: ? Tuning a Pro Tuner
March 10th, 2005, 07:11 PM
Is this what I should see from my Pro Tuner? It has a .010 launcher with a 335 gr. arrow.
It leaves one track all the way to the end of the shaft on most arrows I have tried. On a few of the lighter shafts I tried the track runs out about one inch or so before the end.
The one pic of the shaft and black feathers shows two tracks because I shot it twice. Once after turning the nock. The bottom/longer line is my second shot after turning the nock.
My nocking point is not level. It is slightly high from 90 degrees to the string by about 1/8"
I am just setting up this bow and have not used this style of rest before and would like to get it right from the beginning.
Thanks for any input...Dave!
March 10th, 2005, 10:25 PM
It could be that the launcher is to springy. It may dip a little at full draw and then spring up and hit the end of the shaft as it goes by. A .010 launcher seems awfully light for that size arrow. I make my own launchers and use .015 feeler gage stock. Even that is sometimes to light for a broadhead tipped arrow.
March 10th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Whats shown in the pics above will shoot 60x's.
Mine always show the exact same results when powder tested.
March 11th, 2005, 04:19 AM
could the lancher be upside down?
March 11th, 2005, 12:00 PM
Thanks for the reply guys.
No Oggie it is not upside down.
ITOXO..I thought it might be a little to weak myself but not sure as I have not used this style of rest before. I guess the best way to tell is try some other sizes. Maybe a .012 & a .015. Thanks ITOXO!
Bowbender..It would shoot 60X's in your hands..not so sure about mine..Ha! Ha! Thanks for your input.
March 11th, 2005, 12:15 PM
I agree with bowbender on his method. We used feeler gauges as well and powder tested, then used our slow speed photography equipment for comparison. Since you probably don't have access to this, I would paper tune and powder test, then shoot groups and see how each performs. A properly set-up blade will perform very well.
March 11th, 2005, 12:19 PM
I would also say that the blade is to soft. Try a 12 or a 15. Also if you don't have the backer under the blade put it on and see if you get better results. If you already are using the backer then go up to a stiffer blade.
March 11th, 2005, 08:52 PM
live it like it is it will shoot great that way
March 11th, 2005, 11:48 PM
That is exactly as it should be. My advice would also be to leave it where it is and shoot it. One line is the desired tuning solution, IMHO. Looks good! :)
March 12th, 2005, 03:28 AM
Thanks everyone for the advise..Fatboy, Redman, Brown Hornet and of course Jimmy.
I was hoping one of the Pro's would jump in here and express an opinion. It is nice to see the Top Archers help out.
It would be really cool if some of the Countries Best got together and compiled a book with this kind of info. I have read alot about tuning but you never see this kind of info..the stuff you really want to know. Rest set up and what you should see while tuning, Sight set up and what works for them, Nocking point set up and what effects the type you use. Wheel timeing and what you will see when you make adjustments.
A video on complete bow set up like the "Straight talk from the Pro's" video would be the bomb.
Thanks again guy's..Dave! put a bug in someones ear Jimmy!
March 13th, 2005, 10:46 AM
In an article in Glade Magazine about cam timing Bob Ragsdale said.
"Likewise on many occasions I have also been able to eliminate both arrow rest wear and arrow shaft anodising stripping wear complaints with a very minor buss cable adjustment. Caused by the shaft being forced down onto the arrow rest when the top eccentric is running behind on the draw, just slightly lengthening the buss cable controlling the top eccentric (or shortening the other) is a simple matter, often with no more than a half or one full twist. Not only will the arrow rest wearing cease, but often even the sight settings are virtually unaffected."
I had the same wear on my shafts as you do untill I read this article. My top eccentric was behind on the draw and two twists of the cable put it ahead on the draw. I had to raise my peep sight about a sixteenth of an inch to get back on my sight marks and now all is well.
March 13th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Hi Jim how are ya?
Thanks for the info. You know I use to watch my cam rollover but now I creep tune and let the arrows tell me where my cams need to be.
Let me ask you this ? When they say "behind on the draw" do they mean the top cam rolls into the valley and hits it stop after the bottom cam? If it does I thought this was a desireable condition as it puts the top cam ahead on the shot thus pulling up on the nock for less wear and better clearance. This is my own thinking and could very well be incorrect. I know when I draw the bow the bottom cam hits the cable stop ever so slightly before the top cam.
I need more advise on this rest. Here are some more pics.
These are ACE 430's. As you can see in the pic the green fletch is hitting the rest. The track down the shaft is as far over as it can go without hitting the other fletch.
In the other pic you can see I have considerable amount of offset on these narrow shafts.
Yet the other pics show how wide the blade is with and without a arrow.
The ? I have is.. should I refletch with no offset? Should I trim the blade? Should I use another blade not so wide? "OR" should I just shoot it as is and not worry about a little contact?
I would like to shoot fat arrows for indoor and narrow ones for outdoor.
Do you guys change blades for this or shoot the same blade and make it work for all shafts?
Sorry guys I realize I am full of ??? but I have not used this type of rest and really could use the help. I live out and away so Archery Talk "IS" my ProShop. That is what makes this forum so sucsessful "Archers helping Archers" and a chance to here from the real PRO's!
Thanks again guys..Dave!
p.s. i am having trouble getting the pics to attach?
I can not get the attachment button to work for me??
March 13th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Dave....Here is another quote from his article,
"I have confirmed, on many occasions, that with an acceptable arrow spine and the top eccentric slightly ahead on the draw, it beneficially permits the tail of the arrow to raise ever so slightly in the first few inches of the trip, allowing the shaft to better clear the arrow rest. Be aware, also, that when the top eccentric is slightly ahead on the draw, a bow will naturally require a nocking point slightly lower than it would otherwise."
My cam timing was like yours on the draw, behind. And my arrows looked worse than yours. I set the top cam slightly ahead of the bottom cam and then had to raise the peep a little to get on my sight marks. Maybe I should have lowered the nocking point a little instead. I shot it through paper this morning at 6 feet and got ever so slightly of a high tear, which I thought was about what I wanted. The bow seems to be shooting better than it ever shot.
March 13th, 2005, 04:14 PM
One more thing....the arrows I wore the anodizing off were x-7's. Now outside I am shooting ACC's that weigh 356 grains off of a .10 blade and I can shoot with the cock vane down and it will go into the group.
March 13th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Your first three pictures look good, except for the bottom arrow in the last pic. The outer prong is hitting the glue at the front of the fletch. For a right handed shooter, I have found the arrow jumps to the left slightly which is why the outer prong is the only line that shows. The right or inner prong is just to the right, however, and if you don't turn your nocks so the inside down vane is slightly higher than the outer down vane you run the risk of that inner or right prong hitting your inner down vane. Sorry, is this clear at all??? :D
March 14th, 2005, 12:32 AM
O.K. Jim I will give it a try and see what happens. Maybe I had it backwards.
Tell me something..what kind of blade tracks do you get when you powder test? Two or one track and are they all the way to the back of the shaft?
If you shoot with the cock vane down it obviously slams into the rest right.
So maybe all the worry over clearance is for not???? Also did you "creep tune" your bow.
Thanks for those quotes. I enjoy reading Bob's writings as well as watching his son shoot.
Thanks for the scrutiny, I was wondering if anybody would notice that mark on the glue. I did not see that myself untill I took the pics. I have since scraped the glue off that arrow.
You know my arrows ride up on the inside of the fork not the outside. The tracks you see in the pics are from the inner fork in the blade. I know what you mean about turning the fletch up a little only mine is backwards from what you expressed. I have to turn the bottom left or outer vane up higher than the inner one to get clearance. That is part of my ? in my last reply as now I do not get the needed clearance. I wish I could get my last pics to post so you could see what I mean. When the line stops on the shaft you can see it on the other side on the vane.. the out side vane? I think the reason you do not see it in the last pic you refered to is it hit the glue and made the shaft jump upward and clear the vane. I do not know if I need to trim the blade or refletch the arrows with no offset in them. Maybe do nothing but shoot them. The contact is minor but none the less it is there.
I need to see if I can get these other pics to post so everone can see what I am refering to.
March 14th, 2005, 09:57 AM
I have not powder tested the ACC's and I could see the tracks on the finish of the X7's which quit about an inch from the fletchings. Also the X7's were from a creep tuned bow, but I changed strings before the ACC's and haven't creep tuned it.
However advancing the top cam as Bob said to do is the same as I had to do every time I creep tuned. I always stopped when all the arrows hit the horizontal line. Maybe there is a sweat spot that I hadn't gone far enough to get into.
Its snowing and real cold here today but if it gives me a break I will powder test these ACC's and get back to you.
I don't see how the cock vane could miss the blade when shooting it down. But maybe with the cam trying to lift it a little instead of pulling it down allows it to react different.
Another mystery....When the sun was just right I could see my ACC's listing to he left before I advanced the cam. After advancing the cam the listing was much less, but it was to the right. So I shot through paper at 6 feet and got about a 3/4 inch high right tear. I moved the rest out about a thirty second of an inch and the right part of the tear dissappeared. The weird thing is so did most of the high tear dissappear.
March 14th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Hey I got the other pics to upload.
Check these out along with the ?'s I had in the previous two post.
"Trim or Not" ?
"Refletch no offset or not?"
The marks you see on the vane and the shaft are the exact width of my blade?
The next pics shows the amount of offset in the vane.
the next two show the rest blade width. With and without a shaft on it.
Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the replys! dave!
March 15th, 2005, 08:50 PM
I would move the rest to the right (toward the bow) since the arrow obviously wants to go there (observe the marks in picture #1). You probably won't see any difference in your paper tear (that's why these rests are so forgiving!). A SERIOUS PROBLEM: YOUR PRONGS ON THE REST ARE TOO FAR APART FOR YOUR ARROWS! If you want proof, compare the distance between the two tracks in pic #1 and compare to the distance between the two fletches. You can solve this simply by using a whetstone on the outside of the two prongs to narrow the space between them. Don't give up on this rest- it is the best! My wife and I own 4!