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sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 08:51 AM
How sure are you of what you beleive.
1.100% sure the God of the bible real
2.75% sure the God of the bible real
3. 50% sure the God of the bible real
4.100% sure there is no God
5. 100% there is a creator but he is not the God of the bible

3dn4jc
December 31st, 2009, 09:13 AM
How sure are you of what you beleive.
1.100% sure the God of the bible real
2.75% sure the God of the bible real
3. 50% sure the God of the bible real
4.100% sure there is no God
5. 100% there is a creator but he is not the God of the bible

100% sure that the God of the Bible is real!!!!!!!

Northforker
December 31st, 2009, 10:01 AM
number 5

RUMMY
December 31st, 2009, 10:49 AM
100% sure that the god of the bible is real!!!!!!!amen!

MrShake
December 31st, 2009, 11:20 AM
100% sure that the God of the Bible is real!!!!!!!

Can't say it better... or more clearly! Amen!

MN_Chick
December 31st, 2009, 11:35 AM
100% sure we don't know anything. If you find a belief that makes you happy, then run with it.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 11:40 AM
100% sure we don't know anything. If you find a belief that makes you happy, then run with it.not a option and please speak for yourself.

MN_Chick
December 31st, 2009, 11:46 AM
not a option and please speak for yourself.

ok- I am 100% sure none of us know anything. Your options are very narrow and don't account for a lot of beliefs.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 12:10 PM
ok- I am 100% sure none of us know anything. Your options are very narrow and don't account for a lot of beliefs. thats better;) thems the options .

rholly9135
December 31st, 2009, 12:32 PM
This is just a ridiculous post. Can anyone say FISHING. Anyway, I am 99.9 % sure there is no god. But, b/c there is no proof that god doesn't exist I cannot be 100% certain. I know stic, not one of the choices, but life and the way we make decisions is not multiple choice.

habanero
December 31st, 2009, 02:08 PM
100% sure we don't know anything. If you find a belief that makes you happy, then run with it.

+2 We can be sure of nothing.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 03:17 PM
+2 We can be sure of nothing.your talking about you and Mnchick right? Because I know your not talking for everyone. Because then you would be Wrong.

3dn4jc
December 31st, 2009, 03:34 PM
amen!

Just wondering, why was the Capital G changed in God to a "little g" in your post #4?

Seattlepop
December 31st, 2009, 04:36 PM
100% sure we don't know anything. If you find a belief that makes you happy, then run with it.

Is that a self-refuting statement? :p

I'd have to with #6. None of the above.

habanero
December 31st, 2009, 04:46 PM
your talking about you and Mnchick right? Because I know your not talking for everyone. Because then you would be Wrong.

Anyone claiming to be 100% sure of anything God related is a fool or simply lacks the intellectual capacity to see beyond what is contained in there closed little minds. Which do you think best describes you? I've studied the bible for many years and am quite confident I know nothing for certain.

Seattlepop
December 31st, 2009, 05:11 PM
Anyone claiming to be 100% sure of anything God related is a fool or simply lacks the intellectual capacity to see beyond what is contained in there closed little minds. Which do you think best describes you? I've studied the bible for many years and am quite confident I know nothing for certain.

Including everything preceding this reflection.

Robinhooder3
December 31st, 2009, 05:21 PM
How sure are you of what you beleive.
1.100% sure the God of the bible real
2.75% sure the God of the bible real
3. 50% sure the God of the bible real
4.100% sure there is no God
5. 100% there is a creator but he is not the God of the bible

96.7439% there is no super natural deity. really shouldn't have made this an a b c d style format.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 05:32 PM
Anyone claiming to be 100% sure of anything God related is a fool or simply lacks the intellectual capacity to see beyond what is contained in there closed little minds. Which do you think best describes you? I've studied the bible for many years and am quite confident I know nothing for certain.
and like I said before many times those who know Him not will never understand or see His truth..;) your post proves that thank you.:angel:

wvbearman
December 31st, 2009, 05:33 PM
100% sure god is real. For those of you who do not believe, take some time and read the bible.

MN_Chick
December 31st, 2009, 05:35 PM
100% sure god is real. For those of you who do not believe, take some time and read the bible.

Already did. Why do you think I rejected it in the first place?

MN_Chick
December 31st, 2009, 05:36 PM
your talking about you and Mnchick right? Because I know your not talking for everyone. Because then you would be Wrong.

Why so touchy? No one else here is trying to speak for everyone- personal beliefs only.

kraven
December 31st, 2009, 05:54 PM
If you don't want to know what other people think, then don't ask.

Everyone may not agree with you.

If you don't want a debate, then don't shout your opinions or beliefs in bolded 36pt font.


Why is this so difficult?

MIKEY CUSTOM-G
December 31st, 2009, 06:29 PM
HE who said,,,,"thomas,,,you have believed because you have seen (CHRIST' resurection),,blessed are those who have NOT seen but yet still believe"


i prefer to consider myself one of "those" who JESUS spoke about right here....never "saw" but yet nonetheless believe. thats a blessing i have stored for me that i do not wish to lose....


and in my unbelief i ask GOD to strengthen my belief so i may walk more abundantly in HIS will of blessing HE has for me.

am i perfect in my belief ??? not even close. i struggle to believe as i am sure many other christians do who are honest. ??? why do i struggle with unbelief ??? rather simple i believe,,,,because i never SEEN with my own eyes...i have seen miracles,,,and many healings and wonders of GOD,,,,,but yet,,,,because i am a man who is an inheritor of sin,,,,my thinking and mind process is not perfect and is clouded.

but i press on to what i have been told to be true,,,,and one day,,, i pray,,, that CHRIST would be found in me,,,,,the hope of my glory...colossians 1:27


and all my unbelief and all of my true belief would be made manifest in CHRIST,,,and i would live in HIS kingdom,,,the everlasting abundant life HE promised to me...:darkbeer:



how much of a "percentage" of true belief that is,,,,???? 100%....75% etc....i only pray for a MUSTARD SEED of belief,,,,which would have to be way less than 1%....and thats my prayer till i depart this place,,,may a mustard seed of faith in believing be in me,,,,knowing that this would be sufficient in CHRIST' eyes...

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 06:44 PM
Why so touchy? No one else here is trying to speak for everyone- personal beliefs only.
Not topuchy at all.;)

GPtimes2
December 31st, 2009, 07:40 PM
I'am 100% sure that God is real because the Holy Spirit has revealed himself to me in a variety of ways. Once you have experienced some things, then it is easy to see how God would make sure the bible says what he wants it to say. So yes, I believe he is the God of the bible. I also believe he represents himself as the "FATHER, SON, and Holy Spirit". It only takes what would be considered a very small amount of faith to be 100% sure. People say you can't be sure without facts or proof that can be seen or duplicated, but that just isn't true. And that isn't something I can teach them or convince them of, only God can. So I just like to come on here and say it once in a while, incase God wants to use it to reach or encourage someone. Hope this helps.:smile:

posco
December 31st, 2009, 07:42 PM
ok- I am 100% sure none of us know anything.
How can you be so sure?

posco
December 31st, 2009, 07:43 PM
Can't say it better... or more clearly! Amen!

Double-dog ditto.

superbuckeye
December 31st, 2009, 08:01 PM
100% sure that the God of the Bible is real!!!!!!!

I agree completely!

rholly9135
December 31st, 2009, 08:10 PM
How can you be so sure?

B/C unless God comes down in physical form and says I am god watch me do this amazing trick, then we can be 100% certain until then, none of us know. Those who believe in god can be 99.9% faithful that there is a god and those that don't can be 99.9% certain that there is not god, but nobody really knows 100%. Pretty simple to understand if you ask me.

posco
December 31st, 2009, 08:13 PM
B/C unless God comes down in physical form and says I am god watch me do this amazing trick, then we can be 100% certain until then, none of us know. Those who believe in god can be 99.9% faithful that there is a god and those that don't can be 99.9% certain that there is not god, but nobody really knows 100%. Pretty simple to understand if you ask me.

There's an amazing strand of conformity here amongst believers who claim to "know" God. I can't understand Steven Hawking's concepts any more than you can understand mine...until you've been there.

rholly9135
December 31st, 2009, 08:16 PM
There's an amazing strand of conformity here amongst believers who claim to "know" God. I can't understand Steven Hawking's concepts any more than you can understand mine...until you've been there.

That doesn't change anything. No one really knows. I make my decisions off of scientific facts and you make your decisions off of faith. Nothing wrong with either, no one is right or wrong. Can you accept that?

safe cracker
December 31st, 2009, 08:23 PM
this what they call blind faith...you gotta jump in with both feet not just get your toes wet...:book1:

posco
December 31st, 2009, 08:26 PM
That doesn't change anything. No one really knows. I make my decisions off of scientific facts and you make your decisions off of faith. Nothing wrong with either, no one is right or wrong. Can you accept that?
No, I don't accept that. You accept your position from articles of faith in the area of evolution and to say otherwise is ill-informed or dishonest. I know what I know and I know what you cannot know until you're willing to know. And it's under God's divine purview to decide whether you know or not, not mine...not even yours. Calvinism 101.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 08:33 PM
B/C unless God comes down in physical form and says I am god watch me do this amazing trick, then we can be 100% certain until then, none of us know. Those who believe in god can be 99.9% faithful that there is a god and those that don't can be 99.9% certain that there is not god, but nobody really knows 100%. Pretty simple to understand if you ask me.
But He did. And they nailed him to the cross. Human pride and spiritual blindness.

Backlash
December 31st, 2009, 08:35 PM
100% sure God is real and I do accept him as my savior.

rholly9135
December 31st, 2009, 08:36 PM
No, I don't accept that. You accept your position from articles of faith in the area of evolution and to say otherwise is ill-informed or dishonest. I know what I know and I know what you cannot know until you're willing to know. And it's under God's divine purview to decide whether you know or not, not mine...not even yours. Calvinism 101.

Dude, I went to church for 15 years of my life, and grew up in a family who is still to this day very religious (not crazy zealots) but religious none the less. I don't accept it b/c I just don't buy into it. I have a different way of thinking that unlike you goes based on scientific fact. I was trying to be nice with you and accept that you believe what you want to. I am not trying to belittle you or anything, and I am not trying to turn this into and I'm right you are wrong debate. Why can't you just accept the fact that some of us do not believe the way you do and that we are not necessarily wrong. You don't know at all. You have no way of knowing. Just as I don't know. I lean towards the no god thing and you lean towards the yes god thing, but we don't really know.

rholly9135
December 31st, 2009, 08:38 PM
But He did. And they nailed him to the cross. Human pride and spiritual blindness.

You accept that he is the son of god so blindly, but if in modern times this happened (and people have claimed they are the son of god) we would throw them in the nut house not praise them. Proof is not some dude being nailed to the cross. Now, maybe if jesus came out of mary's girly parts as a fully grown human being I might start believing in god.

posco
December 31st, 2009, 08:40 PM
Dude, I went to church for 15 years of my life, and grew up in a family who is still to this day very religious (not crazy zealots) but religious none the less.
So!? Ask any pastor you meet and most will agree, that in their estimation, less than half of those who fill the pew are truly converted. There's nothing new there. I sat in one for four years before things clicked, so to speak.
It's not a matter of being nice, you're a fine guy as far as I'm concerned. You're just wrong, that's all.

sawtoothscream
December 31st, 2009, 08:45 PM
I 100% beleive idk and no one will know the truth until there dead.

ill just keep doing what im doing.

sawtoothscream
December 31st, 2009, 08:52 PM
100% sure god is real. For those of you who do not believe, take some time and read the bible.

um its a man made book. not written by god himself but by MAN

there for i dont think it prooves anything.

posco
December 31st, 2009, 08:52 PM
Something else. I had the good fortune to get on the air with a talk radio show host today. The topic was evolution. He had on some women I'd never heard of...curator of a big museum and credentials in the evolutionary field. She sounded swell, all well and good but you would never know there was any debate and that it wasn't a settled science as with MMGW.

I didn't get to speak with her but I did with him. Harvard educated guy who looked scornfully on "faith". I pointed out to him that there were mathematicians who took issue with evolution based on the mathematical hoops one would have to jump through to believe it. His words were "Well I don't know that there are any mathematicians who disagree with.............". Point being, he was right, he doesn't know and wasn't concerned at all with finding out.

Closed mind.

SputterFuss
December 31st, 2009, 08:57 PM
99,9% certain there is nothing at all supernatural.

sticshooter
December 31st, 2009, 09:16 PM
um its a man made book. not written by god himself but by MAN

there for i dont think it prooves anything.you should google bible. It is a amazing book. And impossible to think mere humans could write it on there,. But I know you really could careless... thats fine ;)

posco
December 31st, 2009, 09:41 PM
I pointed out to him that there were mathematicians who took issue with evolution based on the mathematical hoops one would have to jump through to believe it.

"Taking the physical variables into account, what is the likelihood of a universe giving us life coming into existence by coincidence? One in billions of billions? Or trillions of trillions of trillions? Or more?

Roger Penrose*, a famous British mathematician and a close friend of Stephen Hawking, wondered about this question and tried to calculate the probability. Including what he considered to be all variables required for human beings to exist and live on a planet such as ours, he computed the probability of this environment occurring among all the possible results of the Big Bang.

According to Penrose, the odds against such an occurrence were on the order of 1010123 to 1.

It is hard even to imagine what this number means. In math, the value 10123 means 1 followed by 123 zeros. (This is, by the way, more than the total number of atoms 1078 believed to exist in the whole universe.) But Penrose's answer is vastly more than this: It requires 1 followed by 10123 zeros."

http://www.faizani.com/news/news_2003/math_impossibility.html

QuickReflex
December 31st, 2009, 10:03 PM
100% sure God is real and I do accept him as my savior.



Same here, If Im wrong no harm no foul Ive lived my life with my head high knowing I took the high road .(so to speak)

However, If your a non beliver & your wrong come lifes end then it may get a little warm for you. But look on the bright side you wont have to worry about Snow.

SMOKES
December 31st, 2009, 10:48 PM
Dude, I went to church for 15 years of my life, and grew up in a family who is still to this day very religious (not crazy zealots) but religious none the less. I don't accept it b/c I just don't buy into it. I have a different way of thinking that unlike you goes based on scientific fact. I was trying to be nice with you and accept that you believe what you want to. I am not trying to belittle you or anything, and I am not trying to turn this into and I'm right you are wrong debate. Why can't you just accept the fact that some of us do not believe the way you do and that we are not necessarily wrong. You don't know at all. You have no way of knowing. Just as I don't know. I lean towards the no god thing and you lean towards the yes god thing, but we don't really know.
How can it be said that we
I will speak for myself and I am truley aware that there is a God
and ou can speak for yourself and say I don't really know
fair enough

SMOKES
December 31st, 2009, 10:51 PM
99,9% certain there is nothing at all supernatural.

