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View Full Version : Fingers Ques. f/ Hollowpt10



Dr. Killdeer
March 9th, 2005, 12:17 PM
I see on this site that you're a finger shooter, and a good one. I totally agree with your bare-shaft tuning comments.

My intention is NOT to start a carbon vs. aluminum flaming thread...

I've been a fingers/aluminum shooter for many years, and because I now aproach "the golden years" I must reduce my draw weight to about 50#. btw, I hunt, and have a relatively short draw of 27".

It looks as though carbon will boost my velocity a bit. However, carbon shafts are rated for a broad range of weights i.e. 45-60.

Given that accuracy is the single most important aspect of shooting...

In my case, do you think the broad spine rating of carbon is an advantage over the more specific spine ratings of aluminum...? Or... not?

Hollowpoint
March 10th, 2005, 12:34 PM
I shot aluminum for many years before switching to carbons, and I think both will shoot well for you if you have the right spine. IMO most carbon spine charts are made for release shooters, they can get away with a much larger varience in actuall spine than a finger shooter can.
I think your best bet in carbon is not looking at the 55/75 rating, but looking at the actuall spine for that shaft (in this case the spine is .400"), and then cross referencing it to a more detailed chart to where it fits for you.
I dont have any software, but I know that Jorge Oliva on here does.....have him run your numbers for you. :)
Thanks Jorge. ;)

Dr. Killdeer
March 10th, 2005, 05:26 PM
I shot aluminum for many years before switching to carbons, and I think both will shoot well for you if you have the right spine. IMO most carbon spine charts are made for release shooters, they can get away with a much larger varience in actuall spine than a finger shooter can.
I think your best bet in carbon is not looking at the 55/75 rating, but looking at the actuall spine for that shaft (in this case the spine is .400"), and then cross referencing it to a more detailed chart to where it fits for you.
I dont have any software, but I know that Jorge Oliva on here does.....have him run your numbers for you. :)
Thanks Jorge. ;)

Jorge,

What sw is he referring to?

Hollowpoint
March 11th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Jorge.....where are you.........? :confused:

Dr. Killdeer
March 11th, 2005, 10:37 AM
out shooting... I hope. If Jorge's sw is useful, it'll be worth waiting for.

thanks again HP10

InKYfromSD
March 11th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Easton has a good shaft selector program that you can download and run in MS Windows. It's pretty good, IMHO. I used it and it gave me around a .300 for my setup. I chose .300 Beman ICS hunters and they fly great. Bare shaft hits with the rest at 30 yds. I was leery of the wide range (55-75) shafts and have never actually tried them.

Hollowpoint
March 11th, 2005, 11:38 AM
According to my old Easton chart, at 50#'s, with a 27" arrow, you should be shooting a spine of around .520 to .600 depending on how hard your cams are.
In Gold Tips that would put you in a 600 or 500 Ultra light, or a stiffer and heavier would be a 35/55 with a spine of .480.
In aluminum on the light side would be a 2112, 2013, 2014, 1916, a bit heavier would be the 2212, 2114,, 2016.
Hope this helps. :)
Jorge.....where are you????? :confused: :D :confused:

P.S. Carbons seem to act a bit stiffer than they are rated at (compared to aluminum), the 600's should be fine for you........I can shoot 400's at 64#'s and 30" with field points, and they fly good, even though they are underspined. ;)

Jorge Oliveira
March 11th, 2005, 11:57 AM
For some reason, I've missed this thread... :confused:

First, I mostly use the Easton shaft program (very easy and free), for a somewhat more refined calc, I use OnTarget:

http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/

http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/

Using the Easton, for 50#. 28" arrow, 100g point + 20g insert your spine should be .400 or slightly less (stiffer is better)

The GT XT 5575 would be a good choice. If you like the brand, the Blackhawk 4000 is slightly stiffer.
I would not use an Easton Epic 400 since it's actually a .415 spine, numbered 400, but a 340 (actually .370) would be fine also (spine wise).

To use OnTarget, I need more refined data - as your alum arrow lengt, point and insert weight, fletching, etc, bow data, so I can refine the parameters for your actual shooting (I've done that with my setup) and from there derive new data.

HTH.

Edit note: I did the calcs above for a hard cam bow. If you shoot wheels, then it may be overspined.

Hollowpoint
March 11th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Thanks Jorge. :)
My old catalog must be outdated. :confused:

Jorge Oliveira
March 11th, 2005, 12:24 PM
My old catalog must be outdated. :confused:

Dear Sir:

Could you pls click in the Easton link I've posted?


:D :D :D

Hollowpoint
March 11th, 2005, 12:32 PM
:p
I have always found my best shooting spine through trial and error. :rolleyes:
My 55/75's are 30" (raw shaft), with 100gr nibs, and 4" veins, and they fly good at 64#'s, 30.5" draw, with hard cams (they do act too soft with broadheads).......I would think at 50#'s and 28", he would need a softer spine. :confused:


My bow just got back from CRACKERS.....I gotta' go to Trophy Ridge, and pick it up. :D :D :D
Then it's off to the range. :cool:

Jorge Oliveira
March 11th, 2005, 12:50 PM
You must have an extremelly good release! :)

I'm shooting 42#, arrows are 30"; Epics 400 with 125g points+inserts were clearly weak...

I tested 2216, 31", 125g points+inserts, unibushings and they still tuned a bit weak (will be Ok with 30").

Based on this data, I used OnTarget to get real spine values for 31"with the ProTec, and the result was.....340 spine!

So, I'm waiting for some GT XT 7595 that have already been shipped by Michigander (Jerry).

I've just shot yesterday GT 22UL Pro but did not fine tune, they just were not way overspined (32", 145g points+inserts, unibushings).

My thoughts is that it depends a lot on the bow and release (for fingers). The ProTec data had to be cranked up to represent the real world condition!
But then, it just can be my release... :o

Ideally, one would use a chrono, measure a known arrow speed and work from there.

Jorge Oliveira
March 11th, 2005, 12:54 PM
During my professional life (I'm kind of retired today) simulation programs were very poweful tools we used.
I really don't know how good arrow simulation programs are. I will get a better idea once I test the 7595.

Hollowpoint
March 11th, 2005, 09:38 PM
I try to keep my release clean....but somedays its questionable. :rolleyes:
I am not familiar with the software....wich is why I recomended you. ;)
What I do know is what works for me....the 22's are too stiff, and the 55/75's are too soft (virtually identical total arrow weight) ...but they group together, and both fly great. :D
I am a happy camper. ;)
Too stiff or soft in aluminum....it would be a different story.....carbon recovers faster, and therefore the dynamic effect of the spine is less pronounced than it is with aluminum.
I do chrono them, and release or fingers....I get the same speed.....and the CRACKERS bow I just got back, is even faster. :)

Jorge Oliveira
March 11th, 2005, 10:08 PM
What I find interesting is not the 22 - they are not TOO sitiff, just a bit!

The interesting is how comes the 5575 is not too weak - this, I have not an explanation! :confused:

Haven't you gotten some 7595 wrongly marked? :D :D :D

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 07:34 AM
My 55/75's are 30" (raw shaft), with 100gr nibs,

When you have the chance, test the 5575 with inserts+points (total 100g). and compare to the nibbs.

It just may be that the long nibbs are making your arrows stiffer!

An inquiry mind want to know :)

Dr. Killdeer
March 12th, 2005, 09:28 AM
Guys,

You're way ahead of me in understanding carbon tech... So while I go back and do my homework, please let me know what you think about these shafts...

They appear to spec as stright as an X78. As I said, I'm still trying to catch up with you on fully understanding rating by spine in 1,000's.

http://www.larrywise.com/phantom/advantages/

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 10:05 AM
Dave Barnesdale won Vegas this yr using them, so they cannot be bad shafts. :)

I've never shot them, and don't know how tough they are. I would get the 60~75 shafts (spine .380) with 100g points plus inserts for your bow.

Dr. Killdeer
March 12th, 2005, 10:13 AM
Jorge,

I don't want to take advantage of your kind help, (but I will if I can get away with it).

My setup is a 28" shaft, fingers, broadheads, shooting less than 50#. Why would you recommend the heavier/stiffer shaft?

?

Thanks...

Hollowpoint
March 12th, 2005, 11:07 AM
When you have the chance, test the 5575 with inserts+points (total 100g). and compare to the nibbs.

It just may be that the long nibbs are making your arrows stiffer!

An inquiry mind want to know :)
I have. I had one dozen with nibs, and one dozen with 85gr+inserts. I also had some with feathers, and some with veins. I am always screwing with something, and my arrows never match in the winter.LOL :p

All of the above combinations tune well with a flipper, (overhang about 3/4"), but they acted a little soft with the Drop Zone, wich has an additional 1&1/2" of overhang. These are the arrows I shot at the Utah Open.

The 22's shoot good with either rest, and with weights ranging from 115 (85gr+insert) to 155gr. I am going to use 120gr nibs for 3-D on my next dozen, with 4" Flex Fletch low profile veins. 382gr, FOC about 10%.

For field/FITA I am going to use ultra light 400's, with 100gr nibs, and 4" FFLP's. 352gr, FOC around 9.5%.

As a side note, I cant get 2613's to tune well, no matter how much weight I have in them. :confused:

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 11:26 AM
My setings are 42#, 30~31" arrows, points, FINGERS, ProTec LX (hard cams).

Before I went to the ProTec, I was shooting an old PSE wheelie, with Epics 400 arrows 31", perfectly tuned. Just before the Epics I shot some Vapor 3000 29" and they were a bit to the weak side.

When I moved to the ProTec, the Epics became weak :confused: , and I started to ask questions in AT and look at spine computer programs.

The replies I had from finger shooters were that the mfgrs increase the draw weight by 5# for fingers (true), but for most of them this wasn't enough - it was more like 8, then look at the tables/programs.

By that time I found a good deal on alum XX75 2216 (spine .375) and purchased them.
By all tables, they should be overspined - but they weren't. At 31", they were just a bit weak (take a look at the Easton program - set 42#, 31", 125g point weight - that's point+insert).
They are Ok up to 43#, and not Ok at 44#, so it's a marginal choice (stiffer is better than weaker).
Even worse, the Epic 400, clearly weak by my tests, is considered OK :( ...

By then it made sense the postings that 5# (as used by Easton) is too little, and some stiffer arrow had to be used.
And this independent of the arrows been alum or carbon (at least with Eastons - I had tested both).

Besides, going to too light a point to make an weak arrow spine is not good from the flight viewpoint - I've aked about this also, so I use heavier points than could be used just to spine a weak arrow.

In your case, shooting broadheads, a weak arrow is one more factor for bad flight (this is posted somewhere in the AT enciclopaedia :) )

To wrap up, my final test wil be made with GT 22 UL - spine .300 and GT XT 7595 - spine .340 (already mailed and not here yet), both with 125g points plus the inserts.

Just my humble opinion, based in my findings.

toxo
March 12th, 2005, 11:35 AM
1 HAVE SHOT 2 RAMS WITH 50LB BOWS, ARROWS xx75 2114, 27" LONG. I HAVE FINGER SHOT FOR 40 YEARS AND BEMAN 500S FLY EXACTLY LIKE MY ALUMS AT 25 YARDS, THEY HIT IN THE SAME 3" GROUP WITH FIELD HEADS AND MUZZYS....THE CARBONS STAY UP AT LONGER RANGES BECAUSE THEY ARE LIGHTER BUT AT 25 YARDS THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!!!!

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 11:43 AM
I have. I had one dozen with nibs, and one dozen with 85gr+inserts.

All of the above combinations tune well with a flipper

As a side note, I cant get 2613's to tune well, no matter how much weight I have in them. :confused:

So, the 5575 mistery continues... :confused:

About the 2613, it just can be that the carbon fast recovery makes it possible to use overspined arrows that don't tune in alum.
But per the Easton program, the 22 are not overspined - it indicates spine .300 for your setup.
I feel it's better than any of the tables.

Overspine for you would be the 30X... :)

Edit note: James Park, an Australian coach, has some unusual theories re arrow spine/tuning. He states that a heavy point will never tune right a too stiff shaft.

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Which cams? Hard, wheels?

Thanks,

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 11:53 AM
That's something important I've forgotten to ask: :o

Which cams? Hard or wheels?

Hollowpoint
March 12th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Jorge,
Even Tim at Gold Tip told me I was underspined....but they work for me. :confused:
Maybe it is beacause I draw with 2 split, and release with only one......my middle finger is the only one that ever has a calouse on it. I'm not sure.
Bare shaft flight is good with them too. ;)
However they dont fly well with fixed blade heads. Last year I hunted with the 75/95's.....this year I will hunt with the 22's.
The 2613's would always hit on an angle, and just flew funny....even with 200gr in them.

Jorge Oliveira
March 12th, 2005, 04:40 PM
By the time you shot the ProTec did you use these arrows?

I wonder if this may be related to the Nitrous-X cams (absence of cable guard torque).

Dr. Killdeer
March 13th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Jorge & HP10,

The more I learn, the less I know... Thanks very much for your input. Jorge, you asked a very insightful ques in this thread re: cam types. The bow that I am considering for my new hunting setup (thus the ques about arrow spine) is a 55# Razor-X Elite w/ Nos-X cams, shoot-thru. Wide axels for hunting & fingers.

Both your comments in this thread reconciles consistently with reading the charts at 8+ lbs. for fingers. The arrow setups come out a little heavier that I expected and wanted (looking for a velocity boost).

Regarding your comments on pt. wt., I've found my best broadhead flight at about 12-15% foc. And penetration never seems to be a problem at this setting.

Dr. KD

Hollowpoint
March 13th, 2005, 12:22 PM
By the time you shot the ProTec did you use these arrows?

I wonder if this may be related to the Nitrous-X cams (absence of cable guard torque).
Back when I had the protec, I was shooting 2514's, AT 72#'S.
Neither of my RazorX's have shoot through cams on them.....they are regular Nitrous with cable guards. ;)

I dont add 5-8#'s for fingers when selecting arrows either.....no need to that I have found, my FOC is around 10%, but with my 2514's and 199gr heads it was 12.5%.

Jorge Oliveira
March 13th, 2005, 01:26 PM
Dr. Killdeer

As your bow will be hard cams, it fits with what I've posted above.
Hard cams and wheels demand different arrows for the same setup.

Hollowpoint10

"Even Tim at Gold Tip told me I was underspined....but they work for me."

I would change the nickname to Misteryshooter! :D :D

Dr. Killdeer
March 13th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Dr. Killdeer

As your bow will be hard cams, it fits with what I've posted above.
Hard cams and wheels demand different arrows for the same setup.

Hollowpoint10

"Even Tim at Gold Tip told me I was underspined....but they work for me."

I would change the nickname to Misteryshooter! :D :D

Hey Jorge, if you're hitting that moving X, the name may just fit... :D

Jorge Oliveira
March 13th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Hey Jorge, if you're hitting that moving X, the name may just fit... :D

A lot of the times I don't.
But I understand the X motives - getting hit by an arrow is very unpleasant :D :D :D

Dr. Killdeer
March 13th, 2005, 02:27 PM
A straight, clean shot is virtually painless. The last deer I took never knew what hit him. I suppose paper may have a different attitude on some days. :D