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bowhuntin_kid
March 20th, 2006, 07:56 PM
Maybe someone can help me out here. What's the difference between a Catholic person and a Christian person? This is going to sound dumb and ignorant, but I'm not too sure what I am. Can you please explain the difference between someone who's Catholic and someone who's Christian?

hooks
March 20th, 2006, 09:30 PM
If you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior then you are a christian.

All of these are christian.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Christianity/Denominations_and_Sects/

Spreggy
March 20th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Did you hear about the Protestant who went to heaven? St. Peter was giving him the tour and St. Peter gives him the OK to go anywhere he wants, except on the other side of that great big curtain over there. The Protestant says why not, and St. Peter replies "The Catholics are on the other side, they think they're the only ones up here".

That joke was current when I was a kid, now just sub in Evangelist, they think they're the only ones who know the secret handshake now.

:)

The 6th Spreggy trying to lighten the mood in the Campfire on Benado Monday.

hooks
March 20th, 2006, 10:09 PM
It's the truth though.:wink:

doctariAFC
March 20th, 2006, 10:20 PM
Ahhhhh... The age-old question. When is a Christian not a Christian? When they're Catholic.

In a nutshell, the difference between Catholics and Protestant Christians is who get to read the Word of God. Cathoics have always believed only the Priest or other ordained man of God could look upon the Holy words. The parishoners could not, for if they dide, it would blind them and damn them to eternal fire and brimstone. It is the truth. Next time you happen into a RC Church, search the pews for a Bible. Won't find one. Hymn books and Missilettes (the priest's weekly snippets of the good book for his parishoners to read and hear what he thinks about it)

Protestants believe the word of God is for all to look upon and ponder. SOme also believe Priests can get married, but they're called Reverends and Preachers..... heeheehee....

Catholics also believe you may partake in the Holy Sacrament only on Sunday. Many Protestants do not share this restriction.

Catholics also put the rite of Baptism as the first rite of passage in the order of the Faith (followed by communion, confirmation and marriage). Protestants believe you cannot be baptized until you make the choice to be baptized, and the pouring of water on a baby's head is just washing it off.

They all, however, share the belief in tithing! 10% of what you make must go to the house of the Lord..... "Ahh, God is almighty, all powerful, all knowing..... but he has this little problem with money! He needs it, and a lot of it!" (George Carlin) I'm going straight to the hot place, now...... :devil:

affe22
March 20th, 2006, 10:25 PM
Don't listen to what Doctari said at all. It pretty much isn't correct at all.

Doc
March 20th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I used to be Catholic until I reached the age of .................reason:wink: .

hooks
March 20th, 2006, 10:25 PM
Is that before or after write offs?

mttc08
March 20th, 2006, 10:32 PM
what happens if you don't give your 10%.....and is that before or after taxes??
what if an emergency comes up and you have to have that 10% for something else that week?
Also, is that 10% due everytime you walk thru the door or can you just give once a week? Do some people divide the 10% and give equal amounts each time they go to church.
Example......$100 equals your 10%.......for the week. You go sunday morning and give $50 then go sunday nite and give $50 and then wed. nite you have to give 0? I seiously want to know. I am not trying to be a smart azz here but, I have sat in groups and discussed this very thing and no one knows.....:confused:

hooks
March 20th, 2006, 10:40 PM
I have been told that if you don't give 10% of your total earnings that I am steeling from God and I'm going to hell. I have also been told that it is a "False Doctrine" I like the last one best.

affe22
March 20th, 2006, 10:46 PM
what happens if you don't give your 10%.....and is that before or after taxes??
what if an emergency comes up and you have to have that 10% for something else that week?
Also, is that 10% due everytime you walk thru the door or can you just give once a week? Do some people divide the 10% and give equal amounts each time they go to church.
Example......$100 equals your 10%.......for the week. You go sunday morning and give $50 then go sunday nite and give $50 and then wed. nite you have to give 0? I seiously want to know. I am not trying to be a smart azz here but, I have sat in groups and discussed this very thing and no one knows.....:confused:

The 10% is a good starting point. Outside of a few religions, it isn't a rule that you give 10% but I think you should give something and that 10% is a starting point for us. For my wife and I, we make $X before taxes and give 10% of it every Sunday morning. It is pretty much built into our expenses for the week. If an emergency happened, we would give our 10% for the week still and use money in our savings. We have about 3 months worth of bills saved up in case of such emergency. Really, I think it is more important that you give whatever you feel lead to and you do it to show God thanks and have the proper attitude about it all. The reason you never get a direct answer is due to the fact that there is no set rule on it but some people try to convince others there is.

AJ008
March 20th, 2006, 11:00 PM
OOO this will be fun!:rolleyes:

Ok way back in the day when Christ came he founded the "Christian Church" which at the time was the same thing as the Catholic Church until Vatican II modernized the Church. At about the middle ages you had a bunch of people that couldn't handle the strict ways of the Catholic church so they made off branches which are known as "Protestant (meaning protesting the Catholic Church) religions" which refer to them selves as often times as Christians because they believe in Christ but are not Catholic Church. Or you'll get people who believe in Christ but not in any church.

I dunno, I come from a long line of Irish Catholics and I'm proud to say that I get up at 5 in the mornin to go hear Mass in LATIN the it was in the 50's and like all my ancestors did ever since St. Patrick came to Ireland:wink:
But anyways I went to a protestant church a few months back for a funeral and almost busted my gut when they said the Apostles Creed and they got to the part that they believed in the "Holy Catholic Church":rolleyes: :confused:

If y'all want to challage anything in the post its all simple history that even an athiest can agree with:wink:

Doc
March 20th, 2006, 11:03 PM
OOO this will be fun!:rolleyes:

Ok way back in the day when Christ came he founded the "Christian Church" ...its all simple history that even an athiest can agree with:wink:

Now how can an atheist believe that?

mttc08
March 20th, 2006, 11:06 PM
:eek:

doctariAFC
March 20th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Don't listen to what Doctari said at all. It pretty much isn't correct at all.
No, it is correct. I'm a Roman Catholic. I've also had the pleasure of witnessing several Protestant churches and how they worship, too.

Biggest difference is the Bible. The only place a Bible is found in a RC church is at the Pulpit for the Priest to view. Sure ain't in the pews for the congregation.

Sad, but true. Gotta look at the history of the Catholic Church, from its founding through the Crusades to the Inquisition years to the modernization to find this stuff. But it is all true. Sorry.

doctariAFC
March 20th, 2006, 11:25 PM
The 10% is a good starting point. Outside of a few religions, it isn't a rule that you give 10% but I think you should give something and that 10% is a starting point for us. For my wife and I, we make $X before taxes and give 10% of it every Sunday morning. It is pretty much built into our expenses for the week. If an emergency happened, we would give our 10% for the week still and use money in our savings. We have about 3 months worth of bills saved up in case of such emergency. Really, I think it is more important that you give whatever you feel lead to and you do it to show God thanks and have the proper attitude about it all. The reason you never get a direct answer is due to the fact that there is no set rule on it but some people try to convince others there is.
The 10% is actually a figure from I believe the old Testament. During the Catholic's Church's hayday, people were forced to tithe to get into the Kingdom of God. Dark Ages days. If you didn't pay, you would be ex-communicated and labeled a heretic, which was punishable by death. Believe it or not, Led Zeppelin's greatest hit (arguably, not my fav, but arguably) was based on the old Catholic mandate of buying your Stairway to Heaven.

en nomine Patre, Jesus Christe y spitiru sanctu, :amen:

the natural
March 20th, 2006, 11:39 PM
why dont so many churches worship on the real sabbath(saturday) instead of the false sabbath(sunday) that was made manditory by the romans?isnt that considered a sin.

mttc08
March 20th, 2006, 11:48 PM
the ability to change time....the catholic church changed the sabbath from sat. to sunday.....that is a historical fact.....also the evening and the morning were the first day, according to the bible... can you guess who changed time to where the new day starts at mid night????.....history says.....the catholic church......studied this stuff before....very interesting, lots of stuff that are unknown to the every day person of how some things came to be.

bowhunter0916
March 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
I have been told that if you don't give 10% of your total earnings that I am steeling from God and I'm going to hell. I have also been told that it is a "False Doctrine" I like the last one best.
This must have been a Babtist church???

Selil
March 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM
Maybe someone can help me out here. What's the difference between a Catholic person and a Christian person?


Not a darn thing is different. Our religion gives us additional meaning to our lives, and in some cases it may be the meaning. But, people continue on and are people. It doesn’t matter what religion people are as a whole they have all the same issues, prejudices, compassion, and chance to do good. The truism of this statement is found in the simple logic “What is the difference between a baseball player and football player?” A different game, a different ball, but likely as a person they aren’t much different.


This is going to sound dumb and ignorant, but I'm not too sure what I am. Can you please explain the difference between someone who's Catholic and someone who's Christian?

Neither dumb nor ignorant. Unless you’ve been to or finished catechism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism) likely you aren’t catholic. The Catholic Church is the Christian foundational church directly going back to Peter one of the apostles. Martin Luther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther) an Agustian Monk attempted to reform the catholic church. His attempts or protests gave us the basic tenets of Protestantism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) which is a large part of the religious community of the United States. Some differences between catholic’s and protestant’s is the existence of the Apocryphal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphal) in the catholic bible. These non canonical texts or “books” in the catholic bible are not found in the protestant bible.

Once again I’ll jump back to analogy “What is the difference between a Raiders fan and a Packers fan?” Don’t they both have a love for the same sport, agree on the basic rules, and in general have a pretty good time on Sunday? They may argue, disagree, and denigrate each other but in the end it’s arguing about trivialities of a moment in time rather than whether or not the game exists.

hooks
March 21st, 2006, 12:10 AM
The 10% is actually a figure from I believe the old Testament. During the Catholic's Church's hayday, people were forced to tithe to get into the Kingdom of God. Dark Ages days. If you didn't pay, you would be ex-communicated and labeled a heretic, which was punishable by death. Believe it or not, Led Zeppelin's greatest hit (arguably, not my fav, but arguably) was based on the old Catholic mandate of buying your Stairway to Heaven.

en nomine Patre, Jesus Christe y spitiru sanctu, :amen:

In Gregorian chant!!

Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo When we were alter boys we use to say "I can play dominos better than you can".

Kyrie, eleison. Christe, eleison. Kyrie, eleison. Was there a sacramental reason for Father Name Withheld to rinse the chalace out with wine twice?
I know something you don't.


Tell me, is Moses in heaven? He is a murderer you know. And he wasn't catholic. What about the genealogy of Jesus starting at Math. 1:1 Are any of them in heaven. They weren't catholic either. Weren't they Jews?

Timothy McVeigh, while he was strapped to the gurney, prison officials said McVeigh received the Roman Catholic sacrament of the Anointment of the Sick, which is believed to forgive sins and prepare the sick for the passing over to eternal life. Is he in heaven?

the natural
March 21st, 2006, 12:13 AM
the ability to change time....the catholic church changed the sabbath from sat. to sunday.....that is a historical fact.....also the evening and the morning were the first day, according to the bible... can you guess who changed time to where the new day starts at mid night????.....history says.....the catholic church......studied this stuff before....very interesting, lots of stuff that are unknown to the every day person of how some things came to be.
i find it kind of funny that all these people who have so much faith in the lord and they still cant seem to do as he says and worship on the sabath.

the natural
March 21st, 2006, 12:17 AM
i believe it is catholics who also pray to mary, for what reason i do not know and to ask is someone is in heaven, no everyone that dies will not go strait to heaven or hell but wait for his coming.

Myk
March 21st, 2006, 12:18 AM
Ahh, the old Catholics aren't Christian thing I was raised with.
It's really embarassing when as a kid you unknowingly spread that bigoted "knowledge" to your Catholic friends.

This just goes to show that if the Christians in the US were able to pull of a Theocracy, we would be in the exact same boat as the Middle East with different forms of the official religion are more right than other forms.

Catholics are Christians. Short of Christians who don't go to church and have never gone to church, most Christians are some other sect of Christianity and for whatever reason they are not telling what sect they are. (From what I've deduced by searching the things they say, they sound like they came to Christianity in some fundamentalist evangelical revival tent. Also Assemblies of God tend to refuse to say what sect they are and only claim "Christian".)

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 09:07 AM
You are all wrong.....Baptists aren't Christians, Catholics aren't Christians, Protestants aren't Christians, Muslims DEFINITELY aren't Christians.......Christians are Christians.

Denominations are, imho, of the devil and are meant to confuse people and cause division. They resulted from different interpretations of the bible. I don't like the non-drinking stuff in the bible, so I will start my own denomination that allows drinking.

Go to Luke 39 verses 39-43 where Jesus hung on the Cross with two thiefs beside him.

One thief sort of mocked him saying "hey, if you are who you say you are....save yourself and us". The other thief realized who Jesus was and said "Hey, don't mock him....don't your realized who this is? He did nothing wrong and was sinless" and then the thief asked Jesus to just think of him when he got to heaven. Jesus said I will do one better, today you will be with me in paradise.

So there is the entire plan of salvation spelled out.....realize you are a sinner, realize who Jesus is, realize that Jesus was the only sinless man on Earth ever, and accept him on faith. Really pretty simple. This thief didn't get baptised, sprinkled, do any works, ride any bikes, pass out any tracts, etc. He accepted a free gift and JESUS said...not me or man....JESUS said, "you will be with me in paradise today". The entire plan of salvation in a few versus confirmed by Jesus himself......who can argue with that?

Now as for the entire Catholic thing I will just say this. There will be people of all denominations in Heaven. However, the bible clearly states that not everyone who says Lord Lord will get in. The reason? God isn't smoke insurance. You can't say "yeah, I will accept God but only to keep me out of hell but as for the rest of my life I will live it the way I want".

IMHO, the Catholic Church has a problem in that its basic premise is sinning without conscience and saying some prayer to atone for it is wrong. Jesus came to atone for our sins and this methodology seeks to replace the works Jesus did. As Christians, we need to re-establish our relationship with God when we sin and get that sin out of our life but if we accepted the free gift of eternal salvation from God, our sins have already been forgiven. When we are saved, God puts the Holy Spirit in our hearts and minds as a sort of sin thermometer. When we get into sin, the Holy Spirit corrects and convicts us so that we know it is wrong.

I give the example of a person going to a bar. Before getting saved, the person can go to a bar and drink it up and have no conviction that what he/she is doing is wrong. The next day at work, they brag "boy howdy, let me tell you what I did last night". They are proud of it. Once accepting Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit, you can still go to that same bar and do those same things but you should feel out of place and instead of bragging the next day at work, you should feel ashamed.

If you call yourself a Christian and can do wrong and sin (not illegal things or even unethical things that would cause your normal non-Christian conscience to kick in) without feeling conviction, I would check up friend.

I know many Catholics that have told me "this weekend, I am going to go sin up and get drunk and bed as many women as I can because I am planning to go to mass on Monday night and I want to get my money's worth when I atone". That, my friends, is not a Christian....IMHO. On the other hand, I have another Catholic friend who seeks to live as Godly a life as any Baptist I know and I am certain he is a Christian.

That's how I see it and that's the truth about salvation. Take it for what it is worth.

New

hooks
March 21st, 2006, 09:26 AM
Tell me New, Did Jesus die for "all" of our sins or just some of them?

affe22
March 21st, 2006, 09:26 AM
i find it kind of funny that all these people who have so much faith in the lord and they still cant seem to do as he says and worship on the sabath.

The Sabbath was Old Testament law and only Jews believe that you have to worship on the Sabbath (aka Saturday). The New Testament showed that you could worship on whatever day you wanted and it was ok. I don't think God gets mad if we use Sunday as the day of rest and worship instead of Saturday as long as there is a day for it. It kind of should be a week long thing anyhow.

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 09:40 AM
Tell me New, Did Jesus die for "all" of our sins or just some of them?

Every sin, past present and future......

That doesn't mean we will not sin though, of course. Also, it doesn't give us the license to sin because, afterall, Jesus died for all of those sins.

IMHO, if you profess to have received the Lord and can still sin without conscience or go on a sin-wagon tour because you plan to go to church the next day, week, or month.....you need to make sure of your salvation.

JMHO,
New

Myk
March 21st, 2006, 09:50 AM
You are all wrong.....Baptists aren't Christians, Catholics aren't Christians, Protestants aren't Christians, Muslims DEFINITELY aren't Christians.......Christians are Christians.
You are wrong. There is no such thing as just a "Christian", you are some sect or another.
Like you said, the different sects are caused by different interpretations of the Bible, everyone has their own interpretation and they gather with those who have similar interpretations.

Generally those how refuse to give their denomination are from very cultish groups. It's not that they don't have a denomination, it's that it's part of the cult-like behavior to not say what you are knowing you won't get more members if you do.


The Sabbath was Old Testament law and only Jews believe that you have to worship on the Sabbath (aka Saturday).
Good cop out, but Jesus never threw out old laws, he added to them.
But as long as you're sticking with that cop out, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? (Please do not get on that subject.) The same ones who claim "that's OT law" will preach "Sodom and Gomorrah" when it's convenient.
Does "that's OT law" apply to the 10 Commandments too?

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 10:00 AM
You are wrong. There is no such thing as just a "Christian", you are some sect or another.
Like you said, the different sects are caused by different interpretations of the Bible, everyone has their own interpretation and they gather with those who have similar interpretations.

Generally those how refuse to give their denomination are from very cultish groups. It's not that they don't have a denomination, it's that it's part of the cult-like behavior to not say what you are knowing you won't get more members if you do.

Ummm, okay. Whatever you say.

I belong to a Baptist church because I believe they interpret the bible most appropriately. However, I am a Christian first and foremost. I could care less whether I am of a Baptist or Protestant label.

Like I said, there are no denominations in the bible. You are a believer and, therefore, a Christian or you are not. The denomination label is useless IMHO.

New

i_arch_360
March 21st, 2006, 10:15 AM
Like I said, there are no denominations in the bible. You are a believer and, therefore, a Christian or you are not. The denomination label is useless IMHO. New

Amen Brother, You have hit it on the head with your last two posts! :clap2:

toxo
March 21st, 2006, 10:17 AM
Jesus showed us the way the truth and the light.......He did not say it was going to be easy...in fact the road to eternal life was narrow and many willl not find it. He also said you will know his disciplesby what? The love they had for each other(agape). Jesus was Jewish and followed all the Jewish laws.Jesus(Yeshua) told us how to worship HIS Father, In spirit and in Truth, Pilate asked Jesus what is Truth? Jesus just stood there and let Pilate look at him. For the first 300 years after THE CHRIST(not a name, a TITLE) meaning the annointed one of GOD, all the Jewish followers tried to convert Pagans(which means "those of the country") to Jewedism......
The Bible we have today both Roman Catholic and Protestant is not the original version. It was written in Aramaic,, Hebrew, Greek, then translated into Latin........We have lost the original meanings of these words in the translations.......Jesus was not Jesus but Yeshua....or the long version Yehouhsua.....Who knows that for the first 300 years after Christ died no one fought for any side.ALL were pacificist! No one bowed down or even lit a candle to any Human institution......Many were strectched out, pulled apart and eaten by lions why? Because they would not light a candle to the emporer.........The history of the Christian church is a history of the blod of the martyrs......the word "CATHOLIC" means "universal." The jews are not Catholic but yet they were....by nature of the word. The Jewa would not worship any graven image and as far as up to 300-350 worshipped no Cross or anythong made by hands.....It was part of the 10 commandments.......All that changed Whrn Constentine decide to change that in around 310-350AD......there was no Christmas, Easter(Astre) or any Lent before the 3rd or forth century..............ALL Christians were pacifists and none would fight for any country or worship anything made by hands.....Even Yeshua said that"God is a spirit and those that worship HIM must worship in spirit and Truth.".........Who knows what the oldest gospel book is.It is not Mathew, and Pauls books (most of them) were writtten before the Gospels were..Most likely Hebrews, 1&2 Corinthians were written before the synoptic( the 4) gospels........So to get to the root of the NT Read Paul first......and look to say who Paul says Yeshua was. Not God Almighty but the mediator between God and man and a HIGH PRIEST........just a brief over view of the NT and the falacy of the history of what the Emporer and the Nicene Council(years of 320-327) decided......and half the Bishops walked out in disgust....because they could not agree on the doctrine that Constintine wnted the bishops to do........look it up......it is there........
Another note....there was no Angels singing at Christs birth in the Spring of 6BC(when Christ was born. All the original Greek said was, "A Bright Star appeared." How many astrologers were there? No one knows....it does not say.all it says was there was 3 gifts......not how many Magi(short for astrolgers or magicians)..........As I mentoned Yeshua(Jesus told us to worship in "Spirit and Truth."

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 10:22 AM
Let me point out that Catholics, can have Bibles, while yes you don't tote your bible to Mass, it isn't forbidden for a Catholic to ahve a bible.

Next someone asked why do the Catholics pray to Mary....well they pray to her because in their eyes with out her we wouldn't have Jesus. Side: note they also pray to Saints to mediate between them and God. Catholics feel that the Saints are closer to God therefore the hope that by praying to them or in their name they are sending a direct message to God, via a Saint.

Back to the Catholic mass....you don't tote your Bible, to Mass because Catholicism is based on tradition...so the Masses are basically the same....you pray you say hail Mary you kneel you stand your pray...you kneel some more you take Sacrament and it pretty much done the same at every Mass.