I am 110% sure that it is
Seen angles ,devils and such yep and i ain't drunk a drop in 30 years

krieger
December 31st, 2009, 11:13 PM
I'am 100% sure that God is real because the Holy Spirit has revealed himself to me in a variety of ways. Once you have experienced some things, then it is easy to see how God would make sure the bible says what he wants it to say. So yes, I believe he is the God of the bible. I also believe he represents himself as the "FATHER, SON, and Holy Spirit". It only takes what would be considered a very small amount of faith to be 100% sure. People say you can't be sure without facts or proof that can be seen or duplicated, but that just isn't true. And that isn't something I can teach them or convince them of, only God can. So I just like to come on here and say it once in a while, incase God wants to use it to reach or encourage someone. Hope this helps.:smile:


As usual, the best post on the whole thread gets glossed over. Well said !

drenalinxt
December 31st, 2009, 11:24 PM
ok- I am 100% sure none of us know anything. Your options are very narrow and don't account for a lot of beliefs.

i am 100% sure that my and your god of bible is real. and 70-80 of americans believe so. so that leaves you in low minority, and with that said you will bow down to him day. and when says leave sight for you nothing for me or beleieve in me. and your soul will be in eternal damnation. but, you are one those that knows everything, so there is no reasoning with you. therefore anyone that has witnessed to you already has your blood washed from their hands. you may as well become one with buda or ala. and we chirstains know where they going in the end. see last book of the bible plainly says we win satan loses. and eternal damnation will upon anyone that adds to the bible or takes away from it. for it is GOD'S word, and word is life. but i would not expect narrow mined people to see the differance.:wink:

rholly9135
January 1st, 2010, 12:13 AM
i am 100% sure that my and your god of bible is real. and 70-80 of americans believe so. so that leaves you in low minority, and with that said you will bow down to him day. and when says leave sight for you nothing for me or beleieve in me. and your soul will be in eternal damnation. but, you are one those that knows everything, so there is no reasoning with you. therefore anyone that has witnessed to you already has your blood washed from their hands. you may as well become one with buda or ala. and we chirstains know where they going in the end. see last book of the bible plainly says we win satan loses. and eternal damnation will upon anyone that adds to the bible or takes away from it. for it is GOD'S word, and word is life. but i would not expect narrow mined people to see the differance.:wink:

You've been drinking too much. I can't even understand your post. Lay off the booze or AT until sober, you aren't making any sense.

MIKEY CUSTOM-G
January 1st, 2010, 12:41 AM
I am 110% sure that it is
Seen angles ,devils and such yep and i ain't drunk a drop in 30 years


awesome...:darkbeer:

drenalinxt
January 1st, 2010, 02:55 AM
You've been drinking too much. I can't even understand your post. Lay off the booze or AT until sober, you aren't making any sense.

no not drinking, was in a hurry to type that so i could eat some homemade deer chilli i made, it was done and i was hungry. i just read what wrote and left out some words and miss spelled too. but nope nothing to drink all my alcohol are collectors that are sitting and aging. i am not much of the drinker once in awhile. but for the most part no. have not went out on new years eve in while. got better things to spend my money. but i was telling her that one day she will bow down to GOD our creator whether she likes it or not, and that she was in the lower minority as a non-believer, because 70-80 percent of americans believe. that GOD is real. and that she should become one with ala or buda, cause if she does not believe in GOD as being real that her soul will be in eternal damnation. and it is something that can never be reversed. when she has to bow down before THE LORD and he asks her what she did for him and can not anwser he will tell her to leave his site, and those that have tried telling her different, and because she knows everything, she is beyond reasoning, that her blood that was on the hands of those who tried to help her will be washed away. cause those that are beyond reasoning will spend their eternal life in the pit of hades.

rholly9135
January 1st, 2010, 11:06 AM
no not drinking, was in a hurry to type that so i could eat some homemade deer chilli i made, it was done and i was hungry. i just read what wrote and left out some words and miss spelled too. but nope nothing to drink all my alcohol are collectors that are sitting and aging. i am not much of the drinker once in awhile. but for the most part no. have not went out on new years eve in while. got better things to spend my money. but i was telling her that one day she will bow down to GOD our creator whether she likes it or not, and that she was in the lower minority as a non-believer, because 70-80 percent of americans believe. that GOD is real. and that she should become one with ala or buda, cause if she does not believe in GOD as being real that her soul will be in eternal damnation. and it is something that can never be reversed. when she has to bow down before THE LORD and he asks her what she did for him and can not anwser he will tell her to leave his site, and those that have tried telling her different, and because she knows everything, she is beyond reasoning, that her blood that was on the hands of those who tried to help her will be washed away. cause those that are beyond reasoning will spend their eternal life in the pit of hades.

And this is what drives me away from religion. This whole eternal damnation. PUrely scare tactics in my opinion.

By the way, I made a deer chili a few weeks back. It was really good, but I added to many chillies and the darn thing was too hot. So we froze what we didn't eat and I am going to make a new batch without any chillies then we will just mix the two. MMMMMM love deer chili. :darkbeer:

RUMMY
January 1st, 2010, 12:01 PM
Just wondering, why was the Capital G changed in God to a "little g" in your post #4?I assure you that was a mistake. I did not notice it until I looked at this thread again. I meant to capitilize the word AMEN, but did not. I tried to edit, and apparently I accidentally highlighted your post. About the time, I realized I still had not capitalized the word AMEN, my computer froze up. At any rate, I agree with your post 100%! I am 100% sure that the God of the Bible is real, and there is none other!!!

sawtoothscream
January 1st, 2010, 12:27 PM
Same here, If Im wrong no harm no foul Ive lived my life with my head high knowing I took the high road .(so to speak)

However, If your a non beliver & your wrong come lifes end then it may get a little warm for you. But look on the bright side you wont have to worry about Snow.

ya i guess. probally why most people believe and whorship. fear of burning in hell.

but if your whorshiping the wrong god you might still end up in a hell.


but what ever. everyone has a choice. im fine and support what ever you choose to believe in if it makes you happy.

HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!!!

drenalinxt
January 1st, 2010, 04:22 PM
And this is what drives me away from religion. This whole eternal damnation. PUrely scare tactics in my opinion.

By the way, I made a deer chili a few weeks back. It was really good, but I added to many chillies and the darn thing was too hot. So we froze what we didn't eat and I am going to make a new batch without any chillies then we will just mix the two. MMMMMM love deer chili. :darkbeer:

that is your option my friend, you and you alone have to be accountable for your own soul, not i or anyelse can be for you. and you also my friend will bow down before the LORD JESUS CHRIST TOO one day in the very near future. and while are there before him at the great white judement throne. what are going to tell him when asks what have you done for me? and then when he says to you that your name is not writen here in the lambs book of life. what are you going to say. that you are sorry! thats gonna help cause by that time it will be late. and like i said it never be reversed. you know the great lie of all is making you believe that he does not exsist my friend. and once you are decieved. then has you were wants you. and my guess is you do not believe in the new world order which being openly taked by politicains now. a one world religion, one world goverment, one world money. are you so blind not see things are right, you not seeing the big picture here. it is happing before eyes. and the bible GOD'S word speaks of these things, and they are unfolding at rapid pace. but there is heaven and a hades. and GOD is real, and satan is real. but that is still option to be accountable for your own soul. just sorry to here that you are chosing the wrong path. jesus said no man shall come to the faathe except through me, and no man shall enter heaven untill believes that i am the SON OF GOD. I AM THAT I AM.
but for chilli i have the greatest chilli recipe there is. it is thick not watery and is great with shreaded cheese and fritos. and if anybody would like to try this recipe pm me. i tell you, you won't be dissapointed.
it is my mom's recipe but i added one green bell pepper and 2 cayanne peppers to it. cayanne peppers are homegrown in my garden. recipe has won several contests and was highy reguarded at the chilli 3d shoot fund raiser this past year. there were quite a few chilli pots there, but mine was the only one that came home empty.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 12:27 AM
"Taking the physical variables into account, what is the likelihood of a universe giving us life coming into existence by coincidence? One in billions of billions? Or trillions of trillions of trillions? Or more?

Roger Penrose*, a famous British mathematician and a close friend of Stephen Hawking, wondered about this question and tried to calculate the probability. Including what he considered to be all variables required for human beings to exist and live on a planet such as ours, he computed the probability of this environment occurring among all the possible results of the Big Bang.

According to Penrose, the odds against such an occurrence were on the order of 1010123 to 1.

It is hard even to imagine what this number means. In math, the value 10123 means 1 followed by 123 zeros. (This is, by the way, more than the total number of atoms 1078 believed to exist in the whole universe.) But Penrose's answer is vastly more than this: It requires 1 followed by 10123 zeros."

http://www.faizani.com/news/news_2003/math_impossibility.html

The primary issue is that evolution isn't random. That is what natural selection is for. If you also prescribe to the big bang/ big crunch idea there would be an endless amount of times the universe could have come into existence so with an endless number of sequences the event of anything that is physically possible happening is 100% no matter what the odds. Also, humans are only one of many different possible outcomes life could have taken to adapt to it's environment. This is also more of an argument for Deism which is difficult to disprove.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 12:37 AM
'um its a man made book. not written by god himself but by MAN

there for i dont think it prooves anything"

If you want to get technical... it is the living word of god... written by man, inspired by god.. has withstood the test of time.. and all of the evil doers' attempts to destroy it for centuries.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 12:48 AM
'um its a man made book. not written by god himself but by MAN

there for i dont think it prooves anything"



This part I agree with. It would be simply illogical to think that god himself wrote the bible. With this being a given you must draw the conclusion that man wrote it. If man wrote the bible how do you know it is the inspired word of god and how is it different that any other holy book that claims the same things with the same amount of evidence? God seemed really talkative a few thousand years back in the old testament days but he is quite all of a sudden. It is almost like it isn't there and by using Occam's razor you can thus conclude that since god isn't necessary it likely doesn't exist.

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 12:57 AM
so with an endless number of sequences the event of anything that is physically possible happening is 100% no matter what the odds.



The probability is high, but not certain.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 01:17 AM
The probability is high, but not certain.

Of course it is when you have an endless number of sequences. If you had an endless number of lotto tickets how often would you win the lottery? Even if it wasn't certain you just admitted that it was high so why would it be illogical to think that it could happen by chance if the chance is high?

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:21 AM
Of course it is when you have an endless number of sequences. If you had an endless number of lotto tickets how often would you win the lottery? Even if it wasn't certain you just admitted that it was high so why would it be illogical to think that it could happen by chance if the chance is high?
First off, you have to overcome the staggering odds of "life" itself before you broach the conversations of random and selection. Given that numbers run into infinity....you'd be chasing your tail.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 01:30 AM
First off, you have to overcome the staggering odds of "life" itself before you broach the conversations of random and selection.

Did you ignore why chance doesn't matter in a big bang - big crunch concept? Did you see hayman's thread about the size of the universe? Did you see how we are the only life we know of? Also, your calculations took into consideration "Including what he considered to be all variables required for human beings to exist and live on a planet such as ours" and we are not the center of the universe. If it was different than today's conditions then life could adapt to it within reason of course. My point is however that the conditions don't have to be PERFECT for life to form. Just life identical for us to form. It is like dropping a ball and when it lands on a random point on a massive plane of points you say "now what are the chances that the ball would land THERE on THAT SPOT?"



Given that numbers run into infinity....you'd be chasing your tail.
How is that? btw, I don't think that infinity is a number so much as it is a concept since "endless" isn't a number at all and numbers imply a set amount which infinity is not. But again, how is it chasing my tail?

ebonarcher
January 2nd, 2010, 01:31 AM
I can see many liars here.
I'm 100% sure of it.
If you had a moment of doubt ever.....yup you lied.
Yes if you looked behind and saw just one set of feet behind and that was when your God carried you.
You may think your 100% sure, but your not.
The Bible says your going to fail over and over so why lie and say what you want others to believe. It's just going to help you fail.

as to quetions 1-5 I'd like there to be a God. But the questions you ask are wrong. I believe 100% that therei a God, He may be the God Of the bible but he is not neccesairly the way YOUR interpetion of the bible is of him/her.

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:31 AM
Of course it is when you have an endless number of sequences. If you had an endless number of lotto tickets how often would you win the lottery? Even if it wasn't certain you just admitted that it was high so why would it be illogical to think that it could happen by chance if the chance is high?

And your thinking is flawed. In your argument you have "endless" and "lotto tickets" giving you something to work with. In the hypothetical you have "endless" and nothing, certainly not life.

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:34 AM
If you had a moment of doubt ever.....yup you lied.
Nope. Since God introduced Himself to me I've never once doubted His existence. I have doubted from time to time whether I was in the proper standing before him.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 01:36 AM
The last time I checked...

The so called "Big Bang"... and "Evolution" for that matter...

are called "Theories".

What is a theory?

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:37 AM
What is a theory?

It's an idea ain't it? Kinda similar to a guess?

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 01:39 AM
I think you're on to something Pos..

it's certainly not something that we can consider to be 100% fact.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 01:40 AM
And your thinking is flawed. In your argument you have "endless" and "lotto tickets" giving you something to work with. In the hypothetical you have "endless" and nothing, certainly not life.

How is it I have nothing? If there is a looping cycle of big bang big crunch that would be consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (matter can not be created nor destroyed) and would be consistent with the universe and would explain a lot. From there you can conclude that god would not be needed to start the universe and that is when Occam's razor takes effect.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 01:42 AM
It's an idea ain't it? Kinda similar to a guess?

No, not by any means, there is the germ theory and the heliocentric theory.

http://m-w.com/dictionary/theory

the first is how science uses theory. It is entirely different than the colloquial meaning.

1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 01:43 AM
The last time I checked...

The so called "Big Bang"... and "Evolution" for that matter...

are called "Theories".

What is a theory?

so is the atomic theory and the theory of electromagnetism. Do you doubt those equally because they are only theories even though that is the highest degree you can reach in science?

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:48 AM
How is it I have nothing? If there is a looping cycle of big bang big crunch that would be consistent with the first law of thermodynamics (matter can not be created nor destroyed) and would be consistent with the universe and would explain a lot. From there you can conclude that god would not be needed to start the universe and that is when Occam's razor takes effect.
You might find it interesting if you take the time to read it.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2199

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:50 AM
No, not by any means, there is the germ theory and the heliocentric theory.
I was thinking more in the "mud to man" theory. Maybe you've got some documentation I ain't privy to?

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 01:55 AM
I know you're a science person. What do you think about the current MMGW scam? Is the science really settled? Boy it's really sad watching our liberal gov't trying to down play those emails!

What do you think about GORE's prediction that the polar ice caps will be gone in 5-6 years..

kinda funny how his source denied giving him that info when asked.


What do think about the quotes in this forum about Scientists never being wrong... will get back to you on the title of the thread in a minute.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 01:57 AM
Ah, I found it... "Scientists and Biologists are never wrong".

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 01:59 AM
Ah, I found it... "Scientists and Biologists are never wrong".

http://www.blip.tv/file/2897587/

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 02:00 AM
You might find it interesting if you take the time to read it.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2199

The article sites some cosmologists that seem to think that the universe will expand forever but that is in violation of the second law of thermodynamics thus rendering the argument void. Why is it you accept the big bang theory but for some reason deny evolution? Is it because the big bang is working for you in argument? Also, the universe must be a closed system eventually because everything in the physical world was created in the big bang so then after you regress far enough you get to the point where nothing is outside and the universe is functioning in it's own bubble. Nice video

http://www.youtube.com/user/Dhorpatan#p/c/7A05D24B0DED5D30/5/UprgjJFAzLo

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 02:05 AM
The article sites some cosmologists that seem to think that the universe will expand forever but that is in violation of the second law of thermodynamics thus rendering the argument void. Why is it you accept the big bang theory but for some reason deny evolution? Is it because the big bang is working for you in argument? Also, the universe must be a closed system eventually because everything in the physical world was created in the big bang so then after you regress far enough you get to the point where nothing is outside and the universe is functioning in it's own bubble. Nice video

"Evolutionary cosmologist John Wheeler has drawn the following conclusion based on the scientific evidence: “With gravitational collapse we come to the end of time. Never out of the equations of general relativity has one been able to find the slightest argument for a ‘re-expansion’ of a ‘cyclic universe’ or anything other than an end” (1977, p. 15). As Ross has admitted: “Attempts...to use oscillation to avoid a theistic beginning for the universe all fail” (1991, p. 105). No one yet has improved on Genesis 1— “In the beginning, God created....” "

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 02:06 AM
I know you're a science person. What do you think about the current MMGW scam? Is the science really settled? Boy it's really sad watching our liberal gov't trying to down play those emails!

