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Twisted Canuck
September 26th, 2007, 02:02 AM
Hey Canucks, Twisted and otherwise....I received the following email tonite and thought it would make an interesting read here, as many of us hunt with bow & rifle as well. I left the writer's name on, but ommited his address, phone and email as I wouldn't want my info splashed all over a forum, but if anyone is interested in contact info they can PM me....

This situation is disturbing on many levels, primarily the ingrained RCMP mindset of applying their authority, and not brooking any arguments from those being detained/charged/arrested....I've seen it a couple of times in the past as well...curious what you all think. TC


On Friday, August 24, 2007, I had an experience with a few members of
the Dawson Creek detachment of the RCMP that I believe the public should
be aware of. It had to do with their incorrect knowledge of the laws
regarding the transportation of unrestricted firearms (hunting rifles)
and the potential illegal treatment of legitimate law abiding citizens
who legally use and own firearms. I have reason to believe that others
who are not thoroughly familiar with the appropriate legislation may
have been unfairly charged and may have lost their personal property and
need to be aware of that.

To set the scene, Jim Kassen and I were heading from Jim's residence
east of Pouce Coupe to hunt moose for the afternoon and evening off the
Wangler Road approximately 40 miles west of Dawson Creek. Our plan was
to go hunting as soon as we finished some business in town. (We both had
a valid hunting licence and a valid Moose Species Licence.) I am retired
after some 32 years with the federal government, most of which were in
management, and Jim Kassen is the recently retired President of Northern
Lights College. While completing our business in town, we were pulled
over by two RCMP constables in a cruiser with lights flashing. Jim had
inadvertently driven straight ahead on 103rd Ave from the left hand turn
lane in front of the Co-op during the very busy pre-noon traffic rush
which was exacerbated by the closure of the traffic circle. As soon as
Jim saw the lights of the police cruiser in the rear view mirror, he
pulled into the first available parking spot while the cruiser pulled in
behind. The cruiser blocked Jim's truck as well as blocked west bound traffic flow on 103rd which was extremely busy. Jim got out of his truck
but was ordered back into his vehicle by one of the constables who
approached the driver's side window and advised Jim of the reasons for
the pull over, i.e., he didn't turn left from the left turn only lane.
The constable then noticed that there were two hunting rifles
(non-restricted firearms) between the passenger and driver's seats. Both
rifles were unloaded with the actions open and the officer could clearly
see this. Her manner changed immediately, she ordered Jim out of and to
the back of his truck while I remained in the passenger seat with my
seat belt on.

The constable inspected both rifles asking where the locking mechanisms
were and I advised that they were not required as both Jim and I had
valid Possession and Acquisition Licences (PAL) and at least one of us
was in the vehicle at all times. She then proceeded to take the firearms
from the vehicle. At that point I asked what she was doing. She advised
that she was seizing the firearms as they were not properly locked up
for transportation and that Jim and I would be charged under the
criminal code for not meeting safe transportation requirements. At this
point I introduced myself advising that I was a federally certified
Master Firearms Instructor fully knowledgeable in the legislation and
regulations regarding the transport, storage and use of all firearms. I
explained that our two non-restricted firearms met all legal
requirements for transportation in an attended vehicle and that if she
took the firearms it would be and is in fact theft of private property
that was being transported legally. Furthermore to take the firearms
without a lawful reason was an abuse of her authority.

In order to meet all legal requirements for transportation of
non-restricted firearms in this case:
1. The firearms must be unloaded - both of our firearms were unloaded
and as additional safety features, but not required by law,
a) the actions were open so any third party who knew anything about
firearms could see they were unloaded and not in the battery or
ready-to-fire position.
b) the firearms were kept below the dash and out of view so anyone
walking or driving by would not be alarmed. The firearms could only be
seen if someone came up to the vehicle and looked down. This, by the
way, is a common method for local firearms owners and hunters to
transport their firearms.

2. The vehicle must be attended by at least one individual who has a
valid PAL or POL - in our case both of us had valid PALs and were in
attendance.
If we left the vehicle which was a pick-up truck, the firearms would
have to be placed out of sight and the area they are in must be locked
(for example covering the firearms with a blanket or jacket and locking
the cab of the
pick-up.) It is not a legal requirement that a non-restricted firearm be
disabled by a locking mechanism while it is being transported.

3. The firearms should be registered even though the time frame legally
requiring registration of non-restricted firearms has been extended by
the current government until May, 2008. - Regardless both our firearms
were registered.


The constable stated that she knew the firearms laws and had several
charges pending for firearms offences of the same nature. Neither Jim
nor I offered any resistance with the exception of my request that she
return the firearms to us, that we did not authorize her to take them,
and that the firearms met all legal requirements for transportation.
Regardless, she took both firearms to her vehicle. She verified the
firearms registration, our PALs, our driver's licenses along with the
fact that both Jim and I had no criminal record (either serious or
misdemeanor) and had been law abiding our whole lives. After confirming
this she also called a back up squad car even though there were two
constables present and we were following all direction given and were
not involved in any illegal activity. While this was occurring, traffic
was delayed on 103rd and the general public had to assume there was a
major police take down of what must be a couple of dangerous criminals.
Meanwhile I remained in the passenger seat of the truck with my seat
belt on.

After the back-up car arrived, the constable came back to our vehicle> and advised Jim she was letting him go on the traffic violation but
would not release the firearms because she was charging us with unsafe
transportation under the criminal code and that her immediate superior
had confirmed the charge. I again advised she was incorrect and that the
firearms must be returned. At this time I removed my seat belt and went
over to her and the other two constables and advised her once more that
she was mistaken and that she should return our firearms. She asked for
proof of the legislation and regulations which I had at my home in
Vernon but not with me. I suggested that we go to her office and pull up
the Canadian Firearms web site which was set up and is maintained by the
RCMP. I advised that the legislation and regulations are accessible
there. While she seemed to be unaware of this site she agreed to try
this.

Jim and I drove to the RCMP station where we were confronted by the
seizing constable's immediate supervisor who proceeded to berate us for
telling his constable that she was wrong and abusing her authority. He
also reiterated that we would not get our firearms back and that we
would be charged under Section 87 of the Criminal Code of Canada. I
again stated my experience and background as well as certification and
that we had done nothing wrong and wanted our firearms returned. I also
asked to bring up the RCMP's Canadian Firearm's website. He refused,
dismissed us, and was closing the reception window when I requested a
meeting with his superior.

10 minutes later I was ushered in alone (Jim was directed to remain in
the reception area) to meet with the Senior Officer in Charge who's
first position, based on information from his subordinates, was that we
were going to be charged. However, he was open to my describing the
circumstances of the firearms and the legal requirements for
transportation. He also had a brochure in his possession from the RCMP's
Firearms Centre which identified the transportation requirements for
both restricted and non-restricted firearms - the Dawson Creek
detachment in error was applying the restricted requirements to
non-restricted firearms. Restricted firearms (handguns etc.) must meet a
much higher level of security for their transportation such as disabling
by a locking mechanism and be in a locked opaque case, not to mention
additional paper work requirements. With the brochure in his possession
as well as confirmation from the police help line it was confirmed that
I was right and that neither Jim nor I had done anything illegal
regarding the transportation of our firearms. The Senior Officer in
Charge advised that our firearms would be immediately released and he
apologized for the mix-up. I went out to the reception area and waited
with Jim for the return of our firearms. I felt we all learned
something: - justice can be obtained by standing your ground,
persevering, and being assertive when your rights have been violated;
the Dawson Creek RCMP now have a clearer understanding of what
constitutes safe transportation and law abiding citizens will have
nothing to fear; and most importantly, a senior member of the force have
proven that he was open to protecting the rights of honest law abiding
citizens - after all we are human and errors do occur.

Everything had been resolved and the matter was finished to everyone's
satisfaction or so I thought. The supervisor brought our firearms out to
us and I thanked him. You can imagine my shock when he bluntly stated to
Jim and I that we would have been treated a lot worse than we were had
he been present at the time our firearms where confiscated. Apparently
in his mind citizens are not allowed to advise RCMP or object when their
rights are being violated and/or the RCMP actions are wrong or illegal,
and anyone who questions them will be treated severely. This belief is
so ingrained that he made the statement to Jim and me together in the
RCMP reception area which has a security camera that monitors and records. At the end of the day, nothing was learned and nothing was
gained! I am gravely concerned that this kind of behavior and treatment
of honest citizens will continue if these attitudes are not addressed.

What occurred was wrong on so many levels:

1. The role of the RCMP is to enforce the laws of the land, not to create
their own laws. If they don't know the firearms laws that have been in place for 15 years and slightly updated 9 years ago in a community with a significant number of firearms owners and hunters, what other laws are
they ignoring or applying inappropriately or illegally?

2. This is an area that attracts hunters from all over the province
as well as all over the world. The activities of firearms owners and hunters
contribute substantially to the local economy. Mistreatment, false
charges and harassment will all have a negative affect. Ignorance of the
law is no excuse for citizens in a court of law and therefore should not
be an excuse for the RCMP. It's a fine line between being ignorant and
acting ignorantly - in this case the seizing constable and immediate
supervisor crossed the line which leads me to believe that this occurs
as a matter of habit, not as a very rare or once in a life-time
situation.

3. By the constable's own statement she has seized firearms from
several
other owners for the same reasons. Many people do not have the
knowledge, the will or the communication skills to defend themselves and
may have lost or will lose their property even though they have done
nothing wrong. In our case the replacement value of the 2 firearms is> approximately $3,000.00.

4. When did it become illegal for a law abiding citizen to advise
the RCMP
that they are wrong and that their actions are wrong? When pointing out
an error, omission, illegal action, etc. why should honest law abiding
citizens be openly intimidated? At the time of the threat the
supervising officer had admitted that a mistake in interpretation had
occurred, been ordered to return the firearms, but at the last moment
added his intimidating comment.

5. At least 7 to 8 person hours of RCMP time and equipment was
spent
trying
to prove that Jim and I had done something wrong instead of simply
applying the law as it stands. A simple look at the RCMP's Canadian
Firearms website, either the "legislation and regulation" section or
"brochure" section would have provided concrete proof of Jim and my
innocence (a 5 to 10 minute exercise at most). Surely this time could
have been better spent on highway patrol or investigating criminal
activities such as break-ins or drug gang activity. But then of course
law abiding citizens, especially seniors who can't move very fast, are
much easier targets.

Twisted Canuck
September 26th, 2007, 02:02 AM
Cont.

6. How can the RCMP earn and maintain respect when they treat two
retired
seniors the way they did even though we posed no threat and were
involved in no illegal activity? If they can treat us the way they did,
I believe this can happen to anyone and probably has happened many times
to law abiding citizens in the Dawson Creek area. What right does the
RCMP have to treat two retired seniors as criminals in an active public
place (seizing their firearms, calling for back-up, impeding traffic)
when they have done nothing wrong or illegal with their firearms. Our
only fault was to state our innocence and to advise the RCMP officer
that her actions and information were wrong. I was raised to respect the
RCMP, and I call many active and retired members friends. When I conduct
a course (CORE or Firearms Safety) I always stress respect for
enforcement as they have a legitimate job to do.
At this stage I can only say that my respect for the RCMP was severely
shaken on the 24th of August, 2007 and it is only people like the Senior
Officer in Charge that allow me to believe there is still some hope.

I wrote this letter hoping that it will be a catalyst that prevents
others from being treated as we were, or at the very least residents of
Dawson Creek will be better prepared to defend themselves when dealing
with the institution that is responsible to protect law abiding
citizens.

Respectfully yours,


J.C. (Jim) Parfrey

jjgsp
September 26th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Did you send this letter any place else? Like to the law making body or police commission?

It amazes me what they decide to pick on. Myself and 4 others have brought charges to the Montreal police against a con artist that took Canadians and Americans for hundreds of thousands of dollars. We supplied reams of documents and list of names of people willing to testify and nothing but nothing has happened for a year and a half. I guess we should have said he had a rifle being properly transported.

Twisted Canuck
September 26th, 2007, 11:22 AM
I personally don't know the gentleman who wrote this, it was forwarded to me by a member of our archery club in Grande Prairie (we are only an hour drive from Dawson Creek where this occured).

I'm guessing that this letter has been sent to quite a number of places, as he is a Master instructor and probably has some connections. I think it is on the 'email' circuit' now, & it will be interesting to see if anything comes of this.

By the looks of the contact info that he included in his letter (which is on the email I received), it was probably originally sent as 'snail mail' so that whoever received it (Commissioner, MP, Rosie O'Donnel...:wink:) could respond to him. Quite the incident.

cath8r
September 26th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I've heard similar stories about the RCMP and local law enforcement in Ontario.
I actually typed in a long story about a guy I worked with that had a bad incident but erased it. The RCMP is not an above board organization. Its sad that I honestly fear sharing that incident it in a public forum.

AK-AZ
September 26th, 2007, 02:52 PM
I have been witness to the fact that there is no such thing as brutality to the RCMP. While in the Yukon in the early nineties for a rodeo, we were at the dance that evening. RCMP came in to arrest someone. This young gentleman cooperated with instructions given to him, locked his hands behind his head and was slammed against a wall and punched in the kidney's for his efforts. We all know that the RCMP aren't little guys either. This was in front of a couple hundred witnesses. I don't know what the guys past history was, he may very well have had a violent episode with the constables, but in this instance, he offered no resistance what so ever, I was 20 feet away when this happened to him.

I fear that this isn't restricted to the RCMP either, there is plenty of video evidence of US police using undue force.

Twisted Canuck
September 26th, 2007, 08:35 PM
My problem with this scenario is the unwillingness (read arrogance) of the attending officer to suppose they have more knowledge/authority than the person they are dealing with, in this case a federally recognized firearms instructor.

