Ny Crossbow Poll Closes 8/26/05

[DJH]

http://www.weloveoutdoors.com/default.asp?page=main

[BigBirdVA]

Do you believe use of crossbows should be allowed for big game hunting in New York State? [111 votes total]

No way, not ever (4) 4%
Only for those who are handicapped (16) 14%
Yes, but only during the extended Archery Season (10) 9%
Yes, but for a special Crossbow Only Season (8) 7%
Yes, as part of Archery Hunting (73) 66%

I bet I know who 2 of the 4 "no way" votes are ! LOL :D

Seems as more info on xbows gets out and people hear the truth the vote is turning more in favor of xbows. Wonder when every state will finally allow them?

[thesource]

BigBird - you might be very surprised.

DJH -

I see you spammed all your normal boards to rally the troops. But not hunting.net, I wonder why .... oh yea, that's right. They booted for spamming your crossbow propaganda.

Why you place such importance on an informal poll on a meaningless website escapes me. Why would you invade the turf of western NY sportsmen and stuff the ballot box with votes from non-residents and aliens, and then crow about some perceived "victory"?

It would seem that you're only fooling yourselves.

[DJH]

Why is the ACF interested in NY? Because we have ACF 176 members in NY that want to hunt with the crossbow, which is pretty remarkable for a state that doesn’t want anything to do with the crossbow. The crossbow issue isn't a state by state controversy, its a national controversy. The noble leadership of Pope and Young has made that very clear to us all.

The ACF will do all within its power, to stomp out ignorance, deceit, elitism and greed among the hunting community. We will endeavor to educate the educable and inform those with open minds. As far as those that continue the attack on the crossbow and those who would like to use it, I don’t really care. The trend has been set and they will be the losers. Their bigotry is already exposing them for what they really are. You go ahead and throw all of the accusations and daggers at me you wish, I can handle just find. When the dust has settled, it will be obvious to everyone who truly cares about our hunting who is really a real loser.

[thesource]

Wow, 176 crossbow members!

NY currently has 200,000 bowhunters. The ratio of crossbow to bow hunters does not seem particularly remarkable for a state that doesn't want anything to do with crossbows

I didn't ask why ACF was interested in NY. I realize that NY dollars spend as easily as MN dollars, and I'm guessing that is ACF's primary interest. I asked why you would stuff the ballot box (you can read that CHEAT) with non-residents and aliens over a meaningless poll.

[thesource]

Yea - but not very often, Doug.

Just enough to keep the traffic flowing. If you looked carefully, you may be able to notice a sort of pattern to the timing of my posts.

Also note - I have not been bashing crossbows.

[thesource]

BTW...why would 200,000 so called bowhunters really care if 176 xbow hunters hunted in the archery season?



That would seem to dismiss greed and swing the needle back to principle, now, wouldn't it?

[thesource]

Who cares what your guess is of how NY's 200,000 bowhunters might think? You live in Canada. I'm not sure I see any relevance whatsoever.

I've been defending BOWhunters. How you interpret any "insinuation" is up to you.

[Jim C]

Why is Source so interested in this board?

He said he wouldnt post here-but he does..

For a guys who hates xbows..he sure likes to talk about them..

BTW...why would 200,000 so called bowhunters really care if 176 xbow hunters hunted in the archery season?

So silly

greed is a rather pernicious that he can't help it. HE is a paid anti xbow instigator. He actually helps our side Doug. His arguments are so pathetic that undecided people reading his nonsense realize how lame the xbow haters' arguments are

[thesource]

I made almost $17.00 tonight alone! :mg:

[Jim C]

I made almost $17.00 tonight alone! :mg:


wage inflation at its worst :D

[twogun]

Why is the ACF interested in NY? Because we have ACF 176 members in NY that want to hunt with the crossbow, which is pretty remarkable for a state that doesn’t want anything to do with the crossbow. The crossbow issue isn't a state by state controversy, its a national controversy. The noble leadership of Pope and Young has made that very clear to us all.

The ACF will do all within its power, to stomp out ignorance, deceit, elitism and greed among the hunting community. We will endeavor to educate the educable and inform those with open minds. As far as those that continue the attack on the crossbow and those who would like to use it, I don’t really care. The trend has been set and they will be the losers. Their bigotry is already exposing them for what they really are. You go ahead and throw all of the accusations and daggers at me you wish, I can handle just find. When the dust has settled, it will be obvious to everyone who truly cares about our hunting who is really a real loser.


DJH,

You can thank Pope and Young, the state of West Virginia, and people like theSource for my upcomming membership to ACF.

[thesource]

DJH -

You can thank the vicious anti-hunting labels placed on bowhunters by you, ACF, and people like Twogun for my upcoming membership to NYB.

[twogun]

DJH -

You can thank the vicious anti-hunting labels placed on bowhunters by you, ACF, and people like Twogun for my upcoming membership to NYB.


Where my post was genuine this is just a cute attempt at a snappy retort.


"Vicious anti-hunting labels"


(thesource)
"I'm not against crossbowhunting. I just think it should not take place during regular bow season", which means lumping it in with gun seasons which means taking away 75% of the crossbow season. = anti-hunting


(PETA types)
"I'm not against hunting in general. I'm just against hunting during the breeding season when deer are vulnerable and need be left alone in order to procreate. Which would reduce hunting time in general by about 75%. = anti-hunting

[willie]

......... I asked why you would stuff the ballot box (you can read that CHEAT) with non-residents and aliens over a meaningless poll.

So... how did you vote...?

[Jim C]

So... how did you vote...?










AND HOW MANY times :p :p

[Jim C]

I think TheSource is mentally ill..

Why would someone really care how someone else chooses to participate in a recreational sport?

And then, post on a crossbow forum?

Put yourself in his shoes-and ask the type of person you would have to be to be like this..


a paid xbow basher? :D

[doctariAFC]

Hello All,

I guess I had better weigh in on this. I'm the guy that runs WeLoveOutdoors.com, Bringing Outdoors Enthusiasts Together. About our polling utilities, we track voters electronically to reduce the chances of folks voting more than once. So, you cannot skew the numbers, unless you have hundreds of different computers at your disposal.
Next, the crossbow issue has been a serious "hot potato" in New York. Yet, to give you all some history lessons, let's go back to 1950's. Archery season started then here in NY, and we had many vocal opponents saying that this season would "decimate the expanding deer herds." This season was limited to long bows and recurves. Then in the 1970's, compound bows were introduced, and many opponents bashed compound bows, saying they required less skill, would give hunters an unfair advantage, and would decimate the expanding deer herds. Today, the opponents of crossbows are using the SAME arguments that were employed against compound bows.
I am a writer, and outdoors-industry leader in NY. I do not put my opinions all too often out there. I would rather have other sportsmen and women GET INVOLVED constructively. I will carry the torch to the powers that be in NY State Government, but I cannot carry the torch without involvement, and constructive dialog first! This is what this Crossbow poll is all about. And, I thank all of you who are participating for doing just that.
Oh, and, yes, there is merit in pursuing dollars. Today's reality of Outdoors recreation and government is that money talks. Tradition, values, etc., are certainly very valid points, but, without economic impact (tax dollars, in particular), the anti's would be more apt to take away our beloved sports. So, anything that increases our clout with government (tax revenues and increased conservation funds,) I am more than happy to support.

Rich Davenport
Member - NYSOWA
Co-Founder of WeLoveOutdoors.com

[thesource]

Rich

You will carry those poll results to the NY state government even though you know that they were stacked by non-residents?

Seems unethical to me - Aren't you trying to represent NY sportsmen?

Why should non-residents and aliens decide what is right for NY sportsmen?

[doctariAFC]

Hi Source,

Yes, I have no troubles reporting polls, resident and non-resident, as hunting (and fishing) is enjoyed by both residents of NY and non-residents of NY. If we have interest in New York hunting regs from non-residents, there is the opportunity to bring hunters from out of state to New York.
I am intimitaely familiar with the trends of hunting and fishing (and many other outdoors-related sports) in New York (and all other 49 states) and participation and economic revenues of our sports have been on a serious decline over the past decade. BIG TIME! The observations are based on USF&W survey numbers, reported every 5 years. These reports do not paint a very pretty picture for the future (both in terms of economic impact, and in terms of youth participation.) Since I believe that good conservation efforts come from hunters and anglers being out in the field, observing wildlife and then getting involved to report observations to those who are supposed to safeguard our natural resources, and understanding the realities of where participation stands today, more folks involved (getting out there) means better things for our sports' future. This includes both residents and non-residents. Does that amply answer your question?

Rich

[thesource]

Not exactly.

The call went out from DJH to bow and crossbow forums nationwide (with or without your direct knowledge) and was answered by people who have no intention to come to NY for outdoor recreation. Rather, it was their crossbow connection, not any connection to NY, that motivated them to vote. Heck some are even bragging how often they voted.

You know the legitimacy of your poll has been comprised.

If you still report those poll numbers without clarifying that a significant percentage of votes came from non-resident crossbow advocates, that would seem unethical to me.

Is that really the image that you want for your website?

[doctariAFC]

And one more tidbit of info. The NYSDEC provided a topline report during a meeting between Outdoors Leaders and the NYS Assembly's new Hunting and Fishing Task Force, and, although DEC reported only Region 9 (Western New York) figures, on license sales (hunting, fishing and combo sportsmen), without a breakdown specific to each relative activity, the bottom line was that Region 9 posted a 40% DECLINE in sporting license sales comparing 2003/2004 sales to 2004/2005 sales. If that doesn't get your attention, nothing does.

Rich

[willie]

I'm still asking thesource.. Did you or did you not vote?

[willie]

doctariAFC,

Thanks for dropping by and suffering thesource.

Will you leave the results of the survey up awhile so we can all check it out?

BTW - You have a VERY nice site.

