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View Full Version : Everything I know about paper tuning....



Jabwa
March 15th, 2005, 09:43 AM
After over 5 years of paper tuning virtually every night in the basement with Browning, PSE, Hoyt, duallys, Cam.5, and Unis, I have reached some conclusions: If you can get a bullet hole from 1 yd all the way out to 10 yards you have a perfect bow (no twist at all in the limbs, perfectly matched limbs deflection and perfectly level nock travel). This bow will probably shoot very tight groups. I am told one identical rifle out of 10 will do this also. If your bow will not shoot bullet holes, you can tune it (i.e. get correct centershot, nock position, correct draw weight) to shoot as well as the "perfect" bow. Why? Because arrows have fletching and it is their job to straighten out arrow flight. The other 9 identical rifles will not because bullets don't have fletching. I have seen 2312's shot out of a 36# bow with a 26" draw with a relatively new shooter behind the bow shoot a 292 Vegas. I have seen 2512's shot out of a 50# bow with 29" draw shoot 297-299 Vegas consistently by a 68 year old archer. My bow is a round wheel bow set at 50# at a 29" draw, perfectly tuned and it shoots 2512's cut at 33" with a 242 grain point through paper with a 2" up tear. The arrows seem to know where I want them to go and they go there sometimes even when they are not aimed there when the bow goes off- this is, IMHO, what you are looking for (called "forgiveness"?) in a properly tuned bow. I can shoot a variety of arrows of different spine and they all tear the same. (Yes, I have tried changing the timing on this bow but it only makes things worse). Oh, my wife has won our 3D triple crown 2 years running with arrows spined at 0.690, cut at 26.5" with a 50 gr point out of a hard cam 50# bow. If you check AA, these arrows are off the chart weak, but.... In one of these shoots she outscored everyone except for one of the male Pro's! How do I tune? First, I try to get the best paper tear I can, then for indoor shooting, I shoot at a vertical line at 20 yards. Minute changes in arrow rest location make a big difference (a Pro Tuner is perfect). Then I shoot at a horizontal line and adjust my tiller slightly until I can put 3 arrows touching the line. For outdoors I do the same, but add a 20 and 40 yard group at a vertical line using only my 20 yard sight mark or pin. If arrows go to the right at 40 yards, I move rest to the left or vice versa. Again, tiny changes can make a big difference.

Bottom line: Too many people obsess over those stupid bullet holes!!

SpotShy
March 15th, 2005, 01:14 PM
Jabwa,

As I mentioned in an earlier post. Paper tuning was designed for those shooting finger released equipment. The only validity that I can establish for this method of tuning is determining if I have a shaft close to correct spine. It is one of a series of tests that can assist an archer in reaching a good tune but not the be all end all. I too have had much success with set-ups that are not by the Easton Shaft Selection chart considered "correct". Much depends on the distance of the shot and the archer's ability to do things in a consistant manner. Even poor arrow flight can result in a direct hit as long as the archer repeats the exact shot sequence. It is important that folks understand that arrow charts are only suggestions. There are too many varibles in set-ups for anything to be considered a rule. We have all seen folks shoot impressive games of 300 60X while utilizing a 2613 weighing 900 plus grains out of a 50lb bow. A bit overspined according to the charts? I have even been quite successful in accurately shooting 4.3 grains per inch shafts out of my 3D set-up when we have all been conditioned to believe it is unlawful to go below 5 gpi. I have come to a distinct conclusion that in archery all things are relevant. Bottom line is that the bow only does one thing, launches an arrow. Everything else is on the archer himself.

Techy
March 15th, 2005, 01:34 PM
If you can get a bullet hole from 1 yd all the way out to 10 yards you have a perfect bow (no twist at all in the limbs, perfectly matched limbs deflection and perfectly level nock travel).

Question...

I shot perfect bullet holes from 1 to 10 yards (bareshaft) with my old BT Extreme and I know that it didn't have perfect nock travel, and it had to have had limb twist to some degree due to the cable gaurd.

So I guess I don't understand this statement.