As written, the firearms in question had open actions, were unloaded and not in battery position, so no threat. A little respectful dialogue with the seniors in question would have been far better PR than what occured and could have left a far better impression on the gentlemen who were harrassed as far as I am concerned....

I have forwarded the above email to The National at CBC...

Grey Eagle
September 27th, 2007, 09:19 AM
I've been thinking how I wanted to respond to this thread for the last day.

Legally, I can carry an unlocked, non-loaded, uncovered shotgun in my truck right down Yonge street in Downtown Toronto on my way to some geese hunting in S-W Ontario. Would be perfectly legal in doing so, well within my rights. Would I do it, no. Why, because it wouldn't be the most prudent thing to do. And given the current social and political climate surrounding guns in our society I think that doing so would be tantamount to taunting.

Now I understand that Dawson Creek, (or wherever this incident took place) is not Downtown Toronto. I used the example as an extreme. I grew up in Northern Ontario (Timmins) where hunting is a large part of the culture. Heck, back when I was a kid it was a common sight each fall to see Moose heads strapped to the hoods of trucks running through town after a successful hunt. I still return to the area each year to hunt. If I head into town from the bush, I at least cover up my firearms. Do I need to do so, no. Would anyone bat an eye about it, not likely near as much as in Toronto. But I still wouldn't do it. Mostly because it is far easier to waylay any potential concern by the simple act of covering the firearms up.

I'm not condoning the actions of the officers involved, or their lack of knowledge of the laws and how to apply them. I think it is reprehensible that they conducted themselves in this manner, assuming the story is accurate.

However, I also think it was poor judgement on the part of the two gentlemen detained to be transporting weapons in the fashion they did. Right or wrong, they opened themselves up to scrutiny. Though legal to do so, there was no reason to have those firearms uncased and without trigger locks openly displayed in a vehicle when they were 40 miles from their intended hunting area. Just because I can, isn't a reason. That type of behaviour is what leads to further restrictions being placed upon our present liberties. People have to remember the 10-80-10 rule here.

Common sense on both sides here would have gone a long way. JMHO

cath8r
September 27th, 2007, 09:50 AM
I see your point Dennis. Unfortunately the actions and attitudes displayed by the RCMP when they were confronted with the facts about the gun laws proves that they have become a petty and vindictive federally sponsored organization. What is most disturbing is the supersivisors attitude towards taxpaying citizens who stand up for their rights when they abiding by the law.
Always use discretion with the transport and handling of firearms but can we not trust that the RCMP will not abuse our rights if we haven't broken any laws?

Twisted Canuck
September 27th, 2007, 11:54 AM
I also see the point you are making GreyEagle, but if I'm reading the letter correctly, I don't think they were 'flaunting' their weapons; they were between the front seats of the (occupied) pickup, out of site until the officer came right to the window and looked in....

Then again I wasn't there, and I always transport in a rifle case, often as not locked up with the trigger guard still on until I'm at my hunting area....

Either way, the attending officer and supervisor didn't show much in the way of respect to these gents.

TC

Grey Eagle
September 27th, 2007, 12:37 PM
I hear what you are saying TC, and I could easily find the two detainees story of mistreatment from the RCMP plausible. That is concerning, on any level in any form.

But, again, I have to question the intent of the two gentlemen, and the manner in which they conducted themselves through this. Keeping in mind that we are only privy to one side of the story here.

They left a private residence, drove to a town where they conducted business (I assume outside of their vehicle) and then continued on their way to the intended hunting grounds. At what point were the guns exposed to view...... and why prior to getting to their destination? This whole scenario doesn't make sense to me. There is more to it that is not available for our consumption here.

Anyway, just my two cents worth........... nothing more :)

CLASSICHUNTER
September 28th, 2007, 01:50 AM
Gees guys why would they even do what they did , sure they may have been right in question, but why in any ones right mind do what they did in todays society.... I would bet you these guys had cases at home for these guns and also locks .... when you get to the hunting area take them out , unlock them , and don`t waste my tax dollars trying to change the world, you can`t fight city hall and all these guys did was try to press someones buttons, I hunt and own guns registered, locked , and cased... If this guy was an instructor what kind of lesson was he trying to teach.... just my thoughts and we as hunters don`t need the bad press...... sure some of the officers where miss informed but we have nut bars out there doing drive bys etc etc and yes the rest of us are being tossed in with them.....

Bowzone_Mikey
September 28th, 2007, 09:53 PM
this incident took place an hour away from Twisted ...and about 3.5 hours away from me ... I first heard about it on a BC hunting website ... Grey I understand where your coming from but I am willing to bet that you have never been to Dawson Creek ....yes it is as small as it sounds .... Dawson Creek ... Mile zero of the Alaska Hwy... what these two men were doin is perfectly legal ... the rifle wasnt loaded ... they were present in the truck as they were driving at the time they were yanked over ....

what makes a rifle any differant than a CD or a pair of sunglasses ...or a socket set from Canadian tire? ...Damn liberal attitudes is what..."OH MY GOD Its a gun!!!!" Get a grip upon reality ... Guns dont hurt people ...people do ... I am looking out my office window into my work shop and can spot no less than 3 items that can hurl a projectile heavier than a 50 cal round faster and further .... than most rifles on the planet can I put those items in my car and drive downtown? yep I can .....

As I recall the Mounties involved were fresh ... probally from eastern canada persusion (read: liberal) ....Dawson Creek is a small farming and hunting community of about 5000 people ....everyone owns a rifle .... Its truley a way of life ... More so than Timmins (Sorry Grey I have been to Timmins ... Doesnt strike me as a Hunting way of life town...alot of hunters there fer sure ...but its not a way of life there like it is in Dawson Creek)

What is inexcusable is the fact that the RCMP members didnt have a freakin clue about the law the swore to uphold

Grey Eagle
September 29th, 2007, 09:31 AM
As I said Bowzone, what they did was perfectly within their rights, just likely not the smartest thing to do.

A town of 5000 people is not a small village, I live in a town of less than 3500, I hunt deer, turkey around it. I wouldn't dream of carrying a firearm around in my vehicle in the manner in which these gentlemen did. Though I'd be within my rights to do so.

And you are right, the truck they were operating likely presented more of a danger to the public (considering they were pulled over for a traffic violation) than the weapons they had inside. But given public perception about firearms I see no reason to needlessly alarm people and further the anti cause.

It's your choice to pull away from an intersection when your light turns green, without first looking to see if all traffic coming from your left and right have yielded. If you get hit from someone running the light, you'd not be at fault, you may likely be injured or dead, but you'd be well within your rights to do so.

I'm not suggesting that sportsmen sulk into the darkness to conduct our activities in silence, for fear of oppression from liberal minds. What I'm saying is there was no present need for those gentlemen to be conducting themselves in the manner they did.

And Zone, drop the east vs west shiite, it doesn't fly with me.

Cheers, and this will be my last post on this thread..... I'm heading out for several days of deer hunting ;)

Twisted Canuck
September 29th, 2007, 11:21 AM
Now boys, lets all try to get along....:wink:

Its not an east vs west issue for sure, the Mounties will treat you the same anywhere is what I am thinking, and why I posted in the first place. I generally have a high regard and respect for the RCMP, but I expect that they also need to have a proper respect towards the people that they are ultimately here to protect and serve, who pay their way so to speak. They are not a force unto themselves, but they do play that role sometimes. Thats all.