I find it really sad when someone presents such an obvious red herring to draw attention away from the debate at hand. So you think that an issue in climatology disprove science? Well, the man made global warming scam must disprove the existence of atoms. Now if you would just present evidence that evolution and all of biology is just a scam.


What do you think about GORE's prediction that the polar ice caps will be gone in 5-6 years..

I would think that gore is unqualified and climatology isn't my strong suit.


kinda funny how his source denied giving him that info when asked.


What do think about the quotes in this forum about Scientists never being wrong... will get back to you on the title of the thread in a minute.

I never said that they are never wrong. That is why everything is theory. Now if you would just show how the theory if evolution or the big bang -big crunch cycle is wrong and not insist on throwing out these red herrings that would contribute to debate.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 02:16 AM
"Evolutionary cosmologist John Wheeler has drawn the following conclusion based on the scientific evidence: “With gravitational collapse we come to the end of time. Never out of the equations of general relativity has one been able to find the slightest argument for a ‘re-expansion’ of a ‘cyclic universe’ or anything other than an end” (1977, p. 15). As Ross has admitted: “Attempts...to use oscillation to avoid a theistic beginning for the universe all fail” (1991, p. 105). No one yet has improved on Genesis 1— “In the beginning, God created....” "

That is because god isn't a falsifiable hypothesis so of course no one can improve on it. That is also a false dichotomy. Also the point of "they all fail" is nothing but an argument from assertion. We do observe objects collapsing on themselves from gravitational force like stars and the like. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2759-universe-might-yet-collapse-in-big-crunch.html

Quote mines among the community are common as we see in the evolution/ creationism "debates"

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 02:17 AM
I wasn't trying to distract you. You seem too smart for that.

I'm merely suggesting that... along with everything else... science is corruptible by man... certainly not iron clad... even though alot of it may sound believable. Those examples were given to support my statements.

Don't necessarily need to believe it wholeheartedly just because it's got "SCIENCE" stamped on it.

In your mind, you're right... and that's fine. Not gonna try to convince you otherwise...

I'm just not one for the dust cloud hypothesis.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 02:24 AM
I wasn't trying to distract you. You seem too smart for that.

Well I do thank you for the compliment but I am far FAR from having any kind of degree in the field and I will more than likely never have one. It will more than likely just stay as a pastime. It might not have been intentional on your behalf but it was a red herring none the less.


I'm merely suggesting that... along with everything else... science is corruptible by man... certainly not iron clad... even though alot of it may sound believable. Those examples were given to support my statements.

And the bible and all religious texts are not? Do you really think that god himself in the flesh wrote the bible or did man? If you can have faith in god why don't you just have faith that science is right lol.


Don't necessarily need to believe it wholeheartedly just because it's got "SCIENCE" stamped on it.

don't need to believe it because it has "god" stamped on it.


In your mind, you're right... and that's fine. Not gonna try to convince you otherwise...

I'm just not one for the dust cloud hypothesis.

Every theory about how the universe will end is a dust cloud hypothesis and what I have said so far is about the extent of my knowledge on the topic. However, the theory of evolution is FAR from a hypothesis. It is testable, observable and makes accurate predictions.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 02:30 AM
I just rewatched the video and the universe (not the universe we usually think of. The all encompasing body of everything) is an open system. Interesting video and I will admit that there are section which I do not quite get yet. Anyway, it puts into perspective the caliber of intellectual discourse is going on in the scientific community and that really does astound me.

MN_Chick
January 2nd, 2010, 02:53 AM
How can you be so sure?

I am not only a woman, but also a mother of four. I know everything. ;)


i am 100% sure that my and your god of bible is real. and 70-80 of americans believe so. so that leaves you in low minority, and with that said you will bow down to him day. and when says leave sight for you nothing for me or beleieve in me. and your soul will be in eternal damnation. but, you are one those that knows everything, so there is no reasoning with you. therefore anyone that has witnessed to you already has your blood washed from their hands. you may as well become one with buda or ala. and we chirstains know where they going in the end. see last book of the bible plainly says we win satan loses. and eternal damnation will upon anyone that adds to the bible or takes away from it. for it is GOD'S word, and word is life. but i would not expect narrow mined people to see the differance.:wink:

Ok, where to start? It's YOUR god, not mine. I have no god, will kneel to no god and will serve no god-- no matter how much you wish me into slavery. Your god accepts free will, why can't you?

second- Most americans are christian. But only about 1/3 of the world is christian, and that makes YOU the minority. Does being in the majority then make me correct?

Third. NO reasoning with me? I am not the one who believes in a religion BASED ON FAITH. Reason has no place in christianity. I, however, hold it in high regard.

Fourth. I do not fear your hell. I will not bow to your god for fear of punishment. If, after this life, I am faced with a god who sees himself fit to judge me on who I was and how I lived, then I have no fear. If I am faced with a god who sees himself worthy to judge me on which fairy tale I believed in- I don't want to spend eternity with said god anyway. Send me to hell, both the god and I will be happier for it.

Fifth. Allah is the same god as YHWH- just a different name. Buddha is not a god, but a teacher/ role model, why would I try to become one with him?

Sixth. The last book of the bible is about the fall of Rome, not the end of the world.

Seventh. Winking after an attempted, direct insult does not make you look friendly. I am far more open minded than many here, as I am willing to respect each person's right to believe in whatever they so choose. As long as it's not hurting anyone else, live the way you deem fit. If you are going to try to insult someone, know who it is you speak to.

I'm sure there is more I could add, but some of the posr was not very clear and I can't be sure what you were trying to say.

Indychris
January 2nd, 2010, 03:13 AM
I am 100% convinced of the reality of the God of the Bible. I believe it when He states, "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,"

Like Job, I carry with me the confidence that one day in my flesh I will see the Lord and that so doing will fill me with unimaginable awe and unbelievable comfort. :shade:

ebonarcher
January 2nd, 2010, 03:27 AM
But job fell

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 09:44 AM
Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

drenalinxt
January 2nd, 2010, 12:12 PM
MN_Chick
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MN, Minneapolis area
Posts: 2,069

Quote:
Originally Posted by posco
How can you be so sure?

I am not only a woman, but also a mother of four. I know everything.

NOW YOU KNOW THAT KNOWS EVERYTHING.
she is all knowing. so sad.:thumbs_do

Indychris
January 2nd, 2010, 02:32 PM
But job fell

Please explain.

hayman
January 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
MN_Chick
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MN, Minneapolis area
Posts: 2,069

Quote:
Originally Posted by posco
How can you be so sure?

I am not only a woman, but also a mother of four. I know everything.

NOW YOU KNOW THAT KNOWS EVERYTHING.
she is all knowing. so sad.:thumbs_do

Huh?:confused:

MN_Chick
January 2nd, 2010, 02:41 PM
MN_Chick
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MN, Minneapolis area
Posts: 2,069

Quote:
Originally Posted by posco
How can you be so sure?

I am not only a woman, but also a mother of four. I know everything.

NOW YOU KNOW THAT KNOWS EVERYTHING.
she is all knowing. so sad.:thumbs_do

Yes, and she even has a sense of humor. You should have asked for one for giftmas.


Huh?:confused:

Change "that" to "she". I, apparently, don't even rank as a human. Women are just things. You know how it goes.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 03:19 PM
"It is testable, observable and makes accurate predictions."

So does the Bible Robinhooder...so does the Bible.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. That's one of the things that makes America great.

Have a good weekend.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 03:25 PM
"Sixth. The last book of the bible is about the fall of Rome, not the end of the world."

I thought you said you read the Bible? The new testament is largely about the second coming of Christ.

Here are a few Chapters to refer to...

Matt 24
Luke 21

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 03:29 PM
Sorry MN Chick,
I misread your post...

the book of Revelations also gives in great detail the return of Christ as an event that will happen in the future.

Revelations... to reveal something that has previously been hidden.

hayman
January 2nd, 2010, 03:41 PM
Sorry MN Chick,
I misread your post...

the book of Revelations also gives in great detail the return of Christ as an event that will happen in the future.

Revelations... to reveal something that has previously been hidden.

Really, and when will this happen?

MN_Chick
January 2nd, 2010, 03:45 PM
Really, and when will this happen?

According to Jesus, before all of the apostles died. Guess he got lost and wouldn't stop to ask for directions?

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 05:04 PM
regarding the day or the hour, no man knoweth....

it will come as a snare on all of those who inhabit the earth.

hayman
January 2nd, 2010, 05:07 PM
regarding the day or the hour, no man knoweth....

it will come as a snare on all of those who inhabit the earth.

How convenient

MoBo Act 4:12
January 2nd, 2010, 05:18 PM
How convenient

You're just mad Jesus won't tell ya. :lol:

Why do you think you're so special?.....or deserve priority over everyone else to know. It doesn't bother me not knowing.

Back i see.

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 05:34 PM
Hayman,
These are not my words...
refer to Matthew 24 in the New Testament.. KJV

hayman
January 2nd, 2010, 05:37 PM
Hayman,
These are not my words...
refer to Matthew 24 in the New Testament.. KJV

And they are not any gods words either. Feel free to prove it.

:darkbeer:

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 05:40 PM
whatever you say dude..

if you all won't at least take the time to read it, then I guess there's no use trying to discuss what the word says... (with those who don't know it).

guess we'll just have to wait and see.

drenalinxt
January 2nd, 2010, 06:29 PM
whatever you say dude..

if you all won't at least take the time to read it, then I guess there's no use trying to discuss what the word says... (with those who don't know it).

guess we'll just have to wait and see.

those are the ones that will sadly take a mark. and their blood is washed from your hands as the word of GOD says. so it useless to think that those with a mind set like that really believe in heaven or hell,and those peopleare the ones that will be partyin in hades. the greats lie ever told, is by satan making them belive he does not exsist. and he is winning with some. but i stand on fact. and the fact is the bible last words of GOD. plainly tells we win and satan loses. :thumbs_up and it will eternal hades for anyone who adds to or takes away from this book. so can you say PERFECT. :thumbs_up

kraven
January 2nd, 2010, 07:00 PM
but i stand on fact. and the fact is

No, that's belief. Facts are provable.

Words have meaning for a reason. Fact and belief, not the same thing.

drenalinxt
January 2nd, 2010, 07:50 PM
No, that's belief. Facts are provable.

Words have meaning for a reason. Fact and belief, not the same thing.

and i suppose you can prove different? lets see you prove me different.

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 08:22 PM
i am 100% sure that my and your god of bible is real. and 70-80 of americans believe so. so that leaves you in low minority, and with that said you will bow down to him day.


Hey buddy, I hate to tell you but in the scientific and itellectual arena YOU are a vast minority. You know just so long as we are playing the logical fallacy of appeal to authority and population and all. How are you 100% sure?


and when says leave sight for you nothing for me or beleieve in me. and your soul will be in eternal damnation.
This violates my 3 criteria for tolerating religion.
1.) don't obstruct scientific research and education
2.) do not threaten me with eternal damnation just because I don't belive in your version of a dime in a dozen magic man
3.) DO NOT show up on my doorstep at 9:00 A.M on sunday

Tell me how do you know this? You must admit that the bible was written by man so seeing as your story book has just as much evidence as the other guy's why don't you convert to that religion? How is god any different than Hitler (aside from the fact that we know Hitler existed)? He tourchers millions (no I'm sorry, billions) of people in eternal hell fire, rules over his kingdom with an iron fist, makes the people think he good when he does the above and has the largest cult of personality that has ever existed. I would put my money on god being WORSE than Hitler. I.M.O it takes a very sick and horrible person to so happily romanticize and imagine about the eternal damnation of his enemies only because they don't agree with him. Are you really such a sadist that you get this kind of pleasure for not only supporting a god that would do that but blindly support it with the utmost glee? That my friend is very sad and disturbing.


but, you are one those that knows everything, so there is no reasoning with you.
No, YOU are claiming to everything, IE: the mind of an all knowing deity. There is no reasoning with you because you have already drawn your conclusion so why cry and complain about US being closed minded?


therefore anyone that has witnessed to you already has your blood washed from their hands. you may as well become one with buda or ala. and we chirstains know where they going in the end.

No, you SPECULATE what will happen.


see last book of the bible plainly says we win satan loses. and eternal damnation will upon anyone that adds to the bible or takes away from it. for it is GOD'S word, and word is life

No, it is man's word seeing as man wrote the bible and not god himself in the flesh. What really matters is that you prove the validity of the last book of the bible. So then, if anyone adds or takes away goes to hell, why don't you learn Arabic and read the originals and not be lead astray by the American's additions.

.
but i would not expect narrow mined people to see the differance.:wink:

and I wouldn't expect small minded people to admit they are wrong. :wink: see I winked so it is more pleasant.

sticshooter
January 2nd, 2010, 08:30 PM
Hey buddy, I hate to tell you but in the scientific and itellectual arena YOU are a vast minority. You know just so long as we are playing the logical fallacy of appeal to authority and population and all. How are you 100% sure?


This violates my 3 criteria for tolerating religion.
1.) don't obstruct scientific research and education
2.) do not threaten me with eternal damnation just because I don't belive in your version of a dime in a dozen magic man
3.) DO NOT show up on my doorstep at 9:00 A.M on sunday

Tell me how do you know this? You must admit that the bible was written by man so seeing as your story book has just as much evidence as the other guy's why don't you convert to that religion? How is god any different than Hitler (aside from the fact that we know Hitler existed)? He tourchers millions (no I'm sorry, billions) of people in eternal hell fire, rules over his kingdom with an iron fist, makes the people think he good when he does the above and has the largest cult of personality that has ever existed. I would put my money on god being WORSE than Hitler. I.M.O it takes a very sick and horrible person to so happily romanticize and imagine about the eternal damnation of his enemies only because they don't agree with him. Are you really such a sadist that you get this kind of pleasure for not only supporting a god that would do that but blindly support it with the utmost glee? That my friend is very sad and disturbing.


No, YOU are claiming to everything, IE: the mind of an all knowing deity. There is no reasoning with you because you have already drawn your conclusion so why cry and complain about US being closed minded?



No, you SPECULATE what will happen.



No, it is man's word seeing as man wrote the bible and not god himself in the flesh. What really matters is that you prove the validity of the last book of the bible. So then, if anyone adds or takes away goes to hell, why don't you learn Arabic and read the originals and not be lead astray by the American's additions.

.

and I wouldn't expect small minded people to admit they are wrong. :wink: see I winked so it is more pleasant.:ROFLMAO: watch them insults. just because ya got no proof . And just because you you can;t handle people knowing more then to trust evolutionists is no need to get all whiny and call names.:wink:

cynic
January 2nd, 2010, 08:36 PM
I read the last few posts and had to just laugh out loud...