[doctariAFC]

Source,

Just to give you (and anyone else) the added assurances that the polls, when reported, contain ethical standards (which we are concerned about,) we track information every which way until Sunday, including where each vote (City and State) came from. As of right now, based on logs of IP addresses, 70% of our votes came from NY, with 30% coming from out of state. Although only 15% of NY Hunters are non-resident, I see an opportunity for this number to increase, and that is evidenced by the interest involved. Will we get folks that are simply for crossbows voting, no matter what State they are in, and their intentions whether they want to hunt in NY? Of course. We will also get anti's coming in from time to time to try to skew other polls to reflect their point of view, too. We do not believe in simply preaching to the choir. Once the results are tabulated, we we provide all these records in an analysis to the powers that be.

As far as I know, we are one of only a handful of sites that can do these things. Its about bringing outdoors enthusiasts together! Also, as another FYI, most of the folks that we poll (resident) belong to Conservation Clubs, that are a part of County Federations, which are members of either/ or both, the New York State Conservation Council and the Conservation Alliance of New York.

Rich

[willie]

Not exactly.

The call went out from DJH to bow and crossbow forums nationwide ..........

".....bow and crossbow forums..........'

Sounds like equal opportunity to me. Especially since vertical bowshooters/hunters outnumber crossbow shooter/hunters at least 20 to 1..

You would have thought it woudl have been a run away for the antis then.

UNLESS those bowhunters on "bow forums" see the big picture when all you can see is what is in it for thesource.

Face it thesource.. you are in a decided minority..

[doctariAFC]

doctariAFC,

Thanks for dropping by and suffering thesource.

Will you leave the results of the survey up awhile so we can all check it out?

BTW - You have a VERY nice site.

Yes, We will leave the results up for a while. We are right now tossing around the idea of leaving the poll up for another week, as to give more folks the chance to vote. But, that decision won't be made until tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks again. As an FYI, we are in the final phases of testing some new features to the site. Places to Go and Field Reports. We are currently working with NYSDEC biologists on the Field Reports project to get info, real-time, as to the quality of NY outdoor resources to the folks who need the info. Users can opt in or opt out of participating in this one, as to assure YOUR choice. All info collected gets reported annonymously, protecting privacy. The DEC currently suffers from a timely info challenge. We are on the verge of changing this, which should (I cannot control the DEC:) improve conservation efforts in NYS (and any other state that jumps on board!)

Rich

[doctariAFC]

Source is an anti hunter..

I am sure learning of that 40% drop has made him excited :thumbs_do

You certainly may be right. And the ultimate irony is that, as many anti-hunters would profess to "care about animals", they would rather see mass starvation than proper management of the herds, flocks and so forth. Its like talking out of both sides of their mouths. They claim to care about the environment, yet have no clue as to the realities of effective, solid conservation. The goals of conservation is to make certain that our children, their children and their children (and so on) have the opportunity to enjoy our Natural Heritage and Beauty. Yet, without hunters and anglers and trail riders, et al in the field, acting as the watchdogs for the ecosystems, we would have no deer, bear, turkey, fish, etc., for future generations to enjoy. I'm not even touching on the natural green spaces and the like. Heck, what about our National Symbol? Does anyone believe that we would see the bald eagle today if these anti's get their way? The answer is absolutely NOT. Except maybe in zoos, that is. The anti's are against man being outdoors and doing their part to protect the environment, yet they're usually the first ones to stand up and applaud a new Wal-Mart or Office complex or Stadium and parking lot replacing a once-thriving meadow or forest. Why is that?

Rich

[DJH]

DoctrarACF – What refreshing responses you have shared with us. Thank you for wading into the murky waters of the crossbow to share them with us. It is heartening to know that there is a bit of sane, open mindedness alive and well in NY. Our ACF troops are continuing the fight in your fair state and as you know they are getting closer to making it happen each year. Those fine folks will not relent until the battle has been one. I, for one, will be one of the first out-of-staters over the border when the crossbow is legalized. I have a hand full of good friends that I hunt with each year in other parts of the country that have promised to show me the finest of what New York has to offer in whitetail hunting. You see I am confined to hunting with a vertical bow in my own state (a fact that we hope to change soon) so when I spend the money to hunt out of state, it has to be a state that allows crossbow hunting. My trips this year have taken or will take me to Canada, Alabama, Texas and Ohio. I believe that New York will be on my list within a matter of years.

Keep up the good work, Doc. Again, your refreshing and intelligent thoughts are greatly appreciated by me and most of the folks on this site. If we are to preserve our hunting heritage, we must rise above discriminating against our brothers because of the weapons, methods, or species they hunt. You obviously have a firm grasp on that reality. I salute you and offer my assistance if I can ever be of assistance to your mission.

[doctariAFC]

DoctrarACF – What refreshing responses you have shared with us. Thank you for wading into the murky waters of the crossbow to share them with us. It is heartening to know that there is a bit of sane, open mindedness alive and well in NY. Our ACF troops are continuing the fight in your fair state and as you know they are getting closer to making it happen each year. Those fine folks will not relent until the battle has been one. I, for one, will be one of the first out-of-staters over the border when the crossbow is legalized. I have a hand full of good friends that I hunt with each year in other parts of the country that have promised to show me the finest of what New York has to offer in whitetail hunting. You see I am confined to hunting with a vertical bow in my own state (a fact that we hope to change soon) so when I spend the money to hunt out of state, it has to be a state that allows crossbow hunting. My trips this year have taken or will take me to Canada, Alabama, Texas and Ohio. I believe that New York will be on my list within a matter of years.

Keep up the good work, Doc. Again, your refreshing and intelligent thoughts are greatly appreciated by me and most of the folks on this site. If we are to preserve our hunting heritage, we must rise above discriminating against our brothers because of the weapons, methods, or species they hunt. You obviously have a firm grasp on that reality. I salute you and offer my assistance if I can ever be of assistance to your mission.

Thanks Dan, for the wonderful comments, and starting this post on this site. Although I am just one man, I have taken it upon myself to help our sports, as these sports have given me immeasurable and invaluable experiences and knowledge through the years, and this is my way of giving back. I will certainly take you up on your offer of assistance, and I offer my assistance to you, as well. The only way we can improve our sports is to work together, not separately in the various factions we outdoors-folk are notoriously famous for. As willie's quote says so well, "we have met the enemy, and it is ourselves..." This is only one (but a very big reason) why I started this venture, WeLoveOutdoors.com. Our mission is "Bringing Outdoors Enthusiasts Together" and we certainly do not discrimiate. After all, the old saying, "United we stand, divided we fall" applies quite well to our heritage. As a friend of mine, NYS Assemblyman (retired) Dick Smith stated some months back, "we are our own worst enemies, and we need to organize and come together" to protect our heritage. I take that observation to heart, and I hope to do something about this condition, to fight the PETAs and the TeachKind.orgs of the world. My email address is simply, rich@weloveoutdoors.com. Contact me whenever you have the time. The more people we can connect and get involved with this very important movement, the better we can protect our sport, and our natural world.

Again, I sincerely thank you

Rich

[X Bow T]

:beer: Cheers to Rich

I'd have another out of state X bow hunting option, and one more reason to visit that great Finger lake country. :D

Bustin' a grape eatin' deer, now thats gotta be good. :shade:

[DJH]

Do you believe use of crossbows should be allowed for big game hunting in New York State? This poll is now closed. You may still view the results. [329 votes total]


No way, not ever (55) 17%
Only for those who are handicapped (89) 27%
Yes, but only during the extended Archery Season (10) 3%
Yes, but for a special Crossbow Only Season (23) 7%
Yes, as part of Archery Hunting (152) 46%


Thank You All
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WeLoveOutdoors.com would like to thank all of those who participated in our poll regarding whether crossbows should be allowed in NYS. As you may have seen, we simply didn't ask a yes or no question, as this question is not simply answered by a yes or no response.

The poll is now closed, but, at some point we may bring this topic back, to add to existing results, if we receive enough response to do just that.

We believe that all hunters should have a voice concerning hunting issues, and your participation has certainly helped voice concerns and opinions over this very important subject.

Results will be viewable for the next few days. We will complete an analysis of this poll, and perform the breakdowns in results, which will appear as an article on the site.

Again, we thank all of you for coming together in this forum and expressing your beliefs and positions.

Rich Davenport
WeLoveOUtdoors.com

[thesource]

Willie -

I LIVE in NY. Can't I vote in a NY poll? What business do you have voting in it? You should keep your nose out of NY business.

I see you've been out spreading your manure again today. On KYhunting, you stated DJH posted to AT for all bowhunters to see. Nicely done, not quite a lie, but worded so that the uninitiated would believe he posted in the main forum, not hidden in the crossbow forum so that the message was directed to xbowers.

Slick Willie II?

[willie]

If DJH wanted ONLY crossbwers to vote he would have PMed everyone on the Excalibur site ONLY.

Are you really this dense or did you stay at a Motel 6 last night?

[thesource]

I think you give DJH too much credit.

Another personal attack - you should seek counseling.

[willie]

Truth hurt?

[thesource]

I expected something much more clever than that.

Feeling under the weather tonight, Slick Willie?

What's your feelling on the significance of the poll now that a majority of respondents didn't want xbow in bowseason?

I wonder if "Rich" will carry that result to the state house as quickly as he was planning to when xbows were leading.

[Jim C]

I think you give DJH too much credit.

Another personal attack - you should seek counseling.

you should get some help concerning your constant worrying about what other hunters choose to use in a recreational activity.

Maybe you should learn how to shoot a bow as well :wink:

[doctariAFC]

Now, now, now. We are all hunters here and isn't the ultimate goal of hunters to strengthen and protect our sports? Just a thought.

As an FYI to anyone who is interested, and I am receiving some requests, we can turn the NY Crossbow poll back on and continue the voting for another couple weeks, if so desired. After all, this poll is FOR ALL HUNTERS (resident of NY and non-resident of NY) and we certainly would not want anyone to feel like they were excluded. We can do so, provided we receive enough responses to do so. But I need this to happen before 9/1!

So.... to get the poll re-activated, simply send an email to me, at rich@weloveoutdoors.com, with the subject matter - Request to have NY Crossbow Poll returned. If I receive enough emails (like over 50+) before 9/1, I will re-activate the poll for another 2 weeks. We will do this, even though the poll has run for 60 days, to give everyone the chance to vote. The IP tracking is still enabled, so if you think you will get to vote a second time, don't hold your breath, the software will not allow it!