Even when enforcing the law, they need to do it professionally and with respect for the law and the uniform they wear. Granted they have a dangerous job to do, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in a potentially dangerous situation....but traffic stopping seniors and then raking them over while they aren't breaking any serious laws other than traffic ones....c'mom.

cdhunter
September 29th, 2007, 02:15 PM
something thats been overlooked here is the human condition NO BODY likes to be told their wrong and be it east or west liberal or conservative and when they feel they are correct they'll fight to support their point of view. Grey owls right about one thing in this day and age we as hunters must show a sense of responsibility when transporting our weapons this discussion is about rifles but I'm as guilty as the next guy for just tossing my bow in the back of my jeep on my way out to the field and have been pulled over for a routine traffic stop (my front plate sits on my dash) and have been kept a little longer because they spotted my bow some cops just have questions and think its cool others have suspicions and ask for hunting tags a little cooperation without attacking goes along ways all ways leave people with a way out with out having to admitting defeat and you will be surprised by the cooperation you suddenly get. When all else fails stick to your guns because some people don't want/Know how to avoid a fight
:confused:

hoody123
September 29th, 2007, 02:31 PM
As I recall the Mounties involved were fresh ... probally from eastern canada persusion (read: liberal)

First things first: Simply being from the "East" doesn't necessarily mean that you are liberal, secondly being liberal doesn't automatically preclude you from having a grain of common sense! I'm dyed in the wool liberal, but I think what was done to these gentlemen was ridiculous!

I think this is more a commentary on the lack of knowledge of people enforcing laws, and the complexity of attempting to do so in modern society. Getting into policing is far from a complex (or time consuming) process, and because of that, how could an officer POSSIBLY know even a fraction of the laws they are expected to uphold?

Now, it's because lots of learning must be done on the job that I find this incident so sad: The officers involved (both the officer that pulled the gentlemen over, and the senior officer that upheld her decisions) should have maybe considered the fact that they aren't all knowing, but I find this self reflecting quality to RARELY be in the natural make up of individuals who enter law enforcement.

travski
September 29th, 2007, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=Grey Eagle;5409261]
And you are right, the truck they were operating likely presented more of a danger to the public (considering they were pulled over for a traffic violation) than the WEAPONS they had inside. But given public perception about firearms I see no reason to needlessly alarm people and further the anti cause.

OK THIS REALLY p$#@ES ME OFF RIFLES ARE FIREARMS NOT WEAPONS UNTIL THEY ARE USED AS SUCH,

My kitchen knife is a knife unless I use it as a weapon then it is a weapon, my bat is a bat until i beat someones head in for stealing with it then it is a weapon.

I agree with mike on this the cops are supposed to know the rules and enforce them. just because they were wrong with rules they should just admit and appoligize for them.

Out here the Rcmp would not even think of something like that. This is Rural Alberta and stuff like that just would not work. here is a situation that happened to a friend of mine

My friend was out hunting coyotes on a sunday afternoon. His truck wouldnot start and he could not lock it so he did the only thing he could do
he walked home with his rifle on his shoulder. He walked right down main street with the rifle to his house. The Local Rcmp did not even question him about the rifle just asked if he needed help to get his truck going. They new the rules and did not bother him. Why is it some care enough to know the rules and others just want a power grab and make their own set of rules

Travis

Bowzone_Mikey
October 1st, 2007, 12:27 PM
I'm not suggesting that sportsmen sulk into the darkness to conduct our activities in silence, for fear of oppression from liberal minds.

Cheers, and this will be my last post on this thread..... I'm heading out for several days of deer hunting ;)

even tho that was your last post ...from where I am sitting thats exactly what your suggesting.

Granted I dont know you from a hole in the ground ...but from what i am led to beleive you have quite the following of Minions and you are ranked pretty high in the OAA food chain ... maybe i am thinkin of someone else ... at anyrate.. you stating even tho its our right and perfectly legal to do so, we shouldnt because it may offend some one .... That is the biggest load of BS I have ever read .... I find it hard to beleive that anyone in your postion would spew that out their keyboard
You can go Hide in your shroud of darkness if you want ... I am proud to an avid outdoorsman, and a hunter ...if you are ashamed ...then I pity you.

One small step for grey ... One giant leap backwards for Hunters advocacy

:confused:

H.M. Murdock
October 1st, 2007, 02:49 PM
even tho that was your last post ...from where I am sitting thats exactly what your suggesting.

Granted I dont know you from a hole in the ground ...but from what i am led to beleive you have quite the following of Minions and you are ranked pretty high in the OAA food chain ... maybe i am thinkin of someone else ... at anyrate.. you stating even tho its our right and perfectly legal to do so, we shouldnt because it may offend some one .... That is the biggest load of BS I have ever read .... I find it hard to beleive that anyone in your postion would spew that out their keyboard
You can go Hide in your shroud of darkness if you want ... I am proud to an avid outdoorsman, and a hunter ...if you are ashamed ...then I pity you.

One small step for grey ... One giant leap backwards for Hunters advocacy

:confused:


1. How does Dennis donating his time to the Ontario Association of Archers have any thing to do with his opinion how firearms should be transported. This seems to be a very one sided attack on some one who isn't around to defend himself. Why should his opinion be weigh any more or less than anyone else

2. My first impression after reading the original post is that these guys were looking to shoot out of their car. I have several high dollar gun and I alway case them first and foremost to protect them. I live in a rural farming community in Ontario and the only people that are carrying guns in their car out of their case are guys shooting out of their cars. I know this all too well

3. Even if this perfectly legal to transport firearm in this manor I believe this was very poor judgment on the people involved. What would have happened if they were caught out after dark and needed their case?

4. I strongly believe that the RCMP officers along with a lot of other officers across this country were over stepping their rights BUT all sportsman need to present them self in the most positive light that they possibly can . If this were to get out in the news who know what spin would they put on it

Bowzone_Mikey
October 1st, 2007, 03:24 PM
ok ... I see you dont know the law ether .... at no time is a non restricted firearm required to locked and cased while transported exept for the circumstance ... maybe that includes Ont ... I know it includes national parks ...but I know that doesnt include general areas in BC. Its great that you case your highend stuff before you transport it ... but the fact remains ... according to the Firearms act ...you are not required to.

as for my last post ... it was not a onesided attack ... it was one mans opinion ...
You assumed these guys were gonna shoot out of their car ...because someone has done it around you .... Wow ... that blows my mind ... I had respect for you ...but that is quickly dwindling as you seem to like to paint everyone with the same brush.
Now I am all for putting hunters into a positive light blah blah blah ... In fact I am usually the first to step up to bat when it comes to Hunters rights, Land use advocacy and general outdoor recreational advocacy. I am not for "Flaunting" your rifles, Bows, Harvests etc.... But am totally against having to sneak yourself home after a day of hunting under a shroud of darkness just because you might offend some beatnik .... That is a huge step backwards in the fight for hunters and outdoorspersons rights.

Can I assume that the OAA is also involved in Bowhunting issues in Ontario... If so then I can also assume that the OAA would be behind all hunting opportunities in Ontario ... therefore I feel that my comments are warrented.
And furthermore Mr. Murdock ...If your the type of person I once thought you were, and feel the Same as Dennis (in the fact that we must hide our activities) then sir you are a hipporcrite as well

Reed
October 1st, 2007, 05:06 PM
its funny, our local RCMP staff stg. ( I think thatis what he is, he's the big guy at the station anyway)was at out place( off duty:wink:) and he had a .17 between his seats in a soft case. It was not locked, but the mag out and the bolt was open. but you would have had to look hard to see it in the truck anyway.

In our area, it is not uncomon to see rifles in trucks for yotes in the summer. I don't think I would want to drive around brandon with it in plain view if I was not in the truck with it.

On another note, I asked him what we/they thought about AO knifes. His answer was depends who stop you:rolleyes:, him no problem, so of the other officers he has delt with, would have a fit:eek:

Reed

hoody123
October 1st, 2007, 05:24 PM
ok ... I see you dont know the law ether .... at no time is a non restricted firearm required to locked and cased while transported exept for the circumstance ... maybe that includes Ont ... I know it includes national parks ...but I know that doesnt include general areas in BC. Its great that you case your highend stuff before you transport it ... but the fact remains ... according to the Firearms act ...you are not required to.

as for my last post ... it was not a onesided attack ... it was one mans opinion ...
You assumed these guys were gonna shoot out of their car ...because someone has done it around you .... Wow ... that blows my mind ... I had respect for you ...but that is quickly dwindling as you seem to like to paint everyone with the same brush.
Now I am all for putting hunters into a positive light blah blah blah ... In fact I am usually the first to step up to bat when it comes to Hunters rights, Land use advocacy and general outdoor recreational advocacy. I am not for "Flaunting" your rifles, Bows, Harvests etc.... But am totally against having to sneak yourself home after a day of hunting under a shroud of darkness just because you might offend some beatnik .... That is a huge step backwards in the fight for hunters and outdoorspersons rights.

Can I assume that the OAA is also involved in Bowhunting issues in Ontario... If so then I can also assume that the OAA would be behind all hunting opportunities in Ontario ... therefore I feel that my comments are warrented.
And furthermore Mr. Murdock ...If your the type of person I once thought you were, and feel the Same as Dennis (in the fact that we must hide our activities) then sir you are a hipporcrite as well

Wow, friendly guy here... Again, let's address things as they come, Murdock did NOT say that it was illegal, he only said it wasn't a good idea (I concur!). I think the only thing that Dennis was advocating was being as thoughtful as one could be. Simply because something is LEGAL doesn't make it a good idea, I think that's fair advice isn't it?

I certainly didn't read from Dennis' message that hunters should be ashamed and keep that info to themselves.

And whether you want to hear it or not, I'm with Murdock on the GENERAL assumption that people that are carrying uncased guns in their cars are likely shooting from said vehicles. Are all doing it? Of course not, but I'd guess there's a pretty high proportion...

I still think what the RCMP did was way wrong, but I don't see how your attacks on members here helps the situation at all...

Bowzone_Mikey
October 1st, 2007, 06:13 PM
fine ...lets just agree on disagreeing .... But I want to know why its not a good idea ... the only reason put forth so far is that it may offend people. and in my opinion as opposed to triing to enlighten people with their heads in the sand re: the fact that long rifles are nothing to be scared of. but instead feeding that anti sentiment/fear whatever...by going along and going out of your way to hide ....

For the record If I am hunting in my car ... my rifle sits beside me ...if I am in my truck it sits behind me .... why ...both ways allow the easist ways to retrive it for when I get out

That said as i said above I am not for Flaunting (well maybe a little to my buddys when I Harvest an 8 point elk)...but lets get realistic

Ya'll ever see that Denis Leary skit where he goes off about anti smoking ..."you hiding under a blanket in the back of the closet ... the cops are out side ...we have the place surrounded , we know you have the cigarettes" .... Sadly ...Hunting is becoming that way here in Canada .... A freakin Country built upon the fur trade ..... If you wanna stand for it ... go right ahead ... but I will not

Twisted Canuck
October 1st, 2007, 09:45 PM
Ok, let me reiterate....

Now now boys, try to get along!!

I am going to be nice but still take issue with the assumption made that these gentlemen were 'probably shooting from their vehicle'....I reallllly strongly think not. You may have seen it where you are from, I have seen it where I'm from, so we can assume that it happens in the east and west (so its not an east west issue)....

BUT.....the man is a federally liscensed Master Firearms Instructor! You are just not going to make me believe that someone in that position is going to be putting his reputation and credibility on the line like that. Can't see it. I don't know them, I could be wrong, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and people are still innocent until proven guilty, and in this case they knew the law better than the attending officers.

And Mikey, you know I love you like a brother, but I gotta ask if you've been drinking too much coffee...?:wink:

Cheers. TC

H.M. Murdock
October 2nd, 2007, 08:06 AM
In this area it does not seem to matter.

I will share a few incident's that I personally witnessed

1. Two year ago during shotgun deer season I kick a group of 10 hunter off a property which one of them I knew was a police officer. When I approached to group to leave they were not willing, then when I started to write down plate numbers they left. Too add to this two day latter I found some of the same group had been back into the bush chasing a wounded deer. This seems funny to me since there were no bushes around that had permission to hunt in the area.


2. About 6 years a go I was leaving our camp to head out to do some partridge hunting. While walking down a logging trail I came across the game warden I seen earlier in the week but this time he was off duty ridding around in his personal truck with a buddy. I stop to talk and found out it was his day off and was out hunting. He also had two gun uncased in the front seat I could see on had the action closed. While we talking a person jumped out of the truck and shot a partridge. Now this was not the officer but his passenger had a loaded gun in the truck.


The last one I will share for now
I had the oppuritny to go duck hunting with a firearms and hunting safety instructor. While we were out in the boat ducks started to fly. T turned around to see while he wasn't shooting and then I noticed him pulling the plug out his gun. There is only 3 there shells in the gun at time but he modified the magazine tube so he could easily pull the plug out when he wanted to put more shells in and then put the plug back in if the game warden came by


These are just some of the problems that I face while I trying to hunt legally

pintojk
October 2nd, 2007, 08:57 AM
all parties involved could have/should have used better judgement.

Is there a news link that can be attached, if so I'd appreciate it :)

and please let's keep this friendly, we're walking a razors edge here with some of the replies. Just my $0.02

PintoJK

thunderbolt
October 2nd, 2007, 09:53 AM
Actually there are certain times during hunting season when a rifle "MUST" be cased. 1/2 hour after sunset if you're in the woods seems to ring a bell!

cath8r
October 2nd, 2007, 11:04 AM
Try to keep it civil boys. I agree with the folks from out west, aside from the personal attacks of course. What I find the biggest problem is that we are allowing government paid employee's (RCMP, police etc.) to trample our freedoms far too often. We have the law on our side pertaining to uncased firearms in our vehicles. Don't lose sight of that. Government employee's should not be allowed to wrongfully harass us when they know what the laws and rules are. Sure, if we went above and beyond the spirit and letter of the law prevents being harrased, but obeying the law should be enough.
That I feel is the biggest issue.

Bowzone_Mikey
October 2nd, 2007, 03:27 PM
Actually there are certain times during hunting season when a rifle "MUST" be cased. 1/2 hour after sunset if you're in the woods seems to ring a bell!

Actually thats a provincial hunting regulation ... not a federal law ....

Twisted ...maybe your right I have drank a little much coffee lately ... But I also have seen so many rights taken away that it makes me sick ,,, I feel that we dont have to hide or go over above and above the law just to satisfy the ignorant veiws of Antis ...

If I offended any of my fellow sportsman I do Pubically Apologize

I stand by my veiws and values ...nothings gonna change my stance ...

Twisted Canuck
October 2nd, 2007, 05:54 PM
I forgive you brother....now start drinking mint tea, its calming....:wink:

riders01
October 2nd, 2007, 06:22 PM
No sense arguing Mikey, Ontario hunters and fishers were the first "sportsman" to back the liberals gun registery anyways! By the way I am from Dawson Creek and it is more common to find firearms (unrestricted) between the seats of a truck than a cup of coffee here. Firearms is a way of life for us up hear (look at a map we are way up here), we do not hide in the closet because an eastern bored teacher feels a firearm is the devils right hand. Owning and carying a firearm is a right to us not a privelage and more gun owners need to realize this or we will lose not just our rights to own firearms but this could lead to an outright ban on any type of weapon including archery equpment, remember the saying "if it only saves one life".

Now please think about becoming a member of the CSSA or NFA they need our help to fight for our rights!!

Twisted Canuck
October 2nd, 2007, 07:04 PM
For the Record: I am a strong (passionate even) supporter of the rights of Canadian sportsman to own, transport, and use firearms in a legal, ethical manner.

Civil discourse and respect, while maintaining that right, is the best way to approach that subject. Making it an East vs West subject will only alienate those of us who should be allies. United we will prevail, divided and infighting amongst ourselves, we will be a pitiful laughingstock, portrayed as a bunch of Redneck hillbillies, instead of responsible gun owners....

So let's all approach this in that manner, instead of being Western Rednecks vs Eastern Liberals ok?? It doesn't help matters to be a regional bigot. Even though I have been guilty of the very thing on occasion.....:embara:

riders01
October 2nd, 2007, 08:30 PM
Hey twisted, I was stating the truth, my statement wasn't east versus west. I stated that the Ontario Federation of anglers and hunters (also known as the old boys club by a high persentage of ontario gun owners) were the first to endorse the firearms act (which pissed off alot of Ontario handgun owners because the OFAH said we don't need handguns because we don't hunt with them, that my friend is alienating allies). What bugged me was some of the comments about public perseption of gun owners, and hiding our guns so we don't offend people. Please understand I have many eastern friends some gun owners some not it just bugs me when people suggest we hide our passion.

pintojk
October 2nd, 2007, 11:02 PM
United we will prevail, divided and infighting amongst ourselves, we will be a pitiful laughingstock, portrayed as a bunch of Redneck hillbillies, instead of responsible gun owners....

I'm concerned where this thread has gone ..... it's intent was to inform us about a situation that affects us all.

If we cannot discuss it respectfully without the personal attacks and political mumbo jumbo than I think it's lost its purpose. Sorry it's gone this way TC ..... hopefully we can get it back on track :)

PintoJK

Twisted Canuck
October 2nd, 2007, 11:12 PM
Agreed Pinto.

When something like this happens, its good that the hunting community can be informed, and take positve steps to educate each other. That way we can present an educated, respectful response to those who may oppose our rights. As long as we maintain an ethical and responsible manner, and can discuss issues like this in a civil manner, we can collectively (hopefully) affect the decision making process that affects us.

When it degenerates, as I feel this discussion has, fueled by regional prejudices (and we all have them, so lets man up and admit it)...it doesn't accomplish anything. On the contrary, it raises barriers that will ultimately make our rights more tenuous.

TC

PS Lets remember that laws regarding firearms/restrictions are passed federally, so as hunters and sportsman we need to drop the regional debate and think nationally on this issue.

cath8r
October 3rd, 2007, 10:39 AM
Not all Ontarian's vote Liberal and/or support the gun registration. Not that theres anything wrong with voting Liberal if your inclined that way.
I wish the rest of the country would see that. Our riding has had a Conservative MP 2 elections in a row now.
Some provinces MNR's will or will not enforce the gun registration.

thunderbolt
October 3rd, 2007, 11:02 AM
Hey twisted, I was stating the truth, my statement wasn't east versus west. I stated that the Ontario Federation of anglers and hunters (also known as the old boys club by a high persentage of ontario gun owners) were the first to endorse the firearms act (which pissed off alot of Ontario handgun owners because the OFAH said we don't need handguns because we don't hunt with them, that my friend is alienating allies). What bugged me was some of the comments about public perseption of gun owners, and hiding our guns so we don't offend people. Please understand I have many eastern friends some gun owners some not it just bugs me when people suggest we hide our passion.

At least get facts straight--- Bill C-68 was never supported in the East.
As others have stated this is not an East-West thing at all.
Our biggest problem here in Ontario is that we have to put up with the Leafs and their fans:rolleyes:

pintojk
October 3rd, 2007, 11:19 AM
At least get facts straight--- Bill C-68 was never supported in the East.
As others have stated this is not an East-West thing at all.
Our biggest problem here in Ontario is that we have to put up with the Leafs and their fans:rolleyes:

Sen's fan :pukey:

Go Leafs Go !!!

Sitler's gonna have a great year :wink:

PintoJK

btw please don't paint the East with a Liberal brush ..... legal gun owners are probably less than 2% of the GTA's population, so to say they caved to public pressure would be untrue. Just outnumbered.

thunderbolt
October 3rd, 2007, 11:24 AM
Sen's fan :pukey:

Go Leafs Go !!!

Sitler's gonna have a great year :wink:

PintoJK


:ot:
Actually Sens suck as much as the Leafs and Habs do.

Go Bruins:moon:

Twisted Canuck
October 3rd, 2007, 12:49 PM
"Sitler's gonna have a great year" :wink:

PintoJK



Yeah, I heard that he and Lanny were making a comeback, but they are still waiting for Tiger to sign on....!!

I'm actually a closet Leafs fan, from the days when Atlanta was the Flames....Now I'm a diehard Flames fan of course, but I still have a soft spot for the team that hasn't won the cup since the year I was BORN!!!!!

Bowzone_Mikey
October 3rd, 2007, 08:35 PM
"Sitler's gonna have a great year" :wink:

PintoJK



Yeah, I heard that he and Lanny were making a comeback, but they are still waiting for Tiger to sign on....!!

I'm actually a closet Leafs fan, from the days when Atlanta was the Flames....Now I'm a diehard Flames fan of course, but I still have a soft spot for the team that hasn't won the cup since the year I was BORN!!!!!

I guess now we can call you a Flaming leaf blower :eek::eek:

Grey Eagle
October 3rd, 2007, 10:34 PM
even tho that was your last post ...from where I am sitting thats exactly what your suggesting.

Granted I dont know you from a hole in the ground ...but from what i am led to beleive you have quite the following of Minions and you are ranked pretty high in the OAA food chain ... maybe i am thinkin of someone else ... at anyrate.. you stating even tho its our right and perfectly legal to do so, we shouldnt because it may offend some one .... That is the biggest load of BS I have ever read .... I find it hard to beleive that anyone in your postion would spew that out their keyboard
You can go Hide in your shroud of darkness if you want ... I am proud to an avid outdoorsman, and a hunter ...if you are ashamed ...then I pity you.

One small step for grey ... One giant leap backwards for Hunters advocacy

:confused:

Well Mikey, you'd be correct in one assumption, you don't don't know me from a hole in the ground.

I am going to offer you 3, make that 4 pieces of advice. Take them or leave them.

1) You mention being "led to believe", I suggest you start thinking for yourself and cut strings with your puppet master.

2) Put aside your own prejudices and pre-conceived notions for a moment and actually read what I wrote. Take your blinders off and take the time to try and see what my (and others) intended meaning was.

3) Understand that those that may hold ranks with you may not always step in time with you. That doesn't mean they don't share a common goal, or are any less committed.

4) You got an early Christmas present here. Please don't make the mistake of making personal attacks again. Lest you find yourself on the outside looking in.

Should you feel the need to discuss this further, I'd be happy to provide you with my #'s :)

Pinto.......... don't touch this one.

Cheers

Bowzone_Mikey
October 3rd, 2007, 10:54 PM
Well Mikey, you'd be correct in one assumption, you don't don't know me from a hole in the ground.

I am going to offer you 3, make that 4 pieces of advice. Take them or leave them.

1) You mention being "led to believe", I suggest you start thinking for yourself and cut strings with your puppet master.

2) Put aside your own prejudices and pre-conceived notions for a moment and actually read what I wrote. Take your blinders off and take the time to try and see what my (and others) intended meaning was.

3) Understand that those that may hold ranks with you may not always step in time with you. That doesn't mean they don't share a common goal, or are any less committed.

4) You got an early Christmas present here. Please don't make the mistake of making personal attacks again. Lest you find yourself on the outside looking in.

Should you feel the need to discuss this further, I'd be happy to provide you with my #'s :)

Pinto.......... don't touch this one.

Cheers

Points taken and noted

The inheirent problem with text communication is emotion/ tone amoung others in spoken communication is lost ...
I am not a beleiver of editing stuff that is posted for the most part ... I cant edit spoken language ...and emotions usually get the best of me ....
Oh and I have no master as no master will have me I form my own albiet not not the most PC opinions.

for all posted above Dennis I apologize to you personally.

Mike Cartwright
Prince George BC

Grey Eagle
October 3rd, 2007, 11:19 PM
Points taken and noted

The inheirent problem with text communication is emotion/ tone amoung others in spoken communication is lost ...
I am not a beleiver of editing stuff that is posted for the most part ... I cant edit spoken language ...and emotions usually get the best of me ....
Oh and I have no master as no master will have me I form my own albiet not not the most PC opinions.

for all posted above Dennis I apologize to you personally.

Mike Cartwright
Prince George BC

Mike,

I, of all people, will admit that translation and meaning is often lost in amongst the key strokes. The art of conversation has not been served well with the advent of online forums.

As I elluded to in my previous post, I'm sure we are on the same side and share a common goal....... we just may have different opinions on how to get there ;)

Thank you for your apology, and here is to spirited, civil discourse in the future :darkbeer:

Cheers

Dennis Daigle

cdhunter
October 3rd, 2007, 11:20 PM
hey reed trade you bears for yotes around anola there's been nothing but momma bears and their cubs and blue pickup trucks with those funky blue and red lights on top and just for the record yes my rifle travels in plain site with the bolt removed and trigger lock on yes the trigger lock is over kill but when i'm at the gas station and the guy filling up next to me looks over and in the back of jeep seeing the lock just puts him at ease and if he asks any questions unless their personal I just answer them its easier to promote a sport when people are approachable as for the rcmp attitudes vary from detachment to detachment Ive seen some of the best anola and some of the worst steinbach I'm absolutely positive they hold the canadian record for most tickets in one day and the areas i hunt in cover both jurisdictions so i have the joy of dealing with both. can somebody please just hurry up and fold up the phoenix franchise go jets go jets go ahhh forget about it we've got the moose now affordable tickets without players and owneers crying about money:darkbeer:

Grey Eagle
October 3rd, 2007, 11:59 PM
I owe one to Pinto.

He has the task of moderating this forum, I think he has done an admirable job. I know he works hard at keeping the peace. :)

I stepped on his toes with my earlier reply, I apologize for that.

pintojk
October 4th, 2007, 12:19 AM
accepted :)

PintoJK

Twisted Canuck
October 4th, 2007, 02:56 AM
I guess everything is worked out now, except the 'Flaming Leaf Blower' comment....

I'll settle that at our indoor shoot Mikey, I'll be talking to you about putting some crispy action on it...You've got a few months to save your paper route money! :wink:

Pic
October 4th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Sen's fan :pukey:

Go Leafs Go !!!

Sitler's gonna have a great year :wink:

PintoJK

btw please don't paint the East with a Liberal brush ..... legal gun owners are probably less than 2% of the GTA's population, so to say they caved to public pressure would be untrue. Just outnumbered.

Yeah, the leafs sure went last night....all the way to the losing end...LOL :tongue::wink::eek:

Serge

Gary M12
October 4th, 2007, 01:02 PM
speaking of leaf blowers....They have just released their new uniforms for the year :set1_rolf2:

http://manitobaanglers.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/11113/normal_leafblower.jpg

Gary M12
October 4th, 2007, 04:00 PM
GRRR....I need an edit function :embara:


http://www.hunt101.com/img/520436.jpg

Bowzone_Mikey
October 4th, 2007, 08:52 PM
you best start takin yer empties in now then ... I'm goin old school and settin up the Super Tec for 3D this year

araz2114
October 4th, 2007, 11:06 PM
OK, I have been reading everything on here for too long. I agree and disagree with most everything as I can see everyone's side and opinion. I feel I must now post a response.

No sense arguing Mikey, Ontario hunters and fishers were the first "sportsman" to back the liberals gun registery anyway! By the way I am from Dawson Creek and it is more common to find firearms (unrestricted) between the seats of a truck than a cup of coffee here. Firearms is a way of life for us up hear (look at a map we are way up here), we do not hide in the closet because an eastern bored teacher feels a firearm is the devils right hand. Owning and carying a firearm is a right to us not a privelage and more gun owners need to realize this or we will lose not just our rights to own firearms but this could lead to an outright ban on any type of weapon including archery equpment, remember the saying "if it only saves one life".

Now please think about becoming a member of the CSSA or NFA they need our help to fight for our rights!!

NOW I AM UPSET.... RIDERS01.... YOUR BUTT SUCKS AIR! I DEFY YOU TO FIND ANY ONTARIO HUNTER THAT EVER SUPPORTED THE GUN REGISTY.

YOU MAKE ME SICK!

Twisted Canuck
October 5th, 2007, 01:58 AM
:wink:
you best start takin yer empties in now then ... I'm goin old school and settin up the Super Tec for 3D this year

Bring on your old school SuperTec....I just bought a brand new '05 VTec, may not be as quick, but boy does she shoot sweet....Let's shoot for honor, bragging rights, and a two four of my choice (the winner gets to choose his brew!).....

Mountie
October 5th, 2007, 03:51 PM
NOW I AM UPSET.... RIDERS01.... YOUR BUTT SUCKS AIR! I DEFY YOU TO FIND ANY ONTARIO HUNTER THAT EVER SUPPORTED THE GUN REGISTY.

YOU MAKE ME SICK!

I've been following this thread for a bit now......as a LEO that works in the area and has some knowledge of the incident, the only comment which I would like to make is this : please don't paint all LEO's with the same brush. We're human and make mistakes as well. Unfortunately when we screw something up its usually to the magnitude that it draws the attention of the media. Having said that, I will support any of the opinions expressed here stating that arrogance does not have a place within our profession. Not many days go by where a member of the public hasn't told me of something which I did not know. Whether its a trucker with 30+ years of experience or a house wife and mother involved in a domestic dispute, I've been told (and sometimes corrected) by them all.

Most members(officers) I know are extremely commited to their communities and spend countless hours of voluntary overtime contributing to local sports, arts, and community organizations. Most of these members never display the kind of arrogance alledged by the two individuals who were subjected to the traffic stop and subsequent investigation. ( I say alledged, due to the fact that I was not there first hand and cannot comment upon what may have been said by the persons stopped, their actual comments to the officers or how their attitudes may have been presented. From their( the two men stopped) e-mail, I have no reason to believe that they were anything less that polite and repectfull)

Hopefully this incident will be a usefull tool for the police officers involved and they will learn from the experience.

Now having said all that I would like to comment on the above quote.

ARAZ : Could you not have found a better way to make that statement? Your profile states that you're a forty year old high school teacher.......I would hope that in forty years of life on this planet, and in the profession which you are in, that you may have learned to present your ideas in a better manner than this. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on the Ontario registry matter although I would hope that it doesn't include further discussion of the suction qualities of other members anal regions....:pukey:

araz2114
October 5th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Mountie.... I got a PM from a good friend who happened to notice that my "rant" (Not my usual attitude on here) happened to be my post 666. Who knew????

I did notice that you called the "Federal Gun Registry" the "Ontario registry"..... was that an accident or just trying to get us Ontarians wound up:wink::wink:

suction qualities of other members anal regions anal regions???? I am not sure what you are talking about?????? "butt" is short form for Buttress as in Archery :eek::eek:

Thank you for your comments Mountie.

Grey Eagle
October 5th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I've been following this thread for a bit now......as a LEO that works in the area and has some knowledge of the incident, the only comment which I would like to make is this : please don't paint all LEO's with the same brush. We're human and make mistakes as well. Unfortunately when we screw something up its usually to the magnitude that it draws the attention of the media. Having said that, I will support any of the opinions expressed here stating that arrogance does not have a place within our profession. Not many days go by where a member of the public hasn't told me of something which I did not know. Whether its a trucker with 30+ years of experience or a house wife and mother involved in a domestic dispute, I've been told (and sometimes corrected) by them all.

Most members(officers) I know are extremely commited to their communities and spend countless hours of voluntary overtime contributing to local sports, arts, and community organizations. Most of these members never display the kind of arrogance alledged by the two individuals who were subjected to the traffic stop and subsequent investigation. ( I say alledged, due to the fact that I was not there first hand and cannot comment upon what may have been said by the persons stopped, their actual comments to the officers or how their attitudes may have been presented. From their( the two men stopped) e-mail, I have no reason to believe that they were anything less that polite and repectfull)

Hopefully this incident will be a usefull tool for the police officers involved and they will learn from the experience.

Now having said all that I would like to comment on the above quote.

ARAZ : Could you not have found a better way to make that statement? Your profile states that you're a forty year old high school teacher.......I would hope that in forty years of life on this planet, and in the profession which you are in, that you may have learned to present your ideas in a better manner than this. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on the Ontario registry matter although I would hope that it doesn't include further discussion of the suction qualities of other members anal regions....:pukey:

Likely the most lucid post made on this thread, thanks Mountie :)

And go easy on Araz......... he is actually one of the more decent folks you will meet ;)

Mountie
October 5th, 2007, 07:17 PM
Mountie.... I got a PM from a good friend who happened to notice that my "rant" (Not my usual attitude on here) happened to be my post 666. Who knew????

I did notice that you called the "Federal Gun Registry" the "Ontario registry"..... was that an accident or just trying to get us Ontarians wound up:wink::wink:

suction qualities of other members anal regions anal regions???? I am not sure what you are talking about?????? "butt" is short form for Buttress as in Archery :eek::eek:

Thank you for your comments Mountie.


Oooops! I really did mean the Federal Gun registry......I spent 10 years working around the Ottawa/Renfrew area and was a member of the OFAA........I may actually end up back that way at some point, but you are correct......I would be hard pressed to remember any of the guys I hunted with who were in support of the registry.....;)

hoody123
October 5th, 2007, 07:37 PM
I've been following this thread for a bit now......as a LEO that works in the area and has some knowledge of the incident, the only comment which I would like to make is this : please don't paint all LEO's with the same brush. We're human and make mistakes as well. Unfortunately when we screw something up its usually to the magnitude that it draws the attention of the media. Having said that, I will support any of the opinions expressed here stating that arrogance does not have a place within our profession. Not many days go by where a member of the public hasn't told me of something which I did not know. Whether its a trucker with 30+ years of experience or a house wife and mother involved in a domestic dispute, I've been told (and sometimes corrected) by them all.

Most members(officers) I know are extremely commited to their communities and spend countless hours of voluntary overtime contributing to local sports, arts, and community organizations. Most of these members never display the kind of arrogance alledged by the two individuals who were subjected to the traffic stop and subsequent investigation. ( I say alledged, due to the fact that I was not there first hand and cannot comment upon what may have been said by the persons stopped, their actual comments to the officers or how their attitudes may have been presented. From their( the two men stopped) e-mail, I have no reason to believe that they were anything less that polite and repectfull)

Hopefully this incident will be a usefull tool for the police officers involved and they will learn from the experience.

Now having said all that I would like to comment on the above quote.

ARAZ : Could