Forgive me but its been about 20 some odd years since I've been to Mass...so I may not have it exactly verbatim on the "ceremony'

Children learn about the Bible and the Catholic teaching in Catechism school...this is what some other Christian religions call Bible study/class.

toxo
March 21st, 2006, 10:37 AM
Where in the Bible does it say Mary was a virgin.it does not......Neither in the OT or the NT does the word mean "virgin." the original word "ALMAH" only meant young maiden........no more no less......that same word in Hebrew was used in the OT and NT for a young maiden. The average age of the a young Hebrew wife in Yeshuas (Jesus) day was between 12-15 years old...that is when they became fertile....
In the original Hrbrew translation she was only a an Almah before she conceied not after, And to support this NO JEW EXPECTED THE MESSIAH TO COME BY A MIRACULOUS BIRTH........BUT ONLY BY NATURAL HUMAN CONCEPTION. Do not be fooled by those who say that the Latin words meant the same as Aramaic or Hebrew words.they do not mean the same and/or changed by many scholars thousands of years after they were first written........What is the "term "Eye of the camel "mean when YEHOUSUA mentioned it?

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 10:38 AM
Let me point out that Catholics, can have Bibles, while yes you don't tote your bible to Mass, it isn't forbidden for a Catholic to ahve a bible.

Next someone asked why do the Catholics pray to Mary....well they pray to her because in their eyes with out her we wouldn't have Jesus. Side: note they also pray to Saints to mediate between them and God. Catholics feel that the Saints are closer to God therefore the hope that by praying to them or in their name they are sending a direct message to God, via a Saint.

Back to the Catholic mass....you don't tote your Bible, to Mass because Catholicism is based on tradition...so the Masses are basically the same....you pray you say hail Mary you kneel you stand your pray...you kneel some more you take Sacrament and it pretty much done the same at every Mass.

Forgive me but its been about 20 some odd years since I've been to Mass...so I may not have it exactly verbatim on the "ceremony'

Children learn about the Bible and the Catholic teaching in Catechism school...this is what some other Christian religions call Bible study/class.


IMHO, all this praying to Mary and the Saints and confessing your sins to another man do nothing but take away from the deity of Christ. The bible says that after the ressurection, Jesus went to Heaven and sits at the Right hand of the Father making intercessions for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

IMHO, it is sacrilige to do so. Not even mentioning the whole idolatry thing with all the statues and rosaries, etc. When Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent and the need for the high priest went away....no more need for anyone to make intercession on our behalf.

I believe you pray to God in Jesus name only.

New

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 10:48 AM
New....

Catholics do not worship the Saints as in the way you mean ..... Well at least not any more than those of other Christian religions worship the Pastor/preacher in their congregation....praise him, giving him things in hope that it will put them higher on the pedal stool closer to God himself. Not say all christian that attend church do this with the pastor/preacher...but surely even you can see what I speak of.

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 11:00 AM
OOOOooooo!!!

A FUN ONE!!!! Can I join in on this subject???

Lets start out with the basic beliefs of Christianity (Notice I am NOT picking a denomination).



There are basically four beliefs that have defined Christianity as a religion for nearly 2000 years. From these four beliefs come all of the other teachings and beliefs of Christianity. These beliefs can be briefly summarized as follows:

1. The nature of God is best represented by the doctrine of the Trinity: that there is only one God but within the one God exists three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, and he rose again bodily in victory over death.
3. Man is a sinner in need of salvation, which is made possible by the death of Jesus, and can only be gained by grace through faith.
4. The Bible is the inspired word of God.

Now...

Tithings?? that is an old testiment thing... NOT a new testiment, but Churches sure like to lie to you by making you believe it is in the new testiment!

If One truely believes the Bible, then one truely believes the bible says to bow down, pray to nothing, or worship anything but me (the father of Jesus, or God).

Thus Hail mary's? That is worshiping and bowing down to a statue of something other than God and his savior sun. I don't care HOW you state it.

No man is holier than another, we are all in sin. Thus using a preacher to "pray through"? be for real. Even in the bible, Jesus taught us how to pray...he was talking to the PEOPLE like you and I.

Thus, my take on Christianity???

The 4 things mentioned above and nothing else. You either believe or not. You can twist, turn, and spew out all the religious rituals you want, but that ain't going to do squat for you. TAke that communion all you want, but it isn't going to get you anywhere. Thus, if your denomination doesn't fit those things, then I would think twice about it. I don't care what denomination you are from.

Oh Tithing??? Time is money... Don't beleive me? try taking off work for 1 year and tell me how much it costs you. Thus, if you help in a Church, or do other things that help folks with Christ, that is costing you time and money. (lets see the churches argue on that one).

Personally, I would like to see taxes be brought forth on all churches and property. I would like to see most chuches go bankrupt. Then I can sit back and say "Churches are for teaching people, not for being made into a business that collects money to spend as it wants". Then, maybe, the churches will go back to what they used to be at the time of Christ.... Meetings in homes, buildings, and other places. And the purpose of these meetings will not be about collecting money for wages and taxes, but about learning about Christ and what he did...

Ouch!!

Dwayne

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 11:03 AM
New....

Catholics do not worship the Saints as in the way you mean ..... Well at least not any more than those of other Christian religions worship the Pastor/preacher in their congregation....praise him, giving him things in hope that it will put them higher on the pedal stool closer to God himself. Not say all christian that attend church do this with the pastor/preacher...but surely even you can see what I speak of.

Well, I am kind of a purist in that I don't worship a pastor or give them anything to get on a higher pedestal or more favor with God. I just don't believe in that. Worshipping any man is a bad idea because we are all fallable.

The way I believe it is that I have a direct line to God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I don't need a priest or a saint to make intercessions for me any longer because Jesus took that role when he ascended to heaven. I can pray right to God the Father in Heaven.

I understand how the Catholics feel the way they do...sort of a mix of old and new testament. However, like I said, putting anyone between yourself and God....be it a pastor, saint, or Mary.....I think that is a bad idea and false doctrine. That is my opinion and I definitely don't want to go splaying anyone's beliefs.

I would point Catholics to First Timothy Chapter 2 verses 1-5:
1: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2: For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.....

One God, one mediator and that is Jesus.

New

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 11:19 AM
Dewayne....so you don't see the "laying on hands" as a way a person prays through them to receive healing as praying to Mary or Saint Christopher? Cause I do see a correlation in it being the same...but that's my take:wink:


Next.....Churches are businesses...look they have church treasures, secretaries, ect....heck some of the Church payrolls are bigger then some small corporations:rolleyes:

I like your idea of them paying taxes....After all didn't Jesus say: pay Caesar what is Caesars?

Doc
March 21st, 2006, 11:27 AM
I would point Catholics to First Timothy Chapter 2 verses 1-5:
1: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2: For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.....

One God, one mediator and that is Jesus.

New

Pointing Catholics to the Bible is like giving a blind man a pair of glasses.

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 11:28 AM
OOOOooooo!!!

A FUN ONE!!!! Can I join in on this subject???

Lets start out with the basic beliefs of Christianity (Notice I am NOT picking a denomination).



Now...

Tithings?? that is an old testiment thing... NOT a new testiment, but Churches sure like to lie to you by making you believe it is in the new testiment!

If One truely believes the Bible, then one truely believes the bible says to bow down, pray to nothing, or worship anything but me (the father of Jesus, or God).

Thus Hail mary's? That is worshiping and bowing down to a statue of something other than God and his savior sun. I don't care HOW you state it.

No man is holier than another, we are all in sin. Thus using a preacher to "pray through"? be for real. Even in the bible, Jesus taught us how to pray...he was talking to the PEOPLE like you and I.

Thus, my take on Christianity???

The 4 things mentioned above and nothing else. You either believe or not. You can twist, turn, and spew out all the religious rituals you want, but that ain't going to do squat for you. TAke that communion all you want, but it isn't going to get you anywhere. Thus, if your denomination doesn't fit those things, then I would think twice about it. I don't care what denomination you are from.

Oh Tithing??? Time is money... Don't beleive me? try taking off work for 1 year and tell me how much it costs you. Thus, if you help in a Church, or do other things that help folks with Christ, that is costing you time and money. (lets see the churches argue on that one).

Personally, I would like to see taxes be brought forth on all churches and property. I would like to see most chuches go bankrupt. Then I can sit back and say "Churches are for teaching people, not for being made into a business that collects money to spend as it wants". Then, maybe, the churches will go back to what they used to be at the time of Christ.... Meetings in homes, buildings, and other places. And the purpose of these meetings will not be about collecting money for wages and taxes, but about learning about Christ and what he did...

Ouch!!

Dwayne


Man, you have a lot of anger stored up! :D

I have studied this a little and I do strive to tithe even now. The bible is clear on giving and helping the poor, etc. But I do agree that we have little new testament verses on tithing. Giving according to your portion and doing so cheerfully, yes. Tithing, no.

I tend to agree that a certain very large church that I will not mention seems to have itself intertwined in money. Some of the decisions they make seem completely bent on monetary effects rather than what is clearly right to do.

Many seem to use their love of money as a crutch to keep them out of church or give them a reason to hate church. I say come to mine.

My preacher believes in tithing but rarely even mentions it....maybe once on five years. In fact, when he did mention it he said "if money or giving or tithing is going to keep you from coming to the Lord and getting saved or coming to church, keep it".

I have heard of some churches requiring members to give their W2's to the secretary and prove their tithing. I say that is an abomination and that church is a farce. It follows that the preacher lives a life I would aspire to ever have and drives fine cars and has a large home.

Point is....salvation is the most important issue at hand. Giving, tithing, or not isn't anything that will keep you from God or heaven.

I try to tithe because of what we do with the money. We pay utilities and the rest gets used for God. How you ask? Well, we support many missionaries to foreign countries. Most notably, one in Russia and one in Brazil who are my two favorites. In Russia, it is an orphanage that takes in children that have been abandoned because their parents can't afford to raise them. They are homeless kids. They are fed, clothed, given a warm bed, and taught about God. The Brazil mission is for kids who are deaf and accordingly are thrown out by their parents. Same deal...food, home, school, and God. I give (although sometimes not as cheerfully as I should because I am worried about my finances although I never have been late with a bill and live quite well) because I am commanded to help the poor....be it in spirit or in finance.

New

Doc
March 21st, 2006, 11:29 AM
OOOOooooo!!!

A FUN ONE!!!! Can I join in on this subject???

Lets start out with the basic beliefs of Christianity (Notice I am NOT picking a denomination).



Now...

Tithings?? that is an old testiment thing... NOT a new testiment, but Churches sure like to lie to you by making you believe it is in the new testiment!

If One truely believes the Bible, then one truely believes the bible says to bow down, pray to nothing, or worship anything but me (the father of Jesus, or God).

Thus Hail mary's? That is worshiping and bowing down to a statue of something other than God and his savior sun. I don't care HOW you state it.

No man is holier than another, we are all in sin. Thus using a preacher to "pray through"? be for real. Even in the bible, Jesus taught us how to pray...he was talking to the PEOPLE like you and I.

Thus, my take on Christianity???

The 4 things mentioned above and nothing else. You either believe or not. You can twist, turn, and spew out all the religious rituals you want, but that ain't going to do squat for you. TAke that communion all you want, but it isn't going to get you anywhere. Thus, if your denomination doesn't fit those things, then I would think twice about it. I don't care what denomination you are from.

Oh Tithing??? Time is money... Don't beleive me? try taking off work for 1 year and tell me how much it costs you. Thus, if you help in a Church, or do other things that help folks with Christ, that is costing you time and money. (lets see the churches argue on that one).

Personally, I would like to see taxes be brought forth on all churches and property. I would like to see most chuches go bankrupt. Then I can sit back and say "Churches are for teaching people, not for being made into a business that collects money to spend as it wants". Then, maybe, the churches will go back to what they used to be at the time of Christ.... Meetings in homes, buildings, and other places. And the purpose of these meetings will not be about collecting money for wages and taxes, but about learning about Christ and what he did...

Ouch!!

Dwayne
We've got a Bingo on the Floor!
:clap2: :thumb:

affe22
March 21st, 2006, 11:39 AM
Personally, I would like to see taxes be brought forth on all churches and property. I would like to see most chuches go bankrupt. Then I can sit back and say "Churches are for teaching people, not for being made into a business that collects money to spend as it wants". Then, maybe, the churches will go back to what they used to be at the time of Christ.... Meetings in homes, buildings, and other places. And the purpose of these meetings will not be about collecting money for wages and taxes, but about learning about Christ and what he did...

So, churches that use their money to sponser missions, do community outreach and put on events so that it is easier to bring people aren't doing God's will? All those things take money to do and it has to come from somewhere. I would think that someone who gives money freely from their paycheck every month is much less attached or controlled by it then someone that sits there and says that all churches want are money and they never do anything good with it and refuse to give anything. I don't think you have to give all of it to the church directly but 10% isn't much out of a paycheck to give to groups doing good work. You should also volunteer time to devote to such things also.

BTW, There already are church movements that meet in homes and buildings that solely devote their time to learning. Heck, in most large congregations you are so against there are smaller groups that do that too.

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 11:42 AM
Hello Buckster,

Buckster>>Dewayne....so you don't see the "laying on hands" as a way a person prays through them to receive healing as praying to Mary or Saint Christopher? <<

No, I don't. I see that as an "I feel better" because of this ritual. There are people who *think* they can heal through their so-called hands.... BS... When the last apostle died... that died. God does what HE wants, on HIS time.

My favorite hipe is when Christians use the saying "Through Christ, all things are possible", or "If you only believe in Christ, you wishes will be granted"... I say BS... That is exactly like telling a dying person, or a person in a wheel chair "You didn't have enough faith in Christ, that is the reason why you are, or cant....(finish the sentence).

Believing in Christ only guarantees you one thing... A seat in heaven. Nothing more, nothing less. We all will have ups and downs. If we truely want to be like Christ, we will want to act our best like him. Sometimes this is mighty tough!... Sometimes it may seem like everyone is against us. But I am a very blunt and outright person. What you read is exactly how I feel. You will not have to "guess" about me. I will reFUSE to beat around the bush, and I will also refuse to bend to "peer" preassure. I have been called a non-Christian many times. But I find it ironic, they cannot refute me. Especially preachers... they are the fun ones. I just keep on asking "Show me in the Bible where Jesus said to ..." and they cannot. They stampper around and make excuses.

Buckster>>Cause I do see a correlation in it being the same...but that's my take <<

Your take is VERY important Buckster. It is your opinion, and *everyones* opinion is important. What is *most* important of *any* opinion, is the ability to back it up.

Buckster>>Next.....Churches are businesses...look they have church treasures, secretaries, ect....heck some of the Church payrolls are bigger then some small corporations

I like your idea of them paying taxes....After all didn't Jesus say: pay Caesar what is Caesars?<<

Thats how I look at it Buckster....What is church supposed to be??? a business evading taxes? or a group of people wanting to learn about Christ? How did the earlier churches exist??? Did they not meet in basements and homes? In places other than tax-free sheltered buildings?

Just my 2 cents!

Dwayne (make it 3 sense)

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 11:51 AM
Being a Christian guarantees you nothing except a place in heaven.

The writers of the bible were largely martyred which I anticipate was pretty bad.

It is odd that people get themselves in all kinds of situations--usually of their own doing--and then point a finger at God and say "how could you let this happen"?

Being a Christian doesn't guarantee you anything and sometimes guarantees you a worse life than the heethens.

New

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 11:54 AM
Hello NewArcher,


New>>Man, you have a lot of anger stored up! <<

No my friend... I have only laid the cards on the table, to where *YOU* and everyone else knows exact where I come from. I don't wany to beat around the bush and play "If I say this, the Christians will oust me". (believe me, this has happened many times <g>).

New>> Giving according to your portion and doing so cheerfully, yes. Tithing, no.<<

Bingo... doing so cheerfully!...

New>>I tend to agree that a certain very large church that I will not mention seems to have itself intertwined in money. Some of the decisions they make seem completely bent on monetary effects rather than what is clearly right to do.<<

Want to hear a good one??? We have a BIG baptist church (major one in Wichita Ks, that accepts credit cards... Talk about promoting wrongful debt...!

New >>Many seem to use their love of money as a crutch to keep them out of church or give them a reason to hate church. I say come to mine.<<

New, I think you live next to me... My church is like yours (or it seems).
Our church was founded upon 3 things..

1. Not to preach about money.
2. No dress code (come as you are).
3. Music to be modern.

They went out to the community and asked the people who didn't go to church, why? These things rang out. We even drink pop and coffee during the service.... Our membership is 1000 people now.


New>>I have heard of some churches requiring members to give their W2's to the secretary and prove their tithing. I say that is an abomination and that church is a farce. It follows that the preacher lives a life I would aspire to ever have and drives fine cars and has a large home.<<

Yes!... I know exactly what you are talking about!...they have them here in my city... unbelievable...Suckers... all of them... and the preacher has them right where he wants them! and THAT is SAD! This also helps support my hypotheses that "The more religious you get, the dumber you become".

New>>Point is....salvation is the most important issue at hand. Giving, tithing, or not isn't anything that will keep you from God or heaven.<<

We have a lot in common....


Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 11:56 AM
Dewayne>


No, I don't. I see that as an "I feel better" because of this ritual. There are people who *think* they can heal through their so-called hands.... BS... When the last apostle died... that died. God does what HE wants, on HIS time.

We are on the same page just reading it different...LOL...the Hail Mary pray is a ritual along with the rosary. Yes, it does make the Catholics feel better to hold and say the rosary and the prays that go with the ritual.



Churches...go by the "not for Profit" well they do good work....blah blah blah...well so do some very few but some Businesses do good work. So why not say they should fall under the not for profit no pay taxes....guise? If all you have to do is good....well heck sign me up cause I feel I do good all the time...okay 90% of the time so I should not ahve to pay taxes...right?

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 12:05 PM
Hello Affe,

Affe>>So, churches that use their money to sponser missions, do community outreach and put on events so that it is easier to bring people aren't doing God's will? All those things take money to do and it has to come from somewhere. I would think that someone who gives money freely from their paycheck every month is much less attached or controlled by it then someone that sits there and says that all churches want are money and they never do anything good with it and refuse to give anything. I don't think you have to give all of it to the church directly but 10% isn't much out of a paycheck to give to groups doing good work.<<

If you want to be a missionary, maybe you should move to the places and live just like them... Just like Christ did. Quit your job and go. If you believe in Christ that much, you will *know* that Christ will provide for you when you get there. Then you will be spreading the word, helping the cause, and not spending anyones money but the money you will be earning there. Remember? Christ walked among the people spreading the word. The people around him *probably* provided this essentials when necessary. I am sure you can get a job during the week to provide for your essentials, and preach every saturday and sunday...(under a tent, tree, or in a cave).

effa>>You should also volunteer time to devote to such things also.<<

I have, and no longer do so. Your Cleo is failing you on this one. :wink:

effa>>BTW, There already are church movements that meet in homes and buildings that solely devote their time to learning. Heck, in most large congregations you are so against there are smaller groups that do that too.<<

I am against churches that lie to their congregation for money, for tithing, for emotional control of the people. THAT is what I am against.

Dwayne

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 12:07 PM
Hello Buckster,

B>>well heck sign me up cause I feel I do good all the time...okay 90% of the time so I should not ahve to pay taxes...right?<<

<chuckle> When you find one, make sure you sign me up with you! I will do likewise for you. :wink:

Dwayne

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 12:12 PM
DwayneR,

Not sure what church did what to you but someone must have peed in your wheaties somewhere! :D

My church holds no emotional anything over me. I go, read the bible, sing songs, pray for each other, hear preaching that extols vitruous living, and we go home. Now some people have a real problem with that vituous living because it gets in the way of their Saturday night plans. I try to live the way I should and even for me that label is hard to attain. But we are all fallable and can't completely live virtuous lives.

Good luck working through whatever issues you have with churches!

New

pabuck
March 21st, 2006, 12:19 PM
Ahhhhh... The age-old question. When is a Christian not a Christian? When they're Catholic.


Catholics also believe you may partake in the Holy Sacrament only on Sunday. Many Protestants do not share this restriction.


:

man you are way off.....Do you even go to church??? Catholics have mass and receive communion everyday....how often do protestants have communion, just when 'they' feel it is necessary....

affe22
March 21st, 2006, 12:38 PM
If you believe in Christ that much, you will *know* that Christ will provide for you when you get there. Then you will be spreading the word, helping the cause, and not spending anyones money but the money you will be earning there. Remember? Christ walked among the people spreading the word. The people around him *probably* provided this essentials when necessary.

I don't want to be a full time missonary but I am glad there are people like them out there and understand they need to be monetarily supported so they can devote all of their time to ministry, not just standing around somewhere preaching on the weekends. Don't you think that Christ just might provide for these people through other believers who give money to support their work?

The way I see it, supporting missions is providing for their essentials when necessary. It is kind of how Christians are supposed to treat one another.


I have, and no longer do so. Your Cleo is failing you on this one. :wink:

So I guess there are really bigger issues here...


I am against churches that lie to their congregation for money, for tithing, for emotional control of the people. THAT is what I am against.

Well, I haven't really gone to any of those churches, so I guess I am lucky.