As an FYI, I have already received 10 emails to continue this poll for a little while longer. But I need more requests to do so. We cover more than just hunting, and our next poll is geared for horseback riding and the trails in NY. We can push this one back, but once this one is up and running, the Crossbow poll will become an archive.

Much Thanks

Rich Davenport
WeLoveOutdoors.com

[doctariAFC]

One interesting take on the NY Crossbow poll is this:

17% of all those polled are against crossbows
83% of all those polled are for the use of crossbows in some form or another

Of the 83% who are for the use of crossbows (and follow me cause this gets tricky)
32% favor crossbows for handicapped hunters only
68% favor crossbow use for all, either during a special season, during NY extended season, or through regular archery season

Of those who favor crossbow use by all, 82% would prefer to see crossbow use during NY archery season.

Preliminary numbers indicate @ 67% of those who voted are NY residents, 33% non-residents. Only NY residents voted for crossbow during extended season. The balance of the votes are following similar trends, regardless of state of residence.

Rich

[doctariAFC]

I expected something much more clever than that.

Feeling under the weather tonight, Slick Willie?

What's your feelling on the significance of the poll now that a majority of respondents didn't want xbow in bowseason?

I wonder if "Rich" will carry that result to the state house as quickly as he was planning to when xbows were leading.

Hey source. I carry the results to the powers that be no matter what the outcome. It is the voice of the Sportsman that I carry, not mine. I am an advocate for all sportsmen and women, not my own personal agendas. In order to be an effective advocate, I need sportsmen and women to participate, not sit on their hands, griping and whining. I need all to participate.
That being said, it is reality that some positions will make many happy, and tick others off. I certainly understand and sympathize with those who fall into the minority, but if you do not get involved, then you have no rights to gripe. Get involved, get informed, get active, constructively, please.
I noticed you said you couldn't vote in the poll. It has been up for 60 days. If you haven't voted, shame on you. If the poll wouldn't allow the vote, despite it being active, then that is a firewall issue on your end. We track IP addresses to assure fair and balanced polls. Firewalls prevent IP address transmissions. In that case, I do apologize, but you can deactivate your firewall, vote, then re-activate the firewall again.

Rich

[doctariAFC]

And, to further inform all those who may have their doubts about my sincerity regarding my efforts FOR sportsmen and women, I would refer you all to a Buffalo News article, dated August 16, 2005, which covered the newly formed NYS Assembly Task Force on Hunting and Fishing. A meeting was held in Blasdell, NY, where I, along with 20+ other Outdoors Leaders met with 6 NYS Assemblymen. In this article, I was the leader that was primarily quoted, and this was in relation to the importance of youth involvement. To request a copy of this article, please send me an email at rich@weloveoutdoors.com

Much thanks

Rich

[thesource]

As an FYI to anyone who is interested, and I am receiving some requests, we can turn the NY Crossbow poll back on and continue the voting for another couple weeks, if so desired. After all, this poll is FOR ALL HUNTERS (resident of NY and non-resident of NY) and we certainly would not want anyone to feel like they were excluded. We can do so, provided we receive enough responses to do so. But I need this to happen before 9/1!



In other words, we can keep the poll open until we get the results that we want.

What a joke.

[Jim C]

In other words, we can keep the poll open until we get the results that we want.

What a joke.


the joke is people who worry what sort of bows other hunters choose to use in recreational hunting activity.

fact is source, you are going to lose on this issue sooner or later. The only issue is what the winners do to you

[Jim C]

I think Source is throwing a hissy fit because the poll didnt go his way..

I still want to know why he cares..

What possible difference can it make to him if someone else carries an Horton or a Hoyt?

Is he ever gonna answer this question? :zip:


the source has pretty much been relegated to a post and bugger out drive by sniper. His mindless drivel doesn't score any points over here. He is better off spewing his venom and bigotry to people who actually believe a 300 FPS crossbow shoots at almost twice the speed as 300 FPS compounds or that your grandma can pick up my excalibur and give Dave Cousins or Reo and whippin at vegas

[doctariAFC]

In other words, we can keep the poll open until we get the results that we want.

What a joke.

Hey Source,

So, I extend to those bowhunters who are anti-crossbow an opportunity to get their voices heard and on record by stating that if I receive enough requests to re-activate the poll, to do so to give more hunters the chance to voice their opinions, and I am the bad guy? Geez, that's a pretty warped perspective, and it smacks of some serious sour grapes.

The poll has run, for 60-days, and the votes are in. The sentiments are crystal clear. In the interests of fairness, I offered to extend the poll for another 2 weeks to 30 days. What's wrong? If you have the confidence in the sentiments being ant-crossbow, then you should be jumping for joy, and campaigning everyone you know to lobby me to re-activate the poll, and then, once I announce this has happened, you would have all your cronies vote against the crossbow. But, since you are all mouth and zero action, opting to whine instead of getting involved in a constructive, useful manner, you choose to attempt to discredit a very well-run, tightly controlled poll.

So, answer this question. What type of bow do you hunt with? I'm not talking brand. Just the type of bow. Compound? Recurve? Longbow? Do you shoot with a release or with your fingers? Do you use no sights, pin sights, fiber optic sights? DO you use cedar shaft arrows? Aluminum shaft, carbon, graphite? WHat broadhead do you hunt with?

Let'[s see some courage, source, and answer some simple questions. However, be advised that is you shoot with a compound bow, using a release, tricked out with fiber optic sites (or any sites for that matter) and carbon arrows, and you start whining about crossbows spoiling tradition, or demanding less skill, or it gives hunters and unfair advantage, you're a hypocrit. And no one likes a hypocrit. Nor does a hypocrit have any credibility. Even if you use a longbow or recurve, what is it made of? I know many "traditional archers" who use the new composite material recurves, and, even though they shoot with their fingers, they fling carbon arrows, and generate speeds approaching 250 fps. That's a far cry from a hickory stick strung with cat gut. So, by your beliefs, the only folks who are ordained to capitalize on technological advancements are those that agree with you, and all others are somehow cheaters, or whatever.

But, the opinions of those who chose to PARTICIPATE prove different. And you cannot even motivate yourself to get your ranks to get the poll re-activated. Piss poor, source. Low3est of the low.

Rich

[thesource]

Rich

Ahh, there we are. I knew there was a closet crossbower waiting to come out somewhere in there. I never said you were the bad guy, I said your poll is a joke.

I have much better things to do than organize crossbow opponents to vote in a meaningless poll on a meaningless website. I believe it is unethical to stack a poll, regardless of which side of this (or any)debate you are on. I'll continue to focus my personal energy at the state level, thank you very much.

Listen, if you had spent anytime on AT prior to pumping your website and its lame poll, you'd already have all your answers about what I shoot and where I stand.

Do a search.

[doctariAFC]

Rich

Ahh, there we are. I knew there was a closet crossbower waiting to come out somewhere in there. I never said you were the bad guy, I said your poll is a joke.

I have much better things to do than organize crossbow opponents to vote in a meaningless poll on a meaningless website. I believe it is unethical to stack a poll, regardless of which side of this (or any)debate you are on. I'll continue to focus my personal energy at the state level, thank you very much.

Listen, if you had spent anytime on AT prior to pumping your website and its lame poll, you'd already have all your answers about what I shoot and where I stand.

Do a search.

I do know the answers, source. And I also know that whatever happens in NY regarding crossbows will not affect me personally. I would never give up my Oneida Eagle AeroForce X-80 for anything. However, it comes down to choice. And, when it comes to hunting, I am pro-choice for any implement that is safe and handled responsibly.

Besides, I received a few requests FROM New York Bowhunters to continue the poll. Actually, to be more accurate, I was questioned why the poll was taken down so soon. When I informed them that the poll was up for 60-days, they understood that it wasn't simply taken down in a hurried fashion. So, in the interests of fairness, I opened the option up to people. If there was enough interest I would gladly continue the poll, to see if more NO Way votes would be tallied, not the other way around!

Regardless. I saw in another post that you mentioned something to the affect that you couldn't vote in the NY poll? It appeared to me that you may have either not participated in the poll, and then complained when the poll closed. Did I misunderstand you? Did you get your opinion on the record or no?

And, as for the "meaningless website" comment. I'm sure the NYSCC, the CANY, the ECFSC and CCFSC would be interested to know that you view them as meaningless, too. These stand for New York State Conservation Council, Conservation Alliance of NY, Erie County Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs, Chautauqua County Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. We provide exposure through our services for them, and provide site solutions to local clubs who are very active members in County Federations and the State-level organizations. I'm sure NYSOWA would like to hear that, too. How about the NYSSA?

But, hey, that's ok. I'm here to educate, not bicker. Your opinions and passion are certainly valued, and I appreciate the fervor for which you stand. Just be very careful Source. I also am working with the NYS Assembly and the NYS DEC. Why? Because they know what I deliver is an end product that is reliable, credible and accommodates inclusive consensus, not a specific one-sided, very exclusive agenda.

Again, I thank you kindly for your participation, if you did participate (I collect IP addresses, not names to go along with those numbers), and look forward to your valuable input in future opinion polls. NYS Hunters and anglers also would like to thank you for your involvement.

Rich Davenport
WeLoveOutdoors.com

[thesource]

And, when it comes to hunting, I am pro-choice for any implement that is safe and handled responsibly.


Any Implement? In Bowseason? Including the stupid MZ in the middle of Archery season proposal last year?

I worked my tail off organizing oppposition to that. Your precious NYSCC waffled like crazy while that fight was raging.

My ONLY complaint about your poll was that outsiders were stuffing the ballot box. When it turned out they were doing so with your blessing, I realized you have an agenda.

Whatever, dude. See you at the state house.

[doctariAFC]

Any Implement? In Bowseason? Including the stupid MZ in the middle of Archery season proposal last year?

I worked my tail off organizing oppposition to that. Your precious NYSCC waffled like crazy while that fight was raging.

My ONLY complaint about your poll was that outsiders were stuffing the ballot box. When it turned out they were doing so with your blessing, I realized you have an agenda.

Whatever, dude. See you at the state house.

Actually, the muzzies during early archery season in the Southern Zone was about as dumb as it comes! I was dead-set against that one. Not due to what some folks said (gunshots would screw up the deer hunting), rather, it was a safety concern. The DEC, during their public meeting in Blasdell said flat out that the anti gun sentiments was the biggest thing hurting hunting in NY, and then they endorse use of essentially a high-powered rifle when foliage is still on the trees, hampering line of sight. I'm of the school that safe shooting involves knowing your target AND what's behind it.

And, yes, I do have an agenda. To get people involved. ALL HUNTERS, ANGLERS, and other Outdoors Enthusiasts. We sit on our hands and only act when its too late. We now have a good dialog going on. We can find the right balance.

Am I for crossbows in NY? Yes I am. Should they be allowed during early archery season? I do not know. This is where "the many" come in. I would love to see them allowed during regular season and extended archery/ black powder. What is needed is a gauge of ALL hunters as to when the crossbow should be allowed. This includes non-residents, as well as residents. Not only do I want to grow our sports, but I would love to see a serious increase in non-resident spending in NYS. We will need it after they eliminated the opner on Monday, moving it to a Saturday. If you want to know the economic impact of this move, let me know. You will then see where I am coming from. The realities of politics today tell us money talks. We are certainly (sportsmen) not a majority of folks. Tradition only goes so far, but doesn't ever pay a bill. Sad, but true. Our clout comes from the $2.1 Billion annual economic impact Hunting and fishing delivers to NYS coffers.
If the crossbow will get more women and younger hunters in the woods, open it up. If it will draw the archers who can no longer draw a bow, open it up. Choices do not affect your ability to hunt, and with what type of implement. Lack of choices hurts all.
Which brings us to the next point. Many bowhunters do not want crossbows because of the lack of skill, or lack of time a hunter needs to invest in the device to gain proficiency. A good friend of mine said "we would have more 'joeys' in the woods, screwing up the hunt". Kinda sounded like he wants the woods as HIS WOODS. Like during archery season the deer are HIS DEER. Hey, bring on the joeys. They'll push that big buck right to me every time. And they tend to spend more money, too.

Rich

[thesource]

If you want to craft a bill that allows crossbows for physically challenged, women, children under the age of 16, and men over the age of 55, in any season, then I will join you.

Crossbows for any and all, in any season but early archery .... I've got your back.

Some division of the early season to become part crossbow season and part bow season, I'm not totally opposed.

But ..... When the physically able demand to use crossbows during bowseason, its too much.

[doctariAFC]

If you want to craft a bill that allows crossbows for physically challenged, women, children under the age of 16, and men over the age of 55, in any season, then I will join you.

Crossbows for any and all, in any season but early archery .... I've got your back.

Some division of the early season to become part crossbow season and part bow season, I'm not totally opposed.

But ..... When the physically able demand to use crossbows during bowseason, its too much.

Source.... We are on the same page. RIGHT ON! I, too, believe that we CAN do the right things to bring the crossbow in, to allow youth and women and eldery to hunt with the crossbow. We can also preserve the archery season. This is exactly what the dialog is all about.

Thanks much...

Rich

[doctariAFC]

Ok, folks. Let's start the dialog on this one for NYS. Crossbows are another choice, but we do realize that concerns regarding their use during regualr bow season would cause problems. Here is a recommended solution to provide the choice, get youth and women involved, and give the handicapped more opportunity:

1 - Allow Use of Crossbows during REGULAR SEASON and EXTENDED ARCHERY/ BLACK POWDER SEASON in NYS

2 - REQUIRE Crossbow hunters to purchase the Bowhunting Stamp AND a new Crossbow Stamp, no additional deer tags would come with the crossbow stamp purchase.

3 - Allow CROSSBOW USE during the LAST 7 DAYS of early archery season, leading up to REGULAR SEASON - You may also use vertical bows during this time, too, let's not eliminate that one, like they wanted to do with the early muzzie week.

4 - Chage the Opening Day of Early Archery season wording from 1st Saturday AFTER Columbus Day to 1st Saturday BEFORE Columbus Day, as to preserve time in the woods for early archery season.

Rationale for the last 7 days leading up to REGULAR SEASON is as follows:
1 - Warmer weather will draw more participation
2 - Last week leading up to REGULAR SEASON will draw more non-resident hunters, and potentially hold them through opening weekend in NYS, capturing more dollars
3 - Preserves the vast majority of bow season as it is, while allowing kids, women, eldery, disabled, and even a few "lazy pukes" to have an additional 7 days to hunt, and spend money
4 - Potentially increase deer harvest, more effectively managing deer herds, without having the danger of firearms being discharged when foliage is still on the trees
5 - Changing the wording of when the archery season starts will preserve time in the woods for archers. Although this year, opening day happens to fall on the 15th (traditional opener before the Saturday changes), the potential to lose even more days exists when Columbus Day falls on a later date, which happens due to calendar cycles and leap year.


I do understand that this last 7 days is prime rut time, and many bowhunters are already pretty upset over the Saturday Opener effectively taking away one of the best weekends in archery season. I look at the economics of this Saturday opener move and shake my head. When we opened on Monday, NY had 2 opening days - Monday and the 1st Saturday. According to DEC surveys, 78% of hunters participated on opening Monday, 72% on the 1st Sat. That's 2 opening days in my book. Now, we will have 80% participation on the opening Saturday, but how do we capture the $$ that opening Monday represented. I did some math on this (which was ignored by the DEC) and the loss to our economy could be as high as $29 Million. Many family-run diners, bed & breakfasts, and even the State Parks cabin rentals will bear the brunt of this loss. Could be even higher. Only time will tell.

Thoughts? I need your input.

Rich

[willie]

Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me..

I wish you good luck in getting it..

[thesource]

Rich

Totally reasonable.

I would offer only slight changes.

1. Physically challenged allowed the use of crossbows throughout all seasons.

2. Ages 16 and under, 55 and older, and women allowed crossbow during early archery as well as proposed crossbow seasons.

3. Require Crossbow hunters to purchase the Bowhunting Stamp (OR a muzzleloader stamp) AND a new Crossbow Stamp, no additional deer tags would come with the crossbow stamp purchase.

My rationale is that the late Archery/MZ season is either/or, Crossbows should be allowed either/or plus the additional fee for crossbow. This allows both MZ/crossbow hunters or archery/crossbow hunters (the sellouts, oops couldn't help myself) to access both their existing season and still use a crossbow during the early crossbow without paying for a tag they otherwise would not use.


I am ambivalent about the need to open archery earlier, but would take it if we could get it. The first 2 weeks of October would be another great timeframe for a shared crossbow/bow season, but I doubt a split season (open/close for bowseason/open for a week) would appeal to many crossbowers. I'm not crazy about an ocean of crossbow toting newbies in the woods during the rut, but the final week before gun is, admittedly, fair.

With regards to your reasoning, I only disagree with number 4. Bows and crossbows do not control the herd to any significant degree. Season length and bag limits do that, and gun season does the heavy lifting. As the last 2 years have proven in NY, it can be very effective.

All in all, I could support that, and it sounds good. Now let's see if Jim, Doug, or others weighs in to tell me why its all wrong, why crossbows should supplant bows in archery season, and how I will need to beg for the right to hunt in October with a vertical bow.

[Jim C]

crossbows have the exact same rate of harvest as compound bows. THey should be treated exactly the same

you have yet to tell us a rational reason to practice archery apartheid.

You labour under the delusions that treating xbows the same as compound bows somehow interferes with your rights as a compound hunter-the begging part for example

[thesource]

I temporarily labored under the delusion that there might be some reasonable compromise available out there.

Thanks for setting me straight, Jim.

[Jim C]

I temporarily labored under the delusion that there might be some reasonable compromise available out there.

Thanks for setting me straight, Jim.


why should we be treated differently than compound bows? Justify archery apartheid. Its like the blacks in south africa being told they get half the rights of whites and they should compromise on that

there is NOTHING REASONABLE with people like you telling us we should be treated differently than you are

[Jim C]

I see no reason for xbows not to be available to anyone who wants to use one..

Why does Source want to restrict it? Just what is he afraid of?

Xbows in archery seasons are right next to him-in ONT-have been for 30yrs-and there is no detrimental affect..


you ought to see some of the moronic whining about xbows on the main thread. The source is the source of worthless nonsense

[Jim C]

I'll have to go look..

Source is obsessed with xbows in archery seasons! I can only imagine his whining..

But, he's gonna whine some more-and soon. Xbows will be part of NY archery seasons.. :thumbs_up


do we even know what state or country the source lives in?

[patriotvft]

jim c

since "the source" ya right, is afraid of losing deer to someone with a crossbow, i think the i have a solution to his problem. mooooooooooooooooooooooove! he can always pack up his gear and hunt somewhere else if he has that big of a problem with it. sounds simple to me, what do you think? i shoot a compound and dont have the slightest problem sharing the woods and any deer with someone shooting a xbow.

[Jim C]

jim c

since "the source" ya right, is afraid of losing deer to someone with a crossbow, i think the i have a solution to his problem. mooooooooooooooooooooooove! he can always pack up his gear and hunt somewhere else if he has that big of a problem with it. sounds simple to me, what do you think? i shoot a compound and dont have the slightest problem sharing the woods and any deer with someone shooting a xbow.


most people who are confident and skilled hunters are like you. The source thinks buying a crossbow teaches you everything there is to know about bowhunting :D

[patriotvft]

the way i look at it is that is not the weapon that you are holding that makes the hunt, it is literally everything else but the weapon, preparation, scouting, practice, ... and to me most of all it is the people you share the hunt with that make it a truly enjoyable experience. i could care less about what you are holding in your hands whether it be a compound bow, crossbow or a salami sandwich. a few hours spent with friends doing what you enjoy is what hunting is all about.