I do agree that the arrow charts are more of a suggestion. :smile:

SpotShy
March 15th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Techy,

At 1 yd, an arrow shot from a bow is about as unstable as a bottle rocket shot from a coke bottle (well maybe not that bad). When the energy of the limbs is transfered to the string and on to the arrow many things happen. As we all know energy can not be created or destroyed. Therefore it it is either absorbed or turned into vibration or noise. The arrow can only absorb a portion of the energy and the rest you hear as noise and feel as shock as it passes through the riser. The arrow experiences a brief overload and responds by flexing as it heads down range. If you don't believe this watch some of the Easton tech videos in slow mo. The arrow continues to flex or paradox until the excess energy is expelled and it returns to a somewhat stable state where it regains its composure, and begins to be controlled by the point weight and the fletching. At this point it will take a directional course. In my opinion, especially with aluminum, this process is going to last more than a few feet. Personally I could careless about how the thing flies at 1 yd. I am more concerned about how good it is at the distances I plan on hitting something. Say 10 to 50 yds. So, to sum it up. IMHO, a bullitt hole at 1 yd is worthless unless I can get the same result at 20. Not to say it can't happen, but the chances are slim due to the fact that the arrow is still stabilizing at 1 yd. Therefore why not start at 10yds. Besides, what is paper telling you other than your close or way off.

Techy
March 15th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Techy,

At 1 yd, an arrow shot from a bow is about as unstable as a bottle rocket shot from a coke bottle (well maybe not that bad). When the energy of the limbs is transfered to the string and on to the arrow many things happen. As we all know energy can not be created or destroyed. Therefore it it is either absorbed or turned into vibration or noise. The arrow can only absorb a portion of the energy and the rest you hear as noise and feel as shock as it passes through the riser. The arrow experiences a brief overload and responds by flexing as it heads down range. IMHO, a bullitt hole at 1 yd is worthless unless I can get the same result at 20. Not to say it can't happen, but the chances are slim due to the fact that the arrow is still stabilizing at 1 yd. Therefore why not start at 10yds. Besides, what is paper telling you other than your close or way off.

Oops, I wasn't thinking. I wrote 1 - 10 yards because that is what I was thinking after looking at his post. I have a ten yard range at work and I tuned it from about 3 or 4 yards - 10 yards. It was a bare shaft and it was a bullet hole, but I didn't move up to 1 yard. Your right that would be a little tough. My bad :tongue:

The bare shaft did shoot bullets out to 60 yards. I was playing around one day in the yard :teeth:

In sumation I agree with you, I just typed the wrong numbers to begin with. :embarasse

Techy
March 15th, 2005, 04:15 PM
Techy,

In my opinion, especially with aluminum, this process is going to last more than a few feet.

This is very true. Carbon stabilizes is about 1/2 the distance as Aluminum though. At least that is what I have read and experienced.

Jabwa
March 15th, 2005, 06:57 PM
Techy:

What I meant when I said a bullet hole from 1 to 10 yards meant you had a "perfect" bow was that it was capable of shooting an particular arrow perfectly. This would occur, I feel, only by chance on occasion. Serendipity! Enjoy it because it won't last!
In many cases I would agree with you concerning paper testing and arrow spine. But here is a curious example: I can tune my wife's bow to shoot a perfect bullet hole, but when she shoots the same setup, she gets a 2" left tear! Right spine for me, wrong for her????

Spotshy:

Actually in my experience getting a bow to bullethole at 1 yard is very easy with perfect centershot and a level arrow. The reason being that the back end is in direct line with the point. The paper tear (unless the arrow is very weak) does not depend on the flexing of the arrow, but depends only on the back end being out of line with the point.

I read many things about paper tuning and most if not all of the "rules" I have read have been contradicted at one time or another by my own testing. For this reason, I believe paper tuning is more trial and error than science. I also believe archers get "hooked" on paper tuning more than other method and are lead to believe it is the whole answer to tuning a bow....NOT!

Techy
March 16th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Techy:

This would occur, I feel, only by chance on occasion. Serendipity! Enjoy it because it won't last!


In many cases I would agree with you concerning paper testing and arrow spine. But here is a curious example: I can tune my wife's bow to shoot a perfect bullet hole, but when she shoots the same setup, she gets a 2" left tear! Right spine for me, wrong for her????




Cunfuzzzed again. Won't last? Last time I put a bare shaft through it was months later and it was still perfect. Although that was probably six months ago, but I bet it is still darn close.

As for you and your wife shooting the same setup with different results. I have found that that is usually attributed to the fact your individual forms are consistent, but not with each other. She does something different (consistently) than you. I could always be misunderstanding your statement though. Clarify if I am. :tongue:

Chief P
March 16th, 2005, 12:39 PM
A bow is a machine. It will repeat the exact same process over and over. Tuning your bow is not as important as you would think. Consistency on the human factor is key.