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 08:37 PM
:ROFLMAO: watch them insults. just because ya got no proof . And just because you you can;t handle people knowing more then to trust evolutionists is no need to get all whiny and call names.:wink:

Was he not insulting mnchick? Atheism is a negative. It is a LACK of belief thus needs no evidence just like you don't need evidence for the lack of existence of santa clause. BTW, just ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there. You obviously never watch any of our videos nor read the links so how do you know there is no evidence? You have far less for your magic man so why do you bug us for evidence when you don't require any yourself

wvbearman
January 2nd, 2010, 08:39 PM
"BTW, just ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there. You obviously never watch any of our videos nor read the links so how do you know there is no evidence? You have far less for your magic man so why do you bug us for evidence when you don't require any yourself"

Put the shoe on the other foot....the same can be said for Atheists who do not read the Bible...

This is an argument that will not be settled until the end...

why waste any more time discussing it? I doub't anyone is going to change anyone else's beliefs here. Let's talk about something we can somewhat agree on. I know, how bout bow huntin! LOL

posco
January 2nd, 2010, 08:42 PM
This violates my 3 criteria for tolerating religion.
1.) don't obstruct scientific research and education
2.) do not threaten me with eternal damnation just because I don't belive in your version of a dime in a dozen magic man
3.) DO NOT show up on my doorstep at 9:00 A.M on sunday


I concur!

1.) Don't obstruct scientific research and education by pretending Darwinian evolution and MMGW are settled science.

2.) Don't threaten me with ocean front property if I don't quit driving my eight cylinder pick-up truck.

3.) Quit being omnipresent every time I turn around proclaiming #1 above is true.

sticshooter
January 2nd, 2010, 09:13 PM
Was he not insulting mnchick? Atheism is a negative. It is a LACK of belief thus needs no evidence just like you don't need evidence for the lack of existence of santa clause. BTW, just ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there. You obviously never watch any of our videos nor read the links so how do you know there is no evidence? You have far less for your magic man so why do you bug us for evidence when you don't require any yourselfwow talk about a :cry: settle down take a deep breath and wash your face. Then pour yourself some warm milk and relax.:wink: then come back when you man up a little and then we can continue.:thumbs_up

MoBo Act 4:12
January 2nd, 2010, 09:20 PM
quote by Robinhooder:
No, it is man's word seeing as man wrote the bible and not god himself in the flesh. What really matters is that you prove the validity of the last book of the bible. So then, if anyone adds or takes away goes to hell, why don't you learn Arabic and read the originals and not be lead astray by the American's additions.


Ahhhhh......sooooooo, you're saying if man's hands pen it, then can't really trust it huh?

Better throw all them textbooks and articles laden with molecule-to-man evolutionary teaching in the trash heap then Robin!!:wink:

drenalinxt
January 2nd, 2010, 09:27 PM
Hey buddy, I hate to tell you but in the scientific and itellectual arena YOU are a vast minority. You know just so long as we are playing the logical fallacy of appeal to authority and population and all. How are you 100% sure?


This violates my 3 criteria for tolerating religion.
1.) don't obstruct scientific research and education
2.) do not threaten me with eternal damnation just because I don't belive in your version of a dime in a dozen magic man
3.) DO NOT show up on my doorstep at 9:00 A.M on sunday

Tell me how do you know this? You must admit that the bible was written by man so seeing as your story book has just as much evidence as the other guy's why don't you convert to that religion? How is god any different than Hitler (aside from the fact that we know Hitler existed)? He tourchers millions (no I'm sorry, billions) of people in eternal hell fire, rules over his kingdom with an iron fist, makes the people think he good when he does the above and has the largest cult of personality that has ever existed. I would put my money on god being WORSE than Hitler. I.M.O it takes a very sick and horrible person to so happily romanticize and imagine about the eternal damnation of his enemies only because they don't agree with him. Are you really such a sadist that you get this kind of pleasure for not only supporting a god that would do that but blindly support it with the utmost glee? That my friend is very sad and disturbing.


No, YOU are claiming to everything, IE: the mind of an all knowing deity. There is no reasoning with you because you have already drawn your conclusion so why cry and complain about US being closed minded?



No, you SPECULATE what will happen.



No, it is man's word seeing as man wrote the bible and not god himself in the flesh. What really matters is that you prove the validity of the last book of the bible. So then, if anyone adds or takes away goes to hell, why don't you learn Arabic and read the originals and not be lead astray by the American's additions.

.

and I wouldn't expect small minded people to admit they are wrong. :wink: see I winked so it is more pleasant.

SO WHY DON'T YOU PROVE DIFFERENTLY, THAT YOU ARE 100% RIGHT. HUH
YOU CAN'T DO IT THAT WHY. NEITHER CAN THE OTHER GUY. SO THEREFORE YOU ARE IN LIMBO AREN'T YOU. I AM NOT, CAUSE SCIENCE HAS ALREADY PROVED. AND I AM NOT WHINING, YOUR THE ONLY WHINER SO FAR, EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN HAVING INTELLEGENT CONVERSATION.
AND I'LL BET YOU DON'T HOW TO READ ARABIC. AND IF YOU WANT TO CLAIM GOD AS HITLER THAT IS YOUR CLAIM. I WON'T SUFFERING FROM IT. WHAT YA THINK? :wink:
SCIENCE IS A JOKE AND HAS NOT PROVED DITTLY SQUAT. GLOBAL WARMING HAS ORVEN THAT!!!!LOL

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 11:17 PM
Ahhhhh......sooooooo, you're saying if man's hands pen it, then can't really trust it huh?

Better throw all them textbooks and articles laden with molecule-to-man evolutionary teaching in the trash heap then Robin!!:wink:

No, I don't claim that the science books are holy word inspired by a god. If you make the claim however then the burden of proof is on you. I am merely saying that you say that god wrote the bible or inspired it and I am asking how you know that seeing as we already KNOW that the bible is written by man. If it is written by man and only claims to be inspired by god how is it different than any other holy book?

Robinhooder3
January 2nd, 2010, 11:56 PM
SO WHY DON'T YOU PROVE DIFFERENTLY, THAT YOU ARE 100% RIGHT. HUH

Prove what? Evolution? I have offered many videos in past topics that present the evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2#p/u/3/JgyTVT3dqGY

http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2#p/u/104/i1fGkFuHIu0

http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2#p/u/95/-CvX_mD5weM

http://www.youtube.com/user/DonExodus2#p/u/56/eblrphIwoJQ

start here. I also don't want to hijack this thread so take any rebuttals to the evolution threads. If you are asking me to prove atheism it can not be done because it is a negative. It is a LACK of belief so thus can not be disprove. Again, it would be like me asking you to show me proof that santa clause does not exist. I am not 100% certain that no god exists. I am just 99.99% sure that the christian god does not because of contradiction and I am about 95%ish sure there are NO gods.


YOU CAN'T DO IT THAT WHY. NEITHER CAN THE OTHER GUY. SO THEREFORE YOU ARE IN LIMBO AREN'T YOU. I AM NOT, CAUSE SCIENCE HAS ALREADY PROVED. AND I AM NOT WHINING, YOUR THE ONLY WHINER SO FAR, EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN HAVING INTELLEGENT CONVERSATION.

How has this not been intellectual? You are worshiping a god that is worse than Hitler and you are the one who has been professing your fantasy about mnchick, me and every other atheist burning in hell. That is sick, twisted and only showing some of that christ like love for fellow man :rolleyes: How is that being intellectual on your behalf.


AND I'LL BET YOU DON'T HOW TO READ ARABIC.

never claimed I did. If anyone who adds or takes away is doomed to hell then why are reading those english perversions? Why shouldn't god just give christians a special ability to read one language for a master script to be written so nothing gets lost in translation?


AND IF YOU WANT TO CLAIM GOD AS HITLER THAT IS YOUR CLAIM. I WON'T SUFFERING FROM IT. WHAT YA THINK? :wink:

No, I am not saying that god IS hitler. I am saying that god is far worse than Hitler. You don't have any rebuttal to the point because if you did you would have posted it. Face it, you are worshiping the very system that many people hate to be applied here. And you WANT to spend eternity there. I won't be suffering for it either because blasphemy is a victimless crime. See look, the dictator doesn't like it when you talk bad about him does he? He is the most loving deity in the world isn't he? Lol, I know this has no relevance to the being's existence and this does sound like an appeal to emotion but when discussing the benevolence of an eternal dictator one must venture into emotional reason.


SCIENCE IS A JOKE AND HAS NOT PROVED DITTLY SQUAT. GLOBAL WARMING HAS ORVEN THAT!!!!LOL

So you are going to deny the existence of atoms, germs, the heliocentric theory, the general theory of relativity, the theory of electromagnetism and everything in science? Why go to a doctor at all and not a faith healer? Global warming hasn't thrown over anything and in order to disprove it you would have to rely on science which is what you just dismissed.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:00 AM
I concur!

1.) Don't obstruct scientific research and education by pretending Darwinian evolution and MMGW are settled science.

2.) Don't threaten me with ocean front property if I don't quit driving my eight cylinder pick-up truck.

3.) Quit being omnipresent every time I turn around proclaiming #1 above is true.

Darwinian evolution IS settled science. It has been settled long ago. What on earth are you talking about with number 2 and isn't number 3 special pleading? You profess your ideology as fact (baseless) when science is ready to admit it is theory and is able to reform ideas when evidence comes about.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:07 AM
wow talk about a :cry: settle down take a deep breath and wash your face. Then pour yourself some warm milk and relax.:wink: then come back when you man up a little and then we can continue.:thumbs_up

I am not getting emotional and do not need to wash my face. You are the one that needs to grow up and this coming from a 17 year old should say something. You have not addressed a single one of my points EVER and you only ever respond with :lol: or AMEN BROTHER. You contribute nothing to the debate so save the bandwidth and come back when you have an argument.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:31 AM
Darwinian evolution IS settled science. Come again???

Ocean front property...we're all going to drown with a twenty foot sea level rise.

You guys!:confused:

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:38 AM
Come again???

Ocean front property...we're all going to drown with a twenty foot sea level rise.

You guys!:confused:

ah, I see. Again, why do you rely on rely on climatology to disprove biology? It would be like be saying that because islam is wrong that means religion is wrong and that means that Christianity is wrong.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:43 AM
You profess your ideology as fact (baseless) when science is ready to admit it is theory and is able to reform ideas when evidence comes about.
When, I mean if, yeah, if you guys actually get this nailed down I'll be the first to concede...until then, just admit you've got some ideas. Nothing wrong with having ideas, I've got some of my own but you collectively look foolish when you play your hand all aces when you've only got a pair.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:46 AM
ah, I see. Again, why do you rely on rely on climatology to disprove biology?
It nicely demonstrates groupthink and peer pressure...we've seen what peer review can manifest.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:49 AM
When, I mean if, yeah, if you guys actually get this nailed down I'll be the first to concede...until then, just admit you've got some ideas. Nothing wrong with having ideas, I've got some of my own but you collectively look foolish when you play your hand all aces when you've only got a pair.

and another argument from assertion. Do you ignore every video or link that I post? We have evidence and ignoring it won't make it go away. we don't have all aces, we have a royal flush.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:50 AM
It nicely demonstrates groupthink and peer pressure...we've seen what peer review can manifest.

how did evolution get so many peers to begin with? Scientists had to abandon creationism. Again it is like me saying that islam is wrong so thus religion is wrong thus christianity is wrong.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:51 AM
Do you ignore every video or link that I post?
Yeah, for the most part but don't take it personally, I've seen most of it before multiple times. You very well could be Warb. Not to be construed as a compliment.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:53 AM
Yeah, for the most part but don't take it personally, I've seen most of it before multiple times. You very well could be Warb. Not to be construed as a compliment.

I am not warb but thanks for the compliment. Why is it you think I am warb? even if I am then how does that invalidate my arguments? btw, I have never seen these videos or points presented. Just got done sifting through a few dozen pages of prior evolution debate and many if not all of my points have been brought up before. You now have no room for calling us closed minded.

wvbearman
January 3rd, 2010, 12:55 AM
I think it would be foolish to lump all "Science" into one category or stereotype... just the same as lumping all "Religions" as the same.

This statement can be used to help strengthen both arguements... but the bottom line is... you're gonna believe what you want to believe.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:56 AM
how did evolution get so many peers to begin with?
Progressives/leftists...the anti-god folk took control of our univerity systems.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:57 AM
I think it would be foolish to lump all "Science" into one category or stereotype
I do too but it serves my purpose well...and it's great fun!

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 12:58 AM
I think it would be foolish to lump all "Science" into one category or stereotype... just the same as lumping all "Religions" as the same.

That is the exact point I am making


This statement can be used to solidify both arguements... but the bottom line is... you're gonna believe what you want to believe.

Not always, I used to be religious and very much christian. People do change.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 01:02 AM
Progressives/leftists...the anti-god folk took control of our univerity systems.

evolution has nothing to say on politics just like the theory of gravity has nothing to say on the issue of presidential elections. Also, there are many theistic evolutionists. a good portion of Americans are theistic evolutionists. Just ask mohr. They changed because of evidence that I have presented. Before Darwin many scientists were creationists. If they really are that subject to peer pressure they should still be creationists. why do you think that it is a giant conspiracy? In order to conclude it is false you would need to come to that conclusion scientifically but you don't much like science do you?

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 01:05 AM
I do too but it serves my purpose well...and it's great fun!

so then why use an argument that you know is fallacious?

wvbearman
January 3rd, 2010, 01:08 AM
Posco,
Yes, MMGW is a real laugher...

I guess I could see how... as a climatologist...if someones willing to pay me many millions of dollars to say that man is causing Global Warming... I'm gonna say "Heck yea, it's happening"!! Lol

I guess some science is solid, and some has plenty of holes in it.
I'm not much of a believer of man coming from a rock.. or from an ape..

As a Christian, I'll admit that the Bible is hard to understand sometimes, but I also believe that we are not supposed to know everything. As a student of the bible, I do understand enough of it to believe that it is real.

You think that science has proven enough for you to believe that there is no God.. but you do not have all of the answers either.

sticshooter
January 3rd, 2010, 01:11 AM
so then why use an argument that you know is fallacious?ya got nothing. well ya got faith in k monkey to man and chitty chitty bang bang something from nothing. and thats what ya got.
:wink::darkbeer:

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 01:19 AM
ya got nothing. well ya got faith in k monkey to man and chitty chitty bang bang something from nothing. and thats what ya got.
:wink::darkbeer:

another brash argument from assertion. Just because you say it is true that doesn't mean it is. Do you as well ignore every video or link given? Again, come back when you have an argument.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 01:27 AM
Posco,
Yes, MMGW is a real laugher...

I guess I could see how... as a climatologist...if someones willing to pay me many millions of dollars to say that man is causing Global Warming... I'm gonna say "Heck yea, it's happening"!! Lol

I guess some science is solid, and some has plenty of holes in it.

One of those theories with holes is the atomic theory. Just because there are holes that doesn't mean that the theory is wrong.


I'm not much of a believer of man coming from a rock.. or from an ape..

neither do I. We did not come from a rock, we came from simpler and more primordial protocells. We also didn't come from apes because we ARE apes. It is like complaining about ducks evolving from birds.


As a Christian, I'll admit that the Bible is hard to understand sometimes, but I also believe that we are not supposed to know everything. As a student of the bible, I do understand enough of it to believe that it is real.

for me it wasn't because it was hard to understand, it was because of philosophical contradiction and scientific laughability.


You think that science has proven enough for you to believe that there is no God.. but you do not have all of the answers either.

so, "we don't know" doesn't automatically equal "magic man did it" by default. I am not afraid to say there are things I don't know. For centuries (in fact since man's origin) we have tried to attribute "we don't know" to a magic man. This explanation has failed every last time. What makes rainbows? God. Why is metal shiny? God. What is sickness? god's punishment. Where did life come from? god. You do see where I am going with this right? The role of what god has been responsible for has been steadily decreasing and has a rather poor track record.

