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silverback
March 12th, 2005, 02:01 PM
I'm shooting a bowtech pro 40 at 72 lbs. 30" draw, 29" easton lightspeed 340s. Shooting nock tear slightly left. Problem is, when I'm sighted in at 20 yds with field points, my broadheads hit 4" LOW and 4" RIGHT.

The easy solution would be to move the rest to the left, but the tricky part is, the further back I go, the more my field points go to the LEFT. If I move my rest to accomadate the broadheads, my fieldpoints are going to go further off course. I have a Hogg-it, and have properly set the level on the sight, so I know my field points are definitely moving on me.

The broadheads are 4 blade muzzy 100 grain. But I don't want to change broadheads. I'm shooting 4" AAE fletch w/ right helical. I am certain there are no clearance problems. My rest is a Golden Premier.

Any suggestions?

silverback
March 12th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Oh yeah, and when I lin my string an arrow up, my pins are significantly off to the left.

Everything seems to be pointing to me having to move the rest to the left but the field head problem is what concerns me.

xTravisx
March 12th, 2005, 05:30 PM
I ran it through TAP and your arrows are slightly weak. Have you tried backing your poundage down about 3 to 4 pounds?

Don't worry about your pins being off to the left. Just about every right handed bow will be that way.

silverback
March 12th, 2005, 05:41 PM
i've tried backing the poundage down, and I've tried stiffer arrows. I was having worse problems, but then I dropped the tension on my rest and it got a lot better. But it's still not right.

According to TAP, what should I drop my poundage to?

xTravisx
March 12th, 2005, 06:16 PM
68-69 lbs

Is this a Freedom Cam or Infinity? I ran it through as a Freedom.

njshadowwalker
March 12th, 2005, 06:18 PM
i've tried backing the poundage down, and I've tried stiffer arrows. I was having worse problems, but then I dropped the tension on my rest and it got a lot better. But it's still not right.

According to TAP, what should I drop my poundage to?

What rest are you using?

xTravisx
March 12th, 2005, 06:19 PM
I just noticed you were using the 4 blade muzzys. I was having the same problem with those last year and switched to 3 blade and they shoot great.

He's using a GKF Golden Premier

njshadowwalker
March 12th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Nevermind i see what it is. Try outting the spring tesnion to just BARELY hold up the arrow at full draw. This helped my shooting considerably.

silverback
March 12th, 2005, 06:30 PM
I have already reduced the tension as much as possible. it certainly made a big difference, but there is still a large difference in impact between field points and broadheads. I think I will try to move the rest out and see what happens.

silverback
March 12th, 2005, 06:31 PM
it's a freedom cam. BTW what is TAP?

I used to shoot 3 blade muzzys maybe I'll have to go back.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

xTravisx
March 12th, 2005, 06:33 PM
TAP is The Archery Program

www.thearcheryprogram.com

njshadowwalker
March 12th, 2005, 06:37 PM
I have already reduced the tension as much as possible. it certainly made a big difference, but there is still a large difference in impact between field points and broadheads. I think I will try to move the rest out and see what happens.

well try moving the rest and mark the current location....

Once ya get the broadheads flying well see how much the field points are off.

Honestly while not the favorite ya could always mark the site and when your gonna shoot BH'S move it to a set loaction and the move it back for field points.

If the spine is outta wack its gonna be very difficult to get them grouping together.

Are you inserts seated propely?

Did ya spin test the broadheads?

A field point wont show these 2 problems but a broahead will. Other option is trying a 3 blade head, a smaller head or a mech. head.

silverback
March 12th, 2005, 08:38 PM
I did not put the inserts in, so I don't know if they are seated properly. Is there any way to check?

I did not spin test the broadheads, but they are brand new so they should be ok. I will spin them when I get a chance.

BDZ65
March 12th, 2005, 08:58 PM
I have been down this road many times and each time have arrived at the same solution/conclusion. If you desire broadheads to have the same point of impact as field points, your bow will need to be perfectly tuned. Of course you will need to make sure your arrows spine is correct, inserts are properly aligned with the arrow shafts, your vanes/feathers have adequate surface area compared to the area of the broadheads blades and keep your arrow F.O.C above 10%. Now back to the bow's tuning, In my opinion broadhead flight is the acid test of bow tuning and I believe you need to get very close to a bullet hole when paper tuning. I have had very good luck shooting a bare shaft through paper as tool for making those final micro-tuning adjustments. You indicated you were getting a nock left tear through paper and your broadheads were impacting right and low of field points. I would expect the right impact, resulting from a nock left paper tear, however I also suspect your paper tear is a little nock high, explaining the low broadhead impact. Basically when the arrow does not leave the bow perfectly the broadhead blades will cause a degree of planing. I would suggest moving your rest in toward the riser, to eliminate the left tear and lowering your nock point to reduce the low broadhead impact, move your rest and nock point in the direction of broadhead error vs. field points.

Brian

silverback
March 13th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Thanks Brian,

I do have a high nock tear, but it is very slight. However, my nock point is 3/16" above center. I am afraid to move it much lower, because then my arrow looks like a rocket launcher or something. I've heard a lot that one cam bows like a high nock point, this is certainly not the case for me.

I'm also somewhat limited how far I can move into the riser because the cables are pretty close.

What would be another arrow I might try? The reason I have been trying to get the lightspeed to work is that I want a flatter trajectory. So, I want something around the 400 grain area.

Does anybody know of a way to check an insert for squareness?

xTravisx
March 13th, 2005, 09:57 AM
Carbon Express CXL 350s work well at 72 lbs for you. They would weigh very close to 400-410gr.

silverback
March 13th, 2005, 12:11 PM
does TAP say anything about Goldtip 300 Ultralights, I've been looking at those, good weight, good price. I've heard they are very accurate

I was shooting CE Terminators when I had an XTEC, but I was not impressed with them. I have heard the CXL is a better shaft though. BTW, the terminators fly pretty good, but they weigh something like 10 or 11 gpi and get terrible trajectory.

I just love the $60 lightspeeds, fast, accurate, cheap.

Why can't stores sell tuner packs of arrows instead of having to buy a half dozen to find they are underspined. Life would be much easier...

silverback
March 13th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Might the broadhead adapter ring have anything to do with this? I am not using any. I don't know what they are or what they do.

Hollowpoint
March 13th, 2005, 12:55 PM
I think Brian nailed it. :)
Lower your nocking point (or raise your rest) a hair, and move your rest (center shot) out a hair. ;)
After initial set up, I fine tune with broadheads just for this reason.....the fixed blades will show small tuning problems that would normally go un-noticed with field points.

Bow-zo
March 14th, 2005, 12:13 AM
My son and I shoot the 4 blade Muzzy with 4-4 inch feathers on 28" G/T 55/75 and have no problem hitting a 3" spot @ 60 yards. We also use the Muzzy Zero Effect rest on 31" A2A bows. Shooting 280+ fps @ 63# and 29" draw.
Best hunting rigs I ever saw.

We do not bare shaft test, paper test or any of that other wasted time and effort tests.
Do a walk back group shooting to get center shot. Make sure you have fletch clearance and just group tune. If it groups well at all ranges who cares where a bare shaft hits? Just have someone stand behind you and watch the arrows fly to see if they fly straight without any fishtailing.
All I want is the arrow to hit where my sight pins are. It can do summer salts all the way to the target if it wants as long as it hits the "X".

By the way they shoot right with are field points.

Spend more time shooting and less time frustrated and hair pulling only to try something else, and then something else, something else...You know what I mean.

Have fun it's only a game...Dave!

silverback
March 14th, 2005, 09:53 AM
Trust me, I spend plenty of time shooting. But the frustrating part is that I live in the city now, and don't have much of an opprotunity to shoot beyond 20 yards. So I am relying on paper tuning much more than I ever had to. It is not a waste of time for me because when I get to shoot longer distances, I want to be able to spend most of my time fine tuning.

I also know that paper tuning only gets you close. You have to make adjustments after you get a bullet hole to really tune the bow properly. I know how good a well tuned bow will shoot. I'm having a tough time getting the bow to do it, that is why I posted this thread. I appreciate the suggestions, I'm just a little frustrated. ;)

I think my arrows just aren't stiff enough (it seems to be the only thing explaining all the symptoms). I am running out of adjustment but still not getting consistent broadhead/fieldpoint impact.

I'll try some new arrows this weekend and post the results. I have some CE Terminators 6075's I'm going to try.

BTW Dave, what kind of bloodtrails do you get out of the 4 blades? I used to use 3 blades, and some of the blood trails were a little weak, so I am switching to the 4 blades.

Bow-zo
March 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Hey Sliverback, how are ya?
Sorry if my post sounded like I was condeming your tuning method. I did not mean to direct it to you personally. I was trying to express my past experiance with all that tuning stuff I always here people pull their hair out over. I use to do the same thing and just got very frustrated with the whole mess. Like you are now.
I was pointing out contrary to popular belief most of the time spent tuning and adjusting is time wasted. Most of the tuning methods you read about are outdated and apply to finger shooters and old style plunger type rest. Bare shaft tuning is for finger shooters to pick the right spine for their bow and shooting style.
Modern rest and mechanical releases, new arrow shafts and componants do not require that much tuning. If you use a mechanical release and a two prong style rest or launcher all you need to do is pick a shaft close to the correct spine preferably a little on the stiff side and set center shot and nocking point. Now weather you use paper or a bare shaft or both is up to the shooter. I do not use either and get great groups out to 80 & 100 yards.
A mechanical release and shoot thru rest along with modern arrow shafts are very forgiving. I understand having your equipment the best it can be but don't pull your hair out over it. It is not necessary and it takes the fun out.
I know many people do it any way but how many get what they want.
The name of the game is consistency. Do not get me wrong I know a measure of tuning is required but most take it to extremes and that is O.K. if they like fiddling with their stuff and trying new things. If it leads to frustration however it does nothing for your mental shooting game.
I have a Hooter Shooter (and belive me I do not use it much either) but when I do it will shock your socks off. I can not mess a bow up bad enough that it will not shoot arrows in the same hole when it is on the machine. My shooting improved ten fold just knowing that and then spend my time trying to be consistant.

There are some basics that need to be adhered to.

The bare shaft "MUST" match the fletched arrow down to the last detail.
Weigh the fletching and put that much weight on the back of the bare shaft.
Make sure the FOC is the same as well as the overall total weight of each shaft. The bare and the fletched.

Broadhead arrows must be spin tested to be sure the inserts and broadheads are perfectly straight. (i can not stress enough how important this step is) If the tip wiggles even slightly when you spin it it will not fly straight.
Make sure you have as much helical as your arrow shaft will allow. Broad heads can not plane if they are spinning. Then make sure you have fletch clearance on the rest. This is not as important as most think. If they all hit the rest but the nocks are turned the same so they hit the rest the same they will group very well. Do not be afraid to raise your nock alittle it will put some bias on the arrow and make it more consistant with broadheads.
I have not seen any appreciable differants in broadhead style if the the above is followed. I repeat, if a broadhead is spinning it can not plane but only if it spins perfectly true with no wobble at all.
Also make sure the field point arrows and the broadhead arrows match very closely. Tip weight, FOC and most of all "total overall weight"

Sorry if my comments are lengthy, I could go on but these are the most important things I have found. I know some my not agree and that is O.K. too! Tuning is a personal thing for what ever works for you. I have been down this frustrating road of never ending tuning and have pulled all the hair I can stand to loose.
I just hope to help someone like the people on here have helped me.

Oh! By the way Silver the bloodtrails are very heavy if you put the arrow in the right spot.

Thanks for the chance to respond..Eya later. Dave!

jonnybow
March 14th, 2005, 02:34 PM
All I want is the arrow to hit where my sight pins are. It can do summer salts all the way to the target if it wants as long as it hits the "X".

By the way they shoot right with are field points.

Spend more time shooting and less time frustrated and hair pulling only to try something else, and then something else, something else...You know what I mean.

Have fun it's only a game...Dave!

To a point I can agree BUT.......

I do care if my arrows cartwheel down range even if they do hit the spot. If I am hunting, I lose considerable KE if my arrows aren't flying perfectly and I doubt fixed head broadheads would impact where I was aiming if I didn't have good flight.

I guess I am agreeing with you to a point but also disagreeing at the same time!!

Jon

silverback
March 14th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I agree with Jon on the KE issue. Also, the worse the arrow flight, the larger the shooting window is that you need.

If the arrow is not spined correctly you are losing a lot of energy to the flex of the arrow.

BDZ65
March 14th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I agree that a poorly tuned bow will put arrows into the same hole all day and it will probably shoot good groups with broadheads as well. However if you want broadheads and field points to have the same point of impact, you will need to tune your bow to a level that the arrow is leaving the bow pretty cleanly. For those who achieve this with little to no tuning, good for you, I just would not always expect this to be the case.

Brian

njshadowwalker
March 14th, 2005, 04:46 PM
A bow that is perfectly tuned has less wasted KE when trying to keep the arrow from wobbling back and forth...

When that arrow connects with an animal which do you honestly think will penetrate better? One making a dead nbuts straight line into the target or one dancing through the air?

Some timesd we get tooo fanatical. But without some form of paper shooting there is no way to know if your nock is too high, too low etc. Paper tuning will show fletch contact when nothing else will. Problem is alot of people set up drop awaya and assume that they have no contact, only to paper tune and fine out that they need more offset or less helical etc to effectively shoot and time that rest.

Im not arguing with anyone here but in the end the better you can make that arrow fly the more accurately you will shoot. Especially with a fixed blade head.

silverback
March 19th, 2005, 04:54 PM
I tried some Carbon Express teminatiors in a 300 spine. Fletched them up with Blazers and a heavy offset. 4 blade muzzys are hitting right with the field points.

Incidentally, it is puncing a perfect bullet hole through paper.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

So,when does deer season start?

Bow-zo
March 20th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Glad to hear it Silverback.
You will like those 4 blade they are very well balanced and spin very true with little tinkering. Heavy offset with a 4 blade that spins true and you are ready for anything that walks, crawls, swims or flys.
Now go out and have fun.

Dave!