Put an untuned bow in a hooter shooter and use the exact same arrows every time the arrows will hit the same hole every time.

Jabwa
March 16th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Techy:

With regard to my wife getting a 2" left tear and me getting a bullet hole with the same setup: If paper tuning is good for determining correct arrow spine, then she should shoot a different arrow, right? No, you say, the 2" left tear is because of form differences. Please show me an arrow chart or a computer program that selects arrows based on form differences.

Excuse me if I seem harsh, but there are as many reasons for bad paper tears as there are stars in the sky. The above example shows that an arrow that according to the charts, AA, and TAP is way underspined for her bow, shoots wonderful groups at any distance over 15 yards. The paper tear when she shoots indicates a weak spine. However, when I shoot it, it indicates that the spine is right on! You say now it is due to form. My point is, HOW DOES ONE KNOW WHAT TO ATTRIBUTE IT TO? In actuality, it is probably due to the draw length being too short for me!

SpotShy
March 16th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Jabwa,

I saw you question to Techy and wanted to respond if I may. What Techy is trying to explain is that your wife may be imposing a degree of torque on the bow that you do not. Draw length should not be a factor as long as you both are pulling it into the wall. To prove this point of form and torque to yourself, shoot the bow with a different grip/hand position. I bet you get a different result. Or have the wife shoot it with a wide open hand. I have seen people shoot for hours at paper and get nothing but ugly tears, only to have someone else pick the bow up and shoot a perfect bullet hole. Torque at the release hand can also result in different paper tears. This is the exact reason why paper tuning is not a good test for much of anything, especially if one reads to far into it. It is also my bet that if either of you back off to 12 yds and fire through the paper, both will get a different result using your normal grip. Paper tuning has to be done from a sort of scientific approach. You have to isolate varibles. If your wife shoots the set-up then you have to tune for her. The same rig will not perform the same for everyone, thus there are more than one bow/arrow option. As you say the shaft may be out of the so called spec according to some chart, however the from in which your wife shoots the equipment may lend itself to consistancy with the shaft regardless. I guarantee a shooting maching can group with the set-up regardless of how out of spec it is supposed to be. Now given what I have said, if your wife shoots the shaft at 12-15 yds through paper and after making evey possible nocking point/ center shot adjustment she gets a tear more than 1/2 inch, I'd say there is a spine issue. But then again if she can group her arrows and hit what she aims at, what difference does it really make?

Jabwa
March 16th, 2005, 06:47 PM
Spotshy:

You missed my point. If I took this arrow and shot it with a bow with a short draw length like hers and the arrow bullet holed, wouldn't I assume the arrow was perfectly spined for my setup? Of course there is individual variation and form differences, but how do you program that into the archery programs or arrow charts? This means the arrow charts can be way off! By the way, I must respectfully disagree on the short draw length not being the cause of the difference- changing draw length can have a significant effect on handle torque. Of course, if you change the draw length on your bow it will also change the draw weight and power stroke- two additional variables that effect arrow spine needs! ;)

Jorge Oliveira
March 16th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I'm a finger's shooter and to me, the arrow spine tables became close to useless when I moved from an old wheelie (very good bare shaft tune using the tables/programs spines) to a modern cam bow...

buffer
March 16th, 2005, 10:42 PM
hi,i have been doing a lot of reading on tuning.i shoot a hoyt cybertec.it was shooting fine but had some time so i decide to paper tune.i tried at 2-3 yds.i had to move the rest about 1/4" to the left to get it to shot bullet holes and then i had to move it back about 1/2 that distace to get my center shot.so the next way i tried was to find center shot first which hoyt manual said 3/4" from riser to center of rest would be a good starting point.i lined up the string,the rest and the sight in a staight line and started with that.it was very close at 10,20,30 yds so i fine tuned it.next i set up for paper test and shot from 10 yrds,it was a bullet hole.next i shot from 20 yrds,it was a bullet hole.i didn't bother to play around with it anymore,so paper tuning at close range didn't work for me at all,i think as long as you have a good center shot along with good shooting form you will do ok.i know you have to have your bow somewhat tuned but i think people put more into tuning than really needs to be.but thats just my thoughts

dtrkyman
March 16th, 2005, 11:04 PM
i was talking with josh from spot hogg and he has a bow that has perfect nok travel vertically and horizontally and he said it will shoot bullet holes in the hooter shooter with any arrow he puts in it.which when you think about makes sense if everything is traveling in a perfect line then there should be no affect on the projectile.he claimed if a straw was heavy enough it would shoot straight also,not sure about that, but how cool would that be.