[Jim C]

excellent post :thumbs_up

[doctariAFC]

why should we be treated differently than compound bows? Justify archery apartheid. Its like the blacks in south africa being told they get half the rights of whites and they should compromise on that

there is NOTHING REASONABLE with people like you telling us we should be treated differently than you are

Gentlemen,
The Art of Compromise is critical to gaininng the crossbow in NY as another legal implement. The realities are simply that NY Bowhunters are a failry powerful group. Their policy, as we all know, is 100% against crossbows, during ANY SEASON, not just archery season. That being said, it is apparent that hunters do favor the crossbow over not favoring the crossbow. However, the rub comes into exactly how liberal or restrictive the law would be, especially regarding early archery season.
New York is what I like to term a "precedent" State. What we need is data that is specific to New York on the crossbow, which we will never have the chance to compile if we do not understand that compromise is the only way to get anything done. This, then, in the process, starts us all down the road of "Bringing Outdoors Enthusiasts Together."
While we gripe and whine, and do not compromise, our real enemies, PETA and the ASPCA, march in lockstep, and get their disinformation to our youth, while we sit there and fight amongst ourselves. Case in point, here is something Fred Neff, VP of NYSCC just sent onto me. More lunacy from the left. http://www.fishinghurts.com/f-salmon.asp?c=1511

Rich

[Jim C]

disabled bowhunters in NY ought to sue NY and the anti xbow groups under the Americans with disability act. 15 or 20 lawsuits-which cost about 100.000 minimum to defend would put an end to this bigoted nonsense ASAP

[doctariAFC]

disabled bowhunters in NY ought to sue NY and the anti xbow groups under the Americans with disability act. 15 or 20 lawsuits-which cost about 100.000 minimum to defend would put an end to this bigoted nonsense ASAP
But, would that be productive?

[Jim C]

sure-bigotry needs to be stomped out by whatever means available. I got my law and masters (Labor relations etc) at Cornell and bowhunted upstate NY for 3 years so I know the attitudes of the greedy anti xbow types. I have seen the lies that the NYBOA or whatever it is called spews and its reliance on the "marlow report" which is one of the most lie filled documents I have ever seen. these people aren't going to compromise. Its time to get the courts and others involved

[doctariAFC]

sure-bigotry needs to be stomped out by whatever means available. I got my law and masters (Labor relations etc) at Cornell and bowhunted upstate NY for 3 years so I know the attitudes of the greedy anti xbow types. I have seen the lies that the NYBOA or whatever it is called spews and its reliance on the "marlow report" which is one of the most lie filled documents I have ever seen. these people aren't going to compromise. Its time to get the courts and others involved

I disagree. For starters, the disabled in NY do have the ability to use a "modified" crossbow, as Al Botarri pointed out in a commentary piece he did for NY Outdoor News. Whether you have to be a quadrapalegic to get this permit is up for debate, but laws do exist that permit some handicapped folk to use the crossbow, so I do not think a legal struggle will bear fruit. Quite the opposite, it will cost more money than pursing this avenue is worth. I would again recommend that dialog, constructive dialog, be continued to get everyone to a point where a compromise is possible. The crossbow poll we ran illustrates that the majority of hunters favor use of crossbows. Again, the timing of use of these devices is what is at the heart of the debate, not necessarily the crossbow itself.
If we can come to a workable compromise, I do believe we can garner the support. Then we can collect data, and get a better understanding of what the crossbow would indeed do in NY. Many of us already know the answers, but, without data, we cannot back up the claims.
I will take part of something than all of nothing anyday of the week.

Rich

[patriotvft]

as sad as sounds, some people forget that the deer are not there's until they've harvested them and who is anyone to tell another person how to harvest their deer. they should look at the bigger picture and or bigger problem, which is a government and public that wishes to ban hunting altogether, but this all stems from their favorite words being me and mine instead of yes, together, share and ours. good luck down there,thank god we dont have that problem here in ontario.

[thesource]

do we even know what state or country the source lives in?

You would think you could have figured that out on your own by now, what with that fancy Ivy League education.

[thesource]

why should we be treated differently than compound bows? Justify archery apartheid. Its like the blacks in south africa being told they get half the rights of whites and they should compromise on that

there is NOTHING REASONABLE with people like you telling us we should be treated differently than you are


Why should everything get treated the same when the weapons are different? Justify your "archery" communism.


Better dead than red.

[doctariAFC]

as sad as sounds, some people forget that the deer are not there's until they've harvested them and who is anyone to tell another person how to harvest their deer. they should look at the bigger picture and or bigger problem, which is a government and public that wishes to ban hunting altogether, but this all stems from their favorite words being me and mine instead of yes, together, share and ours. good luck down there,thank god we dont have that problem here in ontario.
This is very true, and we should all be ashamed of ourselves in many regards. Yet, discourse begets action, which sometimes gets good results, or at least I'd like to delude myself into thinking that. PETA and their ilk continues their assaults, without any of the bickering amongst their ranks being visible. Sportsmen and women, on the other hand, enjoy the bickering, I guess.
Anyhow, let's work to come up with the best solution for NY crossbows. We are reaching a consensus that crossbows can be used. Now we must work to meet the specifics of the objections so that we can all improve the choices to NY Hunting, which will result in more hunters and more participation. This benefits all of us, especially wildlife and the environment. More eyes and ears out in the woods equals better conservation efforts for future generations to enjoy our natural beauty and our heritage (hunting heritage)

[Jim C]

You would think you could have figured that out on your own by now, what with that fancy Ivy League education.

sorry skippy, I am used to real men with real profiles rather than cowards hiding behind a blank facade. What's wrong, are you afraid to come out and put it in your profile?

communism is clearly a term you are unlearned in and something you labor to understand. Communism involves government taking the private property of one group and distributing it among others. treating two bows that have the same harvest rate the same is hardly taking something from you and giving it to me unless you operate under the hallucination that all the deer belong to you and your ilk and allowing me the chance to shoot one in the same public or private woods I have access to as you do is somehow taking from you.

[patriotvft]

here he goes again with that "me" and "mine" attitude except now he has expanded to his vocabulary and added "you", predictably of course. thats usually what happens when you know you are wrong, point your finger at the other party involved like little kids because you know you're just simply selfish. he cant grasp the concept of "us" or "we". you guys better get on the same page and quick because we all know what happens to a team that plays as individuals and not as a team. just look at the ny rangers (sorry couldnt resist that one, i wont mention the isles cause mike peca is actually a good friend, even thought he is an oiler now). people like him will reck it for everyone and probably prefer it that way and then blame it on everyone else and say i told you so, this wouldnt have happened if they didnt allow xbows.

[patriotvft]

maybe xbow hunters should only be allowed on the back of the bus as well and maybe his real name is grand wizard. his organization sounds like the KKK of the hunting world.

[thesource]

maybe xbow hunters should only be allowed on the back of the bus as well and maybe his real name is grand wizard. his organization sounds like the KKK of the hunting world.

LMAO -

Yea, my "organization" would say terrible stuff like ...

"No Sir, that's the Ladies' room. You can't go in there."
"No sir. It says here that your a 37 yr old man from Canada - we really can't give you the child's rate."

And

"Only bows should be used in bow season."

Its simple stuff that everybody really knows, deep down. Do the right thing.

[patriotvft]

sorry sir, its called ARCHERY SEASON sir, not bow season sir. i know we will have years of hunting here, pretty soon you wont sir and if you look at my profile sir you'll see that i am a custodian which means i know the difference between the mens and ladies room sir. however you maybe get confused when you look down because all you are ever gonna see is your tail tucked nice and tightly between your legs. oh ya i forgot, i didnt say you were impolite, just selfish, sir.

[thesource]

sorry sir, its called ARCHERY SEASON sir, not bow season sir.

Hate to quibble, but that's not universally true. There's numerous states where it is BOW season. Of course, being from Canada, you may not be aware of that. Of course, being from Canada, much of this is truly none of your business. You should work on legalizing xbows in the all but 4 Canadian provinces that currently disallow crossbows before you worry about America. Sweep your own steps first, sir.

And even if you wish to call it Archery season (or is it ARCHERY SEASON, you big tough guy) remember that historically, those who shoot bows are archers. Those who shoot crossbows are arbalists, or crossbowmen. They didn't mix it up back then, and we shouldn't either.

[patriotvft]

as for your hate to quibble remark, thats pretty much all you have done in any of your posts in any of the forums. my immediate step, ontario, has been swept and believe me i definitely dont care about your business. just out of curiousity what do they call it your state bow or archery season. as for me being a tough guy, at least i am not hiding behind a blank profile. come on fill it in, even though we all know you never will, tough guy. at least not honestly.

[twogun]

Why should everything get treated the same when the weapons are different?

Now there's a good question about compounds and real bows.

[Doc Holliday]

as for your hate to quibble remark, thats pretty much all you have done in any of your posts in any of the forums. my immediate step, ontario, has been swept and believe me i definitely dont care about your business. just out of curiousity what do they call it your state bow or archery season. as for me being a tough guy, at least i am not hiding behind a blank profile. come on fill it in, even though we all know you never will, tough guy. at least not honestly.


You know, people that come to these sites JUST to argue with a blank profile should be put on everyones ignore list. I believe JimC used the term coward. I would not have been as tactful as he. :D

In my neck of the woods he would be known as kitty kat. or a reasonable facsimile thereof. :shade: :D

[thesource]

You guys are pathetic with this profile bullcrap.

Doug King, I give you permission to ride my***** about a blank profile. You are the only one who is giving me crap that actually has a last name.

All the rest of you sorry whiners, look in the mirror. No last names. Jim has no birthyear and no last name. Hypocrites.

What difference does it make? You could make it all up anyway, and some probably do.

Those who have been around the issue long enough know where I'm from. Doug, you can tell them my first name, which is as much as the rest of you brave and righteous individuals have put forth. If you were paying attention, you can even tell them what I do for a living.

What's that? You don't care? I didn't think so. So why bother with a profile? Tonight is the first night i have ever looked at one.

Find a new horse to ride - this one is LAME.

[thesource]

Now there's a good question about compounds and real bows.


Well, there you go again ....

Hold it like a bow, draw it like a bow, shoot it like a bow.

Quick! What are we talking about? Recurve? Compound? Longbow? Maybe...

Crossbow? Definitely not.


Way too easy.

[Doc Holliday]

So mr source, where are you from? I think that would be relevant information concerning some of your arguments. Something about sweeping your own steps first???? :D

[Jim C]

You guys are pathetic with this profile bullcrap.

Doug King, I give you permission to ride my***** about a blank profile. You are the only one who is giving me crap that actually has a last name.

All the rest of you sorry whiners, look in the mirror. No last names. Jim has no birthyear and no last name. Hypocrites.

What difference does it make? You could make it all up anyway, and some probably do.

Those who have been around the issue long enough know where I'm from. Doug, you can tell them my first name, which is as much as the rest of you brave and righteous individuals have put forth. If you were paying attention, you can even tell them what I do for a living.

What's that? You don't care? I didn't think so. So why bother with a profile? Tonight is the first night i have ever looked at one.

Find a new horse to ride - this one is LAME.

You haven't been around to understand that when this board first went up, if you put your birthyear in there, everyone would come out with the same birth year due to a flaw so I erased it-its 1959 and just about everyone who is involved in Olympic target archery knows my last name so I don't feel a need to post it. DOc pretty much hit it on the head with the Source (of disinformation)

[Jim C]

Well, there you go again ....

Hold it like a bow, draw it like a bow, shoot it like a bow.

Quick! What are we talking about? Recurve? Compound? Longbow? Maybe...

Crossbow? Definitely not.


Way too easy.

I remember when Darrell Pace got a compound bow-a day of x x x x x x x x x x
a couple hundred in a row. Me-I doubt I will ever break 1300 with a recurve-with my blown shoulder, an 1100 would be an accomplishment these days. shot a non-star fita with a compound-well over 1300. Of course that won't win anymore than my 1250 best fita ever would win in recurve but for hunting level accuracy, I can take a good athlete and have them outshoot 98% of the trads in an hour with a compound

TOO EASY.

you are drawing lines so you can exclude as many people as possible without excluding yourself

[thesource]

Voila.

I now have a profile. I hope you all are thrilled, and lay awake tonight just totally atwitter with the excitement of knowing all there is to know about the source.

Ridiculous.

But, hey, now we got one less item to distract us, right.

Let's continue.

[thesource]

you are drawing lines so you can exclude as many people as possible without excluding yourself


Where do you draw the line, Jim?

And how are you so sure that yours is the right line?

[Jim C]

Where do you draw the line, Jim?

And how are you so sure that yours is the right line?

I draw the line based on thirty years of shooting all kinds of bows. I have the expertise to know that a crossbow is like a hard bat table tennis paddle-easier to use for a rank beginner (given so many people have had firearms training) about the same for somewhat experienced archers and less effective for experts than a compound bow.

I also know that the predicted rate of harvest is basically the same for each bow.

the effect upon the herd is what matters, not how the bow is shot

[thesource]

Bullcrap answer.

Where do you draw the line on what we should allow into the early archery season?

And when you come clean and define that line, what makes your line the right line?

PS - Aren't you delighted to see that I now have a shiny new profile? I thought you would be the first to congratulate me..... I know how much it means to you.

[Jim C]

Bullcrap answer.

Where do you draw the line on what we should allow into the early archery season?

And when you come clean and define that line, what makes your line the right line?

PS - Aren't you delighted to see that I now have a shiny new profile? I thought you would be the first to congratulate me..... I know how much it means to you.


its not a bullcrap answer and your argument for drawing the line is a pathetic piece of excrement based upon your greed and bigotry.

I doubt anything you post is true-your proclivity for lying is well known-however, you might be telling the truth on where you live-your xbow bigotry is quite common there

I spent four years in Ithaca-what was the name of the PSE pro staff shooter there who had a place called the Bow Hut IIRC

everyone in upstate NY knows him

[thesource]

Why does he continually want to argue how people participate in a recreational sport?

Why does he care how someone chooses or not chooses to bowhunt?

Wierd............


not HOW, Doug. WHEN is what we are arguing about.

I have no problem with the how (crossbows). I have a problem with the when (bowseason)

Are you confusing yourself again?

[thesource]

its not a bullcrap answer and your argument for drawing the line is a pathetic piece of excrement based upon your greed and bigotry.

I doubt anything you post is true-your proclivity for lying is well known-however, you might be telling the truth on where you live-your xbow bigotry is quite common there

I spent four years in Ithaca-what was the name of the PSE pro staff shooter there who had a place called the Bow Hut IIRC

everyone in upstate NY knows him


I don't know him. I've never spent a minute in a pro shop and never met a "pro" shooter. Don't care to, to be honest.

Are you testing me? What do you want to know? Want to talk about State Parks? Buttermilk, Taugannock on the west side of Cayuga. Over a lake to Seneca? Sampson on the east side, Watkins Glen at the bottom.


Good enough for now? It'll have to be. I have a Freshman who has more important things to do online than argue about hunting seasons.

[doctariAFC]

What I would like to know is how can we all, as hunters, come to the compromise that will be needed to get the crossbow legal in NYS? The fact that source has moved SO FAR to the crossbow side of the equation is a testament that a COMPROMISE can be reached.
What we should be interested in doing is finding out if the crossbow would get new blood to the sport. The only way that will happen is if we get the chance to use them. A compromise can be reached. How do we get there?

Rich Davenport
WeLoveOutdoors.com...

Incidentally, the rifle bill is now law. Southern Tier counties in NYS will allow use of rifles during Big Game season in most counties where you can also hunt bear (Allegany Range, which, is expanded this year to points NORTH of old Route 17/ I-86)

[Doc Holliday]

Source/Bob/whatever..

It's not called "bowseason"..

It's called ARCHERY SEASON..

I posted a link straight from the NY Game Dept :smile:

Xbows are bows by the way..

HINT: crossBOW

Neat it works that way..huh :p


Heh heh there aint no cure for stupid. :wink:

Oh yeah, looks like good ole bob is going to make number 12 on my list.

Click. :p

[thesource]

Doug

You left out some of my favorite parts of the DEC's Archery Season:

Manner of Taking
It is illegal to take or hunt wildlife:

while in or on a motor vehicle (except by the holder of a Non Ambulatory Hunter Permit).
with the aid of a vehicle's lights.
on or from any public road.
with any firearm equipped with a silencer.
with any firearm which continues to fire as long as the trigger is held back (an automatic firearm).
with any semi-automatic firearm with a capacity to hold more than 6 rounds, except:
firearms using .22 or .17 caliber rimfire ammunition or,
firearms altered to reduce their capacity to no more than 6 shells at one time in the magazine and chamber combined, or
autoloading pistols with a barrel length of less than eight inches.
with a spear.

with a bow equipped with any mechanical device which is attached to the bow (other than the bowstring) for drawing, holding or releasing the bowstring except for a physically disabled person in possession of a Handicapped Archer Permit (compound bows are legal).

with a spear gun or crossbow except for a physically disabled person in possession of a Modified Crossbow Permit.
with an arrow with an explosive head or shaft.
with any device designed or intended to deliver drugs to an animal.

and


General Hunting Regulations
The following are general hunting regulations.
Definitions
Bow—includes long (stick), compound, or recurve bow.

NY state's definition of archery season appears pretty clear....and doesn't line up well at all with your point of view. :shade:

[BigBirdVA]

Looks like Archery to me too.

But just in case you forgot source here's a little help.................

arch·er·y n.

1. The art, sport, or skill of shooting with a bow and arrow.
2. The equipment of an archer.
3. A group of archers.

and some more..........

bow n.

1. A bent, curved, or arched object.
2. A weapon consisting of a curved, flexible strip of material, especially wood, strung taut from end to end and used to launch arrows.
3.
1. An archer.
2. Archers considered as a group.

and finally.......................

cross·bow n.

A weapon consisting of a bow fixed crosswise on a wooden stock, with grooves on the stock to direct the projectile.


You've argued with practically everyone on here, now go argue with the dictionary. I'm sure they'll change all of it once you explain it to them. :sad:

Just because NY decides to change the meaning of words doesn't mean everywhere else has to do it. In time they too will finally figure it out.

[BigBirdVA]

Source is a nutjob..


I knew he was way too obsessed when he quoted me from another site. OCD maybe? :mg:

I think the issue on here has run the course and it is what it is. Some people just have a hard time with xbows in archery no matter what you say or show them. My hunting buddy still has issues about safety and getting shot but didn't say a word last year when ML came in during archery - like it has for years. I worry more about that than any xbow. The ML has way more range and danger. Something about xbows drives some over the edge and alters the thought process.

[doctariAFC]

I knew he was way too obsessed when he quoted me from another site. OCD maybe? :mg:

I think the issue on here has run the course and it is what it is. Some people just have a hard time with xbows in archery no matter what you say or show them. My hunting buddy still has issues about safety and getting shot but didn't say a word last year when ML came in during archery - like it has for years. I worry more about that than any xbow. The ML has way more range and danger. Something about xbows drives some over the edge and alters the thought process.

What people have a hard time with is change. True the world over. Fear of the "unknown." When change, any change, is proposed, some will dig their heels in while others will jump for joy. Even when a proposal to change is substantiated with solid fact, we still get the resistance. To give you an example, a friend of mine sent me an email outlining deer hunting's history in NYS. He is also a fellow writer, and carries some serious years experience, and is a member of Team Realtree.

* The early 190Os - Opening deer hunting outside the Adirondacks would
decimate the small but expanding herds in those areas.

* The 1940s - As progressively more areas of the state opened to deer
hunting, many said it would decimate the expanding herds.

* The 1950s - Allowing a special NYS archery-only season AND a "Doe Day"
(the last day of the gun season) would decimate the expanding herds.

* The 1960s - Allowing all the special "Party Permits" to be issued
would decimate the expanding herds.

* The 1970s - The new-fangled compound bows don't qualify as true
archery bows that require skill and legalizing them would decimate the
expanding herds.

* The 1980s - Allowing muzzleloaders and handguns for deer hunting would
decimate the expanding herds.

* The 1990s - Allowing rifled-barreled slug guns and muzzleloader sabots
and conicals to be used would decimate the expanding herds.

* The 2000s - Deer population densities are at pest levels in many areas
of the state, but allowing crossbows to be used during archery season
would decimate the expanding herds.

* To be Continued ........

[Jim C]

to some extent you are right-however most of the hard core-the NYBowhunters with its stooges on this board, the PBS, Comptons etc know that xbows won't hurt anything-they are just greedy and selfish clowns with serious ego and self image problems but they can't admit those faults so they parrot crap they don't believe

[doctariAFC]

Yes, that is oftentimes the case, but, this condition is also true across many organizations. NYB has certainly done some good, but they start to teeter on nonsensical when you realize that many of the folks who started this organization made up the same people who said:
* The 1970s - The new-fangled compound bows don't qualify as true
archery bows that require skill and legalizing them would decimate the
expanding herds.
Same arguments today against the crossbow. Well, 30 years ago, despite these claims against the compound bow, we have them as legal implemets for Archery Season in NY, and the same will happen with crossbows. IS there some legitimacy to the fears that bowhunters have regarding more people in the woods? Perhaps. I know I for one do prefer the Archery Season for its tranquility, the chance to observe deer in as natural a condition as can be during any given hunting season. However, we ought not be selfish and try to keep this period to ourselves. Rather, we should share this experience, teaching the proper techniques and respect for wildlife that we focus on during archery training courses, and taking newbies on hunts. After all, with numbers of hunters declining, our abilities to conserve and protect the wildlife for the future becomes a far more difficult task to accomplish.
Now, from this poll that was conducted, it is self-evident that sentiments of hunters favor the crossbow for NY hunters. Compromise will be the key. After all, a foot in the door is better than a doorknob in the crotch, and if we can get crossbows legalized for all to use, even if its for one or two weeks during the archery season, allows us all to experience first hand the truth of this implement, which is that it doesn't matter what tool you hunt with, its about the hunt and developing good skills as a hunter. We can get it done. NY hunters want it done. So it is written, so it shall be.

[Revival]

It is the classic position of emotion vs. realism. Facts do not matter to people like "thesource". They simply believe they have "earned" some sacred right to hunt more than others who enjoy using a bow that has an additional 2000 years more history than the compound bow has.

I agree that beginning with compromise is the right strategy for NY, but recognize that the reason the anti-crossbow crowd is so emotional is because they are in a decidedly weak position and have no real hope of long term success.

Money was mentioned early on, and that is in my opinion what will end up being the primary motivating factor. Damage from uncontrolled deer, revenue from more hunters transitioning to a longer season and the taxes from x-bow sales and hunting equipment for archers all add up to crossbows being an intelligent decision for any state.

It comes back to reason and logic vs. emotion. The crossbow issue is a cultural topic of elitism and once the facts are more widely known regarding the benefits of allowing crossbows throughout archery season the supporting legislation will be made.

Ask any state that has allowed them.

[doctariAFC]

It is the classic position of emotion vs. realism. Facts do not matter to people like "thesource". They simply believe they have "earned" some sacred right to hunt more than others who enjoy using a bow that has an additional 2000 years more history than the compound bow has.

I agree that beginning with compromise is the right strategy for NY, but recognize that the reason the anti-crossbow crowd is so emotional is because they are in a decidedly weak position and have no real hope of long term success.

Money was mentioned early on, and that is in my opinion what will end up being the primary motivating factor. Damage from uncontrolled deer, revenue from more hunters transitioning to a longer season and the taxes from x-bow sales and hunting equipment for archers all add up to crossbows being an intelligent decision for any state.

It comes back to reason and logic vs. emotion. The crossbow issue is a cultural topic of elitism and once the facts are more widely known regarding the benefits of allowing crossbows throughout archery season the supporting legislation will be made.

Ask any state that has allowed them.

This is exactly on the money. Change is always fought over based on emotional "upheaval" oftentimes ignoring the facts and realities. Hey, why would any hunter fear adding an additional implement to chose from? Doesn't affect anyone's specific choice, unless your choice is not allowed. Oh yeah, and to those who would like to say a "meaningless poll from a meaningless website," I would simply say, "Do you like apples?"

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050904/1029123.asp

"How do you like them apples?"

[Revival]

Very cool, but you know the Buffalo News is a meaningless newspaper. It only has ~630,000 weekly readers and ~775,000 Sunday readers. Meaningless I'm telling you :D

I subscribe to Buckmasters and do wish the author of the article that was also mentioned by the Buffalo News had spent a bit more time on the actual function of the crossbow and his experiance instead of responding to the opposition's standard view. Regardless, the story had it's place, and I appreciate all media that strives for the truth regarding crossbows.

I also contacted the Maryland Bowhunter Society, trying to get a copy of the presentation but have not yet recieved it. The Presedent of the club though seems like a great guy and I'm sure I will get it eventually.

[doctariAFC]

Very cool, but you know the Buffalo News is a meaningless newspaper. It only has ~630,000 weekly readers and ~775,000 Sunday readers. Meaningless I'm telling you :D

I subscribe to Buckmasters and do wish the author of the article that was also mentioned by the Buffalo News had spent a bit more time on the actual function of the crossbow and his experiance instead of responding to the opposition's standard view. Regardless, the story had it's place, and I appreciate all media that strives for the truth regarding crossbows.

I also contacted the Maryland Bowhunter Society, trying to get a copy of the presentation but have not yet recieved it. The Presedent of the club though seems like a great guy and I'm sure I will get it eventually.

No doubt. I know that Outdoor News (NY) is doing a piece on crossbows and is also going to reference my poll as a source of public opinion. Don't know what that article will entail, but I'll take the press any day of the week. Also, and more importantly, if we can add another solid choice for those hunting NY, I think we will certainly reap benefits. Heck, we just got rifle usage in the Southern Tier, counties bordering PA, well, at least many of them.

At some point, we will also provide insightful info on crossbows, which are another tool for hunting. Hey, if you write and want some added exposure, let us know. We are looking for writers.

you may email me at rich@weloveoutdoors.com


Thanks

Rich

[thesource]

Not everyone is thrilled with rifles, either.

At what cost, "progress"?

[Big Country]

Not everyone is thrilled with rifles, either.

At what cost, "progress"?

If progress is your concern here, then I am sure you will move on to the repealing of compound bow usage in archery season, as soon as you have finished the fight to keep crossbows out....right? :rolleyes:

I still have an old 4 wheeler bow laying around here somewhere. I can vividly remember how effective they were compared to the modern rigs of today.

Yep, my old early 70`s compound is vastly inferior to my two new hunting bows this year. In fact, it is inferior to my custom built recurve.

These darn compounds gotta go next!

Anybody want to buy an `05 ProTec? How about an `05 TurboTec?

I am ashamed at the lazy, slob hunter I have turned into. :cry:

[Jim C]

If progress is your concern here, then I am sure you will move on to the repealing of compound bow usage in archery season, as soon as you have finished the fight to keep crossbows out....right? :rolleyes:

I still have an old 4 wheeler bow laying around here somewhere. I can vividly remember how effective they were compared to the modern rigs of today.

Yep, my old early 70`s compound is vastly inferior to my two new hunting bows this year. In fact, it is inferior to my custom built recurve.

These darn compounds gotta go next!

Anybody want to buy an `05 ProTec? How about an `05 TurboTec?

I am ashamed at the lazy, slob hunter I have turned into. :cry:
:D :D :D :D

[thesource]

If progress is your concern here, then I am sure you will move on to the repealing of compound bow usage in archery season, as soon as you have finished the fight to keep crossbows out....right?

Where do you draw the line? When do you have enough technological advantage? Why have any rules at all?

Rifles instead of slug guns.

Inlines instead of sidelocks.

Crossbows instead of compounds.

Do you want me to go out and tie an 8 pointer up for you? I mean, how simple do you guys need it?

For what its worth, I wish you good luck this season, BC. Then again, with all those widgets, who needs luck?

[BigBirdVA]

Where do you draw the line? When do you have enough technological advantage? Why have any rules at all?

Rifles instead of slug guns.

Inlines instead of sidelocks.

Crossbows instead of compounds.

Do you want me to go out and tie an 8 pointer up for you? I mean, how simple do you guys need it?

For what its worth, I wish you good luck this season, BC. Then again, with all those widgets, who needs luck?

You draw YOUR own line wherever you want to. But you don't tell others where to draw theirs. Unless you have your own state.
You still burning candles and riding a horse? Look in the mirror before you point fingers. Archery is but one point on the compass. Advances come into being every day.

[Jim C]

Where do you draw the line? When do you have enough technological advantage? Why have any rules at all?

Rifles instead of slug guns.

Inlines instead of sidelocks.

Crossbows instead of compounds.

Do you want me to go out and tie an 8 pointer up for you? I mean, how simple do you guys need it?

For what its worth, I wish you good luck this season, BC. Then again, with all those widgets, who needs luck?


psychobabble

[thesource]

Yep -

I will draw my line.
And noone should tell me where to draw it.

I have never interfered with crossbow legalization in any state but my own (which not everyone here can say). I expect the same courtesy from others, but alas, it doesn't happen that way.

Save your sanctimonious blather for someone unaware of your history. And leave New Yorkers to discuss the future of crossbows in NY.

[Jim C]

Yep -

I will draw my line.
And noone should tell me where to draw it.

I have never interfered with crossbow legalization in any state but my own (which not everyone here can say). I expect the same courtesy from others, but alas, it doesn't happen that way.

Save your sanctimonious blather for someone unaware of your history. And leave New Yorkers to discuss the future of crossbows in NY.


bigotry based on greed sucks no matter where its stench is located

[thesource]

What's this WE bullcrap?

Have you even been to NY, you "nutcase"?

Classic example - MYOB - mind your own business.

[BigBirdVA]

What's this WE bullcrap?

Have you even been to NY, you "nutcase"?

Classic example - MYOB - mind your own business.

Not going to happen. You don't - why should we?
Where's the next on-line poll guys? :D

[Jim C]

What's this WE bullcrap?

Have you even been to NY, you "nutcase"?

Classic example - MYOB - mind your own business.


two degrees from cornell-do u have short term memory issues

[retro-grouch]

I find it interestening that you guys have stooped to name calling. Pretty much says where some of you guys come from...sad reflection of the hunting community. While I find some validation is Source's opinion, I have come to realize that this issue will only impact me if I let it do so.

I have my opinions about x-bows in archery season, and whether they are archery equipment as it was defined when the seasons were first afforded to bowhunters. Sure some groups and folks say it is. They are entitled to their opinions. I used to really worry about what everyone else thought. Not anymore.

I do not fear you folks taking away my bowhunting opportunity. I bowhunt whatever is in season, whenever it is in season. Should the antlered forest rat season ever be shortened because of overharvest, I suspect I won't see many of you out there with x-bows in the firearms seasons. For most of you its a "my, your, our deer season" issue. However, I do think that turkey with a crossbow would be a challenge.

As long as you are happy, then so be it.

With that said, I will also tell you that IMO you are not practicing the archery I have known for more than 30 years. And should I happen upon a person using a crossbow in archery season, I would just as soon avoid him/her as opposed to struggling to find any common ground. That does not mean you are not entitled to be there. You have very right to pursue your interest.

I will stand along side any fair chase, conservation minded, outdoorsman in the fight to protect this sport aganst the anti's, but come the end of the day, not everyone will be invited to my campfire. You ain't lesser, and you ain't greater, we are just different.

[Jim C]

I find it interestening that you guys have stooped to name calling. Pretty much says where some of you guys come from...sad reflection of the hunting community. While I find some validation is Source's opinion, I have come to realize that this issue will only impact me if I let it do so.

I have my opinions about x-bows in archery season, and whether they are archery equipment as it was defined when the seasons were first afforded to bowhunters. Sure some groups and folks say it is. They are entitled to their opinions. I used to really worry about what everyone else thought. Not anymore.

I do not fear you folks taking away my bowhunting opportunity. I bowhunt whatever is in season, whenever it is in season. Should the antlered forest rat season ever be shortened because of overharvest, I suspect I won't see many of you out there with x-bows in the firearms seasons. For most of you its a "my, your, our deer season" issue. However, I do think that turkey with a crossbow would be a challenge.

As long as you are happy, then so be it.

With that said, I will also tell you that IMO you are not practicing the archery I have known for more than 30 years. And should I happen upon a person using a crossbow in archery season, I would just as soon avoid him/her as opposed to struggling to find any common ground. That does not mean you are not entitled to be there. You have very right to pursue your interest.

I will stand along side any fair chase, conservation minded, outdoorsman in the fight to protect this sport aganst the anti's, but come the end of the day, not everyone will be invited to my campfire. You ain't lesser, and you ain't greater, we are just different.

interesting-what sort of archery?

[Revival]

Hey everyone, just cause thesource has resorted to purely defensive lashing out, doesn't mean we need to chastise him for it. He is one of our best proponents. He thinks in illogical ways and doesn't bring constructive or effective arguments to the table.

"ban progress" or "go away! my state, my rules..." is what he is reduced to. As much as he would like to be a threat, I find him quite an insignificant player.

Dude, if you want to play ball you better get your head screwed on srtaight and approach the topic with reason. I am not opposed to, or afraid of logical debate in and way. Even more, I enjoy it when anti-crossbow mouthpieces make fools of themselves.

I don't like it when we get coersed to respond in like manner to the attacks. Guys we have nothing to worry about. Trust me.

>>edit
Retro, I just read your post and that is exactly the type of post that is appropriate. We don't have to agree, but you didn't base your disagreement on retoric. We are all allowed to "feel" what we want. Well done.

[retro-grouch]

interesting-what sort of archery?


Jim..not sure what you are asking? But, if you are wondering about my equipment, I shoot classic archery equipment. Pretty much what was available when we got our first Penna. archery season back in 1951. Laminated glass bow and wood arrows.

I started out that way in 1973 and though I did go the compound route in the lates 70's, by the early 80's I decided that I needed more challenge and simplicity in my bowhunting, so I went back to stickbows.

I do own a few primitive bows also, and I have carried those in the woods too. Right now I have some dogwood shoots that need cut down to 11/32, and some trade points for those dogwoods. Yes I am progressing.

That is the archery I know.

If you ever want to learn about classical archery and its roots, just give ma a shout. You could say I am a stckbow guru. Or maybe just a "retro_grouch":^)

[Jim C]

Jim..not sure what you are asking? But, if you are wondering about my equipment, I shoot classic archery equipment. Pretty much what was available when we got our first Penna. archery season back in 1951. Laminated glass bow and wood arrows.

I started out that way in 1973 and though I did go the compound route in the lates 70's, by the early 80's I decided that I needed more challenge and simplicity in my bowhunting, so I went back to stickbows.

I do own a few primitive bows also, and I have carried those in the woods too. Right now I have some dogwood shoots that need cut down to 11/32, and some trade points for those dogwoods. Yes I am progressing.

That is the archery I know.

If you ever want to learn about classical archery and its roots, just give ma a shout. You could say I am a stckbow guru. Or maybe just a "retro_grouch":^)
thanks-I have a bunch of stickbows but they are Martins and Rick Wray (Miami Valley Bow Company) and a couple earl Hoyt target longbows but I don't have any primitive ones

[doctariAFC]

As promised, an article is now posted on www.weloveoutdoors.com (http://www.weloveoutdoors.com), which presents the analysis of the polling results.
Clearly, public opinion supports crossbow use in NY. Now, a we must work toegther to craft something that will work. I proposed a compromise solution earlier. Let's come up with other ideas and mix them all togther and see what we can shake out for crossbow use in NYS.

Thanks much

Rich

[thesource]

YOUR poll's public opinion shows marginal support.

If NYB ran a poll on their website, I'd guess the outcome would be vastly different.

I think I'll wait for a little broader slice of NY sportsmen's opinion than your website before I draw any conclusions.

[Doc Holliday]

Here's to you New Yorkers getting crossbows. :beer:

If for no other reason than to stick a thumb in the eye of people like good ole bob. :D

[doctariAFC]

YOUR poll's public opinion shows marginal support.

If NYB ran a poll on their website, I'd guess the outcome would be vastly different.

I think I'll wait for a little broader slice of NY sportsmen's opinion than your website before I draw any conclusions.

This is why our poll is so unique and extremely legitimate, and perhaps the best gauge of public opinion. We draw interest from ALL hunters, not just bowhunters. This is an issue that affects ALL hunters, not just bow hunters. This is why media outlets such as the Buffalo News and NY Outdoor News look to this poll and are citing it as a source of public opinion, because this site appeals to more than just bowhunters, hunters, sportsmen and women. We cover 40 different sports. This is as broad an audience in terms of interests as you can get. And the people have spoken.

[Revival]

The poll this thread is about seemed to be quite reasonable, but at the end of the day it is not an Internet poll that will determine the fate of crossbows in New York or anywhere else.

Budgets, wildlife management and a state's desire to provide the most opportunity for it's citizens will.

Anyone may be against them all they want, they can call them or their users every name in the book. It doesn't change the fact that it it the fastest growing hunting contingent for good reason and one that is indeed here to stay.


---------------

I recommend that the state of New York, begin by allowing a limited Crossbow season that overlaps the current archery seasons. The permit structure should be the same, but differentiate between crossbow harvests and other vertical bow harvest for the purpose of effective management. Additional bowhunter education should be required per current standards. The length of season can be phased in beginning 2 weeks after regular bow season in all zones and run for a period of 4-8 weeks if that zone allows it.

After 2 years of analysis, consideration should be made to have both seasons run concurrently in all zones.

I am certain the state will only find beneficial results from allowing crossbows as a choice for it's citizens.

[doctariAFC]

The poll this thread is about seemed to be quite reasonable, but at the end of the day it is not an Internet poll that will determine the fate of crossbows in New York or anywhere else.

Budgets, wildlife management and a state's desire to provide the most opportunity for it's citizens will.

Anyone may be against them all they want, they can call them or their users every name in the book. It doesn't change the fact that it it the fastest growing hunting contingent for good reason and one that is indeed here to stay.


---------------

I recommend that the state of New York, begin by allowing a limited Crossbow season that overlaps the current archery seasons. The permit structure should be the same, but differentiate between crossbow harvests and other vertical bow harvest for the purpose of effective management. Additional bowhunter education should be required per current standards. The length of season can be phased in beginning 2 weeks after regular bow season in all zones and run for a period of 4-8 weeks if that zone allows it.

After 2 years of analysis, consideration should be made to have both seasons run concurrently in all zones.

I am certain the state will only find beneficial results from allowing crossbows as a choice for it's citizens.
Good job Brad in nailing this one. Crossbows will not be allowed due to polling, but movement on the issue will come from public desires and opinions, and constructive work amongst the ranks of hunters. Of course, the real reasons behind allowing any new hunting tool is ultimately money, as is all too often the reasons anything are done by politicians. Nonetheless, understanding this reality should help hunters move this one forward, and with public opinion positioned as such, we can take it as a good sign to construct something beneficial.
I like the approach you have here. I am in favor of a similar approach. Allow crossbows during reg and extended seasons, and open crossbow use to the last 7 days of early archery season. I would rather see a 5 year period before expanding crossbow use longer throughout the archery season, as 5 years is the cycle of USF&W survey reports, and these numbers I trust a little more than State posted information. But, yes, this is exactly where we need to go, we just need to come to an agreement about how long crossbow use will be in the current archery season. Require an additional crossbow stamp, AND the bowhunting stamp. Phase in training as part of bowhunter's safety.

[thesource]

This is why our poll is so unique and extremely legitimate, and perhaps the best gauge of public opinion. We draw interest from ALL hunters, not just bowhunters.


Yea ...

I see you had a whopping 220 votes from New Yorkers (the only sportsment whose opinions should matter in this particular case).

If you don't mind, I think I'll wait for the other 700,000+ resident big game hunters in NY to weigh in before I get as excited as you seem to be. ;)

[doctariAFC]

Yea ...

I see you had a whopping 220 votes from New Yorkers (the only sportsment whose opinions should matter in this particular case).

If you don't mind, I think I'll wait for the other 700,000+ resident big game hunters in NY to weigh in before I get as excited as you seem to be. ;)
The same way we should wait for all Americans to vote in any given election, right? We had a solid smattering of geographic respresentation. Every survey conducted is based on a small sample size, and then results are determined via extrapolated probabilities.

But, I will say nice try. Some folks would choose to not participate, and then say they weren't included. NYB asked me that question. When I informed them the poll was up for