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 02:23 AM
No, I don't claim that the science books are holy word inspired by a god. If you make the claim however then the burden of proof is on you. I am merely saying that you say that god wrote the bible or inspired it and I am asking how you know that seeing as we already KNOW that the bible is written by man. If it is written by man and only claims to be inspired by god how is it different than any other holy book?

Oh really??

Well!.....you evo's claim evolution is fact. So the burden of proof is equally on you then!

We know how that works out for ya!:rolleyes:

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 02:30 AM
and another argument from assertion. Do you ignore every video or link that I post? We have evidence and ignoring it won't make it go away. we don't have all aces, we have a royal flush.

It's not that we ignore it Robin......it's that what you present isn't the "clincher" evidence you project. Not even close. And acting as if it always gets ignored, just because we don't accept it as you'd like us to, doesn't help your character out either.

That Robin....is called "assertion".

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 02:34 AM
another brash argument from assertion. Just because you say it is true that doesn't mean it is. Do you as well ignore every video or link given? Again, come back when you have an argument.

Actually Robin.....his argument isn't from assertion. You saying he's asserting is an assertion. Stic is quite right. You don't really have anything. Just assumptions based on an atheistic worldview.

kraven
January 3rd, 2010, 09:36 AM
and i suppose you can prove different? lets see you prove me different.

Your faiths are not proven facts. Don't get your knickers in a knot. Use the right words. That's why we have dictionaries and classes where teachers try to learn you the difference.

There are people who hold Thor as their God in this world. That doesn't mean they can prove Thor's existence and claim it as fact.

posco
January 3rd, 2010, 12:19 PM
A chickadee, chicken and a condor is about as persuasive. :confused:

sticshooter
January 3rd, 2010, 12:28 PM
a chickadee, chicken and a condor is about as persuasive. :confused::roflmao:

sticshooter
January 3rd, 2010, 12:29 PM
and another argument from assertion. Do you ignore every video or link that I post? We have evidence and ignoring it won't make it go away. we don't have all aces, we have a royal flush.

but you guys have NO proof...only fairy tails. ya all gots NOTING. thats just a fact. :darkbeer:

kraven
January 3rd, 2010, 01:01 PM
Having Stic on ignore saves me a lot of facepalming. Should have done it long ago.


Posco, I'm not claiming that evolution is infallible. I'm just saying. Nothing that isn't proven should be presented as fact.

People want to believe in evolution and forget it's a theory. People want to believe in Baron Samedi and forget it's a faith thing.
People are human. But, we didn't get MRI devices, overhead cam engines, the 1911 handgun, open heart surgery, and thick center cut bacon by sitting around and having faith in theories.

Enough talk for me. I'm going to shoot my bow and read by the fire. Got a copy of _Under The Dome_ for Christmas and it's 17F here.

hayman
January 3rd, 2010, 01:18 PM
Having Stic on ignore saves me a lot of facepalming. Should have done it long ago.

Posco, I'm not claiming that evolution is infallible. I'm just saying. Nothing that isn't proven should be presented as fact.

People want to believe in evolution and forget it's a theory. People want to believe in Baron Samedi and forget it's a faith thing.
People are human. But, we didn't get MRI devices, overhead cam engines, the 1911 handgun, open heart surgery, and thick center cut bacon by sitting around and having faith in theories.

Enough talk for me. I'm going to shoot my bow and read by the fire. Got a copy of _Under The Dome_ for Christmas and it's 17F here.

That IS a great feature. :darkbeer:

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 03:19 PM
A chickadee, chicken and a condor is about as persuasive. :confused:

lol....and i'd like to see their illustration for Dinosaur to bird evolution too!:confused:

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 03:26 PM
Oh really??

Well!.....you evo's claim evolution is fact. So the burden of proof is equally on you then!

We know how that works out for ya!:rolleyes:

so the independently constructed yet perfectly and seamlessly complimentary phylogenetic trees of life, position of e.r.vs in in our genome and that of chimps, the transitional fossils, the experiments that show increases of information, the fused 2nd chromosome, the fulfilled predictions and the like isn't evidence?


It's not that we ignore it Robin......it's that what you present isn't the "clincher" evidence you project. Not even close. And acting as if it always gets ignored, just because we don't accept it as you'd like us to, doesn't help your character out either.

That Robin....is called "assertion".

Yes you do ignore it, many of you even admit to it. If you would actually watch and address them we could have debate but no. You claim to watch them and the only thing you have to criticize them is to make fun of usernames.

Actually Robin.....his argument isn't from assertion. You saying he's asserting is an assertion. Stic is quite right. You don't really have anything. Just assumptions based on an atheistic worldview.

first of all you are throwing rocks in a glass house talking about presumed world views. You and other proudly parade it in 36 font and hold that to be one of your biggest virtues. And again, you are just arguing from assertion. If you would watch the videos I present you would see how fallacious you are truly being.

RUMMY
January 3rd, 2010, 03:29 PM
for me it wasn't because it was hard to understand, it was because of philosophical contradiction and scientific laughability............
I am not afraid to say there are things I don't know.Then you should have no problem admitting you know very little about the Bible! Your own lack of knowledge leads you to believe there are philosophical contradictions when there are none! Where does the Bible attempt to scientifically detail exactly how God accomplished all that He did?

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 03:30 PM
lol....and i'd like to see their illustration for Dinosaur to bird evolution too!:confused:

...

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 03:36 PM
Then you should have no problem admitting you know very little about the Bible! Your own lack of knowledge leads you to believe there are philosophical contradictions when there are none! Where does the Bible attempt to scientifically detail exactly how God accomplished all that He did?

Tell me, where in the bible does it scientifically detail how god did it. I thought miracles were supernatural and thus could not be explained by science. There are philosophical issues with omnipotence and omniscience, there are issues with benevolence and hell and there are issues with omniscience and benevolence. Show me where the bible presents evidence for it's own claims and I will take it more seriously. Until then it is just circular reasoning with "god exists because the bible says so. The bible is right because god says it is" and it is like using a jaguar sales book to show that jaguars are the best cars.

athomPT
January 3rd, 2010, 03:52 PM
100% sure that the God of the Bible is real!!!!!!!

+1 :thumbs_up

RUMMY
January 3rd, 2010, 03:54 PM
Tell me, where in the bible does it scientifically detail how god did it.You claimed the Bible was scientifically laughable in post 137. Repeating the question I asked you, does nothing to further your position.

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 04:08 PM
=Robinhooder3;1056573499]so the independently constructed yet perfectly and seamlessly complimentary phylogenetic trees of life, position of e.r.vs in in our genome and that of chimps, the transitional fossils, the experiments that show increases of information, the fused 2nd chromosome, the fulfilled predictions and the like isn't evidence?

Robin, i've addressed those points either recently, or on one of the other evolution threads in the past. There's a valid thorough explanation by Creation scientists for each and every one of those topics you mention.
You just dismiss their rebuttals or points because of the "creation" tag in front of their scientific degrees!


Robinhooder:
Yes you do ignore it, many of you even admit to it. If you would actually watch and address them we could have debate but no. You claim to watch them and the only thing you have to criticize them is to make fun of usernames.

Geez, rib you about a dude named potholer one time and you stereotype me on all your links. Bad form Robin. And how many of those links/articles that i and others [and that you and others so smugly and repeatedly demanded] provided, did you actually thoroughly go over???


Robinhooder:
first of all you are throwing rocks in a glass house talking about presumed world views. You and other proudly parade it in 36 font and hold that to be one of your biggest virtues. And again, you are just arguing from assertion. If you would watch the videos I present you would see how fallacious you are truly being.

36 font???:confused: Please explain and point to it! 3D's "one" post maybe?

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you post by post, repetitiously
repeat the words "argue from assertion"? You're like a doll with a pull string....mention evolution/creation, and we have Robin saying "You're just arguing from assertion". With an occasional "bald" throwed in often!
Kinda like a default comment.

sticshooter
January 3rd, 2010, 04:11 PM
...OOOOO PICTURES NICE:confused: But they mean nothing as far as proof goes. But i always like looking at them. They are always good for:set1_rolf2:

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 04:13 PM
...

Pretty inconclusive at best Robin. Especially when evidence to back it up is required. What's that word you use" debunked"?.....those supposed fossils to support this theory have been "debunked" already!

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 04:16 PM
You claimed the Bible was scientifically laughable in post 137. Repeating the question I asked you, does nothing to further your position.

to claim that plants came before the sun and to say that bats are birds is laughable.

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 04:36 PM
Robin, i've addressed those points either recently, or on one of the other evolution threads in the past. There's a valid thorough explanation by Creation scientists for each and every one of those topics you mention.
You just dismiss their rebuttals or points because of the "creation" tag in front of their scientific degrees!

You have never touched on the phylogenetic trees, the fused second chromosome nor the experiments that show increases in information. This is ignoring the faulty articles that you tried to present that tried to debunk the other claims.




Geez, rib you about a dude named potholer one time and you stereotype me on all your links. Bad form Robin.
And how many of those links/articles that i and others [and that you and others so smugly and repeatedly demanded] provided, did you actually thoroughly go over???

Geez mobo, try to think that I am inconsistent and stereotype all atheists, bad form mobo. I went over the ones like "what is the STONGEST evidence for a young earth and the ones about the "myths of evolution that won't die" type stuff. You know, where they summarize and present what they think their best cases are. And again, to this day you haven't tried to refute the claims made by the guy with a funny username.




36 font???:confused: Please explain and point to it! 3D's "one" post maybe?

The point is that you and many organizations you support proudly proclaim their bias.


Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you post by post, repetitiously
repeat the words "argue from assertion"? You're like a doll with a pull string....mention evolution/creation, and we have Robin saying "You're just arguing from assertion". With an occasional "bald" throwed in often!
Kinda like a default comment.

I wouldn't keep on saying them if you and others (stic most of all) didn't keep on making them.

sticshooter
January 3rd, 2010, 04:38 PM
to claim that plants came before the sun and to say that bats are birds is laughable.
as is the claim there is PROOF for evolution. It is also laughable :lol3:

MoBo Act 4:12
January 3rd, 2010, 04:44 PM
=Robinhooder3;1056574209]You have never touched on the phylogenetic trees, the fused second chromosome nor the experiments that show increases in information. This is ignoring the faulty articles that you tried to present that tried to debunk the other claims.

Hey, you guys demanded evidence or articles for Creation. I gave you plenty of them. Read them thoroughly since you "demanded" them! Instead of diverting back to evolution!



Geez mobo, try to think that I am inconsistent and stereotype all atheists, bad form mobo. I went over the ones like "what is the STONGEST evidence for a young earth and the ones about the "myths of evolution that won't die" type stuff. You know, where they summarize and present what they think their best cases are. And again, to this day you haven't tried to refute the claims made by the guy with a funny username.

I'm not "thinking" you're inconsistent.....you are inconsistent! You're a flip-flopper! First, the giraffe is responsible....no wait, Capt. Environment is responsible....no wait........
Like i said ..ideaological wreck!




The point is that you and many organizations you support proudly proclaim their bias.

And proclaiming something as fact, that isn't, isn't grossly biased??:confused:



I wouldn't keep on saying them if you and others (stic most of all) didn't keep on making them.

Sure you would. It's your default comeback!:wink:

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 04:50 PM
Pretty inconclusive at best Robin. Especially when evidence to back it up is required. What's that word you use" debunked"?.....those supposed fossils to support this theory have been "debunked" already!

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g10531h494171078/

http://www.thewildclassroom.com/biodiversity/birds/aviantopics/originandevolution.html

http://www.pbs.org/lifeofbirds/evolution/index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB46sz5eoZg&feature=related

Robinhooder3
January 3rd, 2010, 04:59 PM
Hey, you guys demanded evidence or articles for Creation. I gave you plenty of them. Read them thoroughly since you "demanded" them! Instead of diverting back to evolution!

Yea, and none of them even touched on the issues and evidences I presented.



I'm not "thinking" you're inconsistent.....you are inconsistent! You're a flip-flopper! First, the giraffe is responsible....no wait, Capt. Environment is responsible....no wait........
Like i said ..ideaological wreck!

no, it was random genetic mutation. It has always been random genetic mutation and will always be random genetic mutation. Given enough generations the odds of a beneficial mutation coming about are fairly high. You know that this argument is fallacious yet continue to knowingly spread this outright lie. The only people that are believing it is you and stic but stic just blindly follows anything you say so he doesn't really count.






And proclaiming something as fact, that isn't, isn't grossly biased??:confused:

Admittedly starting out with a pre drawn conclusion is the definition of bias. In fact, just about every creationist site some where proudly proclaims their devotion to the bible and how they will ignore any evidence to contradict it. Every creationist is religious but not all religious people are creationist.





Sure you would. It's your default comeback!:wink:

don't make them and see if I would.

RUMMY
January 3rd, 2010, 05:37 PM
to claim that plants came before the sun and to say that bats are birds is laughable.You demonstrate your ignorance of the three world ages spoken of in the Bible.[2 Peter 3:5-13] You base your assumption, that plants need the light of the sun, on man's limited knowledge. You fail to see the Light mentioned in Genesis v. 3. Surely you can not conceive of a time when perhaps, this earth will have no need of the sun.[Rev. 21:23]
You further err, by repeating the lie that the Bible says "bats are birds." The Bible does not say "bats are birds!" The Bible says; "and the bat."[Lev.11:19.,Deut. 14:18]

Though the Bible does not say "bats are birds" as some claim, and though you either ignorantly, or deceitfully repeat this lie, what if man came along thousands of years later and labeled animal groups as they would? What does that prove?

posco
January 4th, 2010, 07:59 AM
lol....and i'd like to see their illustration for Dinosaur to bird evolution too!:confused:
They've got better cartoonists...who can do that stuff with a straight face.

posco
January 4th, 2010, 08:03 AM
Nothing that isn't proven should be presented as fact.

People are human. But, we didn't get overhead cam engines, the 1911 handgun and thick center cut bacon by sitting around and having faith in theories.
Totally agree k-meister and those things you mention rank right up there with anything Francis Crick ever came up with.

scottyb
January 4th, 2010, 08:36 AM
In answer to the original question;

4. 100% sure there is no God

SMOKES
January 4th, 2010, 09:30 AM
In answer to the original question;

4. 100% sure there is no God

I respect your answer
and wondering why
would there be a expliantion as to why there is a belief there is no God

scottyb
January 4th, 2010, 03:05 PM
I respect your answer
and wondering why
would there be a expliantion as to why there is a belief there is no God

A true, loving god would take care of the children and not let them suffer.

hayman
January 4th, 2010, 03:10 PM
I respect your answer
and wondering why
would there be a expliantion as to why there is a belief there is no God

:darkbeer: :wink:

kraven
January 4th, 2010, 03:26 PM
Totally agree k-meister and those things you mention rank right up there with anything Francis Crick ever came up with.

Yes sir.

I have very little use for squabbling over theory here and elsewhere when there's lunch to be made (or "dinnah" as you Mainers say it.) No matter what happens in the labs and churches, we still have to get up every day and put our pants on one leg at a time.

I actually had the opportunity to devote my life to the study of theology and declined. I find motorcycles, bowhunting, and even cooking to be more illuminating than Crick's work with regard to my own death clock and experience, as I find it more compelling than K.K. Stavrinedes lectures on the nature of God.

The world needs people like Crick. I'm happy to leave them all to their work and enjoy the signature I find when I cut two tomatoes apart and find two different but similar subjects, and then eat them mixed with other veggies and some bacon from a hog that was the same, but different, than his litter mates.

As nearly always, the truth is probably in the middle.

kraven
January 4th, 2010, 03:28 PM
A true, loving god would take care of the children and not let them suffer.

That assumes this life and its pains matter.

What if your 56 years you'll get here are only a blink compared to the eternity you get beyond the meatsack sustained by a muscle pumping viscous fluid to organic mechanics?

It wouldn't be so mean then, would it?

scottyb
January 4th, 2010, 03:41 PM
That assumes this life and its pains matter.

What if your 56 years you'll get here are only a blink compared to the eternity you get beyond the meatsack sustained by a muscle pumping viscous fluid to organic mechanics?

It wouldn't be so mean then, would it?

"What-if's" don't work with me - I live in the here-and-now.

The life and pain of ANY child matters. Just walk into the Pediatric ward at any hospital and tell me how wonderful and loving your god is.

Warbow
January 4th, 2010, 04:01 PM
100% sure we don't know anything. If you find a belief that makes you happy, then run with it.

Well, I think we know somethings, but what I find funny is that Christians are 100% sure they know the mind of a god they also consider to be unknowable. If god is a god then He can fool humans 100% perfectly, so there is no way for humans to know if the god of the bible, even if he exists, is telling the truth about anything in the bible. Any Christian who claims to know god 100% isn't really thinking about what they are claiming.


I am 100% convinced of the reality of the God of the Bible. I believe it when He states, "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,"

See above.



i am 100% sure that my and your god of bible is real. and 70-80 of americans believe so. so that leaves you in low minority, and with that said you will bow down to him day.

Hmm...so reality is based on percentages? You know, don't you, that world wide Christianity is a **minority** religion, and that Islam is growing faster than the Catholic Church (the largest Christian sect). So, based on your own reasoning, one expects that you will be shedding your Christian faith soon--or could it be that your argument from popularity doesn't actually prove squat about the truth or falsehood of the bible and that you are promulgating a fallacious argument? Pick one.

kraven
January 4th, 2010, 04:10 PM
"What-if's" don't work with me - I live in the here-and-now.

The life and pain of ANY child matters. Just walk into the Pediatric ward at any hospital and tell me how wonderful and loving your god is.

Simmer down, Frances. I'm not a believer.
I was just trying to get you to see through the cultural lens of the Christians.

However, it seems you're only looking for a fight rather than a discussion, so I'll leave you to it.

scottyb
January 4th, 2010, 04:19 PM
Simmer down, Frances. I'm not a believer.
I was just trying to get you to see through the cultural lens of the Christians.

However, it seems you're only looking for a fight rather than a discussion, so I'll leave you to it.

Sorry, not looking for a fight.

kraven
January 4th, 2010, 04:28 PM
Sorry, not looking for a fight.

Ok then. :)
My mistake.

Red Fletch
January 4th, 2010, 04:42 PM
I am 100% certain that there will be many upset people when they find out everything they ever believed is wrong and the simple answer was right in front of their face the entire time.......Sometimes things just happen.....maybe life was a result of, the right place at the right time......:zip:

Indychris
January 4th, 2010, 05:39 PM
Well, I think we know somethings, but what I find funny is that Christians are 100% sure they know the mind of a god they also consider to be unknowable. If god is a god then He can fool humans 100% perfectly, so there is no way for humans to know if the god of the bible, even if he exists, is telling the truth about anything in the bible. Any Christian who claims to know god 100% isn't really thinking about what they are claiming.



See above.




Hmm...so reality is based on percentages? You know, don't you, that world wide Christianity is a **minority** religion, and that Islam is growing faster than the Catholic Church (the largest Christian sect). So, based on your own reasoning, one expects that you will be shedding your Christian faith soon--or could it be that your argument from popularity doesn't actually prove squat about the truth or falsehood of the bible and that you are promulgating a fallacious argument? Pick one.

I think it's time you go re-read my statement, Warb. I never stated that I know God 100%. I said I am fully convinced that He is who He claims to be in the Scriptures. BIG difference.

Robinhooder3
January 4th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Well, I think we know somethings, but what I find funny is that Christians are 100% sure they know the mind of a god they also consider to be unknowable. If god is a god then He can fool humans 100% perfectly, so there is no way for humans to know if the god of the bible, even if he exists, is telling the truth about anything in the bible. Any Christian who claims to know god 100% isn't really thinking about what they are claiming.



See above.




Hmm...so reality is based on percentages? You know, don't you, that world wide Christianity is a **minority** religion, and that Islam is growing faster than the Catholic Church (the largest Christian sect). So, based on your own reasoning, one expects that you will be shedding your Christian faith soon--or could it be that your argument from popularity doesn't actually prove squat about the truth or falsehood of the bible and that you are promulgating a fallacious argument? Pick one.

WARB!!!!!!! YOUR BACK!! :love: :love: :love: :hug: :grouphug:

Warbow
January 4th, 2010, 05:46 PM
I think it's time you go re-read my statement, Warb. I never stated that I know God 100%. I said I am fully convinced that He is who He claims to be in the Scriptures. BIG difference.

Hmm...yet you wrote this:


Originally Posted by Indychris
I am 100% convinced of the reality of the God of the Bible.

...and if the god of the bible lies then you don't know 100% the reality of that god, because to "know" a god requires knowing something about that god, doesn't it? And if the bible is a lie perpetrated by a god, then you **don't** and **can't** know the "reality" of that god. And if you think that god is all powerful then you can't argue that you know him since He can lie to you perfectly, and you have no way to know he isn't. God could be Satan. You literally have no way to know otherwise, not even in your heart, or through revelation, because a **god** can fool you perfectly in all aspects.

Warbow
January 4th, 2010, 05:48 PM
WARB!!!!!!! YOUR BACK!! :love: :love: :love: :hug: :grouphug:

Yea! But ya'll have held down the fort just fine... :cry:
:wink:

Indychris
January 4th, 2010, 06:38 PM
Hmm...yet you wrote this:



...and if the god of the bible lies then you don't know 100% the reality of that god, because to "know" a god requires knowing something about that god, doesn't it? And if the bible is a lie perpetrated by a god, then you **don't** and **can't** know the "reality" of that god. And if you think that god is all powerful then you can't argue that you know him since He can lie to you perfectly, and you have no way to know he isn't. God could be Satan. You literally have no way to know otherwise, not even in your heart, or through revelation, because a **god** can fool you perfectly in all aspects.

In that case, you need to back off of everything that you believe since if we could all be fooled by God, then nothing can really be known. You're simple assertion that there is no God can do nothing to change that, either. Even your science which you hold so sacred is suspect by your argument, as such a deceitful God could just as easily be leading you into faulty assumptions in the empirical realm.

sticshooter
January 4th, 2010, 06:44 PM
I am 100% certain that there will be many upset people when they find out everything they ever believed is wrong and the simple answer was right in front of their face the entire time.......Sometimes things just happen.....maybe life was a result of, the right place at the right time......:zip: look up the odds on that one.:wink:

Robinhooder3
January 4th, 2010, 06:46 PM
In that case, you need to back off of everything that you believe since if we could all be fooled by God, then nothing can really be known. You're simple assertion that there is no God can do nothing to change that, either. Even your science which you hold so sacred is suspect by your argument, as such a deceitful God could just as easily be leading you into faulty assumptions in the empirical realm.

by using occam's razor you can condlude that if something doesn't need to exist it more than likely doesn't. You are trying to use an argument for agnosticism seeing as this could just be a construct of a decietful diety. Possibilties, possibilities.

sticshooter
January 4th, 2010, 06:46 PM
In that case, you need to back off of everything that you believe since if we could all be fooled by God, then nothing can really be known. You're simple assertion that there is no God can do nothing to change that, either. Even your science which you hold so sacred is suspect by your argument, as such a deceitful God could just as easily be leading you into faulty assumptions in the empirical realm.Bro there just kinds being dishonest with us and themselves,. even dawkins admitted there might be ID. But he would not say God NOOOO he said maybe aliens :confused:

Warbow
January 4th, 2010, 06:47 PM
In that case, you need to back off of everything that you believe since if we could all be fooled by God, then nothing can really be known. You're simple assertion that there is no God can do nothing to change that, either. Even your science which you hold so sacred is suspect by your argument, as such a deceitful God could just as easily be leading you into faulty assumptions in the empirical realm.

...of course, of course...now we get into Nihilism and nobody knows anything!!! :tongue:

But, I'm glad you understand the implications of an omnipotent god. Once you **invoke** one, you can't make any claims of knowledge because all bets are off, and you can't claim to know god or what he wants or if there is a heaven, or **anything**... The only thing you can claim for sure is "Cogito ergo sum." So, since **you** invoke such a god, you can't also claim to know anything. I, on the other hand, don't invoke such a god and operate on the principle that unless and until proven, such a god is irrelevant since we can know nothing about such a god or the universe if such a god exists and we must operate on more practical principles and only believe what can be proven. I have a leg to stand on. You? Not so much. :wink:

Indychris
January 5th, 2010, 12:21 AM
...of course, of course...now we get into Nihilism and nobody knows anything!!! :tongue:

But, I'm glad you understand the implications of an omnipotent god. Once you **invoke** one, you can't make any claims of knowledge because all bets are off, and you can't claim to know god or what he wants or if there is a heaven, or **anything**... The only thing you can claim for sure is "Cogito ergo sum." So, since **you** invoke such a god, you can't also claim to know anything. I, on the other hand, don't invoke such a god and operate on the principle that unless and until proven, such a god is irrelevant since we can know nothing about such a god or the universe if such a god exists and we must operate on more practical principles and only believe what can be proven. I have a leg to stand on. You? Not so much. :wink:

If you want to live your life with that type of suspicion, then you're welcome to it. We're/Are you parents that way? Does that explain your seemingly inherent distrust of supreme authority? By your definition, every one of us ought to watch our mothers/fathers/aunts/uncles suspiciously because regardless of how consistently they may treat us and speak to us, they may actually have ulterior motives and may be of opposite character than that which they live during the course of their lifetime with us.

You want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it. I believe that my Heavenly Father is truthful and faithful. Both loving yet just. Is it theoretically possible that an omnipotent God could simply be yanking chains? Sure, but outside of your warbed sense of anger, hatred and suspicion toward God, I sure don't see any reason to suspect that. So, my original response stands...


I am 100% convinced of the reality of the God of the Bible. I believe it when He states, "For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,"

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 12:29 AM
You want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it.

Cynical? I'm not the one who believes in a jealous, mass-murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit. And many, probably most, Christians also believe their god tortures billions of people for all of eternity the "crime" non-belief. Now that is cynical. I think my outlook is a tad more optimistic than that of people who believe in and worship a genocidal torture god. :zip: But, if "[y]ou want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it."

Indychris
January 5th, 2010, 12:31 AM
Cynical? I'm not the one who believes in a jealous, mass-murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit. And many, probably most, Christians also believe their god tortures billions of people for all of eternity the "crime" non-belief. Now that is cynical. I think my outlook is a tad more optimistic than that of people who believe in and worship a genocidal torture god. :zip: But, if "[y]ou want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it."

Yeah, Warbow the eternal optimist. That's how I always envision you. Add to that vulnerable and transparent and I think we have the full picture. :laugh:

Shalom.

posco
January 5th, 2010, 12:33 AM
I believe that my Heavenly Father is truthful and faithful. Both loving yet just.

A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench. I remember that morning well.

RUMMY
January 5th, 2010, 01:00 AM
Cynical? I'm not the one who believes in a jealous, mass-murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit. And many, probably most, Christians also believe their god tortures billions of people for all of eternity the "crime" non-belief. Now that is cynical. I think my outlook is a tad more optimistic than that of people who believe in and worship a genocidal torture god. :zip: But, if "[y]ou want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it."The God of the Bible is not "a jealous, mass murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit." He does not torture "billions of people for all of eternity." The Bible does not claim any of this!!!

Your own outlook, whether optimistic, or bleak has no bearing on the truth. It is only your own.

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 01:36 AM
The God of the Bible is not "a jealous, mass murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit." He does not torture "billions of people for all of eternity." The Bible does not claim any of this!!!

Your own outlook, whether optimistic, or bleak has no bearing on the truth. It is only your own.

Oh, Rummy, Rummy. My post was accurate, in spite of your misgivings. The bible (http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/epn-1/VerseLists/verse038.html) explicitly says that yaweh is a jealous god, multiple times:


"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me;"
Exodus 20:5, KJV


"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose
name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"
Exodus 34:14, KJV


"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous
God."
Deuteronomy 4:24, KJV


"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them:
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,"
Deuteronomy 5:9, KJV


"(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the
anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and
destroy thee from off the face of the earth."
Deuteronomy 6:15, KJV

Strange that you would claim that the bible doesn't say that God is jealous. Don't you ever read that bible of yours? :tongue:

And he bible says that god is a mass murderer (though not in those words) and depicts multiple acts of genocide commited by god, including the global flood.

Now, as to visiting suffering and death on billions of people because two people ate a piece of fruit? That is only hinted at by the bible, but it is common Christian doctrine that God visited suffering and death billions of people when He kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden. Not all Christians hold that position, but it is very much mainstream Christian doctrine, even if you would like to distance yourself from it. Same goes for the torture of billions of people for all of eternity. Standard mainstream Christian doctrine. You may not hold it, but millions and millions of Christians do. Christianity really is a cynical religion.

drenalinxt
January 5th, 2010, 02:37 AM
you really should lay off the meth and take heed to your quotes.

quote:
(iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,")

besides i have not seen anything from you to prove that GOD does not EXIST.

it seems you are a GOD hater. hummm your mama give to much utter when you were a baby or not enough which is it? or is it your daddy didn't like you. must be something that makes you hate GOD as much, as you do, but that is your option.
just i feel for you, and sad to think of where your going to end up for eternity. and yes you will bow down before my GOD (JESUS CHRIST) one day whether you like it or not.
you would think that someone that seems to know so much about the bible such as yourself. that you can see prophecy of the book of revelation unfolding before your eyes. with politicians talking openly now about new world order and one world currency, one world church. which is going to be muslim and catholic combined.
and untill your science proves beyond a doubt that GOD is not real. i stand on what the bible says, because it was written by the spirt of GOD through man.
(the greatest LIE ever told was satan making you believe that (satan himself) does not exsits.) :wink: enough said. this conversation is over, cause you will never prove differently. :rolleyes:

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 02:48 AM
you really should lay off the meth and take heed to your quotes.

quote:
(iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,")

Well, first, the personal attack in the form of the "meth" reference bit is a forum rule violation. Second, standard Christian doctrine is that there was no suffering and death in Eden and that the suffering and death we experience today is God's punishment for the "Original Sin" committed by Adam and Eve.


besides i have not seen anything from you to prove that GOD does not EXIST.

Burden of proof is on the positive claimant, which would be **you** who claims god exists. But if you disagree with that standard of evidence and think that the burden of proof is not on the positive claimant then you would have to agree that Zeus, Xenu, Mithra, Leprechauns, Santa, unicorns and Cuthulu are all real because you have no proof that they do not exist.


it seems you are a GOD hater. hummm your mama give to much utter when you were a baby or not enough which is it? or is it your daddy didn't like you. must be something that makes you hate GOD as much, as you do, but that is your option.

Hmm...more of the if I don't believe like you do I must hate your unproven god. What a load of tosh. Do you hate Zeus? And the Tooth Fairy? Well, perhaps you do, but I don't. I don't "hate" things that aren't proven to exist, and you just cant fathom that people **actually** don't believe in your god, so you assume they "hate" your god even though you don't believe in other gods and, presumably, don't hate those gods you don't believe exist. Why do you have such double standards?


(the greatest LIE ever told was satan making you believe that (satan himself) does not exsits.) :wink: enough said. this conversation is over, cause you will never prove differently. :rolleyes:

The conversation is only over because you have to leave rather than argue since you don't have the ability to defend your claims. Now, as to Satan. How do you know that Satan isn't God? You don't. If God is evil and doesn't want you to know it you never will know it. What could be more evil than being an evil, genocidal torture god and convincing millions of people to worship you as "all loving" even as you are torturing billions of people for all of eternity? But, if you disagree, tell us what Satan would have to do to be more evil than a god who sentenced all of humanity to suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit, commits genocide on a world wide scale, and tortures billions of people forever? Do tell...

posco
January 5th, 2010, 07:57 AM
Christianity really is a cynical religion.
Why, just because I want to push "the button"? Life ain't fair, some Muslim cleric is going to get to it first.:mad: I'd blow the whole damn place up and start the evolutionary process all over again, it didn't turn out worth a turd this time around.

kraven
January 5th, 2010, 10:46 AM
Why, just because I want to push "the button"? Life ain't fair, some Muslim cleric is going to get to it first.:mad: I'd blow the whole damn place up and start the evolutionary process all over again, it didn't turn out worth a turd this time around.

I agree with you on this. Their greatest bit of courage comes from the notion that we wouldn't possibly nuke anything because we play by the rules.

Adopting their ruleset, anyone anywhere is a target regardless of gender or age.
I say we oblige their wartime rules and nuke Mecca during Ramadan. :thumbs_up

sticshooter
January 5th, 2010, 11:27 AM
you really should lay off the meth and take heed to your quotes.

quote:
(iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,")

besides i have not seen anything from you to prove that GOD does not EXIST.

it seems you are a GOD hater. hummm your mama give to much utter when you were a baby or not enough which is it? or is it your daddy didn't like you. must be something that makes you hate GOD as much, as you do, but that is your option.
just i feel for you, and sad to think of where your going to end up for eternity. and yes you will bow down before my GOD (JESUS CHRIST) one day whether you like it or not.
you would think that someone that seems to know so much about the bible such as yourself. that you can see prophecy of the book of revelation unfolding before your eyes. with politicians talking openly now about new world order and one world currency, one world church. which is going to be muslim and catholic combined.
and untill your science proves beyond a doubt that GOD is not real. i stand on what the bible says, because it was written by the spirt of GOD through man.
(the greatest LIE ever told was satan making you believe that (satan himself) does not exsits.) :wink: enough said. this conversation is over, cause you will never prove differently. :rolleyes:take it easy bro and watch the insults. But just go back and read all posts you will see its not really not God but Christians she dislikes so much Doctari showed that weeks ago. thats just warb and her crew roll.:rolleyes::wink:

rholly9135
January 5th, 2010, 12:11 PM
you really should lay off the meth and take heed to your quotes.

quote:
(iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me,")

besides i have not seen anything from you to prove that GOD does not EXIST.

it seems you are a GOD hater. hummm your mama give to much utter when you were a baby or not enough which is it? or is it your daddy didn't like you. must be something that makes you hate GOD as much, as you do, but that is your option.
just i feel for you, and sad to think of where your going to end up for eternity. and yes you will bow down before my GOD (JESUS CHRIST) one day whether you like it or not.
you would think that someone that seems to know so much about the bible such as yourself. that you can see prophecy of the book of revelation unfolding before your eyes. with politicians talking openly now about new world order and one world currency, one world church. which is going to be muslim and catholic combined.
and untill your science proves beyond a doubt that GOD is not real. i stand on what the bible says, because it was written by the spirt of GOD through man.
(the greatest LIE ever told was satan making you believe that (satan himself) does not exsits.) :wink: enough said. this conversation is over, cause you will never prove differently. :rolleyes:

It's hard to HATE god when you don't believe in god. And somehow I don't think warb hates christians, but b/c you all have such a hard time seeing that atheist's are real people that just don't believe in a god, all you see is hate. Remember, YOU CAN'T HATE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

sticshooter
January 5th, 2010, 12:37 PM
It's hard to HATE god when you don't believe in god. And somehow I don't think warb hates christians, but b/c you all have such a hard time seeing that atheist's are real people that just don't believe in a god, all you see is hate. Remember, YOU CAN'T HATE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

sure.... thats why warb and you and the rest of the crew are on here everyday bashing away. Always trying to prove(which you never will) that God in not real and evolution is. Seems if ya all were 100% sure you would debate something esle at least half the time? But it sure looks like dawkins is not the only one who is not sure what they believe. :whistle:

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 12:54 PM
sure.... thats why warb and you and the rest of the crew are on here everyday bashing away. Always trying to prove(which you never will) that God in not real and evolution is. Seems if ya all were 100% sure you would debate something esle at least half the time? But it sure looks like dawkins is not the only one who is not sure what they believe. :whistle:

Hmm...by your own logic you must be here arguing because you hate atheists...well? Which is it? Is your logic flawed or are you here because you hate atheists?

MrShake
January 5th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Cynical? I'm not the one who believes in a jealous, mass-murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit. And many, probably most, Christians also believe their god tortures billions of people for all of eternity the "crime" non-belief. Now that is cynical. I think my outlook is a tad more optimistic than that of people who believe in and worship a genocidal torture god. :zip: But, if "[y]ou want to live your life that negatively and cynically, go for it."

Genocide and torture are completely different thoughts and concepts from punishment Warbow....

But you wouldn't understand the REASONS God did what he did since you haven't studied the bible!

I know you hate this argument, and will lash out at it. But the SINGLE REASON you do not understand those who 100% believe in god, is because you are unwilling to accept it. Having a relationship with God quickly removes doubt of his existence.

rholly9135
January 5th, 2010, 01:11 PM
sure.... thats why warb and you and the rest of the crew are on here everyday bashing away. Always trying to prove(which you never will) that God in not real and evolution is. Seems if ya all were 100% sure you would debate something esle at least half the time? But it sure looks like dawkins is not the only one who is not sure what they believe. :whistle:

Is this or is it not the religious/political site? Just b/c we debate about religion and the existence of god does not mean that we hate you.

And by the way, the whole Dawkins thing is getting pretty old. You have taken a quote completely out of context and seem to use it for your childish antics every chance you get. Dawkins was merely being a good scientist, which means that you cannot ever be 100% certain on anything unless you have sound factual evidence. Therefor one cannot be 100% certain that there is a god nor 100% certain that there isn't a god. However, factual scientific data has been used to develop the theory of evolution. What do you guys have....a bible, so it must be true, wrong.

sticshooter
January 5th, 2010, 01:18 PM
Is this or is it not the religious/political site? Just b/c we debate about religion and the existence of god does not mean that we hate you.

And by the way, the whole Dawkins thing is getting pretty old. You have taken a quote completely out of context and seem to use it for your childish antics every chance you get. Dawkins was merely being a good scientist, which means that you cannot ever be 100% certain on anything unless you have sound factual evidence. Therefor one cannot be 100% certain that there is a god nor 100% certain that there isn't a god. However, factual scientific data has been used to develop the theory of evolution. What do you guys have....a bible, so it must be true, wrong.
Nah.. debate God is one thing but everyday same ole a same ole.There is alot more things to debate then how dumb people are who believe in God and how aweful God is who murders people and blah blah blah. No that is hate just that simple. as for dawkins he said what he said. i know you guys don't like it but to bad deal with it. getting old? HAHAHAHA BASHING CHRISTIANS EVERYDAY IS GETTING OLD . anyone who wants to see it can just go back on posts for say the last year and read it for themselves everything from God is a murderer to Jesus is the king of the zombies...yeah no hate there.:whistle:

sticshooter
January 5th, 2010, 01:23 PM
Hmm...by your own logic you must be here arguing because you hate atheists...well? Which is it? Is your logic flawed or are you here because you hate atheists?
don't hate anyone. But anyone can look back at your post and see where your coming from. feel bad for you really. someone must have really did you bad. Sad you can't get over that and move on ya might have a better life.You just keep on doing what your doing more and more people will see that Doctari is right on the money.

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 01:25 PM
Genocide and torture are completely different thoughts and concepts from punishment Warbow....

I don't see you denying the genocide and torture.


But you wouldn't understand the REASONS God did what he did since you haven't studied the bible!

Wrong. I understand the excuses and rationalizations by Christians. I merely think the excuses and rationalizations are just that, excuses and rationalizations. The idea that millions of Christians think that a being who tortures billions of people for all of eternity is worthy of worship as an all loving creature is stunning.


I know you hate this argument, and will lash out at it. But the SINGLE REASON you do not understand those who 100% believe in god, is because you are unwilling to accept it. Having a relationship with God quickly removes doubt of his existence.

Uh, no, I don't "hate" the argument, I merely find special pleading to be just that, special pleading. Many religions and cults make the same claim, that their religion makes sense if only you join and drink the Kool Aid. So don't bother trying that one with me because it is hypocritical of you to do so. You don't buy that special pleading when other religions make it to you so don't try and argument you don't find persuasive on me. Please, please, don't use double standards in your arguments and expect not to be called on it.

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 01:28 PM
don't hate anyone. But anyone can look back at your post and see where your coming from. feel bad for you really. someone must have really did you bad. Sad you can't get over that and move on ya might have a better life.You just keep on doing what your doing more and more people will see that Doctari is right on the money.

Well, there were only two choices, either your logic was flawed or you are here because you hate atheists. Since you say you don't hate atheists then you are, I'd say, admitting that your logic was flawed. Arguing a topic does not mean you "hate" the position you don't believe in. So glad you finally admit that. Oh, and Doctari is a proven prevaricator. Supporting his perfidious arguments shows that you are interested in taking sides rather than in actually being right.

Indychris
January 5th, 2010, 01:32 PM
Genocide and torture are completely different thoughts and concepts from punishment Warbow....

But you wouldn't understand the REASONS God did what he did since you haven't studied the bible!

I know you hate this argument, and will lash out at it. But the SINGLE REASON you do not understand those who 100% believe in god, is because you are unwilling to accept it. Having a relationship with God quickly removes doubt of his existence.


I don't see you denying the genocide and torture.

Bummer. I thought you were a much better reader than that warb. :wink:

sticshooter
January 5th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Well, there were only two choices, either your logic was flawed or you are here because you hate atheists. Since you say you don't hate atheists then you are, I'd say, admitting that your logic was flawed. Arguing a topic does not mean you "hate" the position you don't believe in. So glad you finally admit that. Oh, and Doctari is a proven prevaricator. Supporting his perfidious arguments shows that you are interested in taking sides rather than in actually being right.proof is in the reading of posts. Nice try and dodging and dancing around but anyone can read for themselves.:thumbs_up doctari set out to show what the truth is and he did a great job.
Just like ole ben did with dawkins.:wink:

BowtechIAN
January 5th, 2010, 01:44 PM
I cannot believe god that allows so many wars over religon. I can't belive one church is better at worshiping than another. And I not going to pay to worship. Churches are all a little hypcritical from what I see. Were right,no Were right bla bla bla Good ol politics right there.

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Bummer. I thought you were a much better reader than that warb. :wink:

And there you go again. Note how you don't deny the genocide and torture. And you worship this god? Hmm... What does that say about your values?

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 01:59 PM
There is alot more things to debate then how dumb people are who believe in God and how aweful God is who murders people and blah blah blah. No that is hate just that simple....anyone who wants to see it can just go back on posts for say the last year and read it for themselves everything from God is a murderer to Jesus is the king of the zombies...yeah no hate there.:whistle:

Do you deny the genocide's committed by the god of the bible? Are you really so insecure in your religion that you think having the **facts** of your belief discussed must constitute hate? I'd say that sounds more like **self-loathing** than anything else. Posco is pretty solid in his beliefs and completely un-threatened by people pointing out the genocides committed by God. He doesn't think of God as some namby-pamby, all nice god. It is the people who can't handle that who seem to get all offended by frank discussions of the bible. You seem to fit into that category.

jkcerda
January 5th, 2010, 02:05 PM
I cannot believe god that allows so many wars over religon. I can't belive one church is better at worshiping than another. And I not going to pay to worship. Churches are all a little hypcritical from what I see. Were right,no Were right bla bla bla Good ol politics right there.

:amen:

Indychris
January 5th, 2010, 02:53 PM
And there you go again. Note how you don't deny the genocide and torture. And you worship this god? Hmm... What does that say about your values?

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(2).gif

D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T-I-A-T-I-O-N

Dictionary.com. It's your friend, Warbow. "Completely different thoughts and concepts" means that they are not the same. So, when a member posts that genocide and torture are not the same as punishment he IS denying that God is a genocidal torturer. http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(37).gif

You may see it differently (i.e.- "not the same"), but a denial it was nonetheless. http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(10).gif

hayman
January 5th, 2010, 03:04 PM
Is this or is it not the religious/political site? Just b/c we debate about religion and the existence of god does not mean that we hate you.

And by the way, the whole Dawkins thing is getting pretty old. You have taken a quote completely out of context and seem to use it for your childish antics every chance you get. Dawkins was merely being a good scientist, which means that you cannot ever be 100% certain on anything unless you have sound factual evidence. Therefor one cannot be 100% certain that there is a god nor 100% certain that there isn't a god. However, factual scientific data has been used to develop the theory of evolution. What do you guys have....a bible, so it must be true, wrong.

Life is simpler when you put Stick on ignore. You only have to read his nonsense when someone replies to him....

He has a locked mind that no matter how much evidence there is he won’t be able to accept it.







Just saying :darkbeer:

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 03:04 PM
http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(2).gif

D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T-I-A-T-I-O-N

Dictionary.com. It's your friend, Warbow. "Completely different thoughts and concepts" means that they are not the same. So, when a member posts that genocide and torture are not the same as punishment he IS denying that God is a genocidal torturer. http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(37).gif

You may see it differently (i.e.- "not the same"), but a denial it was nonetheless. http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(10).gif

No, actually, it was not, not unless he explicitly states that, and even then, the argument still fails. Just because the genocide and torture are allegedly in service of "punishment" that does not make them not genocide and torture. The Germans argued that the genocide and torture of the Jews was just. Did that make in not genocide or torture? Nope. Same goes for God, regardless of if you claim god actually is justified and the Germans were not.

You can argue that the genocide and torture in the bible and in Christian doctrine is justified but you can't legitimately argue that it is not genocide and torture.

Indychris
January 5th, 2010, 04:25 PM
No, actually, it was not, not unless he explicitly states that, and even then, the argument still fails. Just because the genocide and torture are allegedly in service of "punishment" that does not make them not genocide and torture. The Germans argued that the genocide and torture of the Jews was just. Did that make in not genocide or torture? Nope. Same goes for God, regardless of if you claim god actually is justified and the Germans were not.

You can argue that the genocide and torture in the bible and in Christian doctrine is justified but you can't legitimately argue that it is not genocide and torture.

Wow, you seem especially obtuse today. Your question wasn't are they the same; I believe you asked if he denied it. He clearly did. That you don't want to see it for fear of being wrong is another issue altogether. I clearly see a denial there. For you to deny that he intended something else by using the word 'different' is clearly the "intellectual dishonesty" that you so love to point out in others.

Beyond that, please show me where God practiced genocide because of a groups race rather than their practices. I don't recall anywhere in Scripture where God condemned a group because of skin color or genealogy.