Jabwa
March 19th, 2005, 03:36 AM
You bet! When you do get that perfect bow, it seems any arrow will bullet hole. Just make sure they are all the same diameter :D .

But what about the less than perfect bows (probably 99.9%)? Also, don't forget Josh was talking about shooting with a machine. What about form and bow torque differences? All of these things make it difficult to assess the true reason we get a bad paper tear, and in many cases one must simply move on to group testing and let the arrow's fletching do its job.

andy_smaga
March 19th, 2005, 04:44 AM
From my experience, when shooting through paper with a release aid the left and right tears are not indication of spine being weak or stiff.
I can be wrong, but it's my observation.

Marcus
March 19th, 2005, 06:00 AM
From my experience, when shooting through paper with a release aid the left and right tears are not indication of spine being weak or stiff.
I can be wrong, but it's my observation.
Spot on. I have watched an archer shoot ACE's from 720-420 spines from a 60lb compound bow and get a bullet hole with every single one. If spine was a factor this would not be the case.
Also have shot 7 ACE's spreading between teh same range with 3 of them bare shafts (of different spine) and putt all 7 into the 10 at 18m on a vegas face. Proves that bareshaft tuning means nothing.
I have also seen the same archer abive grip the bow below the grip and shoot a bullet hole with all the above arrows.

AKDoug
March 19th, 2005, 02:49 PM
Yesterday I did a walk back tune out to 50 yards with my 3D setup to set center shot with my light carbon arrows. When I was done I was very happy. Arrow flight looked good and I was grouping at well under 1" per 10 yards and I was happy.

Went to shoot league last night and shot it through paper for grins and ended up with a 1" right tear. Of course I tried to tune out the tear by adjusting center shot. Ended up moving it 1/4" over to get a bullet hole. Adjusted poundage over a 10# range with no effect. Just ended up putting it back where I started and shot a 300 45X in league....the exact same score I shot last week with my bullet hole shooting heavy aluminum spot arrows.

My bow shoots fine with a 1" tear I can't get rid of...so paper tuning has once again proven a waste of time for me.

AKDoug
March 19th, 2005, 07:54 PM
This bow with a 1" right tear shot was able to group at less than 3"s three time today. That's good enough for me.

Jabwa
March 21st, 2005, 01:47 AM
Marcus:

I have done the same- bullet holes with several arrows all of different spine. I attribute this to perfect nock travel and the arrow being directly in line with the force applied to it. However, Many more times, when I had an arrow that bullet holed, I could get a left or right tear simply by increasing or decreasing peak weight just a bit. Paper tuning is excellent for determining perfect spine, but it doesn't always work, for many reasons I know of, and many reasons that I haven't discovered!

One thing I do know: Unless you have close to the correct arrow spine, none of the usual things (i.e. changing peak weight, changing point weight, etc.) have any effect. This, I feel, is why many people feel paper tuning is a waste of time.

A.K. Doug:

Yep. I paper tune the best I can- sometimes bullet holes, often a nock high tear (must be me, because many different bows give me the same tear), and then shoot at a vertical line, 20 to 40 yards using the same sight mark. I move my rest in or out accordingly. Then set my nock point by shooting at a horizontal line, the last fine adjustments by changing tiller slightly. Then I check through paper again- sometimes not so good, but usually pretty close to a bullet hole.

If you can't get a bullet hole, don't obsess over it- after all, the reason we fletch arrows is to correct bad arrow flight and those little plastic things do a fantastic job! :D :D

Techy
March 21st, 2005, 12:07 PM
Spotshy:

You missed my point. If I took this arrow and shot it with a bow with a short draw length like hers and the arrow bullet holed, wouldn't I assume the arrow was perfectly spined for my setup? Of course there is individual variation and form differences, but how do you program that into the archery programs or arrow charts? This means the arrow charts can be way off! By the way, I must respectfully disagree on the short draw length not being the cause of the difference- changing draw length can have a significant effect on handle torque. Of course, if you change the draw length on your bow it will also change the draw weight and power stroke- two additional variables that effect arrow spine needs! ;)

I didn't realize that you changed the drawlength. I thought you and your wife were the same setup. Of course Draw length will change things. I didn't catch that part. My bad. :angel: