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View Full Version : Persistent high tear on ProElite Cam&1/2



Bert2
March 1st, 2005, 10:12 PM
*** I just noticed the new forum after I posted this on the general archery forum so I copied it here also ****

I'm getting a high tear no matter what I do; nothing seems to make any difference. I've tried moving the rest and nock up and down; weaker and stiffer arrows; higher and lower weight; low wrist and high wrist grip; etc. etc. and nothing seems to make any difference.

One thing I haven't tried is removing the overdraw -- I'm using the Hoyt overdraw rest, with the "quick tune" blade launcher. (With a 32" draw length the overdraw sure opens up some options on arrow selection.)

I know, I know -- don't worry about it if it's grouping good -- but the problem with that test is I don't know if it's me or the bow. (It's grouping OK but I just feel better when I have a good paper tune.)

The cams appear to be synchronized perfectly at full draw when checked versus the pics that have been posted here in the past. At rest the cables are on the reference holes but not centered on the holes.

Bow is '05 ProElite, XT3000, 50-60 lbs. set at 61, regular cam&1/2, cam size E set in the E module hole for 32" draw length.

Strings are custom by Eric Griggs -- we short-strung it a bit, 1/2" on the string and 3/8" on the cables if I remember correctly. I've talked with Eric about it and he's confident that this wouldn't cause the problem. (He also told me to forget about the paper tune and just shoot it.)

On my old 2-cam CC+ I was able to tweak this out by delaying the top cam just a hair. Can you do the same with the Cam&1/2, if so which way do I go?

Other tips or suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

Two Point Five
March 2nd, 2005, 12:14 AM
Hi John. I know what you are going through.

Go back to the bare shaft. At full draw, your arrow point should be 3 yards from the paper. Shoot. Nock high left, take 1/8 to 1/4 turn off the top limb. Take note. Is the nock coming down? Take alittle more off the top.This worked for me on several bows. First work at getting the nock down and make sure the launcher isn't to stiff.

Keep me posted.

Big Country
March 2nd, 2005, 12:16 AM
I had the exact same problem with my 2004 Pro Elite. No matter how big of an adjustment I would make, it would not affect the tear.

After being stupid about it for a week, it finally dawned on me that the Pro Elite, although it shoots no faster than the Protec, requires a much stiffer arrow?

As soon as I made the arrows stiffer, it paper tuned like a dream.

BTW, the arrows that I shot out of my protec @ 65lbs were NOT stiff enough to handle 60lbs out of my Pro Elite?

Hope this works for you!

johnhames
March 2nd, 2005, 12:31 AM
Check for fletching contact. Spray some foot power on your fletching, shoot, and look for signs of contact.

WindWalker
March 2nd, 2005, 12:42 AM
If you are postive that the cams are timed and shaft spine is correct, I will opt for adjusting vertical tension on rest.....if you can.

Bert2
March 2nd, 2005, 06:18 AM
Thanks for the replies so far guys.

I haven't tried playing with the tiller -- top/bottom limb bolts -- that's worth a try.

I have tried a wide variety of arrows from very stiff to relatively weak and nothing seems to matter. I've always used arrows that are on the stiff side because they always seem to tune better for me, maybe it's my long draw length. Right now I'm using Carbon Express CXL 250's in an attempt to get the arrow weight down close to IBO (5.6 gpp is as low as I've managed to get so far) and I think they might be a little on the weak side. I'll check it with Archer's Advantage when the CD comes in the mail later; but I don't think it's a spine issue since I have tried some really stiff arrows with the same result.

Also I get the same result with a bare shaft or fletched arrow, so I don't think it's a contact problem. I always paper tune with a bare shaft (weighted to replace the weight of the missing fletching) but on this one that was even worse so I tried it with fletching to make it "easier" but with the same result.

I'm using the spring steel blade launcher, but I went with the stiff one (.012" thick) because I was getting too much bounce with the medium and the arrow would pop off the rest too often (this was even more aggravating than the high tear!). I have the spring tension on the NAP rest set as light as it will go and still hold the arrow up.

I tried the powder test and I am getting rest tracks down to the fletching with some very minimal contact on one of the vanes. I thought maybe this meant that the rest was too high and the nock-end was bouncing off the rest, but I tried moving the rest DOWN and that made no difference either.

Thanks again; I'll play with it some more later but I'll try not to get too aggravated about it; if all else fails -- "just shoot it!"

John "Bert" Bertolet

WindWalker
March 2nd, 2005, 10:18 AM
Go back and start with the basics:

1. Nock height adjustment.
2. Rest height adjustment.
3. Rest tension.
4. Are the both the rest and string nock set too high.
5. Arrow spine. When using a mech release, spine issues are often indicated by vertical action of shaft Tail high/low.
6. Vane contact.
7. Standing too close for paper tuning that particular bow.

Deep sixing the overdraw might be the final answer.

Steel Magnolia
March 2nd, 2005, 09:21 PM
I would try removing the overdraw and see if anything changes. An overdraw modifys the reflex/deflex geometry of the bow and it might be a good idea to start from a stock bow and work your way up to where you are now. Just might .2

KV

pinwheel1788
March 2nd, 2005, 11:50 PM
I have an 04 proelite. 57 lbs 28 inch draw. I have had the same problem. I have dealt with it for 2 months. I have tried different arrows, points and combinations. I have tried stiff, weak and everyting in between. I have tiried several types of fall aways, spring ramps and other rests. I have raised and lowered poundage as well as different grips. I even swapped limbs, top on ttom bottom on top. I could only make my problem worse. The best I could get is about 1.5 -2 inch high and slightly left. The arrows didn't group to bad but my x count wasn't good and I would always have a flyer.

Just tonight I made it the best it has been but not perfect. I started with even tillers. I backed the bottom limb out a turn while turning the top limb in a turn. It was instantly worse. So I went the other way. I turned the top limb out a turn and turned the bottom limb in a turn. It was instantly better.

I ended up with the top limb backed out about 3.5 turns and the bottom limb is almost bottomed out. I am now getting about 1/4 inch high left to a bullet.

My overall set up is 56 lbs, 2613's at 32" with 170gr points. I am shooting a pro tuner rest with no backing plate, they tell me the ramp is .010 but it is a stiff .010 because of the width and bend in the blade. My arrow is level to nock low. I like the arrow to run down hill slightly but it will not tune there.

As for not worrying about the tuning, hog wash. If the front of that arrow is not in line with the back of that arrow,you will get some major inconsistent scoring arrows. I like Eric Griggs and have nothing bad to say about him, but I do not have his form. He can get away with shooting an untuned bow in the same hole everytime as can Bobby Ketcher, Dave Cousins, Nathan Brooks and all the other pro's that consistently shoot 300's on Vegas faces. I can not.

A flyer for them is a 10. A flyer for me is a 9 or maybe an 8.

Travis VanDaele
March 3rd, 2005, 12:05 AM
Any chance that there is some pinching from the loop????

Try opening up the loop, tie it under etc.

Travis

JAVI
March 3rd, 2005, 06:35 AM
You do realize that adjusting the tiller on a Hybrid cam is doing nothing but moving the nocking point.... (actually nock travel) ?

1iarrowking
March 3rd, 2005, 08:48 AM
;) I would bet that if you would get rid of that rest and install any good drop away and then play with the time the launcher stays up you will have bullet holes in no time.

As far as "just shoot it", that's fine until you screw broadheads on. Also, when shooting through the netting of a blind you better be paper tuned.

HoytShooter88
March 3rd, 2005, 09:06 AM
Have you checked to see if the bottom cam is hitting before the top ?

pinwheel1788
March 3rd, 2005, 02:32 PM
Yes I do realize that. That is why I also moved the rest. By adjusting the tiller the way I have it lowers the nocking point a great deal, which raises the point of the arrow. I did adjust for this.


You do realize that adjusting the tiller on a Hybrid cam is doing nothing but moving the nocking point.... (actually nock travel) ?

JAVI
March 3rd, 2005, 02:46 PM
Yes I do realize that. That is why I also moved the rest. By adjusting the tiller the way I have it lowers the nocking point a great deal, which raises the point of the arrow. I did adjust for this.It also makes the nock travel very un-level... Just curious as to the reasoning behind this choice... It sounds to me as if you already had a case where the arrow was slamming into the rest causing the high tear...

pinwheel1788
March 6th, 2005, 02:02 AM
There was no reasoning behind why I backed the tillers out except I had tried everything else. I am not saying that what I did was the answer but it was the only thing I could do to change my tuning.

Since my last post I have called the a Hoyt Tech, becuase I felt like there was an issue with the bow.

Hoyt told me it was one of 2 common problems. The first was string and cable wrap. They told me it was very important to keep the same string and cable lengths as the factory settings. I told them I was still shooting factory strings and cables. They said to make sure they were twisted up to the original lengths. They were, but that got me to tinkering. I started putting twists in the cables and string and did find that by putting more twists in my string helped. I finally did get it to tune much better. But my string is now about 3/8ths shorter than the factory specs and I now have about 1/8 more brace height.

The other thing they told me would fix it was to lower the arrow and the nock as low in the riser as I could get it. They said to pay no attention to the berger button hole in conjunction witht the arrow shaft. This fixed my problem instantly but even though the bow would shoot a bullet hole through paper (with various size arrows) I now had vane contact with the riser. I moved the rest and nock little by little until the vanes barely cleared, but it went back to tearing high.

The bow did not tune well until I started playing with string wrap. I am not sure what relationship the two steps had in common but they both did the same thing.

Scott
It also makes the nock travel very un-level... Just curious as to the reasoning behind this choice... It sounds to me as if you already had a case where the arrow was slamming into the rest causing the high tear...

Bert2
March 21st, 2005, 05:47 PM
Well, sometimes it's the simple things . . . but sometimes those simple things are far from obvious . . .

I finally got some time to tinker again, and I tried the easiest thing first: I just moved the bottom knot of my string loop down a bit, so that there was a good sized gap between the bottom of the nock and the bottom of the string loop. And what do you know -- the high tear almost dissapeared!

This puts the center of the loop below the center of the arrow similar to tying the loop below the arrow, though not as drastic.

It seems that tip was right on the money -- thanks to those who suggested it, and for the other suggestions as well.

Since I am now an official "archery bum" -- meaning unemployed -- I should have more time to tinker soon, and I'll report back again when I'm really sure it's tuned-up the way I like it.

Jabwa
March 22nd, 2005, 01:32 PM
It sould like you are concerned with IBO rules ("trying to get arrow weight to 5 gr/lb"). If so, I can't understand why you are shooting 61# and an overdraw with a 32" draw length. You should be able to get 285 fps without the overdraw and most probably with a peak weight around 55# or less. I personally would forget the overdraw, since the added reflex requires a much stiffer (and heavier) arrow and makes the bow harder to shoot well.

From what you have said, however, here is what I think the problem is: The minor vane contact you mentioned! How do you know it is minor? Turn your nocks slightly and see if the high tear disappears.

Bert2
March 22nd, 2005, 06:31 PM
Hi -- I'd like to be able to get down to 5 gr/lb to get the arrow speed up close to 300 FPS for IBO; however right now I'm in ASA configuration with speed in the low 280's.

The overdraw does open up a lot of options -- without it I'd need a 2" longer arrow in a higher spine, which adds up to a lot of weight.

I do plan to try it without the overdraw sometime when I have some more time, though.

For now the lowered string loop seems to do the trick . . . more later . . .

Thanks again

Kansas Kid
March 22nd, 2005, 09:36 PM
You do realize that adjusting the tiller on a Hybrid cam is doing nothing but moving the nocking point.... (actually nock travel) ?




so it is like a cardinal sin to not have the tiller set even on a hybrid? reason i ask is because i have been contemplating this

JAVI
March 22nd, 2005, 10:09 PM
so it is like a cardinal sin to not have the tiller set even on a hybrid? reason i ask is because i have been contemplating this

Nope set it up anyway you like.... Just that so many people think its magic... when all it does is change the nock travel... and there are better ways of doing that...

Kansas Kid
March 22nd, 2005, 10:17 PM
Nope set it up anyway you like.... Just that so many people think its magic... when all it does is change the nock travel... and there are better ways of doing that...



I shoot an AR 31 so i guess i don't have to worry about nock travel being anything less than level right.