As for torture, it seems to me that torture carries the primary purpose of extracting information. That clearly wouldn't be God's agenda. So if you are simply using an emotionally charged term to describe long-term severe punishment, then carry on...

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 04:42 PM
Wow, you seem especially obtuse today. Your question wasn't are they the same; I believe you asked if he denied it. He clearly did.

Nope, he did not. Let's look at his actual words:


Originally Posted by MrShake
Genocide and torture are completely different thoughts and concepts from punishment Warbow....

He claims that Genocide and torture are different from punishment but that isn't a denial of the genocide and torture, nor even a claim that there is punishment, only that they are different. If he wanted to make his claim into a denial that genocide and/or torture are committed by god he could have but he did not. His post was not a denial.


Beyond that, please show me where God practiced genocide because of a groups race rather than their practices. I don't recall anywhere in Scripture where God condemned a group because of skin color or genealogy.

Well, first off, genocide is mass murder. It doesn't have to be racially based:


genocide |ˌdʒɛnəˈsaɪd|
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

As to a genocide of a race of people, God ordered the genocide of the Midianites. And as to "nations," God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra.

The god in the OT commits genocide on a regular basis. Deal with it.


As for torture, it seems to me that torture carries the primary purpose of extracting information. That clearly wouldn't be God's agenda. So if you are simply using an emotionally charged term to describe long-term severe punishment, then carry on...

My, my, what a tenuous act of contortion you are going through to justify the torture you think your god commits. You can torture to extract information and you can torture to punish. Torture as a punishment is still torture.


torture |ˌtɔrtʃər|
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

The problem you are running into is that you believe in genocidal torture god and just can't admit it the way I think Posco can. I think you know that genocide and torture are wrong and that if God were human you'd admit that such a person would be the worst human ever to have lived for killing and torturing billions of people. So, instead of trying to twist the definitions of genocide and torture beyond all meaning, perhaps the problem is with the nature of the god you believe in, not the definitions of genocide and torture?

MrShake
January 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I don't see you denying the genocide and torture.


If geoncide and torture are DIFFERENT than punnishment.... how am I not denying genocide and torture? THEY WERE NOT GENOCIDE AND TORTURE!

Regardless, your missing the point... back to the idea that you haven't studied the bible



Wrong. I understand the excuses and rationalizations by Christians. I merely think the excuses and rationalizations are just that, excuses and rationalizations. The idea that millions of Christians think that a being who tortures billions of people for all of eternity is worthy of worship as an all loving creature is stunning.


Again, you show your lack of understanding. Can you explain to me why.. a loving god has to equal "let people do what they want whenever they want with no consequence, even if they don't believe"



Uh, no, I don't "hate" the argument, I merely find special pleading to be just that, special pleading. Many religions and cults make the same claim, that their religion makes sense if only you join and drink the Kool Aid. So don't bother trying that one with me because it is hypocritical of you to do so. You don't buy that special pleading when other religions make it to you so don't try and argument you don't find persuasive on me. Please, please, don't use double standards in your arguments and expect not to be called on it.

Other religions and other gods have NOT made themselves known to me.... the God of the Bible has, there for, its not a double standard... and again, something you just don't understand. I certainly wish you did!

MrShake
January 5th, 2010, 05:40 PM
I cannot believe god that allows so many wars over religon. I can't belive one church is better at worshiping than another. And I not going to pay to worship. Churches are all a little hypcritical from what I see. Were right,no Were right bla bla bla Good ol politics right there.

You sure are painting with a wide brush there.

How can you claim to encompass all of christian worship with your statement?

The church I belong to:

1 - Doesn't believe we worship better
2 - Doesn't require you to "pay to worship"
3 - Doesn't engage in the "Were right, no were right" game

I would venture to say that MOST are more similar to my experience than not. But all you ever have heard of or been exposed to has been more radical... IMHO

posco
January 5th, 2010, 05:45 PM
The problem you are running into is that you believe in genocidal torture god and just can't admit it the way I think Posco can. I think you know that genocide and torture are wrong and that if God were human you'd admit that such a person would be the worst human ever to have lived for killing and torturing billions of people.
I don't have any more problem with God doing as he sees fit with creation than you or me spraying down an anthill...it's well within our power and prerogative.

At least we've been warned, poor ant don't git no warning.

MrShake
January 5th, 2010, 05:50 PM
Nope, he did not. Let's look at his actual words:



He claims that Genocide and torture are different from punishment but that isn't a denial of the genocide and torture, nor even a claim that there is punishment, only that they are different. If he wanted to make his claim into a denial that genocide and/or torture are committed by god he could have but he did not. His post was not a denial.


Obtuse you are... it WAS a Denial..... a very blatant denial. I think your fear of being wrong is showing.

Genocide and Torture BOTH have a very specific connotation.. even dependent of your found definition (I found very specific ones).
The idea of Punishment also has a very specific connotation. The REASON I chose the WORD punishment and its CONNOTATION its because the difference is important.
God did the things he did after REPEATED DISOBEDIENCE and AFTER DELIVERING THEM FROM SLAVERY.

Bible study Warbow.... Bible Study.





Well, first off, genocide is mass murder. It doesn't have to be racially based:

see above




As to a genocide of a race of people, God ordered the genocide of the Midianites. And as to "nations," God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra.

The god in the OT commits genocide on a regular basis. Deal with it.


Nope, won't deal with it, see above for why



My, my, what a tenuous act of contortion you are going through to justify the torture you think your god commits. You can torture to extract information and you can torture to punish. Torture as a punishment is still torture.


Incorrect - As well, DEFINE torture for me... definitive torture




The problem you are running into is that you believe in genocidal torture god and just can't admit it the way I think Posco can. I think you know that genocide and torture are wrong and that if God were human you'd admit that such a person would be the worst human ever to have lived for killing and torturing billions of people. So, instead of trying to twist the definitions of genocide and torture beyond all meaning, perhaps the problem is with the nature of the god you believe in, not the definitions of genocide and torture?

Your right, genocide and torture are wrong... its a good thing GOD didn't participate in either. Its not christians that are twisting definitions, its, in fact, you. Your arguing semantics, and not basing your ideas on any actual personal study of the situations, causes, and effects of these stories.

I hope I have made myself PERFECTLY CLEAR, and in the future...

Don't Speak For ME!

Warbow
January 5th, 2010, 07:47 PM
Obtuse you are... it WAS a Denial

Sorry dude but it was not. You may have **meant** it to be a denial but the actual words you put to paper were not a denial. To be a denial you would have had to **deny** that there was torture and genocide. You did not. You only claimed that torture and genocide are different than punishment not that there was no torture and genocide in the bible.


I think your fear of being wrong is showing.

I think you are projecting, and doing so rather loudly.


Genocide and Torture BOTH have a very specific connotation.. even dependent of your found definition (I found very specific ones).
The idea of Punishment also has a very specific connotation.

Dude, the standard definitions of the words show that your attempt to create a "special pleading" definition of torture and genocide just isn't going to fly:


torture |ˌtɔrtʃər|
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.


genocide |ˌdʒɛnəˈsaɪd|
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

It doesn't matter whether you try to claim the torture and genocide are punishment or not, they are still torture and genocide. QED.


The REASON I chose the WORD punishment and its CONNOTATION its because the difference is important.
God did the things he did after REPEATED DISOBEDIENCE and AFTER DELIVERING THEM FROM SLAVERY.

Bible study Warbow.... Bible Study.

Linguistic Study, Mrohr, Linguistic Study. Punishment or not, genocide and torture are still genocide and torture.




Incorrect - As well, DEFINE torture for me... definitive torture

Yes, I will be happy to do so by quoting the Oxford American dictionary. You don't get to make up your own definitions of words and claim them to be accurate. Words have definitions. Just making up your own definitions de novo makes words useless and is invalid. The standard definition of genocide and torture is not contingent on whether the genocide or torture was for punishment.

Your right, genocide and torture are wrong... its a good thing GOD didn't participate in either.

Yes, if the god of the bible is true, then He did:



torture |ˌtɔrtʃər|
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.


genocide |ˌdʒɛnəˈsaɪd|
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Its not christians that are twisting definitions, its, in fact, you.

Wrong, as proved by the **facts**:
QUOTE]torture |ˌtɔrtʃər|
noun
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.[/QUOTE]


genocide |ˌdʒɛnəˈsaɪd|
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


Your arguing semantics, and not basing your ideas on any actual personal study of the situations, causes, and effects of these stories.

Wrong. Using words **correctly** and accurately is not mere semantics but the proper preview of any argument where one party is mangling the use of words from their definition as the foundation of his or her fallacious argument, which is what you are doing.


I hope I have made myself PERFECTLY CLEAR, and in the future...

Don't Speak For ME!

I'm not speaking for you when I noted that your non-denial was not a denial. Intent does not equal results. If you write 2+2=5 and I point out the error that is a fact, even if you meant "4" in your mind. Don't confuse what you may have **intended** with what you you actually wrote and posted.

RUMMY
January 5th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Oh, Rummy, Rummy. My post was accurate, in spite of your misgivings.
Strange that you would claim that the bible doesn't say that God is jealous. Don't you ever read that bible of yours?Do you seriously think that I was unaware of all the Scriptures describing God as a jealous God? I intentionally left the word "jealous" in that part of your statement that I have in quotation marks below.

Originally Posted by RUMMY
The God of the Bible is not "a jealous, mass murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit." He does not torture "billions of people for all of eternity." The Bible does not claim any of this!!!
I knew full well that you or someone would list at least some of the many Scriptures that you did. Good for you! Availing one's self of the Scriptures, and being able to read, are good first steps. Now with prayer, and supplication, if it is God's will, understanding will come.

There is much to be learned, from a good study of the various times, and places this one word; "jealously" is used in relation to God's emotion toward people. Jealousy is most often thought of as occurring when one is enviously resentful of a rival. It can of course also mean, watchful, as in guarding. I assure you that at various times throughout the Bible, as it pertains to God, it means both these things.

In 2 Cor.11:2-3 Paul states, 2. "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Christians are spoken of in Scripture as the "bride" of Christ, and His return as the "marriage." Rev. 19:7-9 is one such place. This is one of the reasons that the words; "jealous," and "jealousy" are used.

There is more. Much more! For example, regarding the Scripture Exodus 34:14 that you mentioned. If you go back to the twelfth verse you will see that God is being watchful, and guarding His people, so that they do not "make a covenant" with idol worshippers, and their false gods. What is it they worship? In verse 13 God instructs His people to "destroy their alters, break their images, and cut down their groves:" One would do well to make a study of this grove worship! It is written of in many places of the Bible. It is still done to this day!!

In most cases where this word groves is used, it denotes a phallic image, and is worshipped by immoral, lustful, obscene, and vulgar acts.

Now I would ask, if your spouse turned to another, to commit lewd, lustful, and vulgar sex acts, would you not be a little jealous? If these acts might harm your spouse, and children even to the point of death, would you not be watchful, and guarding over them?

RUMMY
January 6th, 2010, 10:55 AM
I'm not the one who believes in a jealous, mass-murdering god who punished all of humanity with suffering and death because two people ate a piece of fruit. And many, probably most, Christians also believe their god tortures billions of people for all of eternity the "crime" non-belief.Regarding the rest of your assertion that "most Christians" believe that God "punished all of humanity with death and suffering because two people ate a piece of fruit," or that they "also believe their God tortures billions of people for all eternity for the crime of non-belief."

It matters not what "most Christians" believe. What matters, is what does the Bible say!

If the sin in the garden of Eden is not realized, then true understanding of the entire Bible is severely compromised. That it was a sexual act that took place, and not the wrong choice in produce, is written, and has been there right in front of us for all these years. The sinful union of Satan with Eve, produced Cain. Cain, and his offspring were responsible for much of the idolatry, and false religions, and doctrine mentioned throughout the Bible, and even to this very day!

The idolatry, and sins of Cains descendants, and the Nephilim, and their descendants, were the entire reason for the flood, and the various other occasions that God would destroy these peoples by the "sword of Israel." This theme, runs through the entire Bible, and is the reason that so many genealogies are given throughout Scripture. It was because of Israel's own idolatry, that they would go into various captivities.

If one is blinded to, or ignores the fact that Satan tried to corrupt the bloodline through which Christ would ultimately come, and that the "fallen angels," did the same with the daughters of men, their discernment of the Scriptures will be severely lacking. It is written![Gen. 3, Gen. 6:1-7, Matt. 13:36-43, John 8:44, 1 John 3:12, Jude v.6, Rev 12:4]

There is no such thing as an everlasting burning "hell," nor does the Bible claim it! God does not torture people by burning them with fire for ever and ever! Niether did it enter His mind to do such a thing![Jer, 19:5, Jer. 32:35] Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire![Rev. 20:14] Satan is brought to ashes![Eze.28:18] To "bring to ashes," is a Hebraism that means to be gone completely, utterly, as if one never existed. Read of the coming destruction of Babylon. This is that same "harlot," of Rev. 17, used symbolically to represent all idolatrous systems of the world. Note that in Isaiah 47:14, after their destruction, there shall [I]not be a coal to warm at!

MrShake
January 6th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Sorry dude but it was not. You may have **meant** it to be a denial but the actual words you put to paper were not a denial. To be a denial you would have had to **deny** that there was torture and genocide. You did not. You only claimed that torture and genocide are different than punishment not that there was no torture and genocide in the bible.


Not only have I clarified my denial, MORE THAN ONE OTHER PERSON in this thread was not, in any way, confused or otherwise misunderstood that denial.

You are the ONLY one who want to argue the semantics of it.




Dude, the standard definitions of the words show that your attempt to create a "special pleading" definition of torture and genocide just isn't going to fly:



This wasn't a special pleading... this was trying to help you understand that strict definition can often be misleading.
Use of that kind of misleading semantic argument is often the tool of someone who feels they are loosing an argument. Its often a last-ditch effort to feel they have made their point.

MY point being (and I was very clear here) that the connotation of what you were saying was inconsistent with the truth of the stories your bashing.



Yes, if the god of the bible is true, then He did:


See above




I'm not speaking for you when I noted that your non-denial was not a denial. Intent does not equal results. If you write 2+2=5 and I point out the error that is a fact, even if you meant "4" in your mind. Don't confuse what you may have **intended** with what you you actually wrote and posted.

Again, more flailing, and unwilling to acknowledge that, outside of your semantic argument, I was QUITE clear with my words and meaning.


Now, more to the ACTUAL POINT you seem to want to aruge.

Did God cause to happen, or directly cause people to die? Yep
Did God punish people for their actions? Yep
Were they warned before punishment? Yep
Were they given multiple chances to repent? Yep
Did they AGREE to the conditions before hand? Yep
Did they profess belief and obedience before hand? Yep

Again, bible study warbow, bible study is what you need.

You often claim that Christians are closed minded and unwilling to accept anything outside of their belief... yet, here you are, unwilling to acknowledge, study, or accept anything but a negative view of ANYTHING in the bible!

This is not as simple as "God Killed Thousands of People = Bad"

God Provided Paradise with 1 condition and man broke that 1 rule - Punishment
God Establishes delivers his chosen people out of slavery, leads them to the promised land and set forth conditions. The People accepted those conditions, and then broke the rules - Punishment

The Bible is FILLED with story after story of God Providing for Man, Man agreeing to worship God (who provided) and then failing to live up to their promises..... OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER

There is much more forgiveness and providing in the bible (MUCH MUCH MORE) than there is punishment or anger...... but only bible study would reveal that to you Warbow.....

hayman
January 7th, 2010, 09:59 PM
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:darkbeer: