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View Full Version : Dropaway rests: Something to ponder...



Jabwa
March 21st, 2005, 11:22 AM
A 30" arrow has approximately 2' in front of the fletches. If a bow shoots that arrow 280 fps as it leaves the bow, and assuming a linear increase in velocity over that distance, then the average speed of the arrow from full draw until it leaves the bow is 140 fps. Okay, then 2'/140 fps = 0.014286 seconds, which is the time the dropaway has to get out of the way before the fletch hits it. This is way faster than my reaction time. It seems to me like a very short time for a mechanical gadget to physically drop out of the way. Any thoughts?

JAVI
March 21st, 2005, 11:28 AM
I've seen several on independent high speed video (not infomercial) and they pretty much seem to do the job... :eek:

silverback
March 21st, 2005, 11:30 AM
But you would only have a linear increase in velocity if you had no let off. At the wall for an 80% bow @70lbs, the force on the arrow is 14lbs, but at peak it is 70. Since the force being applied is not constant, the increase in velocity cannot be linear.

You would have to plot out the force over the draw cycle to determine what the average velocity is during the shot.

Jabwa
March 21st, 2005, 11:34 AM
Jave:

I guess so, but the pros around here seem to have ignored them and there sure seems to be a lot of problems with them if the threads on here are any indication. If my reaction time is slower than the time it takes for the arrow to leave the bow, then I couldn't be effecting the arrow, and some feel that the guidance provided by the rest is an important factor. What about those factors, guys? Any thoughts?

JAVI
March 21st, 2005, 11:37 AM
even though I use a TT for my hunting bows, and am known to tinker with my bows a little too much... I still use a ProTuner on my target bows... Why???? I feel that I have more adjustability and control of my arrow flight and the KISS principle....:D with the tuner style rest....

Jabwa
March 21st, 2005, 11:38 AM
Yes, I tend to agree.

Techy
March 21st, 2005, 11:39 AM
I've seen several on independent high speed video (not infomercial) and they pretty much seem to do the job... :eek:

I have seen these also :wink:

and my fletching tells me mine does the job.

Chief P
March 21st, 2005, 12:11 PM
very short time for a mechanical gadget to physically drop out of the way. Any thoughts?

Actually it does not 'drop out of the way', it is forced down by a spring. Now you have to take into account the speed of the rest dropping.

Hollowpoint
March 21st, 2005, 01:25 PM
I believe they do drop fast enough......but I also believe a conventional rest is more tuneable and more forgiving of inconsistancys in the shot.

BDZ65
March 22nd, 2005, 10:24 AM
Why would you not believe these rests could drop in 14mS. Your car engine running @ 5000 RPM goes through an exhaust stroke every 24mS and the exhaust valve must open and close much quicker than that, at least 10X.

By my calculations, with a frictionless system gravity alone will move the rest approximately .085" in 15mS. If I put a spring force on this system to overcome friction or better yet provide an additional acceleration force, dropping .2" in 15ms would be no problem. I do not shoot a drop away style rest, but it seems to me they work, at least in theory.

Brian

Jabwa
March 22nd, 2005, 01:07 PM
Awright awready! Just asking. By the way, What does "work in theory" mean? :D

rye
March 23rd, 2005, 03:26 PM
Way too many engineers on this sight.

Pinball
March 23rd, 2005, 04:22 PM
I feel like a small old man when I read all that graphing, force curve etc. These guys are way over my head but I respect their knowledge. Anyway, I can not find any contact period with my DZ and Blazer vanes. So that tells me it's working. :D

Daniel Boone
March 23rd, 2005, 10:13 PM
I saw it for myself the TT does the job well. Many bought videos at KC of there arrow flight. If they were touching someone would have mention it.

NY911
March 24th, 2005, 09:28 AM
I noticed the other night in leauge (I had to break out some new arrows (white fletched)) that the TT shakey Hunter was indeed marking up the bottom of the fletches it contacts. I was quite trouble by it.

I had never noticed it before, or maybe it just started doing it.

Jabwa
March 24th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Okay, so there is plenty of time for it to drop. What if it drops too fast?

Chief P
March 24th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Once you release it doesn't need to be supported any more, it's on it's way. If it did need to be supported, you'd have to support it all the way to the target.

I shoot with cock feather up. Even more clearance that way.

SirWilliam
March 24th, 2005, 03:17 PM
I have never had any problems with clearance at all on the three drop away rests that I have had experience with...TT, Q.A.D. ULtra, and Muzzy Zero-Effect. No contact...easy tuning...and super accurate. Just my .02 worth. :D

Double Lung 'Em
March 24th, 2005, 04:34 PM
I've seen video provided by CousinDave that shows that total fletch clearance isn't necessary, pretty shocking to say the least.....

I used to use the TT but had always had poor results with any kind of broadhead, and switched to a Spring Steel and haven't had problems since, with fixed of mechanical hitting with fp's.

Jabwa
March 25th, 2005, 12:35 AM
I started this thing because I am intrigued by the concept of a fallaway. Have heard many arguments both pro and con. My experience consists of watching other shooters and all their problems. Several of the shooters I have shot with have had screws come loose and other problems, and one of my friends field scores went from top 3 to in the dump when he switched to a fallaway. Although I admit I would like to try one, I keep coming back to the old rule "If it ain't broke don't fix it." As long as you get fletch clearance, why change?

Hollowpoint
March 25th, 2005, 01:06 AM
I can tune (even at field distances) with fletch contact on a flipper........what most people dont realize about drop aways is this......spine and node point (overhang) is WAY more critical!! It has to be perfect. ;)
Especially for me....I shoot fingers. :eek:

WackmasterJ
April 1st, 2005, 08:03 PM
Good experiment for ya...take some spray on foot powder and spray it on your drop away rest arm...draw and shoot an arrow...if you have any marks other than that of the shaft then you know...the fletching will leave marks if it is not dropping fast enough.

2ndchance
April 2nd, 2005, 02:10 AM
whackmaster,

i read this whole thread thinking "boy why dont they just test fletch clearence the easy way"

then i read the last post and you read my mind! :D :beer:


Ty

Donhudd
April 2nd, 2005, 08:32 AM
Hollowpoint10

I cannot even imagine shooting fingers without a Berger Button or similar type side support rest. When you add side support to an arrow, you make the spine of the arrow more critical. Non-side support rests (lizard tounge, prong, launcher) lessen the importance of spine on arrow flight. The drop away rest is just a step furthur to reduce fletching contact effect on arrow flight.

I have been using TT dropaway rest for a few years now and the only problem I have had was when I changed bow string and had the rest dropping too soon. Arrow flight was still good but I was getting fletching contact on one vane. When properly set, I can shoot without regard as to vane/nock position. I pay more attention to vane to cable clearance to to rest to vane position.

Field points and broadheads fly to same point of impact on both my TT dropaway equiped bows.

Hollowpoint
April 4th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Don,
I hear that all the time....but they work well for me. :smile:
My DZ's do have side support (we designed them for finger shooters), they just dont have it for very long. ;)

dunk50
April 4th, 2005, 03:28 PM
What PINBALL said to the 10th something??

cassellm
April 4th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Coat the vane edges with lipstick and shoot. If the vanes hit you'll know. Adjust until there is no mark. You can also place a small spot of lipstick on the arrow shaft at the bottom and shoot it. Start up front, shoot and and there should be sign on the arm, wipe off, remark furtherback and reshoot until you finally get to spot where the shaft doesn't hit. This will tell you how much of the shaft runs across the arm/launcher before it starts to drop out of the way..

Jorge Oliveira
April 4th, 2005, 06:16 PM
My DZ's do have side support (we designed them for finger shooters), they just dont have it for very long. ;)

When I finally solve my form problems (soon, I hope!), I intend to try a GKF TKO as a drop away plus a plunger...

PLASTIC PAUL
April 4th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I shoot a spring steel (Pro-Tuner) on my indoor bow and am seriously considering a drop away for my 3-D/hunting bow. I have a TKO in the dresser drawer. I have some reservations because i don't like to have any more moving parts than i have to. They seem to work for my friends though.

Shooting one with cock feather up makes sense if you are looking for optimal clearence. As far as accuracy, nothing will get me to switch out my indoor bow. spring steel is the same every time.

Anybody hunt with spring steel?

Still Trying
April 7th, 2005, 01:26 PM
I hunt with spring steel rests, stick on rubber rests, or just about ANYTHING other than a fall away or a whisker biscuit.

[QUOTE=Target Guy]
Anybody hunt with spring steel?

hansel
April 7th, 2005, 06:45 PM
My 2 cents worth, is that since switching to a drop away my shooting has improved :D

Bobmuley
April 7th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Once you release it doesn't need to be supported any more, it's on it's way. If it did need to be supported, you'd have to support it all the way to the target. And that's the reason I won't shoot one over a conventional rest. If the rest drops too early, the front of the arrow starts falling, whereas the rear of the arrow does not. I know its not likely significant enough to show in tuning...just something that I don't feel should happen. Probably only talking 0.001"s and milliseconds, but how often do obsess over minute details like that anyways. :confused:

I tried to time mine (I only shot it to get ready and to hunt with last fall) so that the rest dropped just as the fletching was getting to the rest. I also feel that the rest drops plent fast to clear the vanes...even shot my arrow with cock vane down to check it.

Friar Tuck
April 7th, 2005, 07:06 PM
I have gone from a GKF Platinum premier to a Spigarelli Drop away and I find that I am shooting better with the drop away. This could also be down to the fact that I am getting better at holding the bow at the new poundage. However there seem to be no problems with the drop away contacting too long or not enough.

I put 5 arrows into a 1" group at 35 yards on Sunday so either there is a very big magnet in the target attracting my points or I and my bow are doing something right. For my ego I am going with the second theory. I am pretty happy considering I have been shooting for about 6 months now and can only shoot once a week.

I am also going to try a GKF Infiniti drop away so I will do a write up on both.

Good luck, God speed and Hic :beer: enjoy

The Friar

1horn
April 7th, 2005, 10:45 PM
The dropaway rests work fine until the spring breaks,screws loosen or otherwise.
I have one on my 3D bow. Center rest on my hunting bow.

jonnybow
April 8th, 2005, 09:31 AM
I always tell my customers that the KISS principle is always best to stick by and then I use mechanical broadheads, good advice huh??

I know the dropaway rests work and work well for some folks. I guess a true test of any archery product is to see what the guys making the big money use and consistently use. A few years back, some pro's used dropaways because they were new and the companys that sponsored those shooters had them use the new product. Now that they aren't "new and improved" (how can you have new AND improved is beyond me!) you don't see many (if any) pros use the dropaways. Most use launcher style rests.

Personally, I think it's a fad but there are alot of folks out there using them and having great luck with them. Shoot what works FOR YOU and keep your mind open to new and different things.

Jon

JAVI
April 8th, 2005, 10:00 AM
This is my opinion, and I have no practical method of proving or disproving it…

I think the drop-away is somewhat more forgiving of form breaks than other types of rests. That is the main reason I use them on my hunting bows, I cannot always form a perfect stance or upper body “T” while shooting at game in a hunting situation.

Where I can set my stance and form I prefer the Pro Tuner and believe it gives me a slight edge in control of the arrow flight…

Again this is just my personal opinion and observation…

Chevrolet
April 14th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Do you think you would have more effect on arrow flight with two contact points with the conventional prong style rests than you would the drop away? Less contact is good IMO.

nicebucks275
April 19th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I shoot the golden key infinity drop away and swear by it.I have even turned the fletching so they will line up with the prongs just to convince myself that they drop away in time.I had absolutly no contact.I feel my group size has got better since I switched to a drop away.

CHAMPION2
April 19th, 2005, 04:00 PM
I have to agree with Javelina here. My form by no means is perfect especially in hunting situations. Until last year I shot a TM hunter style rest (NAP Quicktune 3000) micro adjust for years, Golden Key TM hunter before that, and they served me well, but I notice my groups are a lot tighter once I went to a dropaway. Maybe its all in my head, but I just seem to stack arrows in tighter groups with the dropaway than I did with the TM hunter type rests. I consider the TT to be rock solid, and do not think it is anymore prone to mechancial failure anymore than other rests I have used, but that is with my limited experience of shooting them for 2 years. Have had conventional rests malfunction in the field as well.


This is my opinion, and I have no practical method of proving or disproving it…

I think the drop-away is somewhat more forgiving of form breaks than other types of rests. That is the main reason I use them on my hunting bows, I cannot always form a perfect stance or upper body “T” while shooting at game in a hunting situation.

Where I can set my stance and form I prefer the Pro Tuner and believe it gives me a slight edge in control of the arrow flight…

Again this is just my personal opinion and observation…

Jabwa
April 20th, 2005, 07:51 PM
So far there seems to be two reasons most are using a drop-away rest: vane clearance and less shaft contact. I have no problem getting vane clearance with my shoot-thru hunting rest or my Pro Tuners. As for the "less shaft contact is good" idea, I disagree. Like BobMuley, support for my shaft is important I feel until it reaches its maximum speed. Really helps with those 2512's with 300 gr points :smile:

JPiniewski
April 20th, 2005, 08:38 PM
I am no engineer....(oh ya I forgot I am) but I know a few guys that shoot drop aways....beat them and then we will talk....

jp

strcpy
April 21st, 2005, 04:34 AM
I shoot my drop away quite a bit better than any other rest I have tried. For indoor or 3D I can't tell much of a difference, if I kept track of my scores over months I may. In NFAA field rounds - yikes - BIG difference. My groups (when I shoot correctly) don't really tighten that much, but many many less flyers at 60+ yard shots. That equals quite a few points.

Looking to pro's can be good - I try to emulate them when I can, especially when nearly all of them do a specific thing. On the other hand you need to be careful, pro's can usually get away with things mere mortals can not. I'm reminded of watching a pro-golfer a few years ago not taking a drop (and penalty) when his ball landed less than a foot from a wall. He bounced the ball off the wall and nearly hit the hole.

For pro's the group/scoring difference between a launcher and drop away is probably going to be irrelevent - they probably aren't making the mistakes that these rests absorb. But a 99.8% vs 99.9% failure rate may mean money.

At least in my experience this is true, your mileage may vary and shoot what you are confident in or what is working for you.

Deezlin
April 21st, 2005, 07:22 AM
The dropaway rests work fine until the spring breaks,screws loosen or otherwise.
I have one on my 3D bow. Center rest on my hunting bow.

My bow doesn't work well either when things get loose. They make locktite for some screws but I usually run an allen wrench set around my bow every once in a while. After a few time there is very little tightening. The more screws you have to more chance of something working loose. Does the drop away work better than the pro tuner? I don't know. I have a pro tuner on order. I used a GKF priemer before switching to the TT. I did not notice any prefromance increase, but did have a few contact issues resolved. I think the drop away is a little easier on fletching and shaft wear, becauses I did have some contact with the GKF.

I use the micro-adjustable trophy taker and have NO trouble tuning the rest.

I have been using Magnocks lately and think these have done more to improve consistancy than the rests changes did.

karday
April 21st, 2005, 10:09 AM
It seems as new products emerge upon the market, we need to step back and take a look at some of the principals that have emerged over time and have become to archery what the laws of natural gasses (Boyle's, Charles, Dalton, etc) are to science. All the bow does is determine the speed of the arrow. Matching arrow spine to a given bow might be the single most important element in performance, etc. I doubt many experts would disagree that any bow clamped in a shooting machine, regardless of tune, will have arrow after arrow occupy the same hole in a target. If that is the theoretical paradigm for a given setup then the person's results would represent the actual paradigm for the same setup. We are then in essence trying to achieve absolute zero, the elusive perpetual motion etc. If we view all of the gagets we buy and hang off our bows in that light we should be able to deduce if we are "inching: closer to the unachievable theoretical paradigm of the machine shot. In many respects, we archers unlike golfers, are lucky in that we have no central governing body that restricts the limits to which technology can bring us closer to "perfection". (notwithstanding the Olympic and shooter class limitations). Fall away rest clearly help eliminate errors induced by physical contact, but they also help "free" the arrow from human induced torque. Now the degree to which it does that has yet to be quantified. One thing that also needs to be remembered IMO, is that as compounds have become faster the error induced by the human factor has grown. The price you pay for the additional speed can be accuracy sensitivities to movement. e.g. an arrow traveling at 300 fps has less time to correct a human induced error than and arrow traveling at 220 fps. IS there a point at which the COmpound bow maxes out in its' evolution? Not sure but one thing is certain, as anything aproaches 100% the effort to move it closer becomes exponential vs linear. Having a test process that validates innovations across a group of archers with some type of standardized handicap system vs being shot by professional archers that can shoot 60x's with any equipment would certainly go a long way towards reducing the volume of "what the heck is this thing for" hardware in my archery archive box.

CHAMPION2
April 21st, 2005, 10:11 AM
Very well said!


It seems as new products emerge upon the market, we need to step back and take a look at some of the principals that have emerged over time and have become to archery what the laws of natural gasses (Boyle's, Charles, Dalton, etc) are to science. All the bow does is determine the speed of the arrow. Matching arrow spine to a given bow might be the single most important element in performance, etc. I doubt many experts would disagree that any bow clamped in a shooting machine, regardless of tune, will have arrow after arrow occupy the same hole in a target. If that is the theoretical paradigm for a given setup then the person's results would represent the actual paradigm for the same setup. We are then in essence trying to achieve absolute zero, the elusive perpetual motion etc. If we view all of the gagets we buy and hang off our bows in that light we should be able to deduce if we are "inching: closer to the unachievable theoretical paradigm of the machine shot. In many respects, we archers unlike golfers, are lucky in that we have no central governing body that restricts the limits to which technology can bring us closer to "perfection". (notwithstanding the Olympic and shooter class limitations). Fall away rest clearly help eliminate errors induced by physical contact, but they also help "free" the arrow from human induced torque. Now the degree to which it does that has yet to be quantified. One thing that also needs to be remembered IMO, is that as compounds have become faster the error induced by the human factor has grown. The price you pay for the additional speed can be accuracy sensitivities to movement. e.g. an arrow traveling at 300 fps has less time to correct a human induced error than and arrow traveling at 220 fps. IS there a point at which the COmpound bow maxes out in its' evolution? Not sure but one thing is certain, as anything aproaches 100% the effort to move it closer becomes exponential vs linear. Having a test process that validates innovations across a group of archers with some type of standardized handicap system vs being shot by professional archers that can shoot 60x's with any equipment would certainly go a long way towards reducing the volume of "what the heck is this thing for" hardware in my archery archive box.

bullethole
April 29th, 2005, 10:05 PM
A V8 engine with conventional points - the points open and close 800 times a second at 3000 RPM. thats a pretty fast mechanical movement.

Bees
April 29th, 2005, 10:32 PM
I got slow motion videos and of some pro's and one of them has a muzzy drop away on a bow, and yep! the rest gets driven out of the way in plenty of time before the fletch shows up. Just as advertised by the way. :thumbs_up

Jabwa
April 29th, 2005, 10:54 PM
I guess they work for a lot of people, and that's fine. If you follow the bow tuning forum as I do, however, you will realize there are a vast number of archers out there who are having one h____ of a time getting these things to work! I, for one, shy away from additional problems. I get perfect clearance and arrow flight from my Pro Tuner and TM Hunter style rest for hunting and I think I'll go with the old adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". NOTE: Usually I don't follow this old adage :o

ogles615
April 29th, 2005, 10:59 PM
I have to throw my two cents worth in as well, I have a PSE Bruin L3 which is basically a cheap to mid priced bow. I was shooting it with a TM Hunter style rest on it. It was very inconsistant and very unforgiving and I had it to three different bow shops trying to get it to shoot better if you count the shop that I bought this bow from. I had my local bow shop install Trophy Ridge Drop Zone drop away rest and basically turned it into a nail driver. Do I beleive they work? Yes I do. Do I think they are the best thing out there? I've only used to different kinds of rest, The TM and the drop zone. All I can say is the the drop zone is definately many times better that the TM.

BigD_N_Cherokee
May 1st, 2005, 11:41 AM
To each his own.
After changing over to a trophy taker my groups have improved dramatically.
When looking around at league night at the club I noticed that those folks shooting the most consistent groups had a fall away rest. When visiting with them they allowed that the drop away was the most forgiving should there be any bow kick or hand torque. I believe them.
I've talked to many shooters who have walked into their pro shop and have been talked out of a drop away. I for one was told that you just can't beat the whisker biscuit for simplicity when I asked which drop away I should consider. Why? Because the pro didn't want to take time and effort to tune the drop away! He wanted to mount a whisker biscuit, eyeball the centershot, and send me on my way. (after all, time IS money)
It may take a little more effort, but once a drop away is tuned correctly it's a great accessory.
However, we may as well face it. There are some folks out there that should have all allen wrenches hidden from them. A drop away may not be the best choice for them.

As I say, To each his own and I love my Tropy Taker Shakey Hunter.

BigD

jrhdc
May 1st, 2005, 04:49 PM
They work... Do the math as many times and as many ways, it drops in time for the fletching to clear it.

I swear sometimes simple things were put on this earth to confuse the wise man!!! :confused:

Pinball
May 1st, 2005, 11:13 PM
I set my TR DZ up so it raises the arm in the last few inches of my draw per instructions. So the rest is already dropping before the string has traveled just a few inches. The most critical thing to me is getting good cable clearance with my vanes. I don't care what position they are in relative to being up or down as long as the fletching clears the cables well. I try to check visibly to see if the arrow is kicking at all when shooting. I've not been able to detect any.

Jabwa
May 2nd, 2005, 11:56 AM
I don't think I'll try one. Don't need something else on my bow to get an argument started at a tournament! :D

badfish
May 2nd, 2005, 02:20 PM
I guess they work for a lot of people, and that's fine. If you follow the bow tuning forum as I do, however, you will realize there are a vast number of archers out there who are having one h____ of a time getting these things to work! :o

I am one who had a h--- of a time to get the TT to work. ( See: Someone Please Help! ) I am no engineer but I'm mechanically gifted I guess. I am new and could be wrong but my theory is this. The arrow must be able to flex , and this is why correct spine is important. This flex allows force to be transfered to the tip of the arrow. Now if there is contact by the rest with the shaft during this transfer of energy, it will in some way affect the direction in which that energy is transfered. Fletching clearance can easily be achieved by a standard rest. I believe that the real benifit to a drop away rest is that it allows the shaft of an arrow do what it is meant to do( flex and transfer energy), without restricting or changing that in any way. As for guidance, if your rest touches your fletching it will restrict its ability to properly guide the arrow. This is the job of your fletchings, and if they are doing thier job then there is no reason to help. All a rest should do in my opinion is consistantly determine the point at which this transfer of energy takes place. DOES THAT SOUND CRAZY OR AM I STARTING TO FIGURE THIS OUT? P.S. I was up late last night and my fletching clearance problem is cured. Thanks for all the help from everyone that replyed