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mqshooter
March 14th, 2005, 08:16 PM
What is considered enough for most North American game animals? I am getting 56lbs.

rogbo
March 14th, 2005, 08:42 PM
Well you are bound to get alot of opinions on this one friend. I get 59.65 lbs out my set up. Having said that I have shot completely through a cow bison with a 52 lb recurve, so my opinion is that you will have no problem with anything that flies, crawls or swims on this continent. Put her through the ribs and the job is done.

johnhames
March 14th, 2005, 10:11 PM
What more KE buys you is more options when it comes to lethal pathways into the vitals. I shoot elk lungs from any direction including through leg bones. 92ft/lbs of KE permits this. I don't have to wait for the perfect fantasized position. With 50-60 ft/lbs of KE, this would be a low percentage shot.

SpazAttack
March 15th, 2005, 04:09 PM
The more important question is: What is your KE downrange, at the distance you intend to harvest your animals?

One size does not fit all and there is always a trade off. It's all about placement and proper shot selection

That's a bowhunter ed instructor asking.

Dthbyhoyt
March 15th, 2005, 05:04 PM
What more KE buys you is more options when it comes to lethal pathways into the vitals. I shoot elk lungs from any direction including through leg bones. 92ft/lbs of KE permits this. I don't have to wait for the perfect fantasized position. With 50-60 ft/lbs of KE, this would be a low percentage shot.
What kind of a set-up do you have to get that kind of KE ? :confused:

benchleg90
March 15th, 2005, 05:37 PM
I dug deep into my magizine pile to find an old article from August of 2001 writen by Mr. Schuh. Quote "I am confident in concluding that 50 fp of kinetic energy is more than enough for elk." The other day I put my personal set up into BowJackson and it gave me around 75. My hunting partner is shooting in the mid 80's with his Pat. Still avoid head on shots at elk.

benchleg90
March 15th, 2005, 05:41 PM
johnhames- What are u using to get 92? My buds Pat is shooting 437gr. at 294fps. and is not breaking 90. Must know what you have-Bowtech? :smile:

GBOW1
March 15th, 2005, 05:49 PM
I am producing 72.3 Ft Lbs with a Css Encore set at 28.75 draw and pulling 72Lbs with 382 Gr arrow and shootin 292 fps.

morbidking
March 15th, 2005, 06:05 PM
i am only gitting 80 Ft Lbs
70# supertec 290fps
430gr carbon excel

johnhames
March 15th, 2005, 06:09 PM
johnhames- What are u using to get 92? My buds Pat is shooting 437gr. at 294fps. and is not breaking 90. Must know what you have-Bowtech? :smile:

Jennings Carbon Extreme XLR set at 82# 29". Shooting 2419's weighing 670 grains at 255fps with Wasp SST Hammers.

johnhames
March 15th, 2005, 06:22 PM
The more important question is: What is your KE downrange, at the distance you intend to harvest your animals?

One size does not fit all and there is always a trade off. It's all about placement and proper shot selection

That's a bowhunter ed instructor asking.


I'm not sure but I can tell you this. I was preparing for an archery golf tournament and practicing 110 yards. On the first couple shots I was feeling around for where the bales were and missed and hit the frame made from 2x4's. I got complete penetration through the 2x4 with the field tip. I shot an elk at 95yds through the top of the lungs breaking a rib and stopping on the far side. This was a finishing shot as the elk had been shot from much closer and was taking his sweet time dieing. I don't like to see animals suffer and was trying to dispatch him quickly. Tell your students they need to be proficient at greater ranges than they plan to take their first shot.

Proper shot selection varies with and is defined by the KE being used. With the illustration above high KE allows shots that require breaking elk leg bones. With lower KE a resonable person should not take a shot that requires breading a leg bone to enter the lungs. I've taken this shot twice with the same result. The bone running from the top of the leg to the ball joint of the shoulder blade was fractured in to many pieces. (once 6-pieces and once 4-pieces) The arrow went on into the lungs and resulted in a quick kill.

swivelhead
March 15th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Johnjames, I too have used high KE setups and no doubt they work very well. What I want to point out (from experience) is usually large bones are compromised by the broadhead which then passed into more vital areas. Then the 700# animal beats feet for the hills. The weakened bone fails under this stress (usually resulting in and ugly wreck) giving the impression that the arrow caused all the damage to the bone structure. Reality: probably not. Deliberately shooting at heavy bone because that's the shot presented isn't advisable in my opinoin.

johnhames
March 15th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Johnjames, I too have used high KE setups and no doubt they work very well. What I want to point out (from experience) is usually large bones are compromised by the broadhead which then passed into more vital areas. Then the 700# animal beats feet for the hills. The weakened bone fails under this stress (usually resulting in and ugly wreck) giving the impression that the arrow caused all the damage to the bone structure. Reality: probably not. Deliberately shooting at heavy bone because that's the shot presented isn't advisable in my opinoin.

One of these went down in about 20 yds. I saw her fall. The other went about 50 yds. I blood trailed him through the salmon berries, found him alive and finished him with a heart shot. I guess our experiences have been different. Although if the animal beets feet for the hills, anything else that happened was something you did not directly observe. A quality head must be used, you'd better know the anatomy, and arrow placement is vital. I hunt on the ground and waiting for the best shot is uaually a loosing stradigy. The first shot that will result in a dead elk is the one I take and I've schooled my 2 boys the same way. We have killed 38 elk unguided on land open to the public, something is working right.

swivelhead
March 16th, 2005, 08:51 AM
Johnjames, I figured you'd take my post as a personal attack. That was not my intent. Just wanted to point out what I've observed over the years. If you'd like to discuss it further, PM me.

johnhames
March 16th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Johnjames, I figured you'd take my post as a personal attack. That was not my intent. Just wanted to point out what I've observed over the years. If you'd like to discuss it further, PM me.

No offense taken. We just have different schools of thought on what to do with the high KE. I have very strong conviction in my belief based on the success I have had, I'm sure you do also. My previous post may have made it sound like those 2 elk were the only basis for my conclusions. They weren't. Hey, thats what AT is for. We all have different perspectives and its good to share them. :smile:

freakshow
March 16th, 2005, 12:25 PM
I get about 62-63fpe at the bow. I have heard from a number of sources that 50 is good for deer sized and black bears and 60 is good for elk, moose, bigger bears. Some go to 65 or 70fpe at the bow for the really big stuff. I think if you are in the 55-60fpe range you should be alright provided you use good equipment and pick your shot well.

talonwolf37
March 16th, 2005, 12:44 PM
out of my raptor fastflite, i get 56ft lbs on K.E.
the most i have ever gotten is out of the dynatec i just got.
at 66lb with a 410 gr arrow i get 67ft lbs.

i have always tried to get 55 to 60 ft lbs out of my bows.
so far i have been able to do so.

Seth the XSlayr
March 16th, 2005, 12:58 PM
To answer your question:

KE Hunting Usage

25 ft. lbs.

Small Game

25-41 ft. lbs.

Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)


42-65 ft. lbs.

Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)

65 ft. lbs.

Toughest Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly, etc.)



There's a basic run down but as everyone has stated there are many factors that play into penetration, including shot selection.

Some folks like to shoot 'em one way, others like it their way.

WindWalker
March 16th, 2005, 01:42 PM
"....perfect fantasized position."

??

Tax Lawyer
March 16th, 2005, 01:56 PM
I am getting 85 ft/pd of KE from my main rig.

sjb3
March 16th, 2005, 02:50 PM
89-90 ft lbs out of my Old Glory. :thumbs_up

johnhames
March 16th, 2005, 04:14 PM
"....perfect fantasized position."

??

That would be broadside, just a little angled away, looking the other direction, with a 12 point rack. Like in your dreams. Real bowhunters don't fantasise only about Martin girls.

WindWalker
March 16th, 2005, 04:44 PM
johnjames:

The positioning you described is definitely not a “fantasy” position. It is a good setup (position) for a high success shot and not a rarity......excluding the 12 points.

As for your apparent belief that your bow being able to generate 92 KE allows you to take a shot from any direction, which I construe to mean to hit a large and muscular animal anywhere, even in a leg or shoulder bone, is ok, is, in my opinion, more of a fantasy and is asinine. After all, it is a bow and an arrow.

Constancy under hunting conditions cannot be guaranteed with any type of weapon, let alone a bow and an arrow in flight.

johnhames
March 16th, 2005, 07:07 PM
johnjames:

The positioning you described is definitely not a “fantasy” position. It is a good setup (position) for a high success shot and not a rarity......excluding the 12 points.

As for your apparent belief that your bow being able to generate 92 KE allows you to take a shot from any direction, which I construe to mean to hit a large and muscular animal anywhere, even in a leg or shoulder bone, is ok, is, in my opinion, more of a fantasy and is asinine. After all, it is a bow and an arrow.

Constancy under hunting conditions cannot be guaranteed with any type of weapon, let alone a bow and an arrow in flight.


You may want to re-read my posts. It's hard to recognize my position from anything you have said. First nothing was said about any larger animal than elk, which is what I hunt. Second nothing was said to indicate I could/would shoot "anywhere". I do take shots through bone into the lungs including leg bones. Nothing was ever mentioned about going through the shoulder blade. I hunt from the ground so the shoulder never lines up with the lungs. Do I get away with shots that shouldn't be taken with 50-60 ft/lbs of KE? Yep. Do I think you ever shot 92 ft/lbs of KE while hunting? Nope. Do I think you usually hunt from a tree? Probably. Through the eyes of a tree stand hunter with a light poundage bow, what I do is probably not well understood and seems asinine. Your description is a little harsh but, hey, if that's your opinion, it's OK. John

bowhuntin_kid
March 16th, 2005, 07:36 PM
johnjames:

The positioning you described is definitely not a “fantasy” position. It is a good setup (position) for a high success shot and not a rarity......excluding the 12 points.
Uhh then what is a "fantasy position" Because, that's certainly what I daydream about!!

As for your apparent belief that your bow being able to generate 92 KE allows you to take a shot from any direction, which I construe to mean to hit a large and muscular animal anywhere, even in a leg or shoulder bone, is ok, is, in my opinion, more of a fantasy and is asinine. After all, it is a bow and an arrow.

You kinda jumped the gun there. He never said he could shoot from any direction...he simply said he could shoot through leg bones on elk.

WindWalker
March 16th, 2005, 10:35 PM
”What more KE buys you is more options when it comes to lethal pathways into the vitals. I shoot elk lungs from any direction including through leg bones.” 92ft/lbs of KE permits this. I don't have to wait for the perfect fantasized position.

I must have misinterpreted the overall message by unconciously excising everything said other than “....buys you more options into the vitals....lungs..........from any direction including the leg bones...I don’t have to wait for the fantasized position.”

I will agree that more energy does at times provide an edge, but I cannot accept that just because an arrow is leaving the bow at a calculated KE of 92 is guaranteed to provide an array of shot options you seem to indicate.

”Do I think you ever shot 92 ft/lbs of KE while hunting? Nope. Do I think you usually hunt from a tree? Probably.

Your belief in the certainty that your experience and expertise is unique, is quite commendable. ;)

johnhames
March 17th, 2005, 12:11 AM
Windwalker, I'm really disappointed. I thought you had some experience upon which you based your opinions. Now I find out you have 3 bows and none of them are set over 67 lbs. Unless you have spent some time in the past shooting more weight, you have no idea what 92ft/lbs of KE is all about. OOOOPs :) My experience and expertise is not unique just very different from yours. Bow hunters shooting similiar KE and hunting elk from the ground have experiences similiar to mine. People that hunt whitetail from treestands with bows in the 60+ pound range have experiences similiar to yours. That doesn't make you wrong. :wink:

BlackTimber
March 17th, 2005, 12:22 AM
75# Ke

WindWalker
March 17th, 2005, 12:10 PM
john:


Windwalker, I'm really disappointed. I thought you had some experience upon which you based your opinions. Now I find out you have 3 bows and none of them are set over 67 lbs. Unless you have spent some time in the past shooting more weight, you have no idea what 92ft/lbs of KE is all about. OOOOPs!

A senseless and a bit of "chest puffing" statement. To be brief, you can be assured that I know a little about ballistics. Also, although it is immaterial, I have seven bows, with none presently set over 67 pounds of draw-weight.

In the past, the most draw-weight that I used was 72 pounds. I didn’t know what calculated KE the higher poundage were producing, because knowing a KE number was irrelevant. I figured that if a 40# recurve can drive a head halfway through a spine, than a 72#, or a 67#, compound bow should be able to do the job quite efficiently.

Just for a few penetration examples; using a 65# mild cam compound I had an arrow take out a rib, the boiler room, and break a leg on a buck at 23 yards.....a shot I made while standing on the ground. Using a 62# Classic Wheel bow, I hit a buck at 21 paces and the arrow busted a rib, went through the vitals, and broke his leg on the opposite side. Using a 52# wheel bow, I hit a 201# boar at 18 paces and fully penetrated his gristle plate and penetrated both lungs. I have no idea what the KE was for any of these shots, but I am sure it was below 92KE.

Regardless what you seem to infer; how much draw-weight a person has used in the past or is now using, and the degree of calculated KE a person’s bow has generated or is generating has nothing to do with one’s bowhunting ability or experience. Neither does hunting from a treestand vs. hunting from the ground, and I have always done both, mean that the person hunting from an elevated stand is an inferior or less knowledgeable hunter than a person whom only hunts/shoots from the ground ......and uses 82# pounds of draw-weight.

As in this thread, the majority of your posts in many past threads regarding draw-weight and kinetic energy indicates that you believe that a high draw-weight and KE is some kind of panacea to taking high-risk shots. My argument with your apparent beliefs is that no person should believe that a high draw-weight and a high KE increases shooting options to the point of not having to wait for a reliable “fantasy” shot, because the kinetic energy will enable the arrow to bust and penetrate bone.

Any knowledgeable bowhunter knows that regardless of bow poundage and the kinetic energy of an arrow, hitting bone is a high risk shot because the arrow can be deflected, stopped, and/or lose much of its penetrative energy. Although you seem to have avoided a confrontation with Mr. Murphy, or have left your unsatisfactory experiences filed away in your “For your eyes only" file, a well placed shot in one of the standard “kill zones” is still the best shot, and one that I highly recommend to wait for if a person wants to obtain the optimum prospect of a clean kill and recovery....regardless of KE.

ballagh
March 17th, 2005, 12:29 PM
90 Foot Pounds
Hoyt SUpertec
72 pounds
550 grain arrow
125 fixed blade broadhead

johnhames
March 17th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Windwalker, Well we are getting closer. I can buy almost everything you suggest. Stand hunters and ground hunters have a difference in approach. Neither is right or wrong, just different. A stand hunter thinks the deer have been here before so if I wait long enough they will be back and when they show up I'll wait for the perfect shot. A ground hunter thinks the deer were here before, they are not here now, so I should go find them and as soon as I find them I'll take the first killing shot available, because if I wait for a better shot I may be identified before I get the shot. I take an aggressive approach by making things happen rather than waiting for things to happen. I think elk force a little of this in that they travel together. All of them in an area may be in just a few groups. When you find them there are many eyes that have to be avoided. Time is never in my favor until after the shot and I don't call; I sneak in. I've run into Mr Murphy, but most of our encounters resulted in me getting spotted by a pair of eyes that I was not aware were there. All this causes a little different mind set. To me the competition is one where I force things to happen but take advantage of opportunities my opponent gives me.

SpazAttack
March 17th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Tell your students they need to be proficient at greater ranges than they plan to take their first shot.

Proper shot selection varies with and is defined by the KE being used.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Most of them are not proficient at the range they take their first shot! much less the second and third!!! Perhaps we should add a shooting proficency test to the certification process.

KE does open some additional avenues to the "goodies".

What works for you, obviously works for you. I congratulate you on your successes and say don't change a thing.

For the other 90% of bowhunters out there not shooting specialized rigs, not having a through understanding of big game anatomy, and not as proficent with their rigs as maybe they ought to be - the additional benefits of shooting a ultra high KE setup do not outweigh attempting shots that hold an unobstructed path to the vitals.

johnhames
March 17th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Most of them are not proficient at the range they take their first shot! much less the second and third!!! Perhaps we should add a shooting proficency test to the certification process.

KE does open some additional avenues to the "goodies".

What works for you, obviously works for you. I congratulate you on your successes and say don't change a thing.

For the other 90% of bowhunters out there not shooting specialized rigs, not having a through understanding of big game anatomy, and not as proficent with their rigs as maybe they ought to be - the additional benefits of shooting a ultra high KE setup do not outweigh attempting shots that hold an unobstructed path to the vitals.

I've really got mixed feelings about the proficiency test aspect of BH Ed. I have two sons, ages 36 and 39, both of whom won several state championships. Then the younger one got target panic that he could never shake. He can shoot 2 or 3 arrows at short yardages(0-30yds) and if he is successful, it grabs him. The interesting part is that the younger one with the target panic is by far the better bow hunter. He knows his limitations, gets in real close, and just doesn't make mistakes. Between the 3 of us, using spot and stalk on elk, I have to bet on the son who can't shoot very well. I would vote for a minimal proficiency test if any and heavy emphasis on stalking skills, blood trailing skills, tree stand placement, and general anatomy/shot placement, etc. I suppose every one has a different list of points they think should be emphasized.

WindWalker
March 17th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Well, John, it appears we have reached an agreeable impasse..... or disagreeable, however you want to classify the discussion. ;)

I have done a lot of bowhunting over the years, too much according to my wife, but I have never hunted elk. Therefore, I cannot competently dispute your explanation that elk hunters are often pressured to take a shot that might not be the best shot to take, because to wait for a better one might mean not getting a shot at all. If a high draw-weight and KE allows one to successfully do so, and the shot method is common with elk hunters, than I will have to yield to the experienced.

johnhames
March 17th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Well, John, it appears we have reached an agreeable impasse..... or disagreeable, however you want to classify the discussion. ;)

I have done a lot of bowhunting over the years, too much according to my wife, but I have never hunted elk. Therefore, I cannot competently dispute your explanation that elk hunters are often pressured to take a shot that might not be the best shot to take, because to wait for a better one might mean not getting a shot at all. If a high draw-weight and KE allows one to successfully do so, and the shot method is common with elk hunters, than I will have to yield to the experienced.

That's close. Actually most bowhunters don't shoot as much KE. Many wind up getting no shot because of having to wait for a doable shot that will be lethal. I killed many elk with 57# and did a lot of working for an appropriate shot selection to go with the lesser KE. I also got busted many times during the attempt by some panicky cow that I didn't see. This is the situation most commom with elk hunters. It's one I am trying to avoid as long as possible by shooting the higher KE. I figure I've got another 1 to 3 years before the bow will have to be backed down.

PABowhunt4life
March 17th, 2005, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE} I shot an elk at 95yds through the top of the lungs breaking a rib and stopping on the far side. This was a finishing shot as the elk had been shot from much closer and was taking his sweet time dieing.
kill.[/QUOTE]


The heck with the KE numbers, you are shooting a bow at 255 fps and shot an elk at 95 yards. How much arch was on that arrow and did you have time to grab a bite to eat before it got there? :teeth:

johnhames
March 17th, 2005, 11:04 PM
The heck with the KE numbers, you are shooting a bow at 255 fps and shot an elk at 95 yards. How much arch was on that arrow and did you have time to grab a bite to eat before it got there? :teeth:

I took a nap just after the release and the sound of splintering ribs woke me up. :)

PABowhunt4life
March 17th, 2005, 11:07 PM
I took a nap just after the release and the sound of splintering ribs woke me up. :)


I don't care who you are, that's funny right there lol

fastcamo
March 18th, 2005, 01:20 AM
Im going to agree with johnhames on this one i know exactly what he is talking about to a "T" of course everyone want the elk to be blind and walk right by ya with a perfect broadside shot, and have everything go right, that pretty obvious its what alot dream about and alot have had it happen, but with a high KE setup just like john said, you can afford to take some of those shots that a less powered bow is delivering the load, while im stuck in the 70+lbs of KE area ,a few of my friends are in the 90+ range and they can make shots like that, ive even seen from rear to front blow throughs, it all comes down to how confident the person is in their ability and their equipment, keep shooting like you have john, and your sons, you will take more game by creating situations than others that sit back and wonder,,

WindWalker
March 18th, 2005, 08:52 AM
”....they can make shots like that, I’ve even seen from rear to front blow throughs,

I am beginning to get an entirely different impression of the shot differences that exist between bowhunting elk and the game I am used to hunting.

Regardless of how efficient the bow is that I am using at the time, I am so conditioned to shot placement, depending on the anatomy of the animal, I would mistakenly let a shot at an elk pass when most experienced elk hunters would not have.

If someone was to reveal that they intentionally shot a Whitetail in the butt hoping to get into the vitals, I know the (verbal) stuff would hit the fan. :eek:

Elkohlc
March 18th, 2005, 12:22 PM
I shoot 84 lb KE with my set-up. I also only really hunt elk. I love the fact that I have good 'knock-down' power. And in fact last years bull I actually knocked over when the arrow hit him...never seen that before. Anyway, even with the higher KE...I would never take a Texan heart shot. Their are a lot of questionable shots I would never attempt. Elk are very tough animals and if not hit well will travel a long ways. I have been there and don't want to do that again. For me...double lung, broadside shot is the way to go.

DwayneR
March 18th, 2005, 04:03 PM
I must be a much more proficient hunter than all of you folks....

I use a 45# Recurve Mamba. I shoot a 530 grain arrow and get a whopping 25 KE out of it...

To this date, the best shot I did (last year) was nailed a 6x7 BULL at 100 yards. Nailed him him in his tracks... He never even moved. I tracked 100 yards to get to him, spent 5 seconds pulling my arrow out, and another 1/2 second watching the foam self heal...

Dwayne

johnhames
March 18th, 2005, 04:41 PM
I must be a much more proficient hunter than all of you folks....

I use a 45# Recurve Mamba. I shoot a 530 grain arrow and get a whopping 25 KE out of it...

To this date, the best shot I did (last year) was nailed a 6x7 BULL at 100 yards. Nailed him him in his tracks... He never even moved. I tracked 100 yards to get to him, spent 5 seconds pulling my arrow out, and another 1/2 second watching the foam self heal...

Dwayne

If he never moved, it seems like a waste of time tracking him 100yds. So Mckinsey is making 6x7's now? Good poke!

deer man
March 18th, 2005, 09:06 PM
john James

you remind me of our Michigan hunting family.knowing what your set up will do ,is whats most important.there is to many guys that keep punching numbers ,and some of us just plain hunt.i have been criticized for using big headed rockets for Michigan whitetails,but i know what my set up will do.I'm also from a family that has produced well over a 100 Mich bow killed deer.
so congratulation to your hunting family on the great hunting of elk you guys have done,let the skeptics wonder, good hunting

Jim

johnhames
March 18th, 2005, 09:21 PM
john James

you remind me of our Michigan hunting family.knowing what your set up will do ,is whats most important.there is to many guys that keep punching numbers ,and some of us just plain hunt.i have been criticized for using big headed rockets for Michigan whitetails,but i know what my set up will do.I'm also from a family that has produced well over a 100 Mich bow killed deer.
so congratulation to your hunting family on the great hunting of elk you guys have done,let the skeptics wonder, good hunting

Jim

Thanks Jim. We all love to elk hunt and work hard at getting better. Each time we get outsmarted we seminar the situation, figure out what went wrong and adjust our stradigy for the next opportunity. The harder I work, the luckier I get, but it is a work in progress. Bad luck is usually the result of failing to make your own good luck, but with 100 deer you already know that. Like Clint said, "A man's got to know his limitations". I would just add a good hunter eliminates as many of those limitations as possible. We are starting to get it figured out. John