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 12:43 PM
Hello New,

New>>Not sure what church did what to you but someone must have peed in your wheaties somewhere! <<

Darn!!! I thought that was my Mountain Dew!!!:confused:

New>>My church holds no emotional anything over me.<<

I never said it did, but you would be surprised at the number of churches that do this very thing... If I were to guess... maybe 95 percent of them? (this is just a off the top guess, but realize, I live in the Bible Belt of the USA). I have seen and been through a lot of horse manure around here.

New>>Now some people have a real problem with that vituous living because it gets in the way of their Saturday night plans.<<

That is another issue I have...Saturday night? Sunday Night? Who cares? There is no absolute law in the new testiment that says it *must* be XYZ night.

Sabbath was made as an day of rest in the old testiment. Jesus made a remark...

Mark 2:27: Sabbath was made for man, and not man made for sabbath.

Sabbath has been changed by the church to accomidate its pews. To make excuses of what it really meant. Even Jesus did "work" on the Sabbath. In the OT it was a day of rest, made for man. Just like God and his making of the world. What man plans on doing that day is up to him. I am sure god didn't play poker, water ski, snow ski, or play on the internet, but he probably did something fun to him that was relaxing.


New>>I try to live the way I should and even for me that label is hard to attain. But we are all fallable and can't completely live virtuous lives.<<

That is it in a nutshell...

New>>Good luck working through whatever issues you have with churches!<<

Thanks bud! I just place the cards on the table. No short punches, no beating around the bush. You and everyone else knows exactly where I stand. If it ruffles your feathers, I would like to know why (if you want to talk about it), and do not be upset if we disagree on the "Why".

Dwayne

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM
Dwayne,

No, I wasn't talking about the Sabbath, I was talking about Saturday night honkey tonkin and ugly bumping! :D

Overall, my experiences at church have been pretty much like I mentioned to you. No bad experiences at all.

Now it would be pertinent to point out the fact that I belong to an independent Baptist church that doesn't subscribe to any associations or look to committees to tell us what is right and wrong and what to do or not. I think that can get problematic.

As for the good luck thing, that was supposed to be humorous....no implied meanings. Don't give up on churches totally....there is a lot to be gained by belonging to one.

New

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 12:57 PM
Hello Affe,

Affe>>I am glad there are people like them out there and understand they need to be monetarily supported so they can devote all of their time to ministry, not just standing around somewhere preaching on the weekends. Don't you think that Christ just might provide for these people through other believers who give money to support their work?<<

And I am also glad that there are people out there that enjoy missionary work too.

I was once at a very large Baptist church...There was a kid, just out of High school, and during his earlier years, he wanted to become a missionary. Well heck, tell me ONE person who doesn't want to become a missionary in their lives at least once! He applied to a crazy missionary school in Wisconsin? and was rejected because he owed money on his car. One of the prerequisits is debt free. At the same time, he was offered (more than once) a extremely prominate job at the city he was living in...for a good salary. This man chipped in and said "That is SATAN working against you!". I immediately chipped in and said "BS, you wouldn't know Satan or God if he showed up in person" That can be GOD opening up a much BETTER door for him in his life.... imagine a 40,000 dollar a year job, that could pay for a 4 year college? bring money into the church, and help support himself for once?
Needless to say, I was very quickly "casted out". Imagine that...


Dwayne>>I am against churches that lie to their congregation for money, for tithing, for emotional control of the people. THAT is what I am against. <<

affe>>Well, I haven't really gone to any of those churches, so I guess I am lucky.<<

I truely hope you are correct...everyone that I know of that says this, usually finds out differently... They are blind to themselves.

I can only say "Show me in the bible where Jesus says....." And if you cannot show me without skewing, then there is a problem...:wink:

Tithing is one <g>
Worshiping idols other than God (father of Jesus). <g>
Using men to pray through
Laws that people support (Moral laws).
just a few...


Dwayne

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 01:12 PM
Hello New,

New>>No, I wasn't talking about the Sabbath, I was talking about Saturday night honkey tonkin and ugly bumping! <<

Darn... I have been caught...

New>>Now it would be pertinent to point out the fact that I belong to an independent Baptist church that doesn't subscribe to any associations or look to committees to tell us what is right and wrong and what to do or not. I think that can get problematic.<<

Not pertinent at all... Every denomination has some kinds of Churches that are good and bad in my books. I happen to have gone through a few churches in my life, the latest ones were baptist and non-denominational. Thus, I can speak about those from the latest experiences. If I could mention names, I would... just to point out the trash those churches represent.

New>>As for the good luck thing, that was supposed to be humorous....no implied meanings. Don't give up on churches totally....there is a lot to be gained by belonging to one.<<

I realized that NewArcher, I probably should have acknowledged that first of all, but I failed to do so. Sorry. My bad. But I did want to point out, that I could talk about a lot of different things...if someone really wants to do so...But in doing so, I wanted those lurkers to understand that the disagreeance is not held against them, and that sometimes religion can be pretty hard on people. Because of this "hardness" many folks cannot truely discuss the important fine details that stirs their emotions.

Dwayne

i_arch_360
March 21st, 2006, 02:04 PM
I am sure god didn't play poker, water ski, snow ski, or play on the internet, but he probably did something fun to him that was relaxing.

Wonder how he feels about archery......:noidea:

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 02:13 PM
Hello I arch,

I>>Wonder how he feels about archery<<

Don't know, but I asked God, and he said this:

Cupid loves archery...

Dwayne

i_arch_360
March 21st, 2006, 02:16 PM
Whew, I guess he approves then :wink:
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, you all have really got me thinking (well maybe not ALL of you) I really like the discussion here though.

toxo
March 21st, 2006, 02:20 PM
Who here would die for their beliefs...........Have their heads cut off or be hung upside down.....would you? Read Jeremiah.........Read Paul Read Rev...if you dare..........Could you do that? Tough questions.........tough answers.........What would you do? HMMMM? toxo

mttc08
March 21st, 2006, 02:21 PM
ummmmmmm.....what religion was John the Baptist??........:confused:

Engelsmung
March 21st, 2006, 02:23 PM
The simple answer is that Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, who believe that he is the messiah; and Catholics are one of the many Christian denominations/churches(actually the original one). As an former Agnostic/Deist converted to Methodism, I don't feel the need to argue over the various points of different theologies that have resulted in all the various denominations. I'm just glad to finally be on the right team.:zip:

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 02:33 PM
Hello Toxo,

T>>Who here would die for their beliefs....<<

I would.

Dwayne

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 02:37 PM
Wonder how he feels about archery......:noidea:


Well, I think this pretty much answers THAT question:

Genesis 27:3
Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

That's one commandment that I can follow to the T! :D

New

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 02:41 PM
Hello Toxo,

T>>Who here would die for their beliefs....<<

I would.

Dwayne


Are you taking volunteers to help? :D :eek:

New

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 02:44 PM
Hello Engel,

Engle>>The simple answer is that Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, who believe that he is the messiah; and Catholics are one of the many Christian denominations/churches(actually the original one).<<

And now you know the crux of the whole topic of this thread. Are Catholics Christians or not?

Catholics have *many* rituals that are man-made, and have nothing to do with Jesus or God. They bow down to a idol of mary.. they hail mary... they worship mary... they pray through man and/or ask a man to tell them how they are forgiven. Their entire church is full of BS. And MUCH of the BS is against the words of the Bible. (as I have already pointed out).

Christanity means the 4 things I listed earlier. *IF* you truely believe those 4 things, then why in the heck are you going against the Bibles words and worshiping a statue of Mary? Mary is NOT a god, is NOT anything but a person like you and I. Only difference is, she was blessed by God to be the mother of Jesus. And what a blessing!

Dwayne

michihunter
March 21st, 2006, 02:45 PM
The answer to the original question is : All Catholics are Christian, but all Christians aren't Catholic. Christianity is, as was stated earlier, a belief in Jesus and His teachings. The fact that His teachings are recorded, and therefore interpreted, is the reason that there are Catholics and Protestants. You can't get more than two people to agree on any happenstance much less something that took place thousands of years ago. :wink:

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 02:53 PM
Hello New,

New>>Are you taking volunteers to help?<<

Are you willing to part with your bows???:tongue:


Dwayne

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 03:00 PM
Hello Michihunter,

MH>>The answer to the original question is : All Catholics are Christian, but all Christians aren't Catholic. Christianity is, as was stated earlier, a belief in Jesus and His teachings.<<

I tend to disagree. Anyone can belive that Jesus existed. Anyone can beleve his teachings and how good they are. But to believe that heaven only exists through his death??? Not likely for many folks who believe in Christ.

I can say:

I believe in Mohammad, I believe he is a prophet of 800 years ago. I believe that he wrote the Koran. But does that mean I believe what he wrote is true? Nope... I can't say anymore, for I will be breaking rules of this website.

Dwayne

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 03:22 PM
Hello Engel,

Engle>>The simple answer is that Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, who believe that he is the messiah; and Catholics are one of the many Christian denominations/churches(actually the original one).<<

And now you know the crux of the whole topic of this thread. Are Catholics Christians or not?

Catholics have *many* rituals that are man-made, and have nothing to do with Jesus or God. They bow down to a idol of mary.. they hail mary... they worship mary... they pray through man and/or ask a man to tell them how they are forgiven. Their entire church is full of BS. And MUCH of the BS is against the words of the Bible. (as I have already pointed out).

Christanity means the 4 things I listed earlier. *IF* you truely believe those 4 things, then why in the heck are you going against the Bibles words and worshiping a statue of Mary? Mary is NOT a god, is NOT anything but a person like you and I. Only difference is, she was blessed by God to be the mother of Jesus. And what a blessing!

Dwayne


Here is a very good read on Catholicism......

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm

I didn't know a lot about all of this. I knew that they thought you could be prayed out of purgatory by people on Earth after your death....but.

The bible clearly refutes that when it says that if you die without Christ in hell you will lift your eyes.

Again, I personally am not bashing Catholics but some of this stuff doesn't jive with what I believe.

New

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 03:25 PM
Hello New,

New>>Are you taking volunteers to help?<<

Are you willing to part with your bows???:tongue:


Dwayne

Maybe one or two arrows but not my precious Trykon! :D

New

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 03:30 PM
Again, I personally am not bashing Catholics but some of this stuff doesn't jive with what I believe.

Now Newarcher....not bashing you or anything:wink: but I bet ya I could find some things in your Christian views that don't jive with my Biblical interpretations either:tongue:

I find you statement that you have to say "not bashing Catholics" but.....

very funny....kinda reminds me of those who have to tell me they are "a good Christian"

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 03:38 PM
Buckster,

Nah, I am not bashing catholics. The things in that article simply do not correlate with the bible I read.

I am not saying anything bad about Catholics other than we disagree on some items and it is not for me to say who is saved and who is not.

That's all. You have yours and I have mine but I can refute many things in that article with bible that contradicts them. So then you gotta decide which you believe. I believe the bible.

New

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 03:47 PM
New.....

I see where you are coming from....

Just like the fact that some of the Baptist in my area are so vehemently against drinking alcohol and say that its a sin. I ask them to show me in the bible and they can't...they just say to me well preacher so and so preached on this last week and I believe him.

I say to them read the bible yourself don't take his word for it understand the bible.! But of course that falls on deaf ears

VorTexan
March 21st, 2006, 04:00 PM
newarcher has not only read the book but seems to be enlightened to it's meaning. When he's out hunting he knows what's going on. Pretty simple when taken with childlike faith. We often try to overcomplicate things and make our own (manmade rules) just like the pharasees. John 3:16 is as simple as it gets. As far as what is right and wrong, find him and you will know whether or not it is ok for YOU to get plastered or any other question you can come up with. Good stuff new, thanks for being on the site.

Selil
March 21st, 2006, 04:01 PM
Where in the Bible does it say Mary was a virgin.it does not......Neither in the OT or the NT does the word mean "virgin." the original word "ALMAH" only meant young maiden........no more no less......that same word in Hebrew was used in the OT and NT for a young maiden. The average age of the a young Hebrew wife in Yeshuas (Jesus) day was between 12-15 years old...that is when they became fertile....
In the original Hrbrew translation she was only a an Almah before she conceied not after, And to support this NO JEW EXPECTED THE MESSIAH TO COME BY A MIRACULOUS BIRTH........BUT ONLY BY NATURAL HUMAN CONCEPTION. Do not be fooled by those who say that the Latin words meant the same as Aramaic or Hebrew words.they do not mean the same and/or changed by many scholars thousands of years after they were first written........What is the "term "Eye of the camel "mean when YEHOUSUA mentioned it?



TOXO ROCKS

They can ignore you, but you did your research.

The gospel of Q? Lost testaments?

How about Jesus was a liberal against big government and taxation and fought the bastions of his religion and helped the poor and needy instead of blaming them for their inability to rise above their station in life? Oooh wait maybe a good discussion on the fact Jesus was a pacifist who thought violence negated the rights of war? This could be good. Agree or disagree with you I think you did good Toxo.


TOXO ROCKS

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 04:05 PM
New.....

I see where you are coming from....

Just like the fact that some of the Baptist in my area are so vehemently against drinking alcohol and say that its a sin. I ask them to show me in the bible and they can't...they just say to me well preacher so and so preached on this last week and I believe him.

I say to them read the bible yourself don't take his word for it understand the bible.! But of course that falls on deaf ears

Buckster,

I can give you any number of passages about drinking alcohol. Now there seems to be some argument about wine versus strong drink but I don't make a distinction. Both cause the same effect but get you there quicker. I will get the list out of my bible if I can find it and send them to you.

New

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 04:10 PM
newarcher has not only read the book but seems to be enlightened to it's meaning. When he's out hunting he knows what's going on. Pretty simple when taken with childlike faith. We often try to overcomplicate things and make our own (manmade rules) just like the pharasees. John 3:16 is as simple as it gets. As far as what is right and wrong, find him and you will know whether or not it is ok for YOU to get plastered or any other question you can come up with. Good stuff new, thanks for being on the site.

Why thank you....usually I get berated on here! :D

About what is right and wrong....Paul wrote in Romans about grey area things that may not be considered sinful to you but might derail another Christian. I think it was in context of selling and eating meat that was offered as a sacrifice at the temple. There isn't a verse that says it is wrong but if it causes a brother to stumble, don't do it for it is sin.

I just love that passage in Luke because it is very simple and verified by Jesus. Who can argue with THAT? No one can argue that the thief was prayed out of purgatory or that he was baptised....I doubt the Roman soldiers who broke their legs cared about giving them their last rights. He did exactly what the bible said and made it (albeit with smoke smell on his clothes!).

New

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 04:15 PM
Buckster,

I can give you any number of passages about drinking alcohol. Now there seems to be some argument about wine versus strong drink but I don't make a distinction. Both cause the same effect but get you there quicker. I will get the list out of my bible if I can find it and send them to you.

New

New...what you will be able to give me is that "drunkenness is a sin" but not take a drink of alcohol. I know what the bible says about alcohol...as I ahve read the bible. You can interpret your way and I will go by what I read in the bible.


The gospel of Q? Lost testaments?

I suppose now we have to discuss the book on Enoch

newarcher
March 21st, 2006, 04:30 PM
Buckster,

You have a certain point in that drinking some and getting drunk are two different things. Some believe that social drinking is okay but I do not. Some believe Jesus drank wine, I don't think so....I think it was non-fermented grape juice. Where do you draw the line for simply partaking and then getting to the point of drunkenness? Is it when you get a buzz or only when you stumble or when you can't drive? We all know that as you drink more, your judgement lapses and some don't even think they are drunk. So once you start drinking how do you know when to stop so it isn't a sin?

Just knowing the suffering and turmoil that alcohol has rained down upon the earth via its various forms of dereliction (rapes, robbery, child abuse, DUI deaths, poverty, etc.), I just don't see how it could be considered okay by God.

As for partaking versus drunkenness, I would say that Provebs 20:1 is pretty clear as is Habakkuk 2:15.

Again, I am not denouncing you for drinking and that is your conviction. But at the same time I can't say it is correct because I feel differently. Again, neither position will keep either of us from heaven. There have been days and nights where I would have loved to go get toasted--kids will do that to you! :D

New



Here is a list of them:
# Forbidden.
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

# Caution against.
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

# Is a work of the flesh.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

# Is debasing.
Isaiah 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

# Is inflaming.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

# Overcharges the heart.
Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

# Takes away the heart.
Hosea 4:11 *****dom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

# LEADS TO

* Poverty.
Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
Proverbs 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

* Strife.
Proverbs 23:29-30 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

* Woe and sorrow.
Proverbs 23:29-30 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

* Error.
Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

* Contempt of God's works.
Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

* Scorning.
Hosea 7:5 In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners.

* Rioting and wantonness.
Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

# The wicked addicted to.
Daniel 5:1-4 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein. Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.

# False teachers often addicted to.
Isaiah 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

# Folly of yielding to.
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

# Avoid those given to.
Proverbs 23:20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

# DENUNCIATIONS AGAINST

* Those given to.
Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isaiah 28:1-3 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

# Those who encourage.
Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

# Excludes from heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

# Punishment of.
Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Joel 1:5-6 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

# Exemplified.
Noah,
Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Nabal,
1 Samuel 25:36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light.

Uriah,
2 Samuel 11:13 And when David had called him, he did eat and drink before him; and he made him drunk: and at even he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but went not down to his house.

Elah,
1 Kings 16:9-10 And his servant Zimri, captain of half his chariots, conspired against him, as he was in Tirzah, drinking himself drunk in the house of Arza steward of his house in Tirzah. And Zimri went in and smote him, and killed him, in the twenty and seventh year of Asa king of Judah, and reigned in his stead.

Benhadad,
1 Kings 20:16 And they went out at noon. But Benhadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings that helped him.

Belshazzar,
Daniel 5:4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.

Corinthians,
1 Corinthians 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

EASTON94
March 21st, 2006, 05:15 PM
Someone tell me if this gets out of control, I can't take another 10 page discussion on this topic!! Easton94

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 05:15 PM
Hello NewArcher,

New>>Again, I am not denouncing you for drinking and that is your conviction. But at the same time I can't say it is correct because I feel differently.<<

You have brought up some good points here. I think you *both* agree that the Bible does NOT say it is wrong to drink. But I think that both of you agree that *over indulgence* is the key element on the situation.

Now lies the problem, What does one call over indulgence? Is it a sin, yeah, I would say so. Is it wrong to drink and not over indulge? No. I would say not.

Thus, over indulgence lies the problem. Where is the cutoff point? For some, just drinking may be too much. For others, a beer or two is fine. But there is some point that we all agree, our focus is changed or corrupted by alcohol.

New>> Again, neither position will keep either of us from heaven.<<

Excellent point. I agree.


Here is a point to ponder. God has always destroyed those who worship idols, punished them, or something. Idols are Gods ultimate pet peeve. An Idol means a person believes another "God" exists, or "God-like" thing exists. And Idol that does not represent God or Christ tells God that he is #2, and that idol is #1. When there is no other God other than God himself, Jesus Christ (his son), and the Holy Spirit that comes over us when we are baptised, how in the world can *anyone* bow down to another idol other than God Himself? And those who bow down in front of Mary? MARY? what does that really say? I don't care what excuses you use...it says one thing.

Now, how can *any* Christian bow down to another statue that is not God? Then, how can *any* Christian have so much faith in man, that they have to wait until a puff of white smoke coming from a chimney to designate another Pope? So that they will travel all over the world just to "touch" him, be blessed by him, or whatever? NO MAN (other that Jesus Christ himself) is worthy of such stuff.

Thus, the crux of the topic... Are Catholics Christians? If so, how can they justify their actions in front of God? Or, are the Rituals so imbedded inside their heads, they cannot see the real meaning in the Bible? Thus, you have a Religion that is man controlled, in stead of Christ controlled.

This goes for *any* religion that claims it follows Christ, yet makes up rituals to satisfy and/or control the minds of its followers.

Dwayne

DwayneR
March 21st, 2006, 05:19 PM
Hello Easton,

Easton>>Someone tell me if this gets out of control, I can't take another 10 page discussion on this topic!! Easton94<<

I don't think it is out of control at all. I think both sides understand it is not bashing, but trying to understand *why* people think the way they do.

I look at it like this...

Some people thing Crossbows are not part of archery, others do. They both cast arrows, both can be used for hunting, but yet some say yes, some say no. What is important is *why* they think that, and what does it take to support their statement.

Dwayne

EASTON94
March 21st, 2006, 05:24 PM
Hello Easton,

Easton>>Someone tell me if this gets out of control, I can't take another 10 page discussion on this topic!! Easton94<<

I don't think it is out of control at all. I think both sides understand it is not bashing, but trying to understand *why* people think the way they do.

I look at it like this...

Some people thing Crossbows are not part of archery, others do. They both cast arrows, both can be used for hunting, but yet some say yes, some say no. What is important is *why* they think that, and what does it take to support their statement.

Dwayne

No problem with the discussion, key word in my post was IF!! :wink: IF it gets out of control let me know!! This section was designed for this type of discussion, and this section is one of the things that helps make this site unique...Anyway, let me know if things heat up and I need to break out the fire hose!! with that I will...:bolt: Easton94

BUCKSTER
March 21st, 2006, 07:01 PM
New>

Your not denouncing me for drinking....hmmm the funny thing is I'm not a big alcohol drinker maybe 1 or 2 a year I might have some alcohol...but as Dwayne said it's not sin in the bible till you get drunk.

Moving on

So Dwayne what you are saying is that because Catholics pray to Mary thats idol worship....okay...but for them its not an idol...its the mother of God....so does God then think that they are worshipping an idol of just the mother of Jesus, one of the most important people in the bible?

michihunter
March 21st, 2006, 09:11 PM
Hello Michihunter,

MH>>The answer to the original question is : All Catholics are Christian, but all Christians aren't Catholic. Christianity is, as was stated earlier, a belief in Jesus and His teachings.<<

I tend to disagree. Anyone can belive that Jesus existed. Anyone can beleve his teachings and how good they are. But to believe that heaven only exists through his death??? Not likely for many folks who believe in Christ.

I can say:

I believe in Mohammad, I believe he is a prophet of 800 years ago. I believe that he wrote the Koran. But does that mean I believe what he wrote is true? Nope... I can't say anymore, for I will be breaking rules of this website.

Dwayne


Well I kind of figured you'd disagree. But here it is straight from Webster-

Chris·ti·an·i·ty (krsch-n-t, krst-) KEY

NOUN:

The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Christians as a group; Christendom.
The state or fact of being a Christian.
pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.

Skeptic
March 21st, 2006, 09:48 PM
So Dwayne what you are saying is that because Catholics pray to Mary thats idol worship....okay...but for them its not an idol...its the mother of God....so does God then think that they are worshipping an idol of just the mother of Jesus, one of the most important people in the bible?


Praying to Mary is idol worship! Praying to anyone other than God is idol worship. Why would you pray to anyone other than God?????:confused:

LarryM
March 21st, 2006, 10:09 PM
Praying to Mary is idol worship! Praying to anyone other than God is idol worship. Why would you pray to anyone other than God?????:confused:
No, it doesn't work that way. The way I learned it was that you are asking Mary to carry your prayers to God. It is really no different than asking people on this site to pray on your behalf for a sick or injured loved one.

Selil
March 21st, 2006, 10:18 PM
No, it doesn't work that way. The way I learned it was that you are asking Mary to carry your prayers to God. It is really no different than asking people on this site to pray on your behalf for a sick or injured loved one.

A prayer to Mary by a Catholic is a request for intercession as is a prayer to any saint. It is NOT a violation of the 10 commandments.

toxo
March 21st, 2006, 11:23 PM
Go in front of most Catholic church what do you see? An Idol of MARY.......I dolatry..........pure and simple........you can rationalize anything away but let us go back and read the 10 Commandments again..........New Jerusalem Bible Exodus 20 verses 4-6 "You shall not make yourself a carved image or ANY likenessof ANYTHING in Heaven Above or on the earth beneath or in the waters under the Earth." now let us look at DEUT 4 verses 15-20: "Hence be careful what you do. Since you saw no shape that day at Horeb when YAHWEH spoke to you from the heart of the fire, see that you do not corrupt yourself by making an image of anything whatever: Be it staute of man or woman, or any animal on the earth or of any Bird that flies in the heavens, or of any reptile that crawls on the ground, or any fish in the waters under the earth. When you raise your eyes to Heaven, when you see the sun, the moon or the stars, the entire array of Heaven to not be tempted to worship them and serve them." some how that is pretty clear....Jesus said I came not to destroy the LAW but to Fulfill it." How does one worship Yahweh? Jesus had that answer that also......"You must worship God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH......"God is a SPIRIT and all the heavens can not contain HIM...............How does any "Christian" justify any idol when GOD the father and the SON of GOD say the same thing!!!!!! No idols of ANY KIND are to be used for any thing.......or is the GOD of the BIBLE WRONG? You do not have to justify it to me but the Author of the scriptures you do.....think about that!!!!!!!!1

the natural
March 21st, 2006, 11:58 PM
You are all wrong.....Baptists aren't Christians, Catholics aren't Christians, Protestants aren't Christians, Muslims DEFINITELY aren't Christians.......Christians are Christians.

Denominations are, imho, of the devil and are meant to confuse people and cause division. They resulted from different interpretations of the bible. I don't like the non-drinking stuff in the bible, so I will start my own denomination that allows drinking.

Go to Luke 39 verses 39-43 where Jesus hung on the Cross with two thiefs beside him.

One thief sort of mocked him saying "hey, if you are who you say you are....save yourself and us". The other thief realized who Jesus was and said "Hey, don't mock him....don't your realized who this is? He did nothing wrong and was sinless" and then the thief asked Jesus to just think of him when he got to heaven. Jesus said I will do one better, today you will be with me in paradise.

So there is the entire plan of salvation spelled out.....realize you are a sinner, realize who Jesus is, realize that Jesus was the only sinless man on Earth ever, and accept him on faith. Really pretty simple. This thief didn't get baptised, sprinkled, do any works, ride any bikes, pass out any tracts, etc. He accepted a free gift and JESUS said...not me or man....JESUS said, "you will be with me in paradise today". The entire plan of salvation in a few versus confirmed by Jesus himself......who can argue with that?

Now as for the entire Catholic thing I will just say this. There will be people of all denominations in Heaven. However, the bible clearly states that not everyone who says Lord Lord will get in. The reason? God isn't smoke insurance. You can't say "yeah, I will accept God but only to keep me out of hell but as for the rest of my life I will live it the way I want".

IMHO, the Catholic Church has a problem in that its basic premise is sinning without conscience and saying some prayer to atone for it is wrong. Jesus came to atone for our sins and this methodology seeks to replace the works Jesus did. As Christians, we need to re-establish our relationship with God when we sin and get that sin out of our life but if we accepted the free gift of eternal salvation from God, our sins have already been forgiven. When we are saved, God puts the Holy Spirit in our hearts and minds as a sort of sin thermometer. When we get into sin, the Holy Spirit corrects and convicts us so that we know it is wrong.

I give the example of a person going to a bar. Before getting saved, the person can go to a bar and drink it up and have no conviction that what he/she is doing is wrong. The next day at work, they brag "boy howdy, let me tell you what I did last night". They are proud of it. Once accepting Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit, you can still go to that same bar and do those same things but you should feel out of place and instead of bragging the next day at work, you should feel ashamed.

If you call yourself a Christian and can do wrong and sin (not illegal things or even unethical things that would cause your normal non-Christian conscience to kick in) without feeling conviction, I would check up friend.

I know many Catholics that have told me "this weekend, I am going to go sin up and get drunk and bed as many women as I can because I am planning to go to mass on Monday night and I want to get my money's worth when I atone". That, my friends, is not a Christian....IMHO. On the other hand, I have another Catholic friend who seeks to live as Godly a life as any Baptist I know and I am certain he is a Christian.

That's how I see it and that's the truth about salvation. Take it for what it is worth.

New
if you cant drink why did he turn water into wine

Selil
March 22nd, 2006, 12:07 AM
No idols of ANY KIND are to be used for any thing.......or is the GOD of the BIBLE WRONG? You do not have to justify it to me but the Author of the scriptures you do.....think about that!!!!!!!!1

Quite bluntly I'm not a literalist of the Bible. I don't beat or stone people for adultery, I don't keep slaves, and I refuse to think of God as being vengeful. If you read Marcus Borg “Heart of Christianity” you’ll have a good idea about the differences likely between us. It’s not a criticism on my part of your beliefs but fire and brimstone does not create fear only weary contemplation.

The Bible was written for a particular time and interpreted through out time I’m doing no less with much more information than a country preacher would have had 50 years ago. We could get into which version (NIV, King James, etc.) we are going to discuss too.

I still consider Catholic prayer for intercession to be appropriate worship as they are asking for Mary to help carry their prayer not do the work. Then again I don't believe in proselytizing either. I’ll discuss issues but never tell you to do something within your worship.

the natural
March 22nd, 2006, 12:26 AM
why would you pray tok mary when you can pray to god or jesus and does everyone think that their is no such thing as a preacher, pastor or whatever you want to call them ordained from god.

bowhuntin_kid
March 22nd, 2006, 01:13 AM
Lotta responses. I didn't realize it was so debateable. I thought it was cut and dry, black and white. Guess not.

So I have another question, do you have to attend Church regularly to be a Christian?

I went to a Catholic school all my life, and I'm not sure what my religion is! I do believe in God, and have been baptised, and have had my first communion, and have done reconcilliation. BUT I don't go to church regularly, mostly because I was raised in a family that doesn't. I do wear a cross around my neck, and keep a coin in my pocket everyday to keep God in my life, and remind me of everything he's done for me though.

WHAT AM I?

Myk
March 22nd, 2006, 03:30 AM
Ummm, okay. Whatever you say.

I belong to a Baptist church because I believe they interpret the bible most appropriately. However, I am a Christian first and foremost. I could care less whether I am of a Baptist or Protestant label.

Like I said, there are no denominations in the bible. You are a believer and, therefore, a Christian or you are not. The denomination label is useless IMHO.
I don't care if you listen to a homeless guy preaching out of a cardboard box, you're in a denomination.
There may be no denominations in the Bible but it was translated by a denomination and there are enough totally different interpretations available in it to house a lot of denominations, that is why we have them.
There are probably such differences (even between books like Matthew and John) because they were giving their interpretations and thus preaching their denomination.

If I have my history correct, if you are following the original translation and teachings of the Bible, you are a Catholic.

But I'm bowing out of this. Too hot for me and the time I have available right now. I really only read what I quoted. (Except this which I picked up while skimming my way to the bottom...)


Praying to Mary is idol worship! Praying to anyone other than God is idol worship. Why would you pray to anyone other than God?????
What about Jesus?
How can Jesus sit at the right hand of God if Jesus is God?
How can you only get to God through Jesus if Jesus is God? That's saying you have no way to get to God.
Thus praying to Jesus must be idol worship by your definition.

You want idol worship? Come to my religion and I'll show you idol worship :D

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 07:26 AM
No, it doesn't work that way. The way I learned it was that you are asking Mary to carry your prayers to God. It is really no different than asking people on this site to pray on your behalf for a sick or injured loved one.

Praying for each other is a commandment in the bible....no, not one of the 10. Praying to Mary is not only NOT mentioned in the bible, it is countered:

First Timothy Chapter 2 verses 1-5:
1: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2: For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.....

Sorry, but I think this practice is sacrilige and takes away from the deity of Christ by elevating Mary to a position she neither holds nor deserves.

JMHO,
New

Skeptic
March 22nd, 2006, 08:23 AM
What about Jesus?
How can Jesus sit at the right hand of God if Jesus is God?
How can you only get to God through Jesus if Jesus is God? That's saying you have no way to get to God.
Thus praying to Jesus must be idol worship by your definition.

You want idol worship? Come to my religion and I'll show you idol worship :D


To answer your question....God is omnipresent...he can be everywhere at once. The third equation to your scenario is the Holy Spirit!
Jesus is God...just that he was the human form. The human form died for our sins. It is through that, through Jesus that we get to God.

What religion is that Myk? I might drive up and join you one of these days just to see what your talking about.

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 08:27 AM
Been doing some research into the catechism verses the bible. Basically, you have to ask yourself one question, "Do I feel lucky, well....do you punk"? Oh wait, different board. :D The question is...."do I believe the bible or the catchism?" You have to believe one or the other because they are contradictory.

Here are some differences:

BIBLE:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... " John 10:9

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

"Yet I am the LORD thy God... there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4

"... ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:18-19

CATECHISM:
"Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494

"She (Mary) is inseparably linked with the saving work of her Son." Pg. 303, #1172

They elevate Mary at or above Jesus...that is clear.

Herein lies the problem with Catholicism to me and IMHO....most people associating don't know much about church, the bible, or even the catechism. They are Catholic because their parents are or they were sprinkled on the head as a baby and told they are all right. If they practice at all, they use ritual prayers and praying to saints as a substitute for the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and their own conscience. In short, it seems that most Catholics that I know anyway don't practice and use Catholicism as a sort of license to laugh at and participate in sin but not feel guilty about it and convicted of it through their ritual prayers.

To be fair, most 'Christians' are the same way. They are because their parents were. I can tell you that I am so because I felt the burning tug of the Holy Spirit convicting me like I was on fire and opening my eyes to my sin. I felt like the biggest scoundrel on Earth. Then I accepted Jesus Christ and felt the lifting of that sin. I am still a scoundrel, the flesh never changes. But I can attest that I have seen filthy, foul mouthed alcoholics come to Christ who now are model parents and citizens and are telling others of what Christ did for them. There was a true change there folks.

Again, I am not bashing Catholics. I am just saying that their are clear distinctions between the bible and the catechism and I believe the bible. It is clear to me that God hates sin....I think that we all agree on. So there is a choice between a religion that teaches that Jesus paid for our sins yet we should accept him and then shun sin in our lives as Christ like as we can versus one that says--more or less--let's go have a blow out, we can go to church when we are done. Catholicism takes away conviction of sin and replaces it with a process.

I would like for anyone who calls themselves a Catholic to really think about what I said here. The catechism cannot be reconciled to the bible period...I am sorry they are mutually exclusive books. One must be wrong as I documented above showing the verses about Mary. Given that God hates sin, which belief do you think is correct? Shun sin at all costs or go ahead and sin away as long as you plan on going to church later to clean up.....what if you die on the way?

Again, I am not damning Catholics as only God can tell a man's heart. But I believe there are Catholic-lites that believe everything is okay because their parents are Catholic or they were sprinkled as a child that never had a true conversion that will split hell wide open when they die. If that is you, you can PM me...read Luke 39 verses 39-43 and look at the repentant thief and what he did that caused Jesus to say "today you will be with me in Paradise". No mention of Mary, the pope, confession, baptism, works, being prayed out of purgatory, or anything else. Only Jesus. So either Jesus is a liar and the bible is all wrong or the catecism is wrong. Both cannot be right.

I simply do not see how someone who truly practices Catholicism in its true form can be a Christian. I just do not because the beliefs core to the Catholic faith are completely contrary to just about everything in the Bible. So again it boils down to whether church traditions and the catechism are correct or the Bible is correct. Again, I would say most of those people who would say the catechism is correct say so because it is a religion of convenient conscience washing through rituals.

Not bashing my Catholic friends but rather just trying to point out the truth as the Bible teaches it.

New

VorTexan
March 22nd, 2006, 09:24 AM
Why thank you....usually I get berated on here! :D

About what is right and wrong....Paul wrote in Romans about grey area things that may not be considered sinful to you but might derail another Christian. I think it was in context of selling and eating meat that was offered as a sacrifice at the temple. There isn't a verse that says it is wrong but if it causes a brother to stumble, don't do it for it is sin.

I just love that passage in Luke because it is very simple and verified by Jesus. Who can argue with THAT? No one can argue that the thief was prayed out of purgatory or that he was baptised....I doubt the Roman soldiers who broke their legs cared about giving them their last rights. He did exactly what the bible said and made it (albeit with smoke smell on his clothes!).

New

Still got it going on here. That is the area where YOU are convicted by the Holy Spirit as to right and wrong for you. I live in an area where having a Bud in my hand WOULD cause others to stumble (literally) and therefore I don't do it. Now, that being said I wouldn't condemn others from let's say Germany and many parts of the US that it is common and getting drunk is not the norm. The other reason I don't PARTAKE is my grandpa died an alcoholic and my best friend was KILLED by a drunk driver when I was 16. That is reason enough for me but I realize there are some out there that know when and where to partake. Those I have no problem with. I would just rather have a good time without those that feel they must get a buzz to have fun. The positives vs. the negatives are easy for me to see here. Yes Jesus turned the water into wine and as I said there is a time and a place for everything. I didn't read where he and the disciples got a keg and had a party and woke up not knowing where and who they were with nor driving a 2 ton vehicle. Kinda hard to run over someone with a donkey ya think?

Skeptic
March 22nd, 2006, 09:34 AM
Still got it going on here. That is the area where YOU are convicted by the Holy Spirit as to right and wrong for you. I live in an area where having a Bud in my hand WOULD cause others to stumble (literally) and therefore I don't do it. Now, that being said I wouldn't condemn others from let's say Germany and many parts of the US that it is common and getting drunk is not the norm. The other reason I don't PARTAKE is my grandpa died an alcoholic and my best friend was KILLED by a drunk driver when I was 16. That is reason enough for me but I realize there are some out there that know when and where to partake. Those I have no problem with. I would just rather have a good time without those that feel they must get a buzz to have fun. The positives vs. the negatives are easy for me to see here. Yes Jesus turned the water into wine and as I said there is a time and a place for everything. I didn't read where he and the disciples got a keg and had a party and woke up not knowing where and who they were with nor driving a 2 ton vehicle. Kinda hard to run over someone with a donkey ya think?

Well I'm pretty sure I saw that in there somewhere....LOL. How could you miss that? NO, drunkeness is WRONG! There's no ifs ands or buts about it! I've personally made that mistake a few times myself so I'm no one to judge. I have made a change personally to NA beer. I'll occasionally have one with the good stuff in it, but they are few and far between. I do like the taste of beer though.

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 09:47 AM
Still got it going on here. That is the area where YOU are convicted by the Holy Spirit as to right and wrong for you. I live in an area where having a Bud in my hand WOULD cause others to stumble (literally) and therefore I don't do it. Now, that being said I wouldn't condemn others from let's say Germany and many parts of the US that it is common and getting drunk is not the norm. The other reason I don't PARTAKE is my grandpa died an alcoholic and my best friend was KILLED by a drunk driver when I was 16. That is reason enough for me but I realize there are some out there that know when and where to partake. Those I have no problem with. I would just rather have a good time without those that feel they must get a buzz to have fun. The positives vs. the negatives are easy for me to see here. Yes Jesus turned the water into wine and as I said there is a time and a place for everything. I didn't read where he and the disciples got a keg and had a party and woke up not knowing where and who they were with nor driving a 2 ton vehicle. Kinda hard to run over someone with a donkey ya think?


Well, that depends on the person and the donkey! :D

Odd, I had a buddy of mine....Shannon Moseley [GM sidesaddle gas tank case] killed by a drunk driver when I was 16 also. Plus, my Dad was an alcoholic for years as well but survives to this day.

I believe there is ample reason to believe that drinking is prohibited in the bible but hey, that's me. IMHO, there is nothing good that results from a person drinking alcohol....period.

But like I said, I am not condemning those who do. I wish they would stop but I am not condemning them.

New

DwayneR
March 22nd, 2006, 09:53 AM
Hello Buckster,

Buckster>>So Dwayne what you are saying is that because Catholics pray to Mary thats idol worship....okay...but for them its not an idol...its the mother of God....so does God then think that they are worshipping an idol of just the mother of Jesus, one of the most important people in the bible?<<

Ok, I look at it this way.

1. Is Mary a God?
2. When you bow down to something it is called worshiping.
3. Man doesn't need another man to pray to God.

What does the Bible say about the above?

1. You should not bow down to any god except for me.
2. Your only mediator is Christ, Who is the son of God, whom is our savior, who is the ONLY way into the heavens door because of mans failure.

Nomatter how you look at it, bowing down to Mary is wrong. She is not a God, she is a idol, period.

A person can say the most important man alive on earth right now is the Pope. Big man on the totem pole. But he is a man, not a god. HE is like you and I. Yet people seem to think he is a God himself. That is wrong in my books too.

Dwayne

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 10:02 AM
Speaking of the Pope, we just had a re-poping if you will where several men met and chose the next pope. The TV people had their lead pony as did several other experts.

So my question is this......

What if they picked the wrong pope? There was apparently some dissention in who the next pope would be with some on the committee thinking one thing and the others things another. So someone had to give in......how do we know we got the REAL next pope. Also, if the old pope that just died was God on Earth, how can someone else step in and become God on Earth.

Does the God on Earth spirit kind of cruise around until the committee picks the next pope where it can then go to him and inhabit his body? How does that work?

Just was kind of odd to me.

New

DwayneR
March 22nd, 2006, 10:03 AM
Hello LarryM,

LarryM>>No, it doesn't work that way. The way I learned it was that you are asking Mary to carry your prayers to God. It is really no different than asking people on this site to pray on your behalf for a sick or injured loved one.<<

Larry, No Place in the Bible does it say to use a man to pray through to get to God. The Bible explicitely states that man shall bow down and make NO IMAGE other than himself. Mary is a Image, an Image of a man, Mary is NOT a God.

It is NOT The father, son, holy Spirit, and Mary. It *IS* The father , Son and Holy Spirit PERIOD.

Thus is the whole crux of the situation. WE have a church that has a man-made image of a man. That man is not a God, yet they pray through it. We have a religion that is so full of rituals, people are dumbfounded by it. I say "Show me in the Bible where these rituals are supposed to be done" This is why it is so important to read the Bible *in context*, and try our best to skew it into something it isn't.

Dwayne

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 10:16 AM
What confuses me--and I am trying both to be diplomatic and not bash Catholics here, really--is the number of people who are sort of unaware or ignorant of what the bible and the catechism says. They will, however, be the first to step up and argue with you that what you just said is wrong wrong wrong....yet, you read word for word from their catechism. If you take a good long look at their teachings and writings, it is kind of scary and almost cultlike.

They want to sort of kind of believe in Jesus but pretty much that is the end of their use for him. Everything is handled through substitutes for Jesus and outright say that Jesus wasn't good enough. How they can do away with the verses I quoted above from the bible about how Jesus was the only way and still incorporate the bible into their worship, I will never know. I think the answer is that they leave the bible in there so as not to alienate more conservative members but really use the catechism and traditions instead.

New

DwayneR
March 22nd, 2006, 10:25 AM
Hello NewArcher,

NA>>What if they picked the wrong pope?..... Also, if the old pope that just died was God on Earth, how can someone else step in and become God on Earth.<<

Well, that is the problem isn't it?? How can ANYONE pick a MAN to be worshiped like Christ? That is my problem with someone like the Pope. People worship him like a God of some kind. I don't care if it a Pope, Queen of an Island, King of a Kingdom, or the President of the USA. When people start to worship, travel thousands of miles, just to "touch" these people... there is something definitely wrong.

NA>>Does the God on Earth spirit kind of cruise around until the committee picks the next pope where it can then go to him and inhabit his body? How does that work?<<

Tell me and we both will know...

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 22nd, 2006, 10:32 AM
you guys make some good points on the Mary-idol thing.....I fully understand where you are coming from....right or wrong...I don't think that Catholics feel that they are worshipping an idol because they feel that Mary was given by God the birth of the Savior. Obviously God didn;t ahve to choose to have a virgin birth, form someone named Mary...right, God can do anything...so the Catholics feel Mary is a very big part of God, Jesus and the holy spirit. And I'll leave it at that.

Dwayne> you are right and the Catholics make the sign of the cross and repeat in the name of the father the Son and the holy spirit (some say ghost)

Again you are right that Catholics are steeped in ritual....but lets me see when I went to Baptist church, lets see they did the prayer they did the preaching, they did the passing around of the grape juice and crackers then the offering basket....uh oh looks like a ritual to me...and this goes on in the Church of Christ, Methodist, and lots of other Churches.....RITUALS...thats what a lot of religions have.

New> Lets not even go there on the whole Pope thing....thast a big old basket of worms....

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 10:42 AM
New> Lets not even go there on the whole Pope thing....thast a big old basket of worms....

You mean casket? :D :eek: :eek:

Bah bump bump.....good thing he isn't really God or I would be in trouble BIG TIME for that one! :D

New

DwayneR
March 22nd, 2006, 11:05 AM
Hello Buckster,

Buckster>>but lets me see when I went to Baptist church, lets see they did the prayer they did the preaching, they did the passing around of the grape juice and crackers then the offering basket....uh oh looks like a ritual to me...and this goes on in the Church of Christ, Methodist, and lots of other Churches.....RITUALS...thats what a lot of religions have.<<

And Yes! that communion IS a ritual... in ALL religions. The church reads the Bible and reads how Christ broke bread and told the deciples how it will be in rememberance of him. It did NOT say it was a commandment. It was for the last supper and the deciples. To me, it is important for people to know it is NOT a requirement, but only a "re-inactment" of the last supper.

And most churches are FULL of rituals!...absolutely. Even Baptism is a ritual. It is a way to Publically show your faith in front of a congregation. It is NOT required in any way. This can be shown easily through Romans 10:9, and how Jesus told the thief that he will be with him for professing his faith.

Dwayne

DwayneR
March 22nd, 2006, 11:09 AM
Hello NewARcher,

NA>>You mean casket?<<

:ROFLMAO:


Dwayne

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 11:19 AM
I hope the Catholics aren't right or I just went to hell's basement for that one! :D

New

BUCKSTER
March 22nd, 2006, 11:38 AM
Dwayne> Points taken...http://www.smileypad.com/v202/Cache/Happy/Wink.gif


New> uh...I'm not gonna touch that one just leave you with thishttp://www.smileypad.com/vEmotiPad/Cache/Aiwan/diablo.gif


http://www.smileypad.com/vEmotiPad/Cache/Aiwan/rofl.gif

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 11:44 AM
Oh no, not him! :D

Have a good one, buckster.

New

BUCKSTER
March 22nd, 2006, 01:16 PM
New> You have good one too....

Great "debating" with you all.... peace and joyhttp://www.smileypad.com/v202/Cache/Happy/Big-Thumbs-Up.gif

newarcher
March 22nd, 2006, 01:32 PM
This has been a good one and considering the topic, extraordinarily peaceful.

Good people here!

New

sullyhood
March 22nd, 2006, 05:09 PM
I believe that catholic means "universal" - A catholic is just a "universal"
christian. Who do you think that is on their cross being crucified?
Also, someone mentioned Mary. I think that the idea of praying to
"Mary" is the concept that most will do anything for their mother,
they will not deny their mother's request. So i think the theory is that
Jesus will not deny his mother's request if she asks him to intercede for
the person praying.

Spreggy
March 22nd, 2006, 05:38 PM
Larry, No Place in the Bible does it say to use a man to pray through to get to God. The Bible explicitely states that man shall bow down and make NO IMAGE other than himself. Mary is a Image, an Image of a man, Mary is NOT a God.

It is NOT The father, son, holy Spirit, and Mary. It *IS* The father , Son and Holy Spirit PERIOD.

Thus is the whole crux of the situation.
Are you sure?

Catholics like their statues. Mary, the Stations of the Cross, every saint in the business gets a statue sooner or later. But it's because of their interpretation of the bible, and I think one can guess that the Catholic Church has read it a few times. They take it as seriously as anybody.

There is a strong argument supporting praying through saints and others. For instance, the saints pray in heaven:

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS.

James 5:16 “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” Those in heaven are perfectly righteous, and their prayers are efficacious. How can one ignore them?

And as others have cited, it's certainly encouraged that all men pray for each other.

Now with a little googling you can easily see where I copy/pasted this stuff. I say that to further support my main point: There are many interpretations of the bible, and there have been many bibles, more than most will admit. The word has been changed many times. So how can any man of today's era responsibly make an interpretation to rule over all others? It's just not possible to do so honestly, because you don't have all the info. If someone says they're a Christian, and is committed to it, they're a Christian.

the natural
March 22nd, 2006, 07:53 PM
Lotta responses. I didn't realize it was so debateable. I thought it was cut and dry, black and white. Guess not.

So I have another question, do you have to attend Church regularly to be a Christian?

I went to a Catholic school all my life, and I'm not sure what my religion is! I do believe in God, and have been baptised, and have had my first communion, and have done reconcilliation. BUT I don't go to church regularly, mostly because I was raised in a family that doesn't. I do wear a cross around my neck, and keep a coin in my pocket everyday to keep God in my life, and remind me of everything he's done for me though.

WHAT AM I?
YOU ARE A MAN WITH FAITH. my church is a non-denominational church and our pastor preaches from the bible and we keep the sabbath and i guess we call our selves christians but will take anyone in who is a believer that jesus is our savior and god is our father. to many people get caught up and brained wash by certain religious dos and donts and fanatics who say that they have never had a solid arguement about what they are right and wrong about, when really they just have not met the right person and there are to many people who give their take on what is written and its meaning, but to me and god as long as you believe, confess and only worship him you just have faith.

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 10:20 AM
Hello Spreggy,

Spreggy>>And as others have cited, it's certainly encouraged that all men pray for each other.<<

Spreggy, the crux is not praying for each other, but using a man as an intermediator to pray through to get to god. When Christ is that intermediator!... It would be like me praying to you, so that you can (intercede) and take my prayers to God, because you are a "holier" man than I.

Anyone can pray for each other. This means you are directly praying to god to help that person out. The issue becomes wrong when I start thinking that I must go to another man, so that I feel that other man will intercede, and communicate to God on my behalf.

Spreggy>>So how can any man of today's era responsibly make an interpretation to rule over all others?<<

EXCELLENT POINT! And I totally see where you are coming from! My take on this situation is this. As long as the verses say close to the same thing, it is probably valid. (notice I said probably). If they vary by saying two different things, then I must stand neutral and take no sides. Since *I* cannot read the originial text, I also must *trust* someone to do that for me. Thus the different interpretations of the Bible. And YES! there are some things in the bible which are IMO wrong and contraversial.

Spreggy>> It's just not possible to do so honestly, because you don't have all the info. If someone says they're a Christian, and is committed to it, they're a Christian.<<

I don't question their Christianity. What I do question, is their actions. I question their actions, because 80 percent of the time, thier actions are not justified by the Bible, the very thing they claim they read and follow by. As a Christian, I would *think* that Christ would be their mentor. The New Testiment is ALL ABOUT Christ and his actions. Yet the actions of most Christians nowadays do not reflect what the ways of Christ refect.

First of all, realise I live in the Bible Belt... that could skew what I see...

Case in point:

Around here, they want to put everybody in jail for anything. Lets pick one situation... (I will pick a controversial one) Prostitution!

Hey, lets face it... This one HAS GOT to be easy... I would think... Its illegal here, and you get the book thrown at you. But what does the Bible say Jesus did? 100 percent OPPOSITE of what we do. How about Gambling and other things???
I ask one simple question: Show me where Christ said to make laws against these things, to force others into "Moral" behaviors that Christ and his father wants.

If you can't, then I question your true following of the Bible.

Dwayne

Acenturian
March 23rd, 2006, 11:55 AM
I went all through Catholic school and I married a wonderful woman who was raised Lutherian and attended Lutherian school. So naturally, we discussed our differences.

With regards to the "Mary" thing, I got asked the same questions. As I was told, Catholics hold Mary to a higher standard then an average person. She is NOT GOD. It is based on a biblical interpretation.

In the gospel of John when Jesus was dying on the cross he looked down and saw his mother and his beloved disciple standing next to her and he made a stament similar to "Mother there is your son", and to the disciple "there is your mother".

I think the biggest difference that I have seen in different Christian denominations is how they interpret the bible and its passages. The Catholic schools I attended tended to interpret the bible while some other groups tend to take the bible word for word.

As far as going to confession, I know my sins are forgiven through the Lord Jesus Christ. So why go to confession? Again, the theory I was thought was that (A) it is a lot harder to go in and say what you have done to a person than it is to hide in your bedroom and ask for forgivness (teach a little humility) (B) some people need to hear the words that God has forgiven them.

As for the Pope, he is a figure head of a church that has a membership of over 1 billion people. While I personally feel that the church has "inflated" the position, he is a man no better or worse than anyone else. The Catholic church can trace its heritage back to Peter whom they believe to be the first Pope.

Finally, I find it amusing when people get up in arms about a Catholic going to a priest for confession or holding the Pope in high esteme because they are just men. Ok, well who wrote the bible? I'll tell ya what, when lightening strikes and at the end of it is a book I'll take it word for word until then, I realize the Bible was written by men (inspired) by God but still man's creation.

I don't attended Catholic services anymore, however, yes I believe they are Christian.

On a side note we were married in a Episcopal Church :)

newarcher
March 23rd, 2006, 01:08 PM
Ace,

I think, from my experiences, that there seems to be a lot of variation between the Catholic church's decrees about what it believes (see my contrast of Mary verses between the bible and the catechism) and what many people calling themselves Catholic believe.

I asked a friend who is Catholic about these things I posted here that made me believe the Catholic church to be more of a cult than Christian and he had never heard of those things.

So I don't know. I do know what the Bible says and I believe it and the catechism is nothing more than words on paper to me. It adds to the bible, which is strictly forbidden.

New

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 01:10 PM
Hello Ace,

Great post Ace... I enjoyed reading it.

Now just a few little comments...

Ace>>Finally, I find it amusing when people get up in arms about a Catholic going to a priest for confession or holding the Pope in high esteme because they are just men.<<

Show me in the bible where it says to go to a high priest? This is what gets me. Its not that they do it, but they attempt to justify it, and tell their followers its ok, and they have the power to mediate for them. Thus, they place themselves above man.

Ace >>Ok, well who wrote the bible? I'll tell ya what, when lightening strikes and at the end of it is a book I'll take it word for word until then, I realize the Bible was written by men (inspired) by God but still man's creation.<<

Yes, man *DID* write the Bible, but inspired by God. But, lets look at your sentence ok???


Bible was written by men (inspired) by God but still man's creation

Isn't this kinda a oxymoron? If it was "inspired" by god, how can it be "Mans creation"?

Dwayne

edit part: changing quotes to show emphysis on creation.

Acenturian
March 23rd, 2006, 02:27 PM
I guess what confuses me is what difference does it make to you as a non-catholic, if a Catholic goes to a priest for whatever? Unless, that person is telling you that you are wrong for not being Catholic I fail to see the problem. Since every denomination does things a bit different, hence domoninations.

Now in realtion to the comment about the Bible being inspired by God. Let me pose this to you. How do you know that the Bible was inspired by God? Something I learned in college (not a religious college) was that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not the part of the twelve apostiles. In fact the gosple John was written approximately 130 years after Jesus died.

So, if you have ever played telephone in class where you whisper a message and pass it on, by the time you get to friend number 15 the message is completly twisted from its orginal context. So we now add the passage of time, plus the fact that the new testimate was orginally written in Greek and was translated you can see where things can get a bit confusing.

I will not get into my personal beliefs, unless asked to do so. However, I will defend the Jewish/Christian belief system as I feel it offers great moral grounds and I find it sad that this country has gotten away from those moral boundries.

Finally, I will share a personal story. A few years back I went to a funerial for a very close personal friend (hunting buddy, and someone like an extended parent) who was Catholic. They had a full service mass included. When it came time for communion I was shocked that the priest told the people that if they were baptized in a Christan faith they could come up for communion. That was un heard of when I was growing up. Back then only Catholic persons could partake in communion. :eek: Finally, I thought to myself "maybe Christian people fianlly realize that there is by far more things the bind them together (regardless of donomination) that what divides them appart".

newarcher
March 23rd, 2006, 02:31 PM
Ace,

The problem I have with the whole priest forgiving sins and the entire Mary thing is that anything which places man or a woman in the place of forgiving sins says that Jesus didn't completely pay for our sins. I don't think that anyone believing that can be saved from what my bible says.

New

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 04:04 PM
Hello Ace,

Ace>>Now in realtion to the comment about the Bible being inspired by God. Let me pose this to you. How do you know that the Bible was inspired by God? Something I learned in college (not a religious college) was that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were not the part of the twelve apostiles. In fact the gosple John was written approximately 130 years after Jesus died. <<

In many ways it doesn't matter when it was written per se. Authors writing the same stories about the same person, reflecting the same happenings, close to the time of Christ.

In order for a person to BE a Christian, they MUST believe the Bible and its contents. I find it ironic there is a book out there that tells mans past, present and future. And the Bible is it. NO other religion can claim that. The bible is EXTREMELY ACCURATE on Christ and his birth and death. Granted, we cannot prove his miracles, but we can somewhat rely on the multiple of witnesses and their "hand-me-down" until written stories.

Yes, you are correct, no-one can 100 percent say the Bible was "Inspired" by god. But if you are a Christian, and see how the books corrilate, one can only choose by odds and faith that the Bible was inspired by god. The odds of man coming up with so much consistance of the same stories is too odd. (I am *Not* saying it *can't* happen).

Ace>>So, if you have ever played telephone in class where you whisper a message and pass it on, by the time you get to friend number 15 the message is completly twisted from its orginal context.<<

Totally agree!!!... and Yet the writings of these men are so close! In fact they are right on. Thus, what happened? Why wasn't the stories "skewed" as in the telephone conversations? Granted one writer may have said 5000 people, another may have said 10,000 people, another may have said 2000 people. But the *idea* behind it was a great multiple people at that time.

Ace>>I will not get into my personal beliefs, unless asked to do so. However, I will defend the Jewish/Christian belief system as I feel it offers great moral grounds and I find it sad that this country has gotten away from those moral boundries. <<

No Ace, you do not have to get into your beliefs, nor anyone else. What beliefs we have are NOT important on this conversation. What *is* important, is how we backup certain things we believe and disbelieve. You are pointing out some excellent things that are important to both sides.

Dwayne

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 04:08 PM
Hello NewArcher,

NEw>>Mary thing is that anything which places man or a woman in the place of forgiving sins says that Jesus didn't completely pay for our sins.<<

My issue is, it places Mary as an intermediary between God and Man, Thus what was Jesus for?

My second issue is... Its a idol...period. I don't care what you call it, but it IS an idol!. And you ARE bowing down to an idol in which you think is going to help you.

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 23rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE POINT....


You can think(interpret) that Mary is an idol that's fine...its your belief....but Catholics don't INTERPRET ....Mary as being an Idol.

It just like the drinking thing earlier...New interprets the bible to say that its a sin to drink.... I say not its a sin to get drunk ...a mere glass of wine/beer/ scotch won't in most cases get you drunk.> but then we have to interpret what drunk means:rolleyes: <

Also...New "interprets" that Jesus didn't drink wine...but grape juice....what kind of interpretation is that I ask....it never says grape juice in the Bible...no it says wine...grape juice is grape juice and wine is wine. And Jesus did drink it.....

ITS ALL ABOUT INTERPRETTIONS. That's why you have so many different Christian based churches.

(Newarcher not picking on you but you gave me good examples to make my point.....and of course that's what this whole thing is all about making a point) Right? LOL:wink:

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 05:15 PM
Hello Buckster,

Buckster>>YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE POINT....


You can think(interpret) that Mary is an idol that's fine...its your belief....but Catholics don't INTERPRET ....Mary as being an Idol.<<

No my friend, I am NOT missing the point. Mary is a statue of a man. Mary is a statue that Catholics bow down to.

a. It IS an Idol.
b. They BOW DOWN to it.

The bible explicitely says NOT to do such things.

Now, we as humans can skew all we want, that Mary is NOT an Idol, and we are NOT bowing down to her, but instead using her as an interceder? between man and god. But that also creates another problem. That puts her as *almost* equal to Christ. It places glory on her, a man. Then why the heck go through the actions of bowing and using her in the first place? Why not use the Pope? Better yet, why not use ME??? :humble:

Seriously, why NOT use me? Come to me and knee before me and pray through me. Will you do it? Will you be uncomfortable doing it? If so, why?
Hail Dwayne! and I will tell you how many Hail Dwayne's to say before I deem you forgiven of your sins.

Buckster>>It just like the drinking thing earlier...New interprets the bible to say that its a sin to drink...<<

I disagree.... NOWHERE in the bible does it say "do not drink"... many places it DOES say "Do not get drunk". Big difference. It explicitely states not to bow down to any idol or God other than I. Mary IS an statue an Idol, and is bowed down to. She is placed above man and almost equal to Christ.

Maybe I should ask, What is the definition of an Idol?

1.a. An image used as an object of worship. b. A false god. 2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively. 3. Something visible but without substance.

Statue of Mary fits quite well in my books. Granted, we can debate "b." (I will give you that one).

wor·ship (wûr“sh¹p) n. 1.a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 2. Ardent devotion; adoration.

Mary is an object, people bow to her, People pray through her, People show their expression of love by "honoring" mary and bowing down to her. They Adore her... if they didn't, why the heck do they even have a statue of her in the first place? Honoring her as such?

Dwayne

toxo
March 23rd, 2006, 05:26 PM
Scripture tends to tell us he was!!!!!! Anyone know why?

toxo
March 23rd, 2006, 05:29 PM
Why did he rip it? Any one know? What did Jesus say to make him angry? Tell me the words he used in Aramic that made The high Priest angry........I will bet my bow that no one knows..........who wants to try?

DwayneR
March 23rd, 2006, 05:32 PM
Hello Toxo,

This is not part of the thread Toxo, Try starting a new thread with this...
I wil answer it anyhow... "Who Cares?".

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 23rd, 2006, 06:44 PM
Dwayne

Mary is an object, people bow to her, People pray through her, People show their expression of love by "honoring" mary and bowing down to her. They Adore her... if they didn't, why the heck do they even have a statue of her in the first place? Honoring her as such?

Okay...I'll give...jeez you beat me down...I understand...just like when in some Christian churches....some of the congregation...bows down in front of the preacher man and pray in front of him whilst kneeling down....they are bowing down in front of him and praying that he can heel, get them some money whatever their prayer to the preacher is...got ya, they are not praying to God but bowing down to the preacher so that preacher man can pass on to God and through preacher man to heel them or whatever they want done! Gotta ya crystal clear to me now! :wink:

Or when you got those that watch on I don't know one of the TV Evangelist on they can't wait to meet him and oh how they idolize him......

My argument isn't weather what Catholics do ...but why...Interpretation

Acenturian
March 24th, 2006, 01:18 AM
So I have to ask Dwayne are Catholics wrong? Are they wrong for "bowing" to a statue"? Does that make then "less of a Christian"? Are they wrong because their bible has more books in it then yours? If so, then are eastern orthodox also wrong since they have all of the approcrypha in their bible? What "Christian" faiths are ok?

Since some hold the bible as the ultimate word or truth of Gods plan. Again a book written by men who we are taught were "inspired by God" and hope that the persons who translated were also "inspired", then who's Bible is right?

Again I being raised Catholic, go to an Episcopal church been to services at Lutheran, Methodist, Presbaterian and non-denominational -- there is more in common then what divides.

doctariAFC
March 24th, 2006, 09:29 AM
man you are way off.....Do you even go to church??? Catholics have mass and receive communion everyday....how often do protestants have communion, just when 'they' feel it is necessary....
The tradition of the Catholic church is that you may only receive the sacrament on Sunday. Are you a Catholic Christian or a Protestan Christian?

Regarding the Bible, the lay-people received permission from the Pope to have a Bible and even read the Bible only recently (1800's). It still is not used in Mass. Further, only recently (1900's) were Catholic Masses given in English or any other language besides Latin. The Priest also never would face the congregation during the Mass, rather, he would always face the efigy of Christ on the Cross/ supplicating to the Alter. The only time the Priest would face the congregation was during the sacrament, and even then, oftentimes those who gave the sacrament were the chruch Deacons, after the Priest blessed the bread and wine (although in Catholic Church the wine was usually partaken only by the Priest and the Parrish elders, not the general congregation :confused3:)

Strict Catholic Mass and the rules of the Mass have been pretty consistent, but changes have been made over time. I like the structure of the mass, as you get the sense you have gone to church to worship, and not to socialize or "pose" in front of friends and neighbors showing off what a devout christian you are. It also isn't gossip hour, either. But my big issue is the Word of God, the Bible, is not available readily in the RC Curch for the general congregation to read. Missilettes suck, but, that is the tradition, and that is that.

Much of this is why I decided to read the Bible for myself, and was enlightened to read that Jesus observed that when 3 people or more come together in His Name, that constitutes a "church." You need no building with wiezened old men carrying baskets begging for money (filthy lurce) during the ceremony. But, churches have bills to pay, too. I do not have any issues with giving to any church. I just have a problem with being obligated to do so, and to a specified amount, too! Seems like some churches forgot the lesson Jesus taught in the Temple. You cannot serve God and Mammon both.

newarcher
March 24th, 2006, 09:40 AM
So I have to ask Dwayne are Catholics wrong? Are they wrong for "bowing" to a statue"? Does that make then "less of a Christian"? Are they wrong because their bible has more books in it then yours? If so, then are eastern orthodox also wrong since they have all of the approcrypha in their bible? What "Christian" faiths are ok?

Since some hold the bible as the ultimate word or truth of Gods plan. Again a book written by men who we are taught were "inspired by God" and hope that the persons who translated were also "inspired", then who's Bible is right?

Again I being raised Catholic, go to an Episcopal church been to services at Lutheran, Methodist, Presbaterian and non-denominational -- there is more in common then what divides.

Well, that's a hard question to answer and only can be answered by them.

I will say that if a person subscribes to the true Catholic conventions of worshipping Mary and equating her with God then yes they are wrong. Can they be saved believing that? No, I don't think so. Anything that takes away from the deity of Christ is a false prohphet and I think God was clear about false prophets.

Jesus said he is the only way and any religion that puts anyone else equal with God as the Catholics have (and for you catholics that say you don't, read your handouts it is clearly written so in the catechism), then that is blaspheme. No different than what Satan and his angels attempted and what Satan convinced Eve that she would be if she ate of the apple. Neither turned out really well for Satan or Eve so I wouldn't suggest it. IMHO, you might as well be worshipping Budda or some clod of dirt rather than Mary.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus is the only ticket to heaven....only through him. The Bible is clear that it isn't to be taken away from or added to. I will belive the Bible.

New

DwayneR
March 24th, 2006, 10:06 AM
Hello Buckster,

Buckster>>they are not praying to God but bowing down to the preacher so that preacher man can pass on to God and through preacher man to heel them or whatever they want done! Gotta ya crystal clear to me now! <<

Yes, and this is wrong.

Buckster>>Or when you got those that watch on I don't know one of the TV Evangelist on they can't wait to meet him and oh how they idolize him......

My argument isn't weather what Catholics do ...but why...Interpretation<<


Yes, and this is wrong.


These people are men. These people are basically steering these people with false healings, etc.

1. Bibles says you do NOT need a person as an interceder.
2. You are to bow down before no other idol execept for me.

Thus, when I Christian kneels, it had better NOT be in front of a statue or article, except something that represents God or Christ directly. The statue of Mary is NOT God or Christ. It does not represent them at all. It represents a man.

Evangelists...(Naw, you don't want me to get started on those do you???) I call those folks leeches and hate mongers that spread hate like the Islamic Radicals that preach against Christianity.

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 24th, 2006, 10:06 AM
Doc>

Strict Catholic Mass and the rules of the Mass have been pretty consistent, but changes have been made over time. I like the structure of the mass, as you get the sense you have gone to church to worship, and not to socialize or "pose" in front of friends and neighbors showing off what a devout christian you are. It also isn't gossip hour, either. But my big issue is the Word of God, the Bible, is not available readily in the RC Curch for the general congregation to read. Missilettes suck, but, that is the tradition, and that is that.

Much of this is why I decided to read the Bible for myself, and was enlightened to read that Jesus observed that when 3 people or more come together in His Name, that constitutes a "church." You need no building with wiezened old men carrying baskets begging for money (filthy lurce) during the ceremony. But, churches have bills to pay, too. I do not have any issues with giving to any church. I just have a problem with being obligated to do so, and to a specified amount, too! Seems like some churches forgot the lesson Jesus taught in the Temple. You cannot serve God and Mammon both.

My thoughts exactly, as a child when I went to Mass (not a catholic but was in a private Catholic school you attended Mass during school. )
I found the Mass and church to be very peaceful...and about Jesus and the Lord, not like when I went to other chruches that were more about look at my pretty dress, or guess what happened to me...me..me..! BTW I've gone to Non-denom, Church Of Christ, Methodist, Babtist and I've been to Jewish temple.
I agree with Doc, this is why I decieded to understand the Bible for myself!

DwayneR
March 24th, 2006, 10:20 AM
Hello Ace,

Ace>>So I have to ask Dwayne are Catholics wrong? Are they wrong for "bowing" to a statue"? <<

Yes, they are wrong my friend. The Bible directly states this. They can skew all they want, but they are bowing down to an idol other than God. They are hail marying and the works.

Ace >>Does that make then "less of a Christian"? <<

This is a excellent question. In *many* ways, I say no, they are not. But in *some* ways I feel like I should say no. (Notice I am unsure of this). I would think that if a Christian is a true Christian, and the Bible says NOT to bow down in front of an idol, they would not do it. (That is my take). But!...I am NOT Christ, and I am NOT to judge whether someone else *is* a Christian or *IS NOT* a Christian. I don't know their heart.

I can only judge a Christians actions by asking myself "Show me in the Bible where Christ said to do...." Is that judging whether they are a Christian or not? No... It *is* judging their actions. Those actions are what we are talking about. From TV evangels to preachers and Churches. I have always asked one funny question: How would the message be preached if the leaders *knew* there will be no income from then on.

Ace>>Are they wrong because their bible has more books in it then yours? If so, then are eastern orthodox also wrong since they have all of the approcrypha in their bible? What "Christian" faiths are ok? <<

More books or not, they break the rules of any book ... nomatter how many extra's there are.

Ace>>Again I being raised Catholic, go to an Episcopal church been to services at Lutheran, Methodist, Presbaterian and non-denominational -- there is more in common then what divides.<<

Yes, I agree there is more common. ITs the actions that are support or not supported.

Dwayne

michihunter
March 24th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Here's a copy/paste to help others understand the Catholioc belief of Intercession.

The Intercession of the Saints


Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.




And another--



Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

For Catholics, there are different types of Marian prayer that reflect different intentions. Reciting the "Magnificat," for example, is a way to praise God as Mary did. By reciting the "Angelus," you commemorate an event in salvation history, one in which Mary had a major role. Such commemorations are also made by the entire Church in the liturgical cycle. At Christmas, for example, the faithful recall Mary's role in the birth of Christ.


Prayers invoking Mary's intercession for your own personal intentions are in a separate class, arousing controversy since the time of the Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries.


The practice of invoking saintly people for their intercession before God in union with Jesus has roots in sacred Scripture. In this regard, Matthew 18:19-20 refers to saints on earth, and Revelation 18:20 refers to saints in heaven. In the early centuries of the Church, veneration and invocation was offered to those martyred for Christ. The practice derives from the doctrine that the saints are united with Jesus in one mystical body (Rm 12:5).


The practice of calling on Mary for aid also appears to be very old in the Catholic Church. An ancient testimony of confidence in Mary is the prayer Sub Tuum, which historians place in the third century:



We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.

(Dictionary of Mary, p. 143)



This practice became an area of significant disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. After the crisis of the Reformation, the Catholic Council of Trent repeated traditional Christian teaching on the intercession of the saints, which applies preeminently to Mary:



The saints who reign together with Christ, offer up their prayers to God for men; ... it is good and useful to invoke them suppliantly and, in order to obtain favors from God through his Son Jesus Christ our Lord who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour, to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support.

(Theotokos, p. 188)



The Synod of Jerusalem held by the Orthodox Church proclaimed a similar position about a century after Trent. Protestants counter that reliance on Mary and the saints detracts from reliance on Jesus Christ, who is our 'one mediator':



For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.
(1 Tm 2:2-5 - New American Bible)


A thorough examination of this topic by the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission may be found in The One Mediator, The Saints and Mary (Augsburg Press, 1992). An excellent contemporary Catholic reflection on the subject is found in chapter 3 of Pope John Paul II's 1987 encyclical, Mother of the Redeemer. A small subsection of paragraph 38 of that chapter is as follows:



The Church knows and teaches with Saint Paul that there is only one mediator: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The maternal role of Mary toward people in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power [Vatican II Constitution on the Church, # 60]: it is mediation in Christ.

Catholics do not pray to Mary as if she were God. Prayer to Mary is memory of the great mysteries of our faith (Incarnation, Redemption through Christ in the rosary), praise to God for the wonderful things he has done in and through one of his creatures (Hail Mary) and intercession (second half of the Hail Mary). The latter is addressed to Mary not as to a vending machine but a support person helping us to discern the will of God in our lives. Mary is a volunteer, highly recommendable and recommended, but not a mandatory and inescapable passage.

doctariAFC
March 24th, 2006, 02:55 PM
Here's a copy/paste to help others understand the Catholioc belief of Intercession.

The Intercession of the Saints


Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.




And another--



Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

For Catholics, there are different types of Marian prayer that reflect different intentions. Reciting the "Magnificat," for example, is a way to praise God as Mary did. By reciting the "Angelus," you commemorate an event in salvation history, one in which Mary had a major role. Such commemorations are also made by the entire Church in the liturgical cycle. At Christmas, for example, the faithful recall Mary's role in the birth of Christ.


Prayers invoking Mary's intercession for your own personal intentions are in a separate class, arousing controversy since the time of the Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries.


The practice of invoking saintly people for their intercession before God in union with Jesus has roots in sacred Scripture. In this regard, Matthew 18:19-20 refers to saints on earth, and Revelation 18:20 refers to saints in heaven. In the early centuries of the Church, veneration and invocation was offered to those martyred for Christ. The practice derives from the doctrine that the saints are united with Jesus in one mystical body (Rm 12:5).


The practice of calling on Mary for aid also appears to be very old in the Catholic Church. An ancient testimony of confidence in Mary is the prayer Sub Tuum, which historians place in the third century:



We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.

(Dictionary of Mary, p. 143)



This practice became an area of significant disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. After the crisis of the Reformation, the Catholic Council of Trent repeated traditional Christian teaching on the intercession of the saints, which applies preeminently to Mary:



The saints who reign together with Christ, offer up their prayers to God for men; ... it is good and useful to invoke them suppliantly and, in order to obtain favors from God through his Son Jesus Christ our Lord who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour, to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support.

(Theotokos, p. 188)



The Synod of Jerusalem held by the Orthodox Church proclaimed a similar position about a century after Trent. Protestants counter that reliance on Mary and the saints detracts from reliance on Jesus Christ, who is our 'one mediator':



For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.
(1 Tm 2:2-5 - New American Bible)


A thorough examination of this topic by the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission may be found in The One Mediator, The Saints and Mary (Augsburg Press, 1992). An excellent contemporary Catholic reflection on the subject is found in chapter 3 of Pope John Paul II's 1987 encyclical, Mother of the Redeemer. A small subsection of paragraph 38 of that chapter is as follows:



The Church knows and teaches with Saint Paul that there is only one mediator: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The maternal role of Mary toward people in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power [Vatican II Constitution on the Church, # 60]: it is mediation in Christ.

Catholics do not pray to Mary as if she were God. Prayer to Mary is memory of the great mysteries of our faith (Incarnation, Redemption through Christ in the rosary), praise to God for the wonderful things he has done in and through one of his creatures (Hail Mary) and intercession (second half of the Hail Mary). The latter is addressed to Mary not as to a vending machine but a support person helping us to discern the will of God in our lives. Mary is a volunteer, highly recommendable and recommended, but not a mandatory and inescapable passage.
Well done! That is correct. The Catholics are big on intercession, using the Saints and the Virgin Mary, Asiking for their strength to get through something, but not for the forgiveness of sin.

Well done.

Protestant Christians believe all of this goes through Christ, which, hey, I have no issues with, either.

BUCKSTER
March 24th, 2006, 03:13 PM
I think it comes down to as i said before....interpretation....Ca tholics are not "bowing" down to Mary..they are following some of the teaching in the scripture.

Now I see how others on here could say that is "bowing" down to an idol..."Mary"....

Interpretation of the scriptures is why we have so very many different churches, even under the umbrella of Christianity...the only thing that brings Christians together is the one belief that Jesus lived, and died for our sins..

doctariAFC
March 24th, 2006, 04:19 PM
I think it comes down to as i said before....interpretation....Ca tholics are not "bowing" down to Mary..they are following some of the teaching in the scripture.

Now I see how others on here could say that is "bowing" down to an idol..."Mary"....

Interpretation of the scriptures is why we have so very many different churches, even under the umbrella of Christianity...the only thing that brings Christians together is the one belief that Jesus lived, and died for our sins..
Well said. And its the control thing that drives the Christian Churches apart, and the money, of course. But all churches seem to be that way, even different branches of Judaism and dare I say Islam as well. Shiite and Sunni??? Hmmmmmm...... Looks like to me each religion has more in common than anyone wishes to see, Hmm?

BUCKSTER
March 24th, 2006, 04:23 PM
Well said. And its the control thing that drives the Christian Churches apart, and the money, of course. But all churches seem to be that way, even different branches of Judaism and dare I say Islam as well. Shiite and Sunni??? Hmmmmmm...... Looks like to me each religion has more in common than anyone wishes to see, Hmm?


Ahh....you've hit upon the major word "CONTROL"...and that there is the issue!

DwayneR
March 24th, 2006, 04:25 PM
Hello Buckster,


the only thing that brings Christians together is the one belief that Jesus lived, and died for our sins..


Thanks a lot Buckster...Just destroy the thread, destroy the debate, and ruin our fun by summing it up in a few words...:fencing: :wink:

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 24th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Dwayne.....sorry...man... but http://bestsmileys.com/signs2/10.gif


LOL...just kidding...http://www.smileypad.com/v202/Cache/Misc/hi.gif

Acenturian
March 25th, 2006, 05:10 PM
That was refreshing:) Besides shooting, hunting and archery I have other interest (bike riding) and dare I say that on some of those forums if religion is discussed then it gets very ugly real fast.

This was great, people can actually discuss and "hammer out" ideas in a very civilized manner.

On a side note while I dont attend church any more (work Sundays) when I am out in the mountains I personally feel that it where I find God and am very greatful for the life that I have.

Happy shooting
ACE

VorTexan
March 25th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Jesus IS THE High Priest. No man, nor woman should come between you and God is the way I interpret the word. There are others that were TAKEN to heaven that we don't GO through as well. When Christ died for us the veil in the temple was split in half symbolizing the fact that we NOW can go to God through the new High priest JESUS. Only he can superceed for us. Mary was not TAKEN directly to heaven. She died and was buried just like everybody else. Is she in heaven? Of course, because she believed Jesus was and is God's son. That's all that matters. We can fight about wine, women and songs we sing but the only thing that matters is God loved the world enough to send his son to die and be sacrificed for us. He paid the price. All we have to do is believe he is whom he said he is and that he died for US. All of us. As Jesus said, simple as a child's faith. We get older and try to complicate things by man made rules etc. It's too easy to just let Jesus handle it for us. We still think we have to do something or have someone else HELP us. Wow! I'm not a preacher but I did stay at a holiday in express before!

Shooters Edge
March 25th, 2006, 11:04 PM
If Jesus were alive today he would probably tith to a "Local" not corporate childrens charity!

Thank "God" I'm an Atheist.....Just kidding......sorta.:wink:

DwayneR
March 27th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Hello Ace,

Ace>>That was refreshing Besides shooting, hunting and archery I have other interest (bike riding) and dare I say that on some of those forums if religion is discussed then it gets very ugly real fast.

This was great, people can actually discuss and "hammer out" ideas in a very civilized manner.<<

Yes, we have some excellent folks here. Each of our interests may be different, but we all know that each of our ideas is just as important as our own. I am glad you participated.

Buckster......

I am just letting you think you won...:wink:

Dwayne

BUCKSTER
March 27th, 2006, 10:49 AM
Dwayne......hey me thinking I've won, is me winning, I think:clap2:

farmdude
March 27th, 2006, 11:06 AM
The Campfire
A place to discuss general, non-archery topics and current news events. No political, religious or military topics please.


hmmmmmmmmmmmm

doctariAFC
March 27th, 2006, 11:12 AM
The Campfire
A place to discuss general, non-archery topics and current news events. No political, religious or military topics please.


hmmmmmmmmmmmm
This is the sub thread, called Political, Religious and Military........

No child left behind cause of action here..... Gotta read the forum title, ya know ;)

Spreggy
March 27th, 2006, 11:13 AM
Go Back ArcheryTalk > ArcheryTalk Forums > The Campfire

Political, Religious, Military Threads
Read the forum titles my friend.

MisterEd
March 27th, 2006, 01:05 PM
The word Catholic is Christian in the language of St. Paul and his contemporaries.

P.S. I knew you would get answers to a 100 questions that you didn't even ask. But ain't free speech wonderful?

sproulman
September 10th, 2010, 03:47 PM
catholics are christians.they believe in god and son of god,JESUS CHRIST.
this is why they are not allowed to join the MASONIC LODGE.you have to believe in SUPREME BEING and word CHRIST cannot be said in the masonic lodge.christ is not read out of bible in lodge also.
i had friend who was methodist.he had his funeral in the catholic church. he was mason.they covered every statue of JESUS CHRIST up with a bed sheet.
YES, CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS AND WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST...........

sproulman
September 10th, 2010, 03:56 PM
Well, that's a hard question to answer and only can be answered by them.

I will say that if a person subscribes to the true Catholic conventions of worshipping Mary and equating her with God then yes they are wrong. Can they be saved believing that? No, I don't think so. Anything that takes away from the deity of Christ is a false prohphet and I think God was clear about false prophets.

Jesus said he is the only way and any religion that puts anyone else equal with God as the Catholics have (and for you catholics that say you don't, read your handouts it is clearly written so in the catechism), then that is blaspheme. No different than what Satan and his angels attempted and what Satan convinced Eve that she would be if she ate of the apple. Neither turned out really well for Satan or Eve so I wouldn't suggest it. IMHO, you might as well be worshipping Budda or some clod of dirt rather than Mary.

The Bible is very clear that Jesus is the only ticket to heaven....only through him. The Bible is clear that it isn't to be taken away from or added to. I will belive the Bible.

New

MASONS dont believe in JESUS CHRIST and he is never spoken or read from at lodge meeting.
yet most of masons go church and their religion worships christ? they believe in SPREME BEING .
IS THAT BLASPHEME?

hoytmonger
September 10th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Holy thread archeology Batman!

Pierre Couture
September 10th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Holy thread archeology Batman!

True dat...:jaw:

sticshooter
September 10th, 2010, 04:03 PM
:set1_rolf2:

Robinhooder3
September 10th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Maybe someone can help me out here. What's the difference between a Catholic person and a Christian person? This is going to sound dumb and ignorant, but I'm not too sure what I am. Can you please explain the difference between someone who's Catholic and someone who's Christian?

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity.

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 04:03 PM
No, it is correct. I'm a Roman Catholic. I've also had the pleasure of witnessing several Protestant churches and how they worship, too.

Biggest difference is the Bible. The only place a Bible is found in a RC church is at the Pulpit for the Priest to view. Sure ain't in the pews for the congregation.

Sad, but true. Gotta look at the history of the Catholic Church, from its founding through the Crusades to the Inquisition years to the modernization to find this stuff. But it is all true. Sorry.For one who professes to be Catholic you sure do have one thing wrong. The congregation has been ENCOURAGED to read the Bible for at least the last 50 years or so. Talk to any Priest. Just because the Bible is in the pews (But prayer books are)

fap1800
September 10th, 2010, 04:04 PM
Holy thread archeology Batman!

i don't think robin was born then!

Robinhooder3
September 10th, 2010, 04:04 PM
woa, this thread is from 2006. Who on earth has been digging around?

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 04:07 PM
woa, this thread is from 2006. Who on earth has been digging around?Sometimes that is fun. You can see how peoples opinions have changed over the years.

jkcerda
September 10th, 2010, 04:08 PM
For one who professes to be Catholic you sure do have one thing wrong. The congregation has been ENCOURAGED to read the Bible for at least the last 50 years or so. Talk to any Priest. Just because the Bible is in the pews (But prayer books are)

if I recall, Doctari is no longer "catholic"

supernova
September 10th, 2010, 04:09 PM
No, it is correct. I'm a Roman Catholic. I've also had the pleasure of witnessing several Protestant churches and how they worship, too.

Biggest difference is the Bible. The only place a Bible is found in a RC church is at the Pulpit for the Priest to view. Sure ain't in the pews for the congregation.

Sad, but true. Gotta look at the history of the Catholic Church, from its founding through the Crusades to the Inquisition years to the modernization to find this stuff. But it is all true. Sorry.
At least part of what you said is incorrect. Saturday mass is very popular in the Mid-West and I've never been to a Catholic Mass that did not have communion.

To Answer the question...................All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholic. :wink:

supernova
September 10th, 2010, 04:11 PM
For one who professes to be Catholic you sure do have one thing wrong. The congregation has been ENCOURAGED to read the Bible for at least the last 50 years or so. Talk to any Priest. Just because the Bible is in the pews (But prayer books are)
I don't see many if any Bible in Lutheran/Methodist churches either.

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 04:20 PM
if I recall, Doctari is no longer "catholic"From what he wrote I doubt he ever really was. He would've known better.

hunt1up
September 10th, 2010, 04:20 PM
For one who professes to be Catholic you sure do have one thing wrong. The congregation has been ENCOURAGED to read the Bible for at least the last 50 years or so. Talk to any Priest. Just because the Bible is in the pews (But prayer books are)

I haven't been to church lately, but was raised Catholic, and I know that there is a yearly bible sale for the perishers at the parish I used to go to. So yup, Catholics read the bible(some more than others).

hunt1up
September 10th, 2010, 04:22 PM
Also, as a kid in Catholic school, we had mass before school everyday. We recieved communion every day of the week. If I remember correctly from the old nun that tought me, you could recieve communion everyday, up to twice a day. Whether that was doctrine or her belief, I'm not sure.

Spreggy
September 10th, 2010, 04:25 PM
I read the bible cover-to-cover a handful of times back in my Catholic days. The catholic church is the daddy, and all these other Johnny-come-latelies are his errant children. Of course, now to me it looks like you are all arguing about Grisham novels.

I should go thru the thread to see if I said the same thing 5 years ago. :tongue:

BUCKSTER
September 10th, 2010, 04:26 PM
holy 2006 dredge up.......

ah good times in the PRM......

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 04:38 PM
From what he wrote I doubt he ever really was. He would've known better.

What gives you that idea? I was raised roman, too. St. Gabriel's and St. Monica's parishes in Indianapolis. Don't ever remember seeing a Bible in the pew. Just prayer book and liturgy. Though It's been 20+ years, I can't recall a single time we were encouraged to read the scriptures. Remember, up until Vatican II, in most circles the average church-goers were told they couldn't understand the scriptures without a priest to interpret it for them, so why bother? In many places and among many catholics I think that's still a strongly held assumption. There are still a lot of old school priests out there. But maybe I wasn't roman catholic either... http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_rolling_eyes.gif

I will say, though, there are plenty of protestant 'churches' that never encourage their people to read the Scriptures, either. :thumbs_do

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 04:42 PM
holy 2006 dredge up.......

ah good times in the PRM......

I just can't believe I never jumped in this discussion back then. The catholic church and the reformation have always been of interest to me. :dontknow:

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 04:54 PM
What gives you that idea? I was raised roman, too. St. Gabriel's and St. Monica's parishes in Indianapolis. Don't ever remember seeing a Bible in the pew. Just prayer book and liturgy. Though It's been 20+ years, I can't recall a single time we were encouraged to read the scriptures. Remember, up until Vatican II, in most circles the average church-goers were told they couldn't understand the scriptures without a priest to interpret it for them, so why bother? In many places and among many catholics I think that's still a strongly held assumption. There are still a lot of old school priests out there. But maybe I wasn't roman catholic either... http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_rolling_eyes.gif

I will say, though, there are plenty of protestant 'churches' that never encourage their people to read the Scriptures, either. :thumbs_doDid you ever ask a Priest for advice or a question while going to Catholic Church? All the ones I ever met always gave back the same answers about almost every question. Instead of answering the question directly they would ask you what you thought the Bible (or Jesus) said about it. If you told them that either you didn't know or that you hadn't ever read the Bible they would GIVE you a Bible to read and maybe suggest certain passages. Then they would tell you to go home and read and pray about it.

ebonarcher
September 10th, 2010, 05:20 PM
Catholics are those christians that follow the word of God as taught and preached buy the holy roman Church, led on earth by the pope.
Christians are any that follow the word of God. mostly using some for of the bible, each with thier own bishops and clergy.
Jesus was NOT a Christian. He was a Jew.
Go figure . Shrug. To the gnostic he was a man, to the newely formed churches he was suddenly God, again go figure.
Jesus him self Said to call no man father but thy father in heaven. Yet the Holy Roman church has continued to call their priests Father. Again Go figure.
Shrug. Faith is a personnel thing. So is child molestation,rape. and many other crimes committed in the name of God.

sticshooter
September 10th, 2010, 05:39 PM
For one who professes to be Catholic you sure do have one thing wrong. The congregation has been ENCOURAGED to read the Bible for at least the last 50 years or so. Talk to any Priest. Just because the Bible is in the pews (But prayer books are)Last time I was in a Catholic church was when my dad died 2000(He came to Christ 2 weeks before he died)No Bibles in the pews ...the only Bibles were the ones My wife and I and kids had and the priest.. I asked my mom onece if she ever read it and she said no need I have a priest. Can a catholic tell me if they believe the pope is sinless?

jkcerda
September 10th, 2010, 05:58 PM
Last time I was in a Catholic church was when my dad died 2000(He came to Christ 2 weeks before he died)No Bibles in the pews ...the only Bibles were the ones My wife and I and kids had and the priest.. I asked my mom onece if she ever read it and she said no need I have a priest. Can a catholic tell me if they believe the pope is sinless?the Pope is the biggest sinner of them all.
there are no Bibles inthe pews, does NOT mean church goers are not encouraged to read them.


those who dont know about things are the ones who usually dont ASK & just ASSUME.

what PM said is correct.

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 06:01 PM
Last time I was in a Catholic church was when my dad died 2000(He came to Christ 2 weeks before he died)No Bibles in the pews ...the only Bibles were the ones My wife and I and kids had and the priest.. I asked my mom onece if she ever read it and she said no need I have a priest. Can a catholic tell me if they believe the pope is sinless?I agree no bibles in the pews. If you want a Bible just ask the priest for one. They have them there. Some people are just old school. I don't think the Pope is considered sinless. If he was sinless every Pope would become a saint after they die and they don't. They do however believe that his decisions are always "correct" and not to be questioned.

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 06:10 PM
Here is good one for you. Have you never heard of a Bible study group in a Catholic Church? They usually meet during the week and discuss the bible and what it means. Also Catochism is basically a study of both Bible and Catholic Church and what goes on in a mass and why.

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 06:19 PM
I agree no bibles in the pews. If you want a Bible just ask the priest for one. They have them there. Some people are just old school. I don't think the Pope is considered sinless. If he was sinless every Pope would become a saint after they die and they don't. They do however believe that his decisions are always "correct" and not to be questioned.

Just my thought, Punch, but if you have to ASK the priest to have access to a Bible in Church, then I'm having a hard time seeing how READING the Bible is encouraged. :dontknow:

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 06:20 PM
Here is good one for you. Have you never heard of a Bible study group in a Catholic Church? They usually meet during the week and discuss the bible and what it means. Also Catochism is basically a study of both Bible and Catholic Church and what goes on in a mass and why.

When I went to catechism, I was never asked to bring a Bible, nor do I remember any of the other catechumens bringing one. Adult catechumens may be different?

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 06:36 PM
When I went to catechism, I was never asked to bring a Bible, nor do I remember any of the other catechumens bringing one. Adult catechumens may be different?I went through it as a adult as a condition of getting married even though I was a Catholic from birth. The Bible was both read and discussed there. (Maybe not cover to cover mind you)

hunt1up
September 10th, 2010, 06:39 PM
When I went to catechism, I was never asked to bring a Bible, nor do I remember any of the other catechumens bringing one. Adult catechumens may be different?

As a kid, we never read the bible in catechism. We learned the works of mercy and such. What is a sin and what is not. My mom, still a pretty devout Catholic attends bible studies. They have bibles and other books.

jkcerda
September 10th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Just my thought, Punch, but if you have to ASK the priest to have access to a Bible in Church, then I'm having a hard time seeing how READING the Bible is encouraged. :dontknow:


When I went to catechism, I was never asked to bring a Bible, nor do I remember any of the other catechumens bringing one. Adult catechumens may be different?

not ALL churches are teh same :doh:, ASK and you shall receive.
Mexico, FEW Churches have Bibles laying out there, ask for one and you get one, pretty simple.

ebonarcher
September 10th, 2010, 07:07 PM
Usually doing mass they read a section from the bible and the priest will talk about it. Not always but most sunday's.
The catachism was used to simplify what the bible was about. That does not that the whole church is wrong. I believe that Sister Thertica was one of the holiest people of our times. Even if she was a member of the Roman Catholic church. Just that there is an awful lot of bad in that orginization.

jkcerda
September 10th, 2010, 07:10 PM
Usually doing mass they read a section from the bible and the priest will talk about it. Not always but most sunday's.
The catachism was used to simplify what the bible was about. That does not that the whole church is wrong. I believe that Sister Thertica was one of the holiest people of our times. Even if she was a member of the Roman Catholic church. Just that there is an awful lot of bad in that orginization.

and it goes alllllll they way to the guy with the pointy hat :aww:

ebonarcher
September 10th, 2010, 07:21 PM
so how many bibles do those whom have perished need ? Do they pick them up themselves ?
I'm hoping you meant parishioners?

sorry I could not resist.

ebonarcher
September 10th, 2010, 07:27 PM
Here is good one for you. Have you never heard of a Bible study group in a Catholic Church? They usually meet during the week and discuss the bible and what it means. Also Catochism is basically a study of both Bible and Catholic Church and what goes on in a mass and why.

If you do a search you will find that a catochism is a summery of bible and church doctrine.

sticshooter
September 10th, 2010, 07:42 PM
I agree no bibles in the pews. If you want a Bible just ask the priest for one. They have them there. Some people are just old school. I don't think the Pope is considered sinless. If he was sinless every Pope would become a saint after they die and they don't. They do however believe that his decisions are always "correct" and not to be questioned.I am kinda sure that roman catholic church teaches he is Infallible(sp) also teach mary is a co-redeemer. And anyone who is in Christ(saved) is a saint. That is in scipture.

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 07:47 PM
not ALL churches are teh same :doh:, ASK and you shall receive.
Mexico, FEW Churches have Bibles laying out there, ask for one and you get one, pretty simple.

Okay, Juan, maybe it would be helpful for you to reread the comments in CONTEXT...

I was responding to the idea that the catholic church ENCOURAGES people to read their Bibles. But they don't make them available, and I personally was NEVER told that I should read my Bible. It's hard to call that ENCOURAGING people to read the Bible. Remember, the Bible is CENTRAL to the faith as it is the revealed word of God, so :doh: right back atcha! :wink:

hunt1up
September 10th, 2010, 07:47 PM
so how many bibles do those whom have perished need ? Do they pick them up themselves ?
I'm hoping you meant parishioners?

sorry I could not resist.

Assuming that was for me, they didn't teach spelling in CCD. :shade: And to be honest, I could care less how it's spelled.

BUCKSTER
September 10th, 2010, 08:34 PM
I am kinda sure that roman catholic church teaches he is Infallible(sp) also teach mary is a co-redeemer. And anyone who is in Christ(saved) is a saint. That is in scipture.

Hey stic I'll try to explain what your talking about but I am not a Catholic......

it's called papal infallibillity......as I understand it it means that the Pope is the Shepard of the flock on earth.....the popes are the Peter of the here and now....they are to teach the moral and spiritual teachings of the bible just as Peter did.......they are not sinless just as Peter was not sinless and their teachings must be backed up by the bible ......the "church" is gods word and is infallible thus you have the doctrine of infallibility. and further if a Pope or Bishop can {back} up his teachings with biblical scripture then his teachings are infallible by proxy.

maybe a practicing Cathoilc who knows more on the subject will inject themselves into this conversation.

sticshooter
September 10th, 2010, 09:01 PM
Hey stic I'll try to explain what your talking about but I am not a Catholic......

it's called papal infallibillity......as I understand it it means that the Pope is the Shepard of the flock on earth.....the popes are the Peter of the here and now....they are to teach the moral and spiritual teachings of the bible just as Peter did.......they are not sinless just as Peter was not sinless and their teachings must be backed up by the bible ......the "church" is gods word and is infallible thus you have the doctrine of infallibility. and further if a Pope or Bishop can {back} up his teachings with biblical scripture then his teachings are infallible by proxy.

maybe a practicing Cathoilc who knows more on the subject will inject themselves into this conversation.

Thanks buckster. But that might be the way they teach now but back 20 years ago or more it was not. They did alot of things that were not scipture. One being that you can pay to sin and be forgiven. My dads old Catholic Bible says it right inside the first few pages. Not bashing them just stateing a fact.

Pierre Couture
September 10th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Hey stic I'll try to explain what your talking about but I am not a Catholic......

it's called papal infallibillity......as I understand it it means that the Pope is the Shepard of the flock on earth.....the popes are the Peter of the here and now....they are to teach the moral and spiritual teachings of the bible just as Peter did.......they are not sinless just as Peter was not sinless and their teachings must be backed up by the bible ......the "church" is gods word and is infallible thus you have the doctrine of infallibility. and further if a Pope or Bishop can {back} up his teachings with biblical scripture then his teachings are infallible by proxy.

maybe a practicing Cathoilc who knows more on the subject will inject themselves into this conversation.

Technically, the Pope's infallibility only concerns matters of dogma. Outside of the Catholic dogma, the Pope is not considered infallible. He might tend to think he is, but no cigar for him.

Seattlepop
September 10th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Wow, oldie but goodie indeed.

Pope: IIRC, the Church has its Dogma and then there is Divine Revelation. The Pope can speak to Divine Revelation which is what makes his "infallibility" so special to the Church. In other words, he could wake up tomorrow and allow priests to marry due to a Divine Revelation.

Besides the Pope speaking for God (:rolleyes:), The main differences between the Catholic Church and other Christian sects, practically speaking, again IIRC, is

1. transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation (the body and blood of Christ is real vs symbolic)
2. intercession of the Saints (the Saints provide an express prayer-lane to God)

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, ding-ding-ding. *sigh*

BUCKSTER
September 10th, 2010, 09:36 PM
Thanks buckster. But that might be the way they teach now but back 20 years ago or more it was not. They did alot of things that were not Scripture. One being that you can pay to sin and be forgiven. My dads old Catholic Bible says it right inside the first few pages. Not bashing them just stating a fact.

Your gonna have to tell me exactly what your dads bible says about paying ones way out of sin..........that's new to me..... Stic you can't say it a fact that Catholics can pay their way out of sin simply cause your dads bible has that written it it with out giving us all the exact wording.



Again when you say that maybe the way they taught it 20 years ago share with us your knowledge of how they did it prior to 20 years ago........

Indychris
September 10th, 2010, 09:49 PM
Wow, oldie but goodie indeed.

Pope: IIRC, the Church has its Dogma and then there is Divine Revelation. The Pope can speak to Divine Revelation which is what makes his "infallibility" so special to the Church. In other words, he could wake up tomorrow and allow priests to marry due to a Divine Revelation.

Besides the Pope speaking for God (:rolleyes:), The main differences between the Catholic Church and other Christian sects, practically speaking, again IIRC, is

1. transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation (the body and blood of Christ is real vs symbolic)
2. intercession of the Saints (the Saints provide an express prayer-lane to God)

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, ding-ding-ding. *sigh*

Actually, clerical celibacy, I believe, isn't dogma, but church discipline. As for papal infallibility, as I believe has been mentioned, it is limited to those statements made 'ex-cathedra', or from the chair (of Peter). In other words, any official statement from the Pope regarding faith, morals or doctrine is technically considered ex-cathedra. Unfortunately there are times when the interpretation of ex-cathedra isn't exactly crystal clear. In fact, a few years before he died, John Paul II made a statement in which some were debating whether or not his pronouncement met the criteria for infallibility. For the life of me I can't remember what the statement was, but I'm sure it'll come to me soon. Once an ex cathedra statement has been made, it becomes part of the unchangeable sacred magisterium.

Pierre Couture
September 10th, 2010, 09:50 PM
Your gonna have to tell me exactly what your dads bible says about paying ones way out of sin..........that's new to me..... Stic you can't say it a fact that Catholics can pay their way out of sin simply cause your dads bible has that written it it with out giving us all the exact wording.



Again when you say that maybe the way they taught it 20 years ago share with us your knowledge of how they did it prior to 20 years ago........


It used to be called an indulgence Buckster, a way to pay financially for your sins to be "forgiven"

BUCKSTER
September 10th, 2010, 09:59 PM
[QUOTE=Pierre Couture;1058761073]It used to be called an indulgence Buckster, a way to pay financially for your sins to be "forgiven"[/Q


ya, I was just reading about that apperently was quite the thing in the 1500's and their is a Manuel for it.....and it appears it is becoming cool again.....

But it's not exactly just here here is 50 bucks and you get a get out of helll card.....


and you all wonder why I don't wanna play in all the Christan reindeer games ;)

MIKEY CUSTOM-G
September 10th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Catholics YES are christians because they understand Jesus is the redeemer of the world,sent by God as the answer to all of what mankind would need to be reconciled back to God.

The difference between catholics which means "universal" and other christians is simple "doctrine". doctrine means "teaching". Catholic have a different twist in their catecesim or teaching then other christian sects. Some but not limited would include praying to other people such as Mary and other "glorified saints". having a continuation of the local "high priest" from the jewish tradition to assist you in your pennace of sacrifice for your sins. And one of the big ones is that this local priest is to divide the word of God up and not anyone else in the congregation.

Punch_Master
September 10th, 2010, 10:01 PM
It used to be called an indulgence Buckster, a way to pay financially for your sins to be "forgiven"Or just plain old penance

BUCKSTER
September 10th, 2010, 10:12 PM
Or just plain old penance

no I think pennance is far simpler then indulgences.

I was taught penance confess the sin, admit it was wrong and you feel bad, then go do a few rosary (Hail Mary's Our Fathers) whilst kneeling.......don't think they ever taught give the priest 5 bucks, andgo and sin no more .........;)

Spreggy
September 10th, 2010, 10:53 PM
Catholics YES are christians because they understand Jesus is the redeemer of the world,sent by God as the answer to all of what mankind would need to be reconciled back to God.

The difference between catholics which means "universal" and other christians is simple "doctrine". doctrine means "teaching". Catholic have a different twist in their catecesim or teaching then other christian sects. Some but not limited would include praying to other people such as Mary and other "glorified saints". having a continuation of the local "high priest" from the jewish tradition to assist you in your pennace of sacrifice for your sins. And one of the big ones is that this local priest is to divide the word of God up and not anyone else in the congregation.

Mikey my friend, how are you? Long time.
One thing I want to point out is that the Catholics were first, and your statements seem to have the feeling of them being some new-fangled sect like the American brands. It's Peter's church, remember, the guy who lived with Jesus for a few years? They have no different twists, everyone else does. They are the original twist, if you will.

sticshooter
September 10th, 2010, 11:04 PM
Mikey my friend, how are you? Long time.
One thing I want to point out is that the Catholics were first, and your statements seem to have the feeling of them being some new-fangled sect like the American brands. It's Peter's church, remember, the guy who lived with Jesus for a few years? They have no different twists, everyone else does. They are the original twist, if you will.

Peter was not a catholic. the Church is Christ and believers. The catholic church had changed over the years. there is a long history that I would bet alot of people on here know nothing about.

Indychris
September 11th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Peter was not a catholic. the Church is Christ and believers. The catholic church had changed over the years. there is a long history that I would bet alot of people on here know nothing about.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/typotux%20(37).gif

jnwaco
September 11th, 2010, 12:39 AM
While I disagree with many specific Catholic beliefs, I believe they're Christians, too. It seems that God has allowed just enough variety (through simplicity) for all people to find a denomination that they are comfortable with. Universality does not have to mean uniformity, and I think that's one of God's blessings.

tpoof
September 11th, 2010, 09:38 AM
I won't unite with the pope and catholic dogma, but am happy to fellowship with believers from the roman catholic church.

Indychris
September 11th, 2010, 09:45 AM
I won't unite with the pope and catholic dogma, but am happy to fellowship with believers from the roman catholic church.

And I do believe there are true believers within the rc tradition, tpoof, but I do have concerns for those who accept and agree with the complete dogma of the rc organization, such as the teachings handed down from the council at Trent. There are some doctrines there that I believe are simply inconsistent and incompatible with Biblical Christianity as some of them flat out contradict the finished work of Christ and the shame of the cross that he bore on our behalf.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_peace.gif

MoBo Act 4:12
September 11th, 2010, 10:53 AM
And I do believe there are true believers within the rc tradition, tpoof, but I do have concerns for those who accept and agree with the complete dogma of the rc organization, such as the teachings handed down from the council at Trent. There are some doctrines there that I believe are simply inconsistent and incompatible with Biblical Christianity as some of them flat out contradict the finished work of Christ and the shame of the cross that he bore on our behalf.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_peace.gif

My stance as well Chris...............

Warbow
September 11th, 2010, 10:58 AM
While I disagree with many specific Catholic beliefs, I believe they're Christians, too. It seems that God has allowed just enough variety (through simplicity) for all people to find a denomination that they are comfortable with. Universality does not have to mean uniformity, and I think that's one of God's blessings.

