooting does, but I also like to see deer when I hunt. I don't think that we should go to a lottery system, but I do think that the NR deer permit fee should be raised and NR permits should be limited to one either sex tag. Most NR hunters come to Ohio for a chance at a trophy buck anyway. Another thing that wasn't mentioned is the amount of crop damage permits that are being used to harvest antlerless deer. In one area I hunt (and it isn't a very big area) the farmer on the adjacent property was given 8 crop damage permits and the shooters took 7 anterless deer.

bowmanhunter
December 9th, 2009, 11:48 AM
do you guys read the Ohio Outdoor News? Great article in there on this subject this month.

Non-residents created $4 million dollars revenue from hunting last year. 4 people from EVERY SINGLE state in the US hunted Ohio.Along with 7 other countries:eek:

They said they will not raise the fees on NR's anytime soon.They stated hunting itself was taking a real beating with the younger generations not stepping up, so they are afraid it would back frie on them by raising the fees.

Also good to note, 66% of non-residents harvested a DOE.:wink:not a buck

lost n mi
December 9th, 2009, 11:56 AM
I usually stay out of these because I feel NR license fees every where are getting out of hand. I live in Ohio and dont mind paying $150 to hunt as a NR in PA at my camp in NW PA. But if they pushed the price up any higher I would consider not buying the hunting license and hunt at home because frankly the deer hunting is pretty terrible. Raising the NR fees will not help the deer herd sorry. What will help the deer herd is limiting the number of doe tags that are given out. Right now everyone gets an either sex tag and can but an antlerless tag for archery season and the first week of gun season if you hunt in zone c. The either sex and antlerless tags can be used. anywhere in the state. If you want to see more deer then limit antlerless tags and the antlerless deer harvest. Chasing the NR hunter out of state by raising the licesne fees will really do more harm than good in the long run because at the rate the NR and Resident hunters are harvesting deer we will continue to see less and less animals on public ground. IMO there needs to be more management and control of the deer harvest then raising the fees on the NR hunter and chase him out of town. As a NR hunter in another state I do not want to see the fees increase in my home state as I wouldnt want them to increase in PA. The license fee now is managable if PA made it 250 -500 I will go else where. I only hunted 12 days in PA this year and paid $165 in tags when it was all said and done and that doesnt include the money spent on gas, taxes, insurance, groceries, and beer that I put back into the local economy.

very well said !the issue is how many doe tags are issued michigan dosent get the out of stater like ohio (i know i would pay that much to hunt this state your allowed 2 bucks up which is crazy ,& you can buy doe tags until the run out for private & state .i think every state is handing out to many tags .i have heard that the tags issued has alot to do with the insurance companies to got down on deer & auto accidents . last year i seen more deere in one herd then all of the deer i seen this year X2 .i worry that my son wont even get to hunt by the time hes old enough

Epinepherine
December 9th, 2009, 11:57 AM
Also good to note, 66% of non-residents harvested a DOE.:wink:not a buck

Those silly hunters

:)

buckIbowhunter
December 9th, 2009, 01:25 PM
If 66% of NR hunters harvested a DOE and at least 4 people from every state and at least 7 people from other countries hunted ohio this year, than it might make sense to limit the amount of DOES that NR hunters can harvest, especially with the amount of DOE tags that are available now. Don't get me wrong, I agree with shooting plenty of DOES. I just think that the DOE tags should be reduced over the next few years, because I am starting to see less and less deer, and from what I have heard from other hunters they are seeing less deer too ( at least where I hunt).

superbuckeye
December 9th, 2009, 01:46 PM
This is a very tough issue to deal with because no matter what you do, it won't be right. Some will say it's not enough, some will say it's too much. I agree that the herd estimates seem to be grossly inflated and the bag limits are way too high. I think the main issue here is not a main issue at all, it's a combination of issues. Ohio residents are tired of being the best bargain in deer hunting, seeing NR's flock by the thousands to our state reducing the deer numbers, while we are raped by NR fees in other states when we travel. Yes, there is a little selfishness involved. Ohio residents are loosing hunting ground all the time to NR who seem to have bottomless wallets. Whitetails are our prime big game in Ohio. How would it make residents of say Colorado feel if Ohio residents came and leased up the majority of the ground so that we could kill a big portion of your Elk herd, thereby reducing your oportunities? For those that talk about all the money they spend to stimulate the Ohio economy, I say you have a valid point... BUT, think about this for a second.... who really spends more in Ohio.... NR's who come for a couple weeks a year and spend maybe a couple thousand a year, or the residents who are here 52 weeks a year and pay tax after tax after tax plus fee after fee after fee? There is no single fix all answer. There needs to be compromise on everyone's part. The bottom line is deer hunting is Ohio's cash cow and they aren't gonna lose those dollars by restricting NR's. I see a major reduction is deer populations from just a few years ago. I hope they can come up with an answer that is acceptable to most... you will never make everyone happy.

bucksandbirdies
December 9th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Get rid of all non-resident hunters and then your resident tag will be $500.I hunted Ohio this year for the first time,my observation was that there were a ton of does,much more than i ever see in Ka.and Ill.I hunted Ka. and Ohio this year,i would not go back to Ohio if the fee went way up. In hunting the midwest for 15 years now i don't put Ohio in the same category as Ia.,Ka.,Ill.Even though i thought it was some of the most beautiful country i have ever seen.Just my 2 cents.

Grizz1219
December 9th, 2009, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=bucksandbirdies;10563479 34]Get rid of all non-resident hunters and then your resident tag will be $500.QUOTE]

Amen.... :thumbs_up:wav:

bowmanhunter
December 9th, 2009, 02:53 PM
In hunting the midwest for 15 years now i don't put Ohio in the same category as Ia.,Ka.,Ill.Even though i thought it was some of the most beautiful country i have ever seen.Just my 2 cents.

check the record books for the past 50 years:wink:

Not a cheaper place to hunt world class deer anywhere.

shamlin
December 9th, 2009, 07:03 PM
They do, it's called a tourist tax. :darkbeer:

Dude, you are so mis-informed, do you really think they check your license to see where your from and if you are an out of state resident you get charged extra tax.....WOW! We all, residents included, pay the same tax! Like I said before........UNBELIEVABLE!

Stanley
December 9th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Why not residents only and $500.00 a licence.

Bigbuckslayer
December 9th, 2009, 07:16 PM
Ya raise the fees that way you can have only wealthy hunters not every day hourly workers like me THANKS .

Bobmuley
December 9th, 2009, 07:20 PM
If you'd like to see it you'll probably have to prove that it will help meet herd objectives. I was under the assumption that there were too many deer in Ohio as it is...don't see how cutting down on the numbers of hunters would help meet their goals.

Also think of the side affects. While I'm sure some leasing goes on now by outfitters it will only get worse with higher fees and the soon-to-follow higher outfitter fees. Doesn't matter if its Montana, Colorado, Illinois, or Alabama...wherever they limit hunters, groups of outfitters lease up more land to capitalize on it. What would that do for the locals?

ArchersParadox
December 9th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I copied this from the other thread...


Plain and Simple......eliminate the non-residents...eliminate the outfitters...eliminate the land leasing......open more private land to average Joes like me and my BUCKeye bow hunting buddies...

I love the argument...."oh...well hell..if you don't have the $$ to buy a lease..too friggin' bad....."

well my friends... the majority of bow hunters in Ohio and elsewhere DO NOT have the $$ to buy leases..or buy 100's nor 1,000's of acres of land....

so...you want to eliminate the majority of the bow hunters to satisfy the needs of the minority???



nope.....holds no water....Plain and simple.....

ArchersParadox
December 9th, 2009, 07:49 PM
How about we make a lottery for bowhunting.... Everyone... What are tyou.. some elitist?? Hunting #'s are on the down turn and you want to reduce them further by rejecting people??? Way to go... Way to further cause desention among the ranks but I forgot... It's all about YOU.. Or you... man.. when will people give up this crap... You are doing more damage to this sport than any anti hunter... in fact.. this is exactly what they want...

Anyone that thinks this is a positive step is misguided for sure..



.....no...you are way off base my friend....I speak for the majority of Ohio hunters....have you seen ONE Ohio hunter balk at the notion?



Never said Iowa was on the right path either.... I think these states are trying fund more and more on the backs of hunters... to the point people will stop going... Ct just doubled their license fees... Won't hunt there now.. Remember... it is still just a deer... Backing states that do this is just fueling the demise of hunting... Back it if you want.. but it is serious detrmental to the sport and will make it a "rich mans game" if this continues...

...it has already made it a "rich man's" game....if you haven't figured that out....you outta read some more on leasing land and outfitters...



OK.. so I think your wrong.. who does that make right then??? Honestly... States will price themselves out of hunters if they keep this up.. That in itself will cause problems in that state... I don't currently hunt a lot in my own state... The lack of Sunday hunting alone causes me to hunt neighboring NY... But if NY went to $500.00 I can't see paying that... Ct complains of to many deer/car collisions but then doubles the NR license fee.. My thinking is.. Better get Maaco... (Car repair shop)... Making the sport cost to much for the "common man" will do exactly what I said.. keep people from joining or youths from ever starting.. That my bowhunting friend is ASSININE... not ridiculous... it's Math... The "Exact" science...

Ohio will NOT price themselves out of hunters as you state....non-residents made up approximately 7.6% of the hunters in Ohio....

the more important consequence would be the clientèle of these Outfitters in Ohio would be reduced....thus...the leasing and outfitting business would be reduced...thus the amount of land available to the MAJORITY of hunters would increase...

get it?

really....it is simple...as you say....Math?...Science?



I can honestly understand why residents would want this... To some degree... Ohio has a great deer management program, due in part to the guys that live and hunt there.. As an out of stater (I don't Ohio yet) I applaud the efforts of the DNR and the hunters in that state.. but trying to keep it to yourselves is not really the way you want to represent hunters in your state. What if the state made the license costs the same?? You would probably be calling for someone to be fired... When NR's show up, we pay hotel's, gas, food, etc and supply states with a lot of "extra" $'s to more than cover the time we are actually there in your state.. We take almost nothing from the state tax dollars other than some renewable deer... But it funds a lot of state agencies I'm sure and state projects that rely on tax $'s and revenue generated by "us" showing up and spending out of state $'s. So as an "out of stater", I think we do "pay" to hunt other states enough money already... I would go with the same % increase residents pay if they take an increase as well though... Fair is fair...


Trust me... Born and raised here... I know about the political climate of my state...


once again....you want some facts and not conjecture?

From the ODNR website:


Ohio ranks eighth nationally in annual hunting-related sales and 10th in the number of jobs associated with the hunting-related industry. Each year, hunting has an $859 million economic impact in Ohio through the sale of equipment, fuel, food, lodging, etc.


so let's take those 7.6% NR.....7.6% of $859 million

hmmnn....65.2 million dollars.....am I willing to see that money go by the wayside??

if it means more hunting opportunities [read land availability]....then yes....I would concur...

SELFISH?.....nah....I have bow hunted in Ohio since 1974.......I saw these changes coming 15 years ago....

you think it's gonna get "better" in the future?

FAT CHANCE....and if you think otherwise.....you don't see the BIG PICTURE...

ArchersParadox
December 9th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Why not residents only and $500.00 a licence.


Hey Stanley....don't they do that already in the Hawkeye State??

:wink::wink:

waywardson
December 9th, 2009, 08:01 PM
I will say that I have been surprised to see that a small increase (no more than $25) has not been suggested by the ODNR. Heck, they put increases on most other things/licenses over the past year. I think if they go too high, they will start to lose people. In addition to a lifetime license, Ohio should consider a "native" license. When I head home to La at Christmas, I can buy a "native" license for the same price as a resident...only difference is that mine is only good for 5 days...but I can get as many as I want throughout the year. I do hate having to carry my birth certificate down to get the license though. Overall, state harvest numbers were down from last year by 1000 or so, according the #s just released. Not sure what the cause of the decline was, but I'm sure they will be figuring that out. If they believe it was because of a lack of $ keeping people from coming out, they will likely change it.

2X_LUNG
December 9th, 2009, 08:01 PM
You're losing sight of the revenue that non res hunters bring to the state in other forms. People have to stay somewhere and eat and buy supplies.

They bring most their food with them and camp in a camper or someone else's house(buddy, relative,etc.).....the revenue isn't much of a factor......however, there is some....i understand that.

pscm
December 9th, 2009, 08:03 PM
I have read all comments and can't resist my 2 cents. I am originally an Iowan.
20 years ago even as a resident, one had to submit for a draw for gun season. I maybe wrong though I think it is still that way though maybe it is for antlerless tag. Doesn't really matter as the point I am trying to make is if the numbers are indeed down then it is up to both Residents and NR's to send there voice to the state reps so that systems are put in place to better control the population even if that means limiting residents. It has been proven that deer populations recover quite quickly if not degraded to far. There are many opinions to how to control the population though it really boils down to how many number of tags issued and the size of antlered deer taken. Now living in Maine I often hear people say if it's brown it's down. This mentality has got to change by everyone . Whatever happened to hunting for the joy of being in the outdoors. I am no different then anyone else wanting my shot at the rack of a lifetime and have traveled to other states to try though refuse to take anything less than a 3 year old buck. I certainly have been tempted to put meat in the freezer though have re-framed.

Ray.Klefstad
December 9th, 2009, 08:26 PM
So what is the problem you are trying to fix?

It sounds like you just don't like NR hunters and want to get rid of them.

I visited (and bowhunted) Ohio for the first time this past Thanksgiving. I was impressed by Ohio's management as the area is loaded with deer while they allow baiting and crossbows in archery season with extremely generous limits. In fact, the area I hunted is overpopulated with antlerless deer.

If the goal is to improve the herd, then making the rules apply to residents will have much greater impact. As you stated yourself, only 8% of the hunters are no-residents. I really like the one-buck rule. I can't understand why anyone would waste that one tag on a 4 point buck - unless it was their first buck. I would rather eat that tag than shoot something small as I'm sure many other bowhunters would.

Doesn't it make more sense to limit gun hunters? I bet they injure and kill far more bucks than anything.

By the way, my state, California, is infested with folks who have moved here from Ohio. We don't treat them any different than natives and they can take advantage of our beaches, beautiful weather, and high state taxes (that we all pay).

Ray

x-finder
December 9th, 2009, 08:52 PM
do you guys read the Ohio Outdoor News? Great article in there on this subject this month.

Non-residents created $4 million dollars revenue from hunting last year. 4 people from EVERY SINGLE state in the US hunted Ohio.Along with 7 other countries:eek:

They said they will not raise the fees on NR's anytime soon.They stated hunting itself was taking a real beating with the younger generations not stepping up, so they are afraid it would back frie on them by raising the fees.

Also good to note, 66% of non-residents harvested a DOE.:wink:not a buck I donated $174 and did not shoot any yet. I live 15 min from the OH line and eat there and buy gas there every time I go over. Still have a good time and met some nice local hunters that seem to be helpful.

BMAN007
December 9th, 2009, 08:55 PM
that has been rooted out of farms that out of staters come in on and spend money to lease what i could hunt for free with family and relatives for years,im sick of deer hunting in ohio with all the "BIG BUCK" talk am sick of ohio being the cheapest to hunt for out of staters,we need to charge them what they would charge us to hunt see how they like it

also am COMPLETELY sick of fellow ohio hunters that think they are the newest and best outfitter under the sun!

we as fellow ohio hunters have managed our herd for years to get to where we are now,and now everytime i turn around joe blow has a new outfitter sign up.we as fellow ohio hunters have become rich in our own right in what we have here for a whitetail herd and now everyone wants to come here and hunt and these outfitters that are popping up everywhere are charging big $ to get rich of of what we have helped to get them "BIG BUCKS"!

i just think the odnr needs to wake up before its too late and our whole thing we us fellow hunters have helped them do,provide good deer numbers for them themselves to get rich off of!

Grizz1219
December 10th, 2009, 06:42 AM
Personally... I think this topic is just one for argument sake... How raising the fee's on NR's some how makes it better for Resident's is beyond me.. I think states come after us/hunters because we are in a minority.. A mostly silent minority unfortunately.. I think lowering the # of doe permits would help the herd if that is the complaint here.. but I'm thinking it is more than that... sounds as if some residents think by raising NR fees.. it will "save" some bucks for them... I think a lot of NR's would still pay that but would shoot and fill EVERY tag he/she gets to make up for the $'s he/she is paying out there by lowering the quality of the deer herd... Maybe I am wrong.. But to be honest... this post doesn't seem like it held water so to speak from the beginning.. most were against it.. I will admit most here posting were NR's.. But still think we do better standing together than trying to be islands.. We don't get to make the rules or even influence them so it was fun while it lasted... next topic please...

G3's
December 10th, 2009, 07:15 AM
I may have painted with too broad a stroke there...

There are many NR who are an asset to have in state. I should have been more aware of that. Too many people do the same thing with the Amish because there's a few slobs out there. so i'll retract that part.

I'm not for a ridiculous price like $500 for a tag, but $24 for a tag and $150 for a license is pretty darn good for a midwestern state dont ya think? I think our DNR has done a great job making this state the place that it is. I just think they should be paid accordingly. Theres no reason why you should be able to hunt Ohio and WV at roughly the same price. They are not in the same ballpark as far as quality hunting.

Why then should people pay the same to hunt Ohio as Illinois and Iowa, surely Ohio has some monster deer but not in the same ballpark as either of those state. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? Seriously, a price increase will hurt you state from less tag sales, less clients for the outfitters, less people buying from your local stores, ect... Ask Iows about Tag increases, they put off a scheduled increase this year and still had tags left over, There were and probably still are outfitters trying to sell tags for Iowa hunting for this season. Be careful what you wish for....it could be a lot worse than first thought.

hdracer
December 10th, 2009, 08:01 AM
A lot of interesting arguments on both sides. But my take is this: keep raising the prices and the numbers of hunters (old & new) will drop. Eventually it will become only a "rich man's" game, and DNR funding will dry up. It's slowly headed that way now. I hunt OH and travel to WV for 1-2 weeks a year. For 3 years running I have blanked in WV - $160+ yr X 3 -- but I keep going back because of the friends I hunt with. The WV NR fees are not too bad but if OH jacks their rates up what will stop WV from reciprocating? I understand the need for state DNRs to protect their resources and I think that for the most part they are doing a good job with the limited funding they have. But a knee jerk reaction of raising all NR fees to a level that most people can't reach is not a good answer. We've already seen this with the spiraling lease costs. Landowners are being offered huge sums of money for lease rights by TV shows and "professional hunters", cutting off the locals from the lands they have hunted. (I know -- "money talks & BS walks").

I believe that each state should be able to set individual NR fees based on the home state of the NR hunter. If IL or IA charges an OH resident $500 for a license, then OH should charge IL or IA residents $500. But with the ways that some hunters circumvent the current hunting rules that may be hard implement, though. Fake DL's or state ID's already run rampant. And how is a mom & pop store going to be able to verify a hunter's home state? Maybe having all NR licenses sold only from the DNR website via credit card would fix that problem.

It's a very interesting and emotional topic. I just hope we still have hunting available 10-20 years from now...:darkbeer:

AmishArcher
December 10th, 2009, 08:31 AM
[/SIZE][/B]

Why then should people pay the same to hunt Ohio as Illinois and Iowa, surely Ohio has some monster deer but not in the same ballpark as either of those state. Sounds pretty ridiculous doesn't it? Seriously, a price increase will hurt you state from less tag sales, less clients for the outfitters, less people buying from your local stores, ect... Ask Iows about Tag increases, they put off a scheduled increase this year and still had tags left over, There were and probably still are outfitters trying to sell tags for Iowa hunting for this season. Be careful what you wish for....it could be a lot worse than first thought.

Ohio may not be Iowa or Illinois, but its not as far off as everyone thinks... I'd say we're in the top 5 or so in the nation. Take a look at the bucks that have the hunter's names with them. Ohio is right up there. Beatty buck, Jordan buck, Shumaker Buck, etc. Just a thought. I'll take my chances in ohio.


As for tag increases, there's a break even point. For instance, just using random numbers, if NR tags were $25 and they sold 50, thatd be a revenue of $1250. But if they make tags $40 they'd only have to sell 32 to bring in the same revenue, have less hunters in the state, itd take less manpower to police those areas etc... Revenue the same, $ spent to get that revenue, down. That's the point i was getting at. Don't banish them all by any means, however, it seems to me we're selling a top notch hunting experience at an amazing discount. That may just be my perception.

shamlin
December 10th, 2009, 08:54 AM
do you guys read the Ohio Outdoor News? Great article in there on this subject this month.

Non-residents created $4 million dollars revenue from hunting last year. 4 people from EVERY SINGLE state in the US hunted Ohio.Along with 7 other countries:eek:

They said they will not raise the fees on NR's anytime soon.They stated hunting itself was taking a real beating with the younger generations not stepping up, so they are afraid it would back frie on them by raising the fees.

Also good to note, 66% of non-residents harvested a DOE.:wink:not a buck

Heck yea, when I spend the amount of money to hunt there you can bet I am gonna take some meat home. 2 of the 3 deer my family killed this year were doe.

PAstringking
December 10th, 2009, 09:00 AM
can any of you Ohio residents post any true facts about the amount of non-resident hunters that intrude on your land??

how about how many are successful?

how much does the non-resident spend on a typical hunt in your state??

how much money, on average, do local farmers gain from out of state leases??

what do you get with your non-resident tag? cost per deer

if ODNR uses a lottery system, like Iowa, how much of that private ground will become leased by local outfitters anyway?



i have my opinion on this subject...but it doesnt really matter. i would like some one to simply answer these questions with proof. then we can start a legitimate debate :darkbeer::zip:

mjbrady
December 10th, 2009, 09:01 AM
Ohio may not be Iowa or Illinois, but its not as far off as everyone thinks... I'd say we're in the top 5 or so in the nation. Take a look at the bucks that have the hunter's names with them. Ohio is right up there. Beatty buck, Jordan buck, Shumaker Buck, etc. Just a thought. I'll take my chances in ohio.


As for tag increases, there's a break even point. For instance, just using random numbers, if NR tags were $25 and they sold 50, thatd be a revenue of $1250. But if they make tags $40 they'd only have to sell 32 to bring in the same revenue, have less hunters in the state, itd take less manpower to police those areas etc... Revenue the same, $ spent to get that revenue, down. That's the point i was getting at. Don't banish them all by any means, however, it seems to me we're selling a top notch hunting experience at an amazing discount. That may just be my perception.

AmishArcher,
I agree with your math totally and the logic you used to come up with it. But in IMO the tag value is only a small % of what NR bring in revenue to your state. Hotel, rest., gas, grocery store etc... If we were to limit the # of NR's to attend our beaches and charged you more for the right to even use the beach would that be the result you would looking for. If in fact you have never attended a NC beach, it is packed with just as many NR as residents and is not such a small % of the total as us NR are to the OH hunting population. Maybe instead of limiting NR you residents should be more worried about areas many of the posters say have less than average herd numbers. Send those emails and phone calls has the OP suggested, but try and get things in your area headed back in the right direction for herd management. The amount of the license will only drive the rich in just ask the guys in Pike Co. many cant even find a place to hunt at all. Good luck!

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 09:07 AM
that has been rooted out of farms that out of staters come in on and spend money to lease what i could hunt for free with family and relatives for years,im sick of deer hunting in ohio with all the "BIG BUCK" talk am sick of ohio being the cheapest to hunt for out of staters,we need to charge them what they would charge us to hunt see how they like it

also am COMPLETELY sick of fellow ohio hunters that think they are the newest and best outfitter under the sun!

we as fellow ohio hunters have managed our herd for years to get to where we are now,and now everytime i turn around joe blow has a new outfitter sign up.we as fellow ohio hunters have become rich in our own right in what we have here for a whitetail herd and now everyone wants to come here and hunt and these outfitters that are popping up everywhere are charging big $ to get rich of of what we have helped to get them "BIG BUCKS"!

i just think the odnr needs to wake up before its too late and our whole thing we us fellow hunters have helped them do,provide good deer numbers for them themselves to get rich off of!


This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. First of all you clearly state the you are upset that the landowners are leasing land that you hunted for free. Maybe if your residents helped out your landowners instead of freeloaded off of them for years they wouldn't be leasing their land to out of state hunters. Why blame the out of staters, and not blame your landowners. How dare the Ohio landowners lease the ground that they own and help subsidize their taxes and other expenses. Second, I don't think that being a NR hunter is a pre-requisite to lease land. Last I heard, you could buck up and lease land just like I can.

Secondly I agree that you should charge me what my state charges you to hunt. PA charges 101.50 for a NR license (approx I think) so you would be saving me money. Thanks.

Next, why hate Outfitters. This is America and last I heard it is a free market to make a living however one chooses. So you are upset that an outfitter has taken some of the ground that you hunted for free. That's life. Once again buck up and help the landowners out instead of freeloading.

Last, don't give me this crap that it is a rich man's game. I am working class just like most guys on here. I save my money and get some guys whom i trust to help me out and we lease our ground and respect our landowner and his property. As a matter of fact the reason he finally decided to lease it was because of all of the local RESIDENTS shooting anything that moves and trashing his ground.

I am not trying to start an arguement but felt I had to respond to this. You guys in OHIO have an awesome resource in your deer herd and I totally understand being protective of that. If you feel too many deer are being killed than you need to police yourselves first as it is residents who kill the vast majority of the deer. Eliminating NR hunters won't solve that problem. As for elimating leasing. I know a lot of Farmers and landowners in Ohio who would not be very happy about this. As I said earlier quit whining and buck up and lease some land. Very few things in this life are free anymore.

AmishArcher
December 10th, 2009, 09:14 AM
This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read.

there are extremes on both sides of the aisle... if i remember correcty, BMANN lost a number of properties to NR leasers this year. I think i read it in another post. May be wrong though. So He probably has a little bit of an ax to grind with NR and would like them all kicked out.

I'm trying to be in the middle of the road. And yes, NR do bring in much more than their tag costs alone, i'll agree with you there.

But I guess my thinking is, I'd like Ohio to be the Hilton of hunting (higher quality, but probably higher cost, but still worth it) than the Motel 6. You attract better hunters if they're going to have to plunk down more green to come here. There's definitely a middle road somewhere here. I feel that Ohio is offering a Hilton experience at a Motel 6 price

PAstringking
December 10th, 2009, 09:17 AM
This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. First of all you clearly state the you are upset that the landowners are leasing land that you hunted for free. Maybe if your residents helped out your landowners instead of freeloaded off of them for years they wouldn't be leasing their land to out of state hunters. Why blame the out of staters, and not blame your landowners. How dare the Ohio landowners lease the ground that they own and help subsidize their taxes and other expenses. Second, I don't think that being a NR hunter is a pre-requisite to lease land. Last I heard, you could buck up and lease land just like I can.

Secondly I agree that you should charge me what my state charges you to hunt. PA charges 101.50 for a NR license (approx I think) so you would be saving me money. Thanks.

Next, why hate Outfitters. This is America and last I heard it is a free market to make a living however one chooses. So you are upset that an outfitter has taken some of the ground that you hunted for free. That's life. Once again buck up and help the landowners out instead of freeloading.

Last, don't give me this crap that it is a rich man's game. I am working class just like most guys on here. I save my money and get some guys whom i trust to help me out and we lease our ground and respect our landowner and his property. As a matter of fact the reason he finally decided to lease it was because of all of the local RESIDENTS shooting anything that moves and trashing his ground.

I am not trying to start an arguement but felt I had to respond to this. You guys in OHIO have an awesome resource in your deer herd and I totally understand being protective of that. If you feel too many deer are being killed than you need to police yourselves first as it is residents who kill the vast majority of the deer. Eliminating NR hunters won't solve that problem. As for elimating leasing. I know a lot of Farmers and landowners in Ohio who would not be very happy about this. As I said earlier quit whining and buck up and lease some land. Very few things in this life are free anymore.

:thumbs_up

FrankinLaurelmt
December 10th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I think that's a great idea...stop all NR hunting and charge the locals $500.00 each...wonder how many of them would then think hunting is all that in OHIO..hopefully they'll also pick up the $10'000.00's of dollars Ohio farmers pick up every year from outfitters, leasee's and renters..I don't think you realize how much cash is dropped in Ohio every year by non-residents.. myself it's at least $2000.00 without much of a problem and more like $3000 if I add in food, entertainment and beer..I think the idea of reciprocity sounds best... also, if your going to raise it, have a seperate turkey only license, you can keep your deer, they don't taste any different than ours and your public land hunting has gotten about as bad as ours anyway...Don't forget about all the nights in the state lodges and dinners, breakfasts and lunches you'll all need to eat and book so the state makes out also...GOOD LUCK convincing your farm organizations that they don't need the money some of these mega farms are getting for hunting rights...AFTERALL it's OHIO-IANS that have advertised, bragged all over the internet on message boards, have tons of outdoos shows videoed in state for the outdoor channels each year..about how you have all these mega deer..it's Ohioians that want to be thought of in the same circles as Iowa and Illinois, the mega whitetail state, OHIOIANS have made it the business that's it's become... let's air it all if it's going to get aired!!!

Grizz1219
December 10th, 2009, 09:21 AM
You attract better hunters if they're going to have to plunk down more green to come here. There's definitely a middle road somewhere here. I feel that Ohio is offering a Hilton experience at a Motel 6 price

Not to start trouble but... "Oh no you just didn't!"..

Money doesn't make a guy/girl a better hunter... I'm sure you din't mean it to come out that way though... :wink:

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 11:09 AM
There is no 100% right answer to this problem. I find it funny though that most of the responses here are by NR's who are trying to compare apples to oranges. ...comparing a deer herd that can be decimated very easily if mismanaged to a beach??? come, on! How many people are loading up the bed of their truck with the sands of your beaches. GET REAL! I see a lot of the PA guys talking about the leasing thing. How would you feel if our situation was reversed? What if Ohio destroyed the hunting opportunities like your state has and Pa was a big buck state? What if we were leasing you out of hunting oppotunities in your home state? How would you feel then? I'm not saying we should get rid of NR hunters and I'm not saying we should gouge them for ridiculous fees. What I am saying is there needs to be some restraint and a common ground so that EVERYONE can enjoy a quality herd and a quality hunting experience. As for the money brought into Ohio, Once again I will pose this question... Who spends more in Ohio every year, residents who are here all year and are taxed to death or the NR's who are here a couple weeks a year. I find it funny that people always use the money given to landowners for taxes or for restaraunts, hotels, etc to justify the leasing. First we will deal with taxes... every landowner in Ohio is taxed to death not just farmers and farmers get more tax breeaks than any blue collar job guy anyway. The DNR gets more money from residents than it will EVER get from NR's. Next we will deal with restaraunts and hotels... do you think we don't eat out in Ohio on a regular basis? Do you think we don't stay in motels/hotels when we travel throughout our own state. I guarantee you I spend more money in motels in my 8 month working season travelling through Ohio than any single NR hunter that comes to Ohio and that's just for work. THat's not counting all the trips I make to Cleveland for my kid to see the Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic. So yes, we Ohioans do appreciate the money you spend to stimulate our economy, but no, you will not sink us if you decide to stop coming. You are not the be all end all in the hunting world.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 11:29 AM
There is no 100% right answer to this problem. I find it funny though that most of the responses here are by NR's who are trying to compare apples to oranges. ...comparing a deer herd that can be decimated very easily if mismanaged to a beach??? come, on! How many people are loading up the bed of their truck with the sands of your beaches. GET REAL! I see a lot of the PA guys talking about the leasing thing. How would you feel if our situation was reversed? What if Ohio destroyed the hunting opportunities like your state has and Pa was a big buck state? What if we were leasing you out of hunting oppotunities in your home state? How would you feel then? I'm not saying we should get rid of NR hunters and I'm not saying we should gouge them for ridiculous fees. What I am saying is there needs to be some restraint and a common ground so that EVERYONE can enjoy a quality herd and a quality hunting experience. As for the money brought into Ohio, Once again I will pose this question... Who spends more in Ohio every year, residents who are here all year and are taxed to death or the NR's who are here a couple weeks a year. I find it funny that people always use the money given to landowners for taxes or for restaraunts, hotels, etc to justify the leasing. First we will deal with taxes... every landowner in Ohio is taxed to death not just farmers and farmers get more tax breeaks than any blue collar job guy anyway. The DNR gets more money from residents than it will EVER get from NR's. Next we will deal with restaraunts and hotels... do you think we don't eat out in Ohio on a regular basis? Do you think we don't stay in motels/hotels when we travel throughout our own state. I guarantee you I spend more money in motels in my 8 month working season travelling through Ohio than any single NR hunter that comes to Ohio and that's just for work. THat's not counting all the trips I make to Cleveland for my kid to see the Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic. So yes, we Ohioans do appreciate the money you spend to stimulate our economy, but no, you will not sink us if you decide to stop coming. You are not the be all end all in the hunting world.

Not comparing Apples to Oranges! Just stating facts based on the complaints of a few.

You are correct in that there is no 100% right answer to this. I just take offense to those few who seem to blame NR hunters for all of their problems.

From what I have read you say you are worried about your deer population being decimated. As I stated in my prior post, start policing yourselves. NR hunters don't kill near the # of deer that residents do. Secondly do not blame the dnr for selling too many tags. Tags don't kill deer, Hunters do.

Next there is a lot of complaining about leasing from NR hunters. Last I checked landowners don't care who the $$ comes from. Lease some ground in your own state.

Last, Would I feel bad if a bunch of out of state hunters came in and took my ground. No because it won't happen any time soon. Some friends and I were proactive and have ground leased for long term leases. We have had these leases for about 6 years now. Just because I live in PA doesn't mean I have the right to hunt wherever I want for free.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Last, Would I feel bad if a bunch of out of state hunters came in and took my ground. No because it won't happen any time soon. Some friends and I were proactive and have ground leased for long term leases. We have had these leases for about 6 years now. Just because I live in PA doesn't mean I have the right to hunt wherever I want for free.

yeah, until a NR comes along with a bigger wallet. Then we'll see how your long term lease ends. I'd bet the landowner would find a way out of it, or it won't be renewed at the end of it. $$$ is the name of the game now.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 11:34 AM
for the record I am not trying to start an arguement with my posts.
I think that this has been a pretty informative thread and a good debate on how folks from both sides of the equation feel about these issues in Ohio. Ohio has an awesome resource in the quality of the bucks living there.

Epinepherine
December 10th, 2009, 11:44 AM
This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. First of all you clearly state the you are upset that the landowners are leasing land that you hunted for free. Maybe if your residents helped out your landowners instead of freeloaded off of them for years they wouldn't be leasing their land to out of state hunters. Why blame the out of staters, and not blame your landowners. How dare the Ohio landowners lease the ground that they own and help subsidize their taxes and other expenses. Second, I don't think that being a NR hunter is a pre-requisite to lease land. Last I heard, you could buck up and lease land just like I can.

Secondly I agree that you should charge me what my state charges you to hunt. PA charges 101.50 for a NR license (approx I think) so you would be saving me money. Thanks.

Next, why hate Outfitters. This is America and last I heard it is a free market to make a living however one chooses. So you are upset that an outfitter has taken some of the ground that you hunted for free. That's life. Once again buck up and help the landowners out instead of freeloading.

Last, don't give me this crap that it is a rich man's game. I am working class just like most guys on here. I save my money and get some guys whom i trust to help me out and we lease our ground and respect our landowner and his property. As a matter of fact the reason he finally decided to lease it was because of all of the local RESIDENTS shooting anything that moves and trashing his ground.

I am not trying to start an arguement but felt I had to respond to this. You guys in OHIO have an awesome resource in your deer herd and I totally understand being protective of that. If you feel too many deer are being killed than you need to police yourselves first as it is residents who kill the vast majority of the deer. Eliminating NR hunters won't solve that problem. As for elimating leasing. I know a lot of Farmers and landowners in Ohio who would not be very happy about this. As I said earlier quit whining and buck up and lease some land. Very few things in this life are free anymore.

What a tool.

You got proof Ohioians do not lease land? Or just anecdotal evidence "CUZ I READ IT ON TEH INTERNETZ BY SUM DEWD EN OHIO". I can guarantee you I know of dozens and dozens of hunters (from the GREAT state of Ohio) who lease. People and friends in hunting clubs and organizations, co-workers, and even family. Put your money where your mouth is and show me some digits.

Pt 2. Most Ohioians do not want to hunt your gutted-out state. You people created enough mismanaged problems over there. Yeah, good luck with that historically abysmal antler restriction thing you got rolling. That won't lead to dead freaking deer rotting over your fields - ever. Lol!

Pt 3. You're spun up & upset that Ohioians feel NR's should pay ODW more for the quality hunting here? It's America. We can and will pressure our elected officials to reexplore fees and a draw system that justifies the quality of deer hunting this state produces. "Things aren't free, yano." Cost goes up & you will pay it. Deal with it?

Pt. 4. Here, you finally make some sense. Yes, tags/kill limits in specified zones clearly need to be relooked at it. Period. For residents and NR's alike. The problem is - as with any state - you have those that are passionate about a resource and cultivating it (like people typically found on AT) and those that take it for granted and believe it's an unlimited resource to be manged however they see fit. No state has a monopoly on those types. Anyone looking at PA for instance can see the devastating effect that line of thinking can and obviously does.

Eliminating NR's entirely is what I see coming out of primarily from NR's mouth's here, less from residents. AT hyperbole. The sky is falling!. Most Ohio residents feel NR's should pay a much, much higher premium than the blue-light special the state offers. And that is not limited to AT forums. From the avg hunter to officials in ODNR and, more specifically, ODW. And I agree. You want a quality product, you'd better be willing to pay a quality price.

Like you said, it's America. Buck up and pay.

Gary in Ohio
December 10th, 2009, 11:54 AM
Personally, I think the other states should stop screwing up their deer management. Then the NR wouldn't have to waste all that money coming here to hunt.

Honestly the Ohio formula is not rocket science:
- Move the gun season out of the rut.
- Only allow 1 buck per season.
- Have a long archery season so people can hunt without crowds.
- Allow crossbows so anyone can hunt archery.
- Set the bag limit for does at what makes sense for the zone.
- Organize zones by county. Counties can be moved to higher or lower bag limit zones as needed.
- Open urban zones where needed.
- If a week of gun hunting isn't enough, don't make it longer. The deer will just go nocturnal. Add a second short season.
- Keep the tag costs reasonable.

I've read the regs some of the states that are talked about a lot. Some of them are pretty stupid and should be changed. It would break up traditions and people would pitch a fit. But their hunting would be better off in the long run.

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 12:02 PM
Personally, I think the other states should stop screwing up their deer management. Then the NR wouldn't have to waste all that money coming here to hunt.

Honestly the Ohio formula is not rocket science:
- Move the gun season out of the rut.
- Only allow 1 buck per season.
- Have a long archery season so people can hunt without crowds.
- Allow crossbows so anyone can hunt archery.
- Set the bag limit for does at what makes sense for the zone.
- Organize zones by county. Counties can be moved to higher or lower bag limit zones as needed.
- Open urban zones where needed.
- If a week of gun hunting isn't enough, don't make it longer. The deer will just go nocturnal. Add a second short season.
- Keep the tag costs reasonable.

I've read the regs some of the states that are talked about a lot. Some of them are pretty stupid and should be changed. It would break up traditions and people would pitch a fit. But their hunting would be better off in the long run.Great post.

Run the DNR based on science, biology, and need; budget as required to meet those needs. Pretty simple.

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:07 PM
This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. First of all you clearly state the you are upset that the landowners are leasing land that you hunted for free. Maybe if your residents helped out your landowners instead of freeloaded off of them for years they wouldn't be leasing their land to out of state hunters. Why blame the out of staters, and not blame your landowners. How dare the Ohio landowners lease the ground that they own and help subsidize their taxes and other expenses. Second, I don't think that being a NR hunter is a pre-requisite to lease land. Last I heard, you could buck up and lease land just like I can.

Secondly I agree that you should charge me what my state charges you to hunt. PA charges 101.50 for a NR license (approx I think) so you would be saving me money. Thanks.

Next, why hate Outfitters. This is America and last I heard it is a free market to make a living however one chooses. So you are upset that an outfitter has taken some of the ground that you hunted for free. That's life. Once again buck up and help the landowners out instead of freeloading.

Last, don't give me this crap that it is a rich man's game. I am working class just like most guys on here. I save my money and get some guys whom i trust to help me out and we lease our ground and respect our landowner and his property. As a matter of fact the reason he finally decided to lease it was because of all of the local RESIDENTS shooting anything that moves and trashing his ground.

I am not trying to start an arguement but felt I had to respond to this. You guys in OHIO have an awesome resource in your deer herd and I totally understand being protective of that. If you feel too many deer are being killed than you need to police yourselves first as it is residents who kill the vast majority of the deer. Eliminating NR hunters won't solve that problem. As for elimating leasing. I know a lot of Farmers and landowners in Ohio who would not be very happy about this. As I said earlier quit whining and buck up and lease some land. Very few things in this life are free anymore.


yeah..that's it...as Glenn Beck would say.....

any Ohio resident hunter who DOES NOT pay for a lease is a free-loading SOB...

...listen pal....it's guys like you and your partners who come into this fine state....first claim to be a working class guy....then flash a farmer your $1,000's of dollars to have EXCLUSIVE rights to that farmer's property....

...you preach about the farmer's can no longer NOT afford to NOT have guy's like you and their money..

well hell yes....flash a common farmer in Ohio that kind of Jack..what do you think they will do??


so...your point now is that it is NOT a rich's mans game...you just contradicted yourself...


like Epinephrine said.....how would you feel if Ohio hunters leased up all of your land...well you re-iterate that you have long-term leases on those lands as well in Pennsylvania....sounds to me like you are more than a common average Joe....


like I said previously.....it's guys like you that are ruining it for the locals.....leasing up all of the "free" land that year's ago was open to any honest Joe bow hunter...

.....I have bow hunted in Ohio since 1974.....the farms I had hunted on and currently hunt on is by the HONOR system...the farmers know me...I have helped them without question when they needed help...

...most of these farms I "share" with other hunters...we all know each other for the most part....if somebody's cousin or nephew wants to hunt they do...

....you guys that have STRICT leases have one common theme...


PRICE the average Joe out of their hunting opportunities..

...plain and simple.....


if you don't agree with me...then why are you paying someone $1,000's of dollars a year for the EXCLUSIVE opportunity to hunt??

AdvanTimberLou
December 10th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Personally, I think the other states should stop screwing up their deer management. Then the NR wouldn't have to waste all that money coming here to hunt.

Honestly the Ohio formula is not rocket science:
- Move the gun season out of the rut.
- Only allow 1 buck per season.
- Have a long archery season so people can hunt without crowds.
- Allow crossbows so anyone can hunt archery.
- Set the bag limit for does at what makes sense for the zone.
- Organize zones by county. Counties can be moved to higher or lower bag limit zones as needed.
- Open urban zones where needed.
- If a week of gun hunting isn't enough, don't make it longer. The deer will just go nocturnal. Add a second short season.
- Keep the tag costs reasonable.

I've read the regs some of the states that are talked about a lot. Some of them are pretty stupid and should be changed. It would break up traditions and people would pitch a fit. But their hunting would be better off in the long run.

One of the best posts in this thread, you are 100% right Gary.

kenman421
December 10th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Look at it this way, all the residents thats saying raise it to 500 bucks can pick up the slack when all the NR are taking their money to another state to hunt. As for the NR saying leave it alone, hope you all like making friends when NR hunters all head to Ohio looking for that bargain hunt for a whitetail buck as everybody should be able to carry on small talk with the person sitting in a tree right next to you. Ohio is a bargain right now and alot of people are probably looking at that state to hunt with all the brutes being taken from there, but at the same time, i think 500 bucks is a little to much to ask for.

PAstringking
December 10th, 2009, 12:09 PM
There is no 100% right answer to this problem. I find it funny though that most of the responses here are by NR's who are trying to compare apples to oranges. ...comparing a deer herd that can be decimated very easily if mismanaged to a beach??? come, on! How many people are loading up the bed of their truck with the sands of your beaches. GET REAL! I see a lot of the PA guys talking about the leasing thing. How would you feel if our situation was reversed? What if Ohio destroyed the hunting opportunities like your state has and Pa was a big buck state? What if we were leasing you out of hunting oppotunities in your home state? How would you feel then? I'm not saying we should get rid of NR hunters and I'm not saying we should gouge them for ridiculous fees. What I am saying is there needs to be some restraint and a common ground so that EVERYONE can enjoy a quality herd and a quality hunting experience. As for the money brought into Ohio, Once again I will pose this question... Who spends more in Ohio every year, residents who are here all year and are taxed to death or the NR's who are here a couple weeks a year. I find it funny that people always use the money given to landowners for taxes or for restaraunts, hotels, etc to justify the leasing. First we will deal with taxes... every landowner in Ohio is taxed to death not just farmers and farmers get more tax breeaks than any blue collar job guy anyway. The DNR gets more money from residents than it will EVER get from NR's. Next we will deal with restaraunts and hotels... do you think we don't eat out in Ohio on a regular basis? Do you think we don't stay in motels/hotels when we travel throughout our own state. I guarantee you I spend more money in motels in my 8 month working season travelling through Ohio than any single NR hunter that comes to Ohio and that's just for work. THat's not counting all the trips I make to Cleveland for my kid to see the Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic. So yes, we Ohioans do appreciate the money you spend to stimulate our economy, but no, you will not sink us if you decide to stop coming. You are not the be all end all in the hunting world.

again....please will one of you give some hard evidence that NR hunters are destroying your deer herd.

and about the taxes...common....everyone pays taxes. come live in Bucks County PA when you 2 bedroom apartment has property taxes of $3100 a year and doesnt include trash, snow removal, sewage, water, ect.

yes residents help out local businesses...but i doubt the Motel down the road relies on residents for the majority of their business.




all of us horrible non-resident hunters understand what you are going through...but your justification isnt there. if you could prove that non-resident hunters had a very bad effect on either your economy, deer herd, or public land....then we can talk. :darkbeer:

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 12:12 PM
..
.....I have bow hunted in Ohio since 1974.....the farms I had hunted on and currently hunt on is by the HONOR system...the farmers know me...I have helped them without question when they needed help...

...most of these farms I "share" with other hunters...we all know each other for the most part....if somebody's cousin or nephew wants to hunt they do...


So, residents do have places to hunt....why are you trying to exclude NRs?

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 12:14 PM
for the record I am not trying to start an arguement with my posts.
I think that this has been a pretty informative thread and a good debate on how folks from both sides of the equation feel about these issues in Ohio. Ohio has an awesome resource in the quality of the bucks living there.

Likewise, I am not trying to start an argument, just a healthy debate to help people understand both points of view. I enjoy having some NR here hunting. I know several of them. But, like everything else moderation is the key. The ODNR needs to stop thinking about the largest amount of money and starting thinking about the quality of the herd. They have done a great job leading up to this point, but there is trouble on the horizon and they need to deal with it now rather than later.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 12:14 PM
What a tool.

You got proof Ohioians do not lease land? Or just anecdotal evidence "CUZ I READ IT ON TEH INTERNETZ BY SUM DEWD EN OHIO". I can guarantee you I know of dozens and dozens of hunters (from the GREAT state of Ohio) who lease. People and friends in hunting clubs and organizations, co-workers, and even family. Put your money where your mouth is and show me some digits.

Pt 2. Most Ohioians do not want to hunt your gutted-out state. You people created enough mismanaged problems over there. Yeah, good luck with that historically abysmal antler restriction thing you got rolling. That won't lead to dead freaking deer rotting over your fields - ever. Lol!

Pt 3. You're spun up & upset that Ohioians feel NR's should pay ODW more for the quality hunting here? It's America. We can and will pressure our elected officials to reexplore fees and a draw system that justifies the quality of deer hunting this state produces. "Things aren't free, yano." Cost goes up & you will pay it. Deal with it?

Pt. 4. Here, you finally make some sense. Yes, tags/kill limits in specified zones clearly need to be relooked at it. Period. For residents and NR's alike. The problem is - as with any state - you have those that are passionate about a resource and cultivating it (like people typically found on AT) and those that take it for granted and believe it's an unlimited resource to be manged however they see fit. No state has a monopoly on those types. Anyone looking at PA for instance can see the devastating effect that line of thinking can and obviously does.

Eliminating NR's entirely is what I see coming out of primarily from NR's mouth's here, less from residents. AT hyperbole. The sky is falling!. Most Ohio residents feel NR's should pay a much, much higher premium than the blue-light special the state offers. And that is not limited to AT forums. From the avg hunter to officials in ODNR and, more specifically, ODW. And I agree. You want a quality product, you'd better be willing to pay a quality price.

Like you said, it's America. Buck up and pay.


Looks like I touched a nerve. No need to resort to name calling like a 5 year old.

As far as your comment about not wanting to hunt my gutted out state. Fine. That was a pretty stupid comment considering we are not talking about my state. As for antler restrictions, they are working but thats another debate for another time.

Concerning me saying Ohioans don't lease land. I never said that. I however assume the few on here whining about losing their free land don't have leases. I also know many Ohio residents who lease and manage land. Matter of fact I am partners with a few in a club we have. They are great guys who have been pro-active in leasing land before they lost it. They didn't wait for a non-resident to come lease it first and then cry about how non resident hunters are ruining their state.

Last I never said that I wouldn't be willing to pay more. Just not $500 like you proposed in your other thread. I would like you to answer what that would accomplish. What are YOUR specific reasons for proposing this? I am not being smart. I am very curious

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Likewise, I am not trying to start an argument, just a healthy debate to help people understand both points of view. I enjoy having some NR here hunting. I know several of them. But, like everything else moderation is the key. The ODNR needs to stop thinking about the largest amount of money and starting thinking about the quality of the herd. They have done a great job leading up to this point, but there is trouble on the horizon and they need to deal with it now rather than later.

I agree. PA did the same thing by advocating the slaughter of all the does and really hurt the herd.

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:21 PM
...I speak for a lot of fellow Ohio bow hunters.....I may not know everything but what I know is from experience...not read from some magazine...not read from some blog on the internet....not read on some talk forum on the internet...


....some of the younger guys may find this hard to believe....but a short 15 years ago in Ohio......I and several of my bow hunting friends could travel within a 25 mile radius of where we live....have access to several farms with acreage totaling in the 1,000's and bow hunt un-molested..


....in the past 15 years.....with the advent of the internet....hunting shows....publicity from the size of Ohio bucks.....etc...Ohio is now becoming the new "Iowa, Illinois, or Kansas"....


the people who have posted NEGATIVELY on this thread are the very same people that have ruined it for us local bow hunters....

how many local Ohio bow hunters have come on this thread and said..hell NO....we love NR hunters....


ZERO....



so.....what are the solutions?....well as Epinephrine has said..contact your local ODNR office....contact the DOW as well...


.....ask any common Joe bowhunter from Kansas, Illinois, or Iowa.....see how they feel??


..they are just setting back shaking their heads..thinking "we told you so...."


I may be on the extreme end as far as my beliefs on the outfitters and their clientèle....

...BUT, I challenge you this......when your property next year gets leased up by some outfitter or NR.....you'll think twice about what should and should not be done....

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 12:22 PM
So, residents do have places to hunt....why are you trying to exclude NRs?

I don't want anyone excluded! I just want things more moderate. We don't need tons and tons of NR's, nor do we need to charge $500 to the ones who do come here. There needs to be a common sense approach used. We surely don't need the incredibly liberal bag limits we are seeing in zone C.

PAstringking
December 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Personally, I think the other states should stop screwing up their deer management. Then the NR wouldn't have to waste all that money coming here to hunt.

Honestly the Ohio formula is not rocket science:
- Move the gun season out of the rut.
- Only allow 1 buck per season.
- Have a long archery season so people can hunt without crowds.
- Allow crossbows so anyone can hunt archery.
- Set the bag limit for does at what makes sense for the zone.
- Organize zones by county. Counties can be moved to higher or lower bag limit zones as needed.
- Open urban zones where needed.
- If a week of gun hunting isn't enough, don't make it longer. The deer will just go nocturnal. Add a second short season.
- Keep the tag costs reasonable.

I've read the regs some of the states that are talked about a lot. Some of them are pretty stupid and should be changed. It would break up traditions and people would pitch a fit. But their hunting would be better off in the long run.

this is a great post. i wish its was that easy. politics play a huge role in deer management...and i dont mean insurance companies and stupid rumors like that.

people dont just hunt Ohio because its cheap or easy. that does help though. look at guys from Iowa or Kansas that come to Ohio to hunt. they live in great buck states...but come to Ohio for the adventure of a new hunting experience. maybe im wrong :confused:

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:29 PM
So, residents do have places to hunt....why are you trying to exclude NRs?


...trying to exclude them indirectly Bob....you come from Colorado.....in your fine state...farms/ranches aren't measured in 100's of acres..they are probably measured in 1,000's of acres...

big difference.....in Ohio....the average family farm is probably closer to 100 - 300 acres....we have NR's leasing land for $$_____per acre....


so now....common Joes like me...who do not have $$_____per acre....are what?


I have "heard" of some guys paying $5,000 per year per man with a 4 man minimum per farm...

SOL?

yup....plain and simple SOL?

$20,000....where in the heck am I gonna come up with $20,000??

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 12:31 PM
One thing I want to address here is a common misconception that goes unnoticed here quite a bit...

I have read several times by the people who advocate leasing that Ohioans are pissed about losing the land that they "freeloaded" on. I can agree that that is sometimes the case, but I can assure you that is not the case in a lot of instances. I know very many guys like myself who have for years, given of their time and labor to the landowners in return for permission to hunt. It is devasting to spend years building a relationship with a landowner spending you free time working their land and helping them out, only to lose that permission when a NR stops by flashing $100 bills. What, was my back breaking labor not worth anything? Did the landowner not reap any financial benefits from the work I did? Maybe this will clarify the reasoning some, like myself, are not pleased with the leasing trend. I could have spent that time with my family, but I spent it helping the landowner... did I not deserve the hunting permission in return for that work? I sure wasn't getting a paycheck for it.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 12:34 PM
yeah..that's it...as Glenn Beck would say.....

any Ohio resident hunter who DOES NOT pay for a lease is a free-loading SOB...

...listen pal....it's guys like you and your partners who come into this fine state....first claim to be a working class guy....then flash a farmer your $1,000's of dollars to have EXCLUSIVE rights to that farmer's property....

...you preach about the farmer's can no longer NOT afford to NOT have guy's like you and their money..

well hell yes....flash a common farmer in Ohio that kind of Jack..what do you think they will do??


so...your point now is that it is NOT a rich's mans game...you just contradicted yourself...


like Epinephrine said.....how would you feel if Ohio hunters leased up all of your land...well you re-iterate that you have long-term leases on those lands as well in Pennsylvania....sounds to me like you are more than a common average Joe....


like I said previously.....it's guys like you that are ruining it for the locals.....leasing up all of the "free" land that year's ago was open to any honest Joe bow hunter...

.....I have bow hunted in Ohio since 1974.....the farms I had hunted on and currently hunt on is by the HONOR system...the farmers know me...I have helped them without question when they needed help...

...most of these farms I "share" with other hunters...we all know each other for the most part....if somebody's cousin or nephew wants to hunt they do...

....you guys that have STRICT leases have one common theme...


PRICE the average Joe out of their hunting opportunities..

...plain and simple.....


if you don't agree with me...then why are you paying someone $1,000's of dollars a year for the EXCLUSIVE opportunity to hunt??


Last I checked you didn't have to be a rich guy to get a few guys together and form a club to lease some ground. Lease can cost thousands. I agree with that. But when you get a few guys together and split it, it cost hundreds. By the way, my partners are Ohio residents. Do you want to raise thier license fees to $500 also.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 12:34 PM
people dont just hunt Ohio because its cheap or easy. that does help though. look at guys from Iowa or Kansas that come to Ohio to hunt. they live in great buck states...but come to Ohio for the adventure of a new hunting experience. maybe im wrong :confused:

They come here so they can shoot another buck that year for an incredibly low price. Show me any other state with the quality bucks that we have for a price like we offer. As stated before by someone else, we are the blue light special of big bucks.

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Looks like I touched a nerve. No need to resort to name calling like a 5 year old.

As far as your comment about not wanting to hunt my gutted out state. Fine. That was a pretty stupid comment considering we are not talking about my state. As for antler restrictions, they are working but thats another debate for another time.

Concerning me saying Ohioans don't lease land. I never said that. I however assume the few on here whining about losing their free land don't have leases. I also know many Ohio residents who lease and manage land. Matter of fact I am partners with a few in a club we have. They are great guys who have been pro-active in leasing land before they lost it. They didn't wait for a non-resident to come lease it first and then cry about how non resident hunters are ruining their state.

Last I never said that I wouldn't be willing to pay more. Just not $500 like you proposed in your other thread. I would like you to answer what that would accomplish. What are YOUR specific reasons for proposing this? I am not being smart. I am very curious



check that....Epinepehrine responded to your post...I started both of the threads...


specific reasons?


well go back on page 2 and start reading forward.....

...if you still don't get "it"....you never will....


nothing more...nothing less...

Gary in Ohio
December 10th, 2009, 12:37 PM
this is a great post. i wish its was that easy. politics play a huge role in deer management...and i dont mean insurance companies and stupid rumors like that.

people dont just hunt Ohio because its cheap or easy. that does help though. look at guys from Iowa or Kansas that come to Ohio to hunt. they live in great buck states...but come to Ohio for the adventure of a new hunting experience. maybe im wrong :confused:

I understand that due to politics most states won't do it. It stupid but that's how things go.

I don't have a problem with NR's looking for something different. I've hunted in other states (and I paid more than an NR in Ohio would pay FWIW). Sometimes a change of pace or a change of place is good.

What I find frustrating is people from states like NY, PA and even KY drooling over Ohio deer when there is no good reason that their home state doesn't have deer as good or better. I can understand this from southern states where deer tend to be smaller or western states where deer tend to be fewer. But those states are geographically similar enough to Ohio that, when properly managed, should have deer of similar numbers and size.

PAstringking
December 10th, 2009, 12:37 PM
....some of the younger guys may find this hard to believe....but a short 15 years ago in Ohio......I and several of my bow hunting friends could travel within a 25 mile radius of where we live....have access to several farms with acreage totaling in the 1,000's and bow hunt un-molested..

maybe you dont remember a short 30 years ago....all you Ohioans were traveling to camps in PA because we had deer running in packs of 30!!


a short 15 years ago....in PA....i didnt have to worry about leasing land or any of that stuff either but times change. i have to lease land just like everyone else. this is my own neighbors land too!! yea it sucks...but i cant blame the landowner for asking what his property is worth on the open market. resident or non-resident...the property would be leased for top dollar.

its just the name of the game anymore.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 12:38 PM
One thing I want to address here is a common misconception that goes unnoticed here quite a bit...

I have read several times by the people who advocate leasing that Ohioans are pissed about losing the land that they "freeloaded" on. I can agree that that is sometimes the case, but I can assure you that is not the case in a lot of instances. I know very many guys like myself who have for years, given of their time and labor to the landowners in return for permission to hunt. It is devasting to spend years building a relationship with a landowner spending you free time working their land and helping them out, only to lose that permission when a NR stops by flashing $100 bills. What, was my back breaking labor not worth anything? Did the landowner not reap any financial benefits from the work I did? Maybe this will clarify the reasoning some, like myself, are not pleased with the leasing trend. I could have spent that time with my family, but I spent it helping the landowner... did I not deserve the hunting permission in return for that work? I sure wasn't getting a paycheck for it.


I agree with you 100% and understand completely. The only thing that I would say is that it isn't always a non-resident flashing those bills. That is my problem with some. They insinuate that it is all NRs doing this. Unfortunately I think it is a sign of the times.

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 12:39 PM
I don't want anyone excluded! I just want things more moderate. We don't need tons and tons of NR's, nor do we need to charge $500 to the ones who do come here. There needs to be a common sense approach used. We surely don't need the incredibly liberal bag limits we are seeing in zone C.
I agree. Its not how much money the DNR gets, its what they do with it that counts. Wisconsin charges alot more than Ohio and they don't seem to be doing any better because of it.

As a resident of a "destination" state I enjoy meeting folks from all over that like to do the same thing I do. The biggest difference between our situations is I have a built in place to hunt because of a large (sometimes not large enough though) amount of public land and relatively open access. Its been almost 30 years since I hunted on private land.

What's happening in Zone C and what affect is caused by the NRs? Was it a management error (like overestimating the herd and underestimating potential kill) or was it a matter of only the NRs coming in and overharvesting?

Their mission:

The Division of Wildlife is a direct descendant of the Ohio Fish Commission, which was created by the General Assembly in 1873 to deal with declining fish populations in Ohio's inland lakes and streams. In 1949 the Division was joined with other state conservation agencies under the mantle of the newly created Department of Natural Resources. By that time the original Fish Commission's duties had expanded to include law enforcement, fish and wildlife management, propagation, research, stream improvement, and pollution investigation. The job has continued to grow. In 1968 the Division became responsible for enforcing Ohio's stream litter law. Its mission was broadened enormously in 1973 by the statutory addition of several hundred more species of wild animals to its care, and two years later by the legal mandate to identify, manage, and protect all endangered species in Ohio.

Land acquisition, harvest regulations, and licensing are fundamental tools in the management of Ohio's wildlife resources. The Division manages or cooperates in managing over three-quarters of a million acres of diverse wildlife lands throughout the state, plus more than 2 1/4 million acres of water. On the basis of biological data and public input, it issues regulations that supplement long-term statutes to protect wildlife and to provide the public with opportunities to benefit from wildlife for recreational, scientific, and other purposes.

Division of Wildlife projects are carried out by a team of nearly 500 trained personnel. Moneys from Ohio sportsmen and women provide 95 of every 100 dollars which pay for all these activities. The Division faces many challenges in the pursuit of its goal to ensure an abundance of high quality wildlife experiences for today's Ohioans and for future generations.


Maybe you could hold them to that. That's where it differs from ours.

The mission of the Colorado Division of Wildlife is
to protect, preserve, enhance, and manage the
wildlife of Colorado for the use, benefit, and
enjoyment of the people of Colorado and its visitors.I guess we're just nicer and more generous out here.:wink:

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:40 PM
One thing I want to address here is a common misconception that goes unnoticed here quite a bit...

I have read several times by the people who advocate leasing that Ohioans are pissed about losing the land that they "freeloaded" on. I can agree that that is sometimes the case, but I can assure you that is not the case in a lot of instances. I know very many guys like myself who have for years, given of their time and labor to the landowners in return for permission to hunt. It is devasting to spend years building a relationship with a landowner spending you free time working their land and helping them out, only to lose that permission when a NR stops by flashing $100 bills. What, was my back breaking labor not worth anything? Did the landowner not reap any financial benefits from the work I did? Maybe this will clarify the reasoning some, like myself, are not pleased with the leasing trend. I could have spent that time with my family, but I spent it helping the landowner... did I not deserve the hunting permission in return for that work? I sure wasn't getting a paycheck for it.


good post......the guys that do promote leasing would NOT understand this very concept....

leasing has *******ized [check that....the world's oldest profession] the very traditions of hunting....legalized prostitution of one of our finest resources....

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 12:40 PM
...so now....common Joes like me...who do not have $$_____per acre....are what?...Forced to knock on more doors.... at least that's what I'd do. :)

737flyer
December 10th, 2009, 12:41 PM
I have a different view on this and there are probably a handful of people in my camp as well. I spent the majority of my life in Ohio. Born and raised until career took me to North Carolina. I still go back to hunt every year. I have no problem paying the out of state license fee because I know its for the greater good. I still hunt all the farms I cut my teeth on and even picked up a few more over the years. I go back so often in fact, it's like I never left. No matter what they raise the fee to, I'd pay it.

Now, as for the lottery, I am completely torn. Ohio is getting crushed with nonresident hunting and something has to be done. On the same token, the thought of not getting drawn in my home state makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know what the answer is.

Although I was "born and raised" in Missouri and now live in Florida, I spent a great deal of my adult life in Ohio. My wife is from Ohio, her entire family is from Ohio (still there) and my oldest daughter was born and raised in Ohio. I hate the thought of having a "lottery" to determine whether or not I can hunt there. Raising the fees is a better idea.

ArchersParadox
December 10th, 2009, 12:44 PM
maybe you dont remember a short 30 years ago....all you Ohioans were traveling to camps in PA because we had deer running in packs of 30!!


a short 15 years ago....in PA....i didnt have to worry about leasing land or any of that stuff either but times change. i have to lease land just like everyone else. this is my own neighbors land too!! yea it sucks...but i cant blame the landowner for asking what his property is worth on the open market. resident or non-resident...the property would be leased for top dollar.

its just the name of the game anymore.


I spent some Ohio dollars in PA about 6 years ago for the rifle season...some of my buds have a deer camp...it was more of an excuse to drink beer...and have a boy's weekend so to speak...

well....I saw all of 2 deer in the "wild"....all of the dead deer I saw were road -kills....



yes leasing is here...and unfortunately there maybe no RIGHT answer for ALL parties in question.....

but ask any Ohio bow hunter what they think...and most will back what I am preaching...

hjort jagare
December 10th, 2009, 12:48 PM
If you could pass a law today (NO MORE NON RESEDENTS) it would not solve your main complaint leasing. The residents with more money are willing to pay and the landowners are willing to accept the money. If you owned land you would do the same. Ask a Texan its a different world now on a good note you are lucky to have some great state and federal land.:darkbeer:

mjbrady
December 10th, 2009, 12:55 PM
There is no 100% right answer to this problem. I find it funny though that most of the responses here are by NR's who are trying to compare apples to oranges. ...comparing a deer herd that can be decimated very easily if mismanaged to a beach??? come, on! How many people are loading up the bed of their truck with the sands of your beaches. GET REAL! I see a lot of the PA guys talking about the leasing thing. How would you feel if our situation was reversed? What if Ohio destroyed the hunting opportunities like your state has and Pa was a big buck state? What if we were leasing you out of hunting oppotunities in your home state? How would you feel then? I'm not saying we should get rid of NR hunters and I'm not saying we should gouge them for ridiculous fees. What I am saying is there needs to be some restraint and a common ground so that EVERYONE can enjoy a quality herd and a quality hunting experience. As for the money brought into Ohio, Once again I will pose this question... Who spends more in Ohio every year, residents who are here all year and are taxed to death or the NR's who are here a couple weeks a year. I find it funny that people always use the money given to landowners for taxes or for restaraunts, hotels, etc to justify the leasing. First we will deal with taxes... every landowner in Ohio is taxed to death not just farmers and farmers get more tax breeaks than any blue collar job guy anyway. The DNR gets more money from residents than it will EVER get from NR's. Next we will deal with restaraunts and hotels... do you think we don't eat out in Ohio on a regular basis? Do you think we don't stay in motels/hotels when we travel throughout our own state. I guarantee you I spend more money in motels in my 8 month working season travelling through Ohio than any single NR hunter that comes to Ohio and that's just for work. THat's not counting all the trips I make to Cleveland for my kid to see the Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic. So yes, we Ohioans do appreciate the money you spend to stimulate our economy, but no, you will not sink us if you decide to stop coming. You are not the be all end all in the hunting world.

SuperBuckeye, you seem to have this all figured out. You can go back and read every post here and no person every said NR give more money than residents do to hunt. I guess people cant decimate our fish since we aren't comparing apples to oranges? "Come on now" you appear way smarter than that or were you thinking we were only talking about the sand you sit on. Your view on taxes is the same as every person on this website, we are all taxed to death not just you OH guys! You pay taxes in the form of property taxes, income taxes, automobile taxes, sales taxes etc... none of the above taxes go to the wildlife of your state, that money comes from sportsmen in the form of License revenue and wildlife endowment funds. As far as motel expenses you surely do spend more money than the average NR does on motel fees and I'm sure everyone here will never argue that with you. But, try to book a room in a small town during Nov. and see how the availability goes. I surely dont have all the answers and I we could go back and forth all day with reasons for or against, but the facts remain the same. Limiting the NR will not get you any hunting land back these guys now realize people will pay them for hunting rights not just hunt for free anymore. If limiting NR can be proven to help the deer herd and quality I for one am on board for that. But if they want to go to a draw for every hunter would you be on board for that? Good luck.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 12:57 PM
If you could pass a law today (NO MORE NON RESEDENTS) it would not solve your main complaint leasing. The residents with more money are willing to pay and the landowners are willing to accept the money. If you owned land you would do the same. Ask a Texan its a different world now on a good note you are lucky to have some great state and federal land.:darkbeer:



This sums up my point. I understand you Ohio guys points. I am just trying to say that eliminating Non residents or raising their fees won't solve the problems of leasing and a diminishing herd.

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 01:02 PM
If you could pass a law today (NO MORE NON RESEDENTS) it would not solve your main complaint leasing. The residents with more money are willing to pay and the landowners are willing to accept the money. If you owned land you would do the same. Ask a Texan its a different world now on a good note you are lucky to have some great state and federal land.:darkbeer:I think you'd be right to a large degree.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 01:08 PM
What's happening in Zone C and what affect is caused by the NRs? Was it a management error (like overestimating the herd and underestimating potential kill) or was it a matter of only the NRs coming in and overharvesting?



Zone C is crazy if you have permission in the urban zones. Here are some links for you to help you understand the overzealous bag limits...

http://www.ohiodnr.com/wildlife/dow/regulations/hunting_deer.aspx#zones

urban zones in zone C...

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub117.pdf


Hunters may take up to 6 antlerless deer within the Urban Deer Units using either the Antlerless Deer Permit ($15) or Deer Permit ($24). Antlerless deer taken within the Urban Deer Units will not count towards your zone bag limit.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 01:14 PM
mjbrady- I don't believe that I would get on board for a lottery system. I think they are too limiting and can be detrimental by not allowing people enough access. I am not against NR coming here, I would like to travel to other states myself ( for big game like Bear, Elk etc.). Like I said there is no simple right answer.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 01:18 PM
If you could pass a law today (NO MORE NON RESEDENTS) it would not solve your main complaint leasing. The residents with more money are willing to pay and the landowners are willing to accept the money. If you owned land you would do the same. Ask a Texan its a different world now on a good note you are lucky to have some great state and federal land.:darkbeer:

I'm not so sure on this one. I think you'd see a big reduction in leasing if this were to happen. Most Ohioans aren't gonna pay the big dollars that outfitters get here in Ohio. The clientele would drop off and the outfitters would drop off too.

BTW... I believe "NO MORE NON-RESIDENTS" is a terribly ridiculous idea. I am not for denying people the opportunity to hunt another state. That's why places like Iowa piss me off. I would like to hunt Iowa just once, but I never will until they stop raping people with their ridiculous fees.

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Zone C is crazy if you have permission in the urban zones. Here are some links for you to help you understand the overzealous bag limits...Thanks. Did the DOW set those limits based on overpopulation? What has the effect been?

gollie15
December 10th, 2009, 01:32 PM
I may have painted with too broad a stroke there...

There are many NR who are an asset to have in state. I should have been more aware of that. Too many people do the same thing with the Amish because there's a few slobs out there. so i'll retract that part.

I'm not for a ridiculous price like $500 for a tag, but $24 for a tag and $150 for a license is pretty darn good for a midwestern state dont ya think? I think our DNR has done a great job making this state the place that it is. I just think they should be paid accordingly. Theres no reason why you should be able to hunt Ohio and WV at roughly the same price. They are not in the same ballpark as far as quality hunting.

WV and Ohio have a reciprocal agreement; to charge similar amounts to the other's residents for hunting and fishing licenses. The last time WV had a price increase on their license costs, Ohio raised their's as well.
When you say the two states are not in the same ballpark as far as quality hunting; are you referring to antler size or the quality of the hunt?
To be perfectly honest, the only reason I cross the river to hunt is because, I can start 3 weeks earlier, bowhunt 5 weeks longer and hunt Sundays. It's got nothing to do with the size of the bucks, that's just a plus.
If you find yourself with an extra $150 in your pocket next year and a week's vacation, shoot me a pm. I'll show you some quality hunting in WV.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Thanks. Did the DOW set those limits based on overpopulation? What has the effect been?

They claim the population was at 650,000 prior to the season opener. I think they were a estimating quite a bit high. Most of the people I talk to all over Ohio are seeing less deer in the last few years.

silverado08
December 10th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Yes, $150 is a bargain but what about what residents pay now that is a bargain. I have came home from Ohio many years with nothing . .I did not hunt in Oh this year and killed my 1st P&Y here in the terribly managed state of WV. Would I pay $500 to hunt in Ohio ,nope! Would some people , yes . I lived in Ohio for several years and your gun season is frightening to say the least. All the pics all over the net of big bucks is going to bring in people. I paid that much in Ill. and would I again . Probably, based on the fact I saw two booners from my stand. In respect to the leasing , I think it comes down to the farmers needing to recoup some money . Raise both in and NR tags but not so much to keep the "average Joe " from being able to hunt !

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 02:05 PM
I agree. How does Ohio come up with their estimate of population? PA has no clue what the deer population is in this state. At least you guys still have check stations. In PA you are supposed to send a report card in which I know for a fact many hunters do not.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Their estimates are based on several things including data recorded from infrared sightings, deer density formulas, etc.

We are going to a call in check in system in 2010. This is also a terrible idea. I personally know several people (including myself) who have reached out to the ODNR and written out thoughts/complaints/worries about this system and everyone gets the same BS response. This indeed will make it easier for poachers and such to violate and circumvent the system. We are getting ready to see drastic effects on the herd. I hope it is not too late when they realize this is a bad idea.

superbuckeye
December 10th, 2009, 02:46 PM
Yes, $150 is a bargain but what about what residents pay now that is a bargain. I have came home from Ohio many years with nothing . .I did not hunt in Oh this year and killed my 1st P&Y here in the terribly managed state of WV. Would I pay $500 to hunt in Ohio ,nope! Would some people , yes . I lived in Ohio for several years and your gun season is frightening to say the least. All the pics all over the net of big bucks is going to bring in people. I paid that much in Ill. and would I again . Probably, based on the fact I saw two booners from my stand. In respect to the leasing , I think it comes down to the farmers needing to recoup some money . Raise both in and NR tags but not so much to keep the "average Joe " from being able to hunt !

raise resident prices again??? ok, this is not specific only to Ohio, but why is it a state's hunters and fishermen are solely responsible for supporting The DNR? Why is it that Hikers, birdwatchers, skiers, beach goers, picnickers, and so many others get to use our resources Scot-free while we keep paying and paying and paying? We as hunters and fishermen throughout the entire US pay more for conservation that any other group through taxes on equipment, ammo, tackle, licenses, etc.

jgss2
December 10th, 2009, 02:57 PM
raise resident prices again??? ok, this is not specific only to Ohio, but why is it a state's hunters and fishermen are solely responsible for supporting The DNR? Why is it that Hikers, birdwatchers, skiers, beach goers, picnickers, and so many others get to use our resources Scot-free while we keep paying and paying and paying? We as hunters and fishermen throughout the entire US pay more for conservation that any other group through taxes on equipment, ammo, takle, licenses, etc.

Amen to this

silverado08
December 10th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Oh's current license for a resident is a deal ! I personally buy extra tags here in wv and don't use half of them. If it helps keep hunting alive I don't care . How do you think they pay for the dnr employees? But I do agree why not charge others. Not sure how you charge someone to hike on state land or the famers property? They should pay us for helping maintain the herd but I don't see that happenning .

Grizz1219
December 10th, 2009, 03:10 PM
raise resident prices again??? ok, this is not specific only to Ohio, but why is it a state's hunters and fishermen are solely responsible for supporting The DNR? Why is it that Hikers, birdwatchers, skiers, beach goers, picnickers, and so many others get to use our resources Scot-free while we keep paying and paying and paying? We as hunters and fishermen throughout the entire US pay more for conservation that any other group through taxes on equipment, ammo, tackle, licenses, etc.

Because we are the "silent" ones... We don't bring this up in places that mean anything... we sit quietly by allowing them to just ream us... :mad:

Bobmuley
December 10th, 2009, 03:25 PM
Because we are the "silent" ones... We don't bring this up in places that mean anything... we sit quietly by allowing them to just ream us... :mad:Not in Colorado. The Colorado Bowhunters Association is quite vocal. We get reamed loudly.

Grizz1219
December 10th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Hell... I'm VP of the state board of directors for the NWTF, trust me.. The state hears me... LOL.... We get things done but I can't do all the org's... you know.. time... I work 2 jobs... so 1 org. at a time.. When I'm through with the NWTF and I no longer make progress with them, I will move on to the next org...

But I don't think I will push to make NR's pay foolish fees.. not in my game plan... :wink:

ARCHERYXPERT
December 10th, 2009, 03:45 PM
If you check out the Ohio DNR web page and check the sale of NR hunting License sales you will be surprised. Less than 5% of Ohio licenses are NR. Less than 30,000 out of 600,000 plus hunters. So I DOUBT if I or the other 4% or so of NR's are hurting Your hunting. But by all means increase the fee's why not everyone else does it.

NYGut Shot
December 10th, 2009, 05:08 PM
Ask a farmer in Ohio who he would rather have hunt his property....a local who hunts for free or a NR who spends thousands of dollars to HIM...

Im one of those NR who spends thousands to lease in your state .....and please guys learn to read and respect the POSTED signs..Thank You

dx2
December 10th, 2009, 05:10 PM
Maybe the ODNR has done too good of a job managing the deer hunting in OH, and as a result many are spoiled.

Maybe there needs to be adjustments to the number of doe permits given out to improve herd numbers, especially on public land, according to what a lot of people are reporting.

Hopefully, we can continue to count on the ODNR to make those types of adjustments to keep deer hunting attractive for HUNTERS, not just resident hunters.

Like many have pointed out already, nobody is really excited about the rising cost of hunting in other states so why would you support an increase in those costs in your own state?

I for one enjoy hunting, period. I will stay home and hunt my own state if it wasn't reasonable to hunt out of state. We don't have huge bucks, but we have plenty of game. I could go without deer hunting in OH if it got expensive. It's already expensive enough for the common hunter when you figure gas, lodging, food, etc.

I do not support a large increase in the cost of hunting fees anywhere.....government agencies have a way of wasting money and on top of that we need to preserve the sport for future generations, not price them out of it. We are losing sight of the big picture with these arguments and need to get back to enjoying hunting and sharing it with others. The future depends on us.

Keep up the good work, ODNR.....and thanks for making great deer hunting affordable for all hunters, resident and non-resident alike.

Signed,
Non-resident hunter - 4 years and counting - deer and turkey.

dx2
December 10th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Hell... I'm VP of the state board of directors for the NWTF, trust me.. The state hears me... LOL.... We get things done but I can't do all the org's... you know.. time... I work 2 jobs... so 1 org. at a time.. When I'm through with the NWTF and I no longer make progress with them, I will move on to the next org...

But I don't think I will push to make NR's pay foolish fees.. not in my game plan... :wink:

Excellent! Thanks for your commitment to the sport of hunting and for you comments on this thread. The NWTF is a great organization. I'm proud to be a committee member of the #1 ranked chapter. :)

BMAN007
December 13th, 2009, 08:15 AM
This is one of the most insane posts I have ever read. First of all you clearly state the you are upset that the landowners are leasing land that you hunted for free. Maybe if your residents helped out your landowners instead of freeloaded off of them for years they wouldn't be leasing their land to out of state hunters. Why blame the out of staters, and not blame your landowners. How dare the Ohio landowners lease the ground that they own and help subsidize their taxes and other expenses. Second, I don't think that being a NR hunter is a pre-requisite to lease land. Last I heard, you could buck up and lease land just like I can.

Secondly I agree that you should charge me what my state charges you to hunt. PA charges 101.50 for a NR license (approx I think) so you would be saving me money. Thanks.

Next, why hate Outfitters. This is America and last I heard it is a free market to make a living however one chooses. So you are upset that an outfitter has taken some of the ground that you hunted for free. That's life. Once again buck up and help the landowners out instead of freeloading.

Last, don't give me this crap that it is a rich man's game. I am working class just like most guys on here. I save my money and get some guys whom i trust to help me out and we lease our ground and respect our landowner and his property. As a matter of fact the reason he finally decided to lease it was because of all of the local RESIDENTS shooting anything that moves and trashing his ground.

I am not trying to start an arguement but felt I had to respond to this. You guys in OHIO have an awesome resource in your deer herd and I totally understand being protective of that. If you feel too many deer are being killed than you need to police yourselves first as it is residents who kill the vast majority of the deer. Eliminating NR hunters won't solve that problem. As for elimating leasing. I know a lot of Farmers and landowners in Ohio who would not be very happy about this. As I said earlier quit whining and buck up and lease some land. Very few things in this life are free anymore.


am glad to see that im a "freeloader" on most of the "free" land i get to hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!let me tell you something bud i spend most of my free time,when not at my 40+ hour job,helping out said farmer do things he wants done to get to hunt.then some NR dip#$&@ as yourself comes along and starts flashing that money round and guess who gets the ole heavho us residents that have worked our asses off helping said farmer!so dont even come on here calling me a freeloader,cause that burns my ass more than you can even think about!

i just get sick of seeing said NR show up to ohio and be at walmart or other hunting shop at 830 at night buying tags arrows amoo or other related crap and then plan on going to woods next day to harvest something ive paid to help get where we are a healthy ohio deer herd.but each year to my displeasure isee more and more out of statsers coming here to hunt.wheres it goin to end?when we as ohioian are out of deer or places to hunt "for free"?

i wish i knew how many NR have been caught poaching in ohio or have shot said "big buck" and cut the head off and left rest lay just to keep hunting?

anyway just to reply to your post as a "freeloader" i am!

BMAN007
December 13th, 2009, 08:19 AM
i wasnt whining either just sating a "fact" that most ohio hunters already know or are dealing with,money bag dip#$% out of staters flashing that cash to lease it all up and leave us that have helped get us ohioians a healthy deer herd for you NR to enjoy.

by the way how many NRpeople you have come to your state to hunt, be in my shoes your see it my way !

x-finder
December 17th, 2009, 10:00 AM
i wasnt whining either just sating a "fact" that most ohio hunters already know or are dealing with,money bag dip#$% out of staters flashing that cash to lease it all up and leave us that have helped get us ohioians a healthy deer herd for you NR to enjoy.

by the way how many NRpeople you have come to your state to hunt, be in my shoes your see it my way !

WOW,I live near a well stocked trout stream in PA and there are more Ohio people fishing it than PA guys and alot of the hunting camps in the mountains of PA are owned by Ohio residents that hunt deer and turkey here. enjoy.:)

jgss2
December 17th, 2009, 12:22 PM
WOW,I live near a well stocked trout stream in PA and there are more Ohio people fishing it than PA guys and alot of the hunting camps in the mountains of PA are owned by Ohio residents that hunt deer and turkey here. enjoy.:)

Good point

jgss2
December 17th, 2009, 12:24 PM
This is in response to BMAN007 and his post #137

This makes me laugh. People try to have a discussion on how things are seen from both sides and it always turns to this. Someone gets backed into a corner with little valid to say and gets INTERNET TOUGH by calling people bud and dips#$t. Lets review your points shall we.

1. Upset because you work a normal 40+ work week, then spend most of your free time working for a farmer who in turn screws you by leasing your hunting ground to a rich NR.
First why be mad at whoever leased the land. If I were you I'd be pissed at the farmer who used your many hours of labor and then leased away your hunting ground. By the way you could try the way I do it. I work 60+ hours a week most weeks and save my $$ so I can lease some ground and not have this happen.

2. Tired of all the NR in wal mart the night before season buying all of their stuff to hunt the next day. Come on. How many NR are going to pay to lease land and then come to OHIO the day before season and buy all of their gear in an Ohio Wal Mart. I am sure it happens but I'd say 10000 times as many residents do that as well.

3. You wish you knew how many out of staters get caught poaching and cutting the heads off of bucks to keep hunting. I wish you knew as well because it is probably not that many. There are bad apples everywhere but I'd say most of Ohio's poaching is done by Ohioans not NRs just as most of PA's poaching is done by PA residents.(and believe me we have NR hunters too)


To finish I was able to get my land because the landowner was tired of all of the poaching, tresspassing and vandalism done by a few locals (not NRs). And I didn't drive up to his farm in a fancy truck flashing hundred dollar bills. I answered an ad on Ohio Sportsman.com. The landowner advertised it locally but got no takers. I have a couple partners (who are Ohio residents by the way) and we split the costs so it is affordable for us. I am not saying leasing is 100% right but this is 2009 and things are the way they are. You could hunt public land. You can get a few trusted friends together and try and get some land leased. Or you can just keep calling people dips#$ts on the internet when you lose another hunting spot.

Just a reply to your post as the "NR dips%$t" that I am!

deertracker
December 17th, 2009, 01:29 PM
It's somewhat laughable how this thread has become a pissing contest between residents and NR's. Nothing will be resolved here.

People can poach and trash the land whether they're a resident or NR just the same. You should focus on the quality of hunter, not what state they reside in. Just my .02. BTW, I'm an Ohio resident.

Bobmuley
December 17th, 2009, 01:59 PM
...
by the way how many NRpeople you have come to your state to hunt, be in my shoes your see it my way !Colorado sold 123,000 nonresident licenses in 2008.

Ohio sold 32,000.

Why do you think you have it so bad...

jgss2
December 17th, 2009, 03:45 PM
It's somewhat laughable how this thread has become a pissing contest between residents and NR's. Nothing will be resolved here.

People can poach and trash the land whether they're a resident or NR just the same. You should focus on the quality of hunter, not what state they reside in. Just my .02. BTW, I'm an Ohio resident.

This is probably the best post here yet!!!

As a NR I have been a little upset because a few seem to want to group all NRs into the same class of poachers who come in flashing thousands of dollars at poor farmers and take advantage of them.
You are right in that Ohio, PA, Colorado or which ever other state you want to choose, you will have bad representatives of us as hunters from both residents and Non-Residents.

brokenlittleman
December 23rd, 2009, 01:14 PM
All these threads are the same. It is always someone from a state that has had great hunting over the years for free and is getting agravated that someone comes in and pays for the right to hunt someone else's property.

It then becomes a problem only caused by NR's. No one ever mentions that residents lease land or have the option to lease land. It is always the NR's come in and shoot small bucks ruining the hunting. I have seen residents lease land and I have seen a ton of residents shoot way more small bucks than I ever will. I go to other states for the oppurtunity to maybe see something better than I will in my home state, see different areas or extend my hunting season.

I have seen both sides of the fence as I was born in and raised in NJ. One of the most pitiful states in the country for mature deer. I also spent 5 years in Illinois and now live in Kentucky which I consider to be 2 of the best states in the country. Bottom line is adapt to the environment we are in or get left behind. Being upset and complaining about it may get it resolved but I know if I want to enjoy quality hunting I will work my butt off to get it. Even if it means I will have to give up something else to be able to pay for it.

LONGSHOT ARTIST
December 23rd, 2009, 04:56 PM
i would like to see them double the NR hunting liscense, make a set amount of tags, first come first serve, no lottery.

then i would like to see earn a buck tag by having to harvest a doe first, then your able to shoot your buck.....
....this would make the non-res have to purchase both tags and thus helping our buck to doe ratio and cutting down on just the buck hunters and increase revenue by them having to purchase two deer tags.

ohio is getting flooded with non-res and they are leasing up alot of land, something needs to be done or us ohio-ans will not have any deer or land to hunt.