: Fact or Fiction: Tiller Tuning for better aiming
March 16th, 2005, 02:59 PM
I was speaking with a friend last evening concerning my problem with low-locking on 12 rings at 6:00, where I can sometimes become epoxied. I have been down the T.P. path a few years ago and know what hell it is, what the symptoms are and spent a year training to successfully rid myself of it. After our conversation and given that, I truely feel my problem has one, two or both causes. Either I am shooting with too high of a bow arm shoulder or possibly the bow that could be better tiller tuned to provide a better string angle/pivot point. The shoulder problem is being corrected in practice and I have seen improvements in imediate target aquisition and ability to hold steadier. However, I am wondering how much improvement can really be gained in tiller tuning? I understand the whole concept of tiller tuning but the process seems fairly tedious due to having to continously adjust the nocking point after each position change. My question here is, is the time and work worth the result? Just to assist anyone with knowledge that may respond, I shoot an original Mathews Conquest Pro with a mini-max cam. Yeah, I'm still shooting one of the oldies. I also shoot a Rival Pro with Mini-max and have the same issues while shooting it. Both are currently set at even till. Any advice or testimony would be appreciated. I have heard both pro and con on the idea of tiller tuning and am trying to make an educated decision whether or not to bark up that tree. I'm one of those guys that like to spend more time shooting than tinkering, especially if the chance of improvement is slim.
March 16th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Another one of those controversial subjects... and an area (tiller tuing)where the meek and inexperienced should not tread. :omg:
I know of record setting shooters that don’t give “tiller tinkering” a second thought, believing that putting too much emphasis on tiller settings is an overkill. Conversely, I am aware that there are bowhunters that will break out the measuring devices and shoot string after string until they feel they have their tiller settings precise.... for them. For me, being I use a string loop (puts my draw directly behind the arrow), I set my tiller at zero for both limbs (even tiller) and forget about it.
For those that are not hep to what adjusting tiller settings is supposed to do, simply put; tiller adjusting is suppose to even out the draw pressure on the bow limbs so that when you draw your bow your sight alignment (sight pin/scope) for your bow and your form is not excessively pulled down or pulled up.
If you feel your sight is forcibly being pulled down, you can decrease the draw-weight on the bottom limb (turn the limb bolt out) or increase the draw-weight on the top limb (turn the limb bolt in). Reverse, if bow (pin/scope) seems to be pulling up. Once you feel your are able to comfortably and consistently put your pin on the spot, then you set your string nock and your string peep and that part is supposedly done.
If I were to again concern myself with tiller tuning, from personal experience the above step is where I would stop. I once got techy with full-blown tiller tuning and got my bow and my form and my head so screwed up, I began to believe that maybe I had been fooling myself for years and never truly knew how to tune a bow.
The next phase involves shooting numerous strings and looking for low hits and highs hits that MIGHT be an indicator that you can further fine tune your tiller settings, BUT before you do so, you have to be positive that your shot was so perfect you do not need to consider that the cause for a low or high hit was a bad aim, a bad release, a flawed arrow, etc, etc. This phase of tiller tuning is where you can really screw things up and throw everything out of whack...like I did.
Although I compose and maintain a final setup record for each bow, it took me several days of solid shooting to put everything back where everything had been fine which included my confidence with the particular bow.
Personally, I would leave the full method of tiller tuning to the pro shooters that regularly shoot competitive and want to fine tune their bow and know how to properly use the method.
March 16th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I just went through this myself. Tried changing the timing, changing the tiller but to no avail. Turned out I was putting too much weight on my front foot. Sometimes the answers are so simple! I now consciously shift my weight to my back foot on the draw and presto! No more problem. You might also try pivoting back at the waist to raise the sight- moving your bow arm up just destroys your alignment.
March 16th, 2005, 09:55 PM
I am fairly new to all of this but, I tried it and it worked for me. Here is what I did.. Have good goups but not great I turned out top limb bolt 1/4 shot a little tighter goups humm..tried one more 1/4 turn the group open a hair .So, then came out a 1/4 on bottom limb closed real tight groups tore up my arrows ..I was just thinking I could put them back if needed as I marked them and never went a full turn.. Now, maybe it was just the arrows or I hold better with this pressure setting ect.. I don't know but, it seem to help me for sure .
March 16th, 2005, 10:50 PM
My bow holds better with 1/2 turn off the top limb......but the recoil feels better with 1/2 turn off the bottom. Hold is more important to me though, so thats where its at. ;)
I can group at either setting, or with them even.
March 17th, 2005, 01:12 PM
IMHO.... tiller tuning does affect how the bow holds in your hand, but what you're REALLY doing is micro tuning your nocking point for the best possible grouping. Turning one limb bolt in or out makes very fine changes to your nock point in relation to the rest. I feel that when when those adjustments are made and your groups tighten up it has more to do with the change in nock point that how the bow is sitting in your hand.
Just my 2 cents tho....
March 17th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Not sure what you use for a stabilizer but what worked for me was to play with various weights on the end of my Doinker! LOL!
I had a problem with dropping out the bottom which is a little differant problem than freezing at the bottom. When I found the correct weight for the stabilizer tip my hold is rock solid.
Something to try for the freeze problem if you are not already is to try and enter the X from the top. Without shooting just draw to a spot above the X and let your sight "slowly" drift down to the X. Hold there long enough to make the shot and let down. If you go below the X let down and start again. It takes muscle to lift it back into the spot and this is where the problem starts. This routine works really well up close @ about 5 or 10 yards so you have no trouble holding and seeing the X in your sight.
I have found most all TP and holding problems can be cured with a few weeks of shooting up close. You can see and hold on the X very easy and if you want to shoot you will never miss the X. Your brain will get use to this. Then work your way back at 2.5 yard intervals
Hope this helps..dave!
March 17th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Go to the Archer's Avantage web site. Terry has a real good article about Tiller Tuning. Tiller Tuning makes a Drastic difference in how the bow holds on the Spot.
April 2nd, 2005, 02:12 AM
Ok so if turning one limb counters the other limb "tugging",that would mean if you turn one limb enough the bow will hold itself up!
Put any bow in a hooter shooter and shoot it at ANY tiller set up and it will shoot the same hole.....that my friend is a fact!
April 2nd, 2005, 08:49 AM
Anything that causes an archer to freeze somewhere other than where he wants to aim is some form of target panic. Despite the articles by "experts", tiller-tuning is only another form of fine-tuning adjustment to get the best possible grouping for your setup. It is NOT something that will help you aim in a specific spot.
If a bow naturally "wanted" to hold low, how could you aim at an uphill target? And how come you never hear of someone with the same problem complaining about holding high?
The only other possibility is that the whole bow is just too mass-heavy and you just can't keep it up.
April 2nd, 2005, 08:55 AM
Is 100% correct. Holding low is the archers promblem
April 2nd, 2005, 09:00 AM
I told myself not to weigh in on this thread, but I sometimes can’t help myself.
Tiller tuning a modern cam assisted compound bow will not appreciably affect the holding of the bow. It will affect nock travel and nock point.
Prove it to yourself, find a large hook or use a center pivot draw board, the bow will not pivot, even with one limb bottomed and the other backed out 5 turns…
What will affect the settling point of a bow; is your form, the mass weight of the bow, the mass to load weight ratio of the bow and the balance of the bow.
April 2nd, 2005, 11:18 PM
javi is exactly correct....
April 2nd, 2005, 11:41 PM
In my experiance the only useful thing tiller tuning does on a compound bow is allow for slight changes in grip angle. For some folks this might be of some benifit.
It *can* be used as a means to fine tune a compound bow but so can a micro adjustable rest.
On a recurve or longbow it has much more obvious and dramatic benifits.