But do you believe that they are Christians who will go to heaven? Can one get to heaven by following the precepts of the Catholic Church and nothing more?

sticshooter
September 11th, 2010, 11:13 AM
But do you believe that they are Christians who will go to heaven? Can one get to heaven by following the precepts of the Catholic Church and nothing more? Only way to heaven is Christ nothing added and nothing taken away. No one gets to heaven by them being good. Scipture is very clear on that. man has added his one rules to scripture. And that is a no no.

jnwaco
September 11th, 2010, 03:12 PM
But do you believe that they are Christians who will go to heaven?
Sure, many Catholics will go to heaven. Just as will the native South American who accepts Christ but is completely unfamiliar with deep theology.


Can one get to heaven by following the precepts of the Catholic Church and nothing more?
Well, since part of those precepts is accepting Christ, I believe they can.

sticshooter
September 11th, 2010, 06:36 PM
Sure, many Catholics will go to heaven. Just as will the native South American who accepts Christ but is completely unfamiliar with deep theology.


Well, since part of those precepts is accepting Christ, I believe they can.See I look at what they do and say are they trusting Chris like a saved person trusts Christ. I mean they dont pray to Christ they pray to mary and look to the saints for help. When the only one who can help/hear there prays is Christ.. The word says there is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. So if they are praying to someone else other then Christ who are they trusting?

jnwaco
September 11th, 2010, 07:22 PM
See I look at what they do and say are they trusting Chris like a saved person trusts Christ. I mean they dont pray to Christ they pray to mary and look to the saints for help. When the only one who can help/hear there prays is Christ.. The word says there is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. So if they are praying to someone else other then Christ who are they trusting?

That's one of the things I disagree with regarding Catholicism, but I think they also pray to Jesus.

sticshooter
September 11th, 2010, 07:55 PM
That's one of the things I disagree with regarding Catholicism, but I think they also pray to Jesus. Well my whole family is Catholic and never heard them pray to anyone but mary and the saints. And when i was going to church with them never heard anyone pray to Jesus. It was always praying to mary to intercede for them.

jnwaco
September 11th, 2010, 08:08 PM
Well my whole family is Catholic and never heard them pray to anyone but mary and the saints. And when i was going to church with them never heard anyone pray to Jesus. It was always praying to mary to intercede for them.

That is troubling, I concede. Christ didn't say "None come to the Father except through me... oh, and Mary, and the Saints."

MIKEY CUSTOM-G
September 11th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Mikey my friend, how are you? Long time.
One thing I want to point out is that the Catholics were first, and your statements seem to have the feeling of them being some new-fangled sect like the American brands. It's Peter's church, remember, the guy who lived with Jesus for a few years? They have no different twists, everyone else does. They are the original twist, if you will.

Spreggy my brother !!! How have you been ???

what you are saying and what many catholics also say is a misconception. Christianity in its originality was non-denominational. Jesus had no denomination,,,,nor did Paul,Peter,John,James,Barnabas ,Apollos,Luke or any other of the first to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Catholics are the 1st DENOMINATION,,,,not the first sects of christians. I do not refer to myself as a "protestant" like so many other of my beloved christian brothers and sisters. I have nothing to protest against catholicism,,,I'm a christian who follows after Jesus from HIS earthly ministry until today benefitted by the scriptures HE inspired HIS followers to pen,,,,starting with Moses (or Job as many believe was the first writing) all the way thru to John's revelation of Jesus Christ.

So my following of Jesus is based on HIM,,,,,not on any other group of organized brothers who made denominations. I again have no issue with them,,,I was ONCE a catholic but realized my roots were not rooted far enough back to Jesus and made the change.

I also have no protest against any other sect of christianity including catholicism,calvinism,pentecos talism and not limited to them either. I am Pro Jesus,,,period and one who read and continues to read HIS word and lives it out as best I can.

What another sect would call into their "doctrine" or "teaching" if I do not find biblical grounds to it,,,I don't protest,,,I just don't partake because the directive is not given fully from the bible. This would include but not limited to praying TO anyone else,,, whether alive or dead other than God, or placing a man over and above another man as someone who is holier than another,,, clearly spoken by those who were very close to Jesus(Paul and Peter) and rejected anyone to worship them as such a person.

BTW I'm headed up to Connecticut Monday the 13th to hunt. Also bought my New York State license to shoot a few geese :thumbs_up

Hope all is well Spreggs...How far away from western Connecticut are ya ??? My brother takes me to a shop in New York that has changed owners over the years,,,but is still going strong as one of the best archery shops around,,,,forget the name but its close to Connecticut.

MIKEY CUSTOM-G
September 11th, 2010, 08:44 PM
But do you believe that they are Christians who will go to heaven? Can one get to heaven by following the precepts of the Catholic Church and nothing more?

My opinion War is NO. You cannot get to heaven in any other way if it does not include Jesus as your Lord and Savior. These are not my words but God's words.

Again I am not the judge as to who will or will not enter into "HIS rest",,,HE will be that Judge. But from my reading and comprehension of HIS word,,,which is the bible,,,It clearly states that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved (Prophet Joel),,,if you profess with your mouth and mean it in your heart that Jesus Christ died on the cross and God raised Him from the dead you will be saved (paraphrased from Romans 10:9),,,

"I am the truth,the way and the life"

" you refuse me before men ,I will refuse you before MY FATHER",

Jews say there will come ONE who will tell us all things Jesus said I AM HE"

" I AM the LIGHT of the world",

"Today salvation has come into his house for he also is a son of abraham",

"I AM the LORD of the sabbath"

quoted by Jesus,

So simply it is Jesus who saves. This is why we teach repentence of sin to all men in the name of Jesus....

sticshooter
September 12th, 2010, 09:32 PM
my opinion war is no. You cannot get to heaven in any other way if it does not include jesus as your lord and savior. These are not my words but god's words.

Again i am not the judge as to who will or will not enter into "his rest",,,he will be that judge. But from my reading and comprehension of his word,,,which is the bible,,,it clearly states that whoever calls upon the name of the lord will be saved (prophet joel),,,if you profess with your mouth and mean it in your heart that jesus christ died on the cross and god raised him from the dead you will be saved (paraphrased from romans 10:9),,,

"i am the truth,the way and the life"

" you refuse me before men ,i will refuse you before my father",

jews say there will come one who will tell us all things jesus said i am he"

" i am the light of the world",

"today salvation has come into his house for he also is a son of abraham",

"i am the lord of the sabbath"

quoted by jesus,

so simply it is jesus who saves. This is why we teach repentence of sin to all men in the name of jesus....

aaaamen brother!

overcomer401965
September 12th, 2010, 10:42 PM
I believe Paul warned of others who preach a different Jesus than what he preached.

Some preach a Jesus that has a another mediator other than himself (Mary).

2 Cor. 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Stargazer
September 13th, 2010, 05:09 AM
Maybe those who are hung up on the idea of sects as being important should put the bible to one side and read 'Gulliver's Travels' by Jonathan Swift instead.

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 08:54 AM
I believe Paul warned of others who preach a different Jesus than what he preached.

Some preach a Jesus that has a another mediator other than himself (Mary).

2 Cor. 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

But the Catholics use the scripture 5:8 in Revelations as the {reason} to pray to Saints as well as 1 timothy 2:1-2. So let me ask you all this do you all ask people here on Earth to pray for you or for family and friends and even strangers? Why do you do that if no one but Jesus can be an intercessory to them or you?

Catholics asking Mary, or St Peter, Or whomever to help them in their time of need is the same thing many Christans do when they ask for others to pray for them or their family.....


Buckster always and forever perplexed at how it's ok for them to do religious things but not others......

Indychris
September 13th, 2010, 09:40 AM
But the Catholics use the scripture 5:8 in Revelations as the {reason} to pray to Saints as well as 1 timothy 2:1-2. So let me ask you all this do you all ask people here on Earth to pray for you or for family and friends and even strangers? Why do you do that if no one but Jesus can be an intercessory to them or you?

Catholics asking Mary, or St Peter, Or whomever to help them in their time of need is the same thing many Christans do when they ask for others to pray for them or their family.....


Buckster always and forever perplexed at how it's ok for them to do religious things but not others......

ZSNyiSetZ8Y

sticshooter
September 13th, 2010, 09:50 AM
But the Catholics use the scripture 5:8 in Revelations as the {reason} to pray to Saints as well as 1 timothy 2:1-2. So let me ask you all this do you all ask people here on Earth to pray for you or for family and friends and even strangers? Why do you do that if no one but Jesus can be an intercessory to them or you?

Catholics asking Mary, or St Peter, Or whomever to help them in their time of need is the same thing many Christans do when they ask for others to pray for them or their family.....


Buckster always and forever perplexed at how it's ok for them to do religious things but not others...... I only ask people to pray for me that i know are belivers(them who know that Jesus is the one to pray to.) Lets say that someone dies and goes to Heaven. And after a few years one of there loved ones die,Father ,mother wife child. They dont get to heaven they were nonbelivers. That person that is in heaven would be crushed..right? That is if they knew there loved one did not make it. Could be they will never know? there is no sarrow in heaven if there was it would not be heaven. Same with prayting to peole who have died. They would know all the hardships one is going through. Jesus and HE alone is the go between for man and God.

overcomer401965
September 13th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Dont reckon those I ask to pray for me are dead. Scripture says there is no mediator other than Christ. Other than that, I will not bow down too and kiss the toe of another man, even Peter himself forbid one in the scripture to bow down to him. I will not pray to a statue (idol). Anyone who does penance is saying that Christs death wasnt enough. Where is purgatory in scripture? Why do you have to pay some one to pray for them do get them out? Guess the prayers to Mary werent answered if there there in the first place.

rambo
September 13th, 2010, 10:14 AM
IMHO, all this praying to Mary and the Saints and confessing your sins to another man do nothing but take away from the deity of Christ. The bible says that after the ressurection, Jesus went to Heaven and sits at the Right hand of the Father making intercessions for us with groanings that cannot be uttered.

IMHO, it is sacrilige to do so. Not even mentioning the whole idolatry thing with all the statues and rosaries, etc. When Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent and the need for the high priest went away....no more need for anyone to make intercession on our behalf.

I believe you pray to God in Jesus name only.

New
Exactly, When the veil in the temple was rent or "torn", When Jesus DIED, that was the symbolism that we NO LONGER have t go through Priest or any other person to reach the Father GOD. THrough Jesus we have a "Direct line" to our Heavenly Father.

I definately dont want to bash or judge anyones opinion, but my heart hurts for people who go their WHole life , missing out on a TRUE RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ because they are stuck in the legalisms of a certain church or denomination...

JESUS is most definately ALIVE and Well and waiting for a Relationship with YOU!!! It is the most wonderful thing you can experience in this life and His direction, through the Holy Spirit, is amazing if we do our part and Surrender "our" wants and fears and truly seek Him.

Ask him into your heart, Ask him to forgive you of your sins, He, through the Holy Spirit, Will live in you and you will see life soo differently! You start seeing things through "His" eyes instead of the "worlds" eyes. He also gives you the strength to "Turn" from your sins if you surrender your heart and mind to him.

I am NOT saying you will be perfect! But if your struggling with things in your life, he gives you an amazing strength to overcome and "Turn" from your sins... IT IS WONDERFUL!!!!!!!

Turn your eyes above and Surrender to him... You will never be the same!! :)

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 10:33 AM
I only ask people to pray for me that i know are believers(them who know that Jesus is the one to pray to.) Lets say that someone dies and goes to Heaven. And after a few years one of there loved ones die,Father ,mother wife child. They dont get to heaven they were nonbelievers. That person that is in heaven would be crushed..right? That is if they knew there loved one did not make it. Could be they will never know? there is no sarrow in heaven if there was it would not be heaven. Same with praying to peole who have died. They would know all the hardships one is going through. Jesus and HE alone is the go between for man and God.

Again your asking people to pray for you why? Why would you need others to pray for you if Jesus is the only way and you need no other intercessory to hear your needs or to help you? Your contradict your self stic.

If what the Catholics do is worng then so too is what your do. Your both ask or {using} others to intercede on your behalf. And I'm guessing you and the overcomer401965 haven't a clue as to what Hail Mar's prayer is or says...

Hail Mary Full of Grace the lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is they fruit of thy womb Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

This pray comes form a few place in the bible.....see Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:41

If you guys honestly think that your asking others to pray on your behalf is different then what catholics do ......I gotta laugh.....casue it is in no way different....you both asking for others to help you out with God......

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 10:40 AM
overcomer if you really want to know about how the Catholics think you can read this....

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#tradition-I

here's a snippet of how there is a purgetory> full page of scripture reference that explain why the Catholics believe in a purgatory


Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

1BowHuntnChick
September 13th, 2010, 11:46 AM
Catholics are Christians, just like Baptists, Methodists, etc.

sticshooter
September 13th, 2010, 11:47 AM
Again your asking people to pray for you why? Why would you need others to pray for you if Jesus is the only way and you need no other intercessory to hear your needs or to help you? Your contradict your self stic.

If what the Catholics do is worng then so too is what your do. Your both ask or {using} others to intercede on your behalf. And I'm guessing you and the overcomer401965 haven't a clue as to what Hail Mar's prayer is or says...

Hail Mary Full of Grace the lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is they fruit of thy womb Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

This pray comes form a few place in the bible.....see Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:41

If you guys honestly think that your asking others to pray on your behalf is different then what catholics do ......I gotta laugh.....casue it is in no way different....you both asking for others to help you out with God...... Good one Buckster here is alink the will dioa better job then I. Hope this helps ya.


http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 12:00 PM
Good one Buckster here is alink the will dioa better job then I. Hope this helps ya.


http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.

Ah so say you and that guy ;) let me ask you this Stic does your wife cut her hair and does she wear pants? Cause I'm sure you know of other Christians who are not allowed by virtue of their interpretation of the biblical scripture that they women parishioners are not to cut their hair nor wear pants.....

DO you see the correlation I make between that interpretation and what is done as with what Catholics do .......

Point is who's to say if your living your life 100% right Whit Christ/God?????? Who's to say that your interpretation of the Scriptures are 100% Right with God?

Plus I gave a whole page of scripture on how the Catholic perceive they are right in the praying to Saint to help them out......

you'll see th elink in a reply to oevercommer.....

Indychris
September 13th, 2010, 12:05 PM
Again your asking people to pray for you why? Why would you need others to pray for you if Jesus is the only way and you need no other intercessory to hear your needs or to help you? Your contradict your self stic.

If what the Catholics do is worng then so too is what your do. Your both ask or {using} others to intercede on your behalf. And I'm guessing you and the overcomer401965 haven't a clue as to what Hail Mar's prayer is or says...

Hail Mary Full of Grace the lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is they fruit of thy womb Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death

This pray comes form a few place in the bible.....see Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:41

If you guys honestly think that your asking others to pray on your behalf is different then what catholics do ......I gotta laugh.....casue it is in no way different....you both asking for others to help you out with God......

Uhm, call me crazy, but this seems just a tad different than asking someone to pray for me. :doh:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SFVXRCTTL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

1BowHuntnChick
September 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM
Where I'm from, we only have one Catholic Church in the entire area. Can't tell you that much about them! We are mainly Southern Baptists :)

sticshooter
September 13th, 2010, 12:57 PM
Uhm, call me crazy, but this seems just a tad different than asking someone to pray for me. :doh:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SFVXRCTTL._SL500_AA280_.jpg brother ya beat me to it.LOL Another thing I see alot when i have been in a Cotholic church or hospital is Images of mary all decked out like a queen and then Jesus dead hanging on the cross. Jesus rose and is not dead but they choose not to show that. that always bothered me.

Blood_Trail
September 13th, 2010, 01:10 PM
I caught this thread a little late. THe only problem I have with Catholics is the Virgin Mary. Christ had brothers and sisters, so I guess that doesn't make her a virgin, now does it? I find it interesting that Jesus never refers to Mary as "mother" in the bible, too.

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 01:11 PM
And that is why there are so many sects of your religion....you all can't decided who's worship God in the right way so every does it their way. with their own rituals and make up.....

Let see intercessory prayer and medal wearings for that sect,
Long hair and skirts for that this sects,
Grape juice and saltine crackers to symbolizes Jesus,
Wine and wafers for others to symbolize Jesus
No music at some chruchs some can have singing but no instuments,
Female preachers for some, not so much for others.........

I could go on but you all know how your sects very.......

And I'll say this generally speaking you all condem each other for not following your particular flavor of grapejuice/wine.......:thumbs_up

Blood_Trail
September 13th, 2010, 01:18 PM
And that is why there are so many sects of your religion....you all can't decided who's worship God in the right way so every does it their way. with their own rituals and make up.....

Let see intercessory prayer and medal wearings for that sect,
Long hair and skirts for that this sects,
Grape juice and saltine crackers to symbolizes Jesus,
Wine and wafers for others to symbolize Jesus
No music at some chruchs some can have singing but no instuments,
Female preachers for some, not so much for others.........

I could go on but you all know how your sects very.......

And I'll say this generally speaking you all condem each other for not following your particular flavor of grapejuice/wine.......:thumbs_up

True, you ahve a point. But not all Christians worships the same way. It's all about Jesus at the end of the road. How you get there is up to you and your CHRISTIAN religion.

BUCKSTER
September 13th, 2010, 01:21 PM
True, you have a point. But not all Christians worships the same way. It's all about Jesus at the end of the road. How you get there is up to you and your CHRISTIAN religion.

Exactly my point.......thanks!

One thing for sure the Catholics believe Jesus died for your sins and his part of the trinity God-Jesus-Spirit which is and I fairly certain is th whole bases of Christianity

sticshooter
September 13th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Ina nut shell there is only one way. Total TRUST in Christ thats it. If you are trusting Him and something esle you are in trouble. If you teach Christ and this or that to get to heaven you are in trouble.

overcomer401965
September 13th, 2010, 09:07 PM
overcomer if you really want to know about how the Catholics think you can read this....

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#tradition-I

here's a snippet of how there is a purgetory> full page of scripture reference that explain why the Catholics believe in a purgatory

So Christ must not have actually died for sin according to those beliefs. The book of Isaiah is full of scripture that prove other wise.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgression for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, sayin, My council shall stand and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my council from a far country,: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass: I have purposed it, I will also do it.
50:2 ............Is my hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water and dieth for thirst.

overcomer401965
September 13th, 2010, 09:31 PM
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So after people die they do what?

overcomer401965
September 13th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Nothing about purgatory in this scripture.

overcomer401965
September 13th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Catholics church also teaches that it can forgive sin.

Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christs sake hat forgiven you.

According to scriture God wnats His children to come straight to Him for forgiveness of sins, not a church.
Hebrews 4:16
Lest us therfore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Some more verses on God forgiving sin.
Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

All of these scriptures most certainly directly contradict catholic teaching. Reference page 367, #1461, Page 363-364, #1448 of the catechism.

BUCKSTER
September 14th, 2010, 10:55 AM
no newcomer........the Catholics strongly believe that Jesus is God in Flesh and died for your sins.....

It seems that you have no real knowledge of what the Catholics believe. You could take the time to learn about them and their views.

But then why would you you obviously know all there is about God and your ways are the 100% absolute ways....so I'll stop wasting my time with you...since your infallible.....and know everything.......

Indychris
September 14th, 2010, 11:04 AM
no newcomer........the Catholics strongly believe that Jesus is God in Flesh and died for your sins.....

It seems that you have no real knowledge of what the Catholics believe. You could take the time to learn about them and their views.

But then why would you you obviously know all there is about God and your ways are the 100% absolute ways....so I'll stop wasting my time with you...since your infallible.....and know everything.......

Buckster, me thinks you're reacting a bit strongly and personally. I don't think OC has denied that the roman catholic church believes in the deity of Christ or that he died for sin. He does raise some legitimate questions, however, and ones that are not unique to him/her. These questions have been around since the reformation. Read through Luther's Wittenburg theses (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm) and you'll discover some of these same problems raised.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_peace.gif

BUCKSTER
September 14th, 2010, 11:22 AM
Buckster, me thinks you're reacting a bit strongly and personally. I don't think OC has denied that the roman catholic church believes in the deity of Christ or that he died for sin. He does raise some legitimate questions, however, and ones that are not unique to him/her. These questions have been around since the reformation. Read through Luther's Wittenburg theses (http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm) and you'll discover some of these same problems raised.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_peace.gif

Indy.....I'm just not going to waste my time.....I said so much in the post where I said you all have so many sect cause none of you can agree on the "truth" of the bible and choose to interpret it however you all want. That's fine by me.....you all can fight about who's the most Christian of them all.......

Besides it's kinda hard for me to {fight} for one sect particular when I don't believe in your alls tenants in the first place. Seriously I can point out on any one of you alls choose sects how another sect interprets a scripture totally different( which is what I did and what newcomer did).....of course your gonna say your interpreting the correct way and whomever see it their way will say the same.

So that fight can go on for infinity.......I'm checking out of that fight it's a waste......
:cool:

overcomer401965
September 14th, 2010, 11:23 AM
I gave you stuff from your own catechism and I quoted scripture. Apparently you do not agree with your own catholic doctrine.

BUCKSTER
September 14th, 2010, 11:24 AM
I gave you stuff from your own catechism and I quoted scripture. Apparently you do not agree with your own catholic doctrine.

reading comprehension issues......I stated in an earlier post I ain't Catholic...so your fight With the Catholic was wasted......total fail for you huh

Indychris
September 14th, 2010, 11:31 AM
reading comprehension issues......I stated in an earlier post I ain't Catholic...so your fight With the Catholic was wasted......total fail for you huh

Gotta say that made me chuckle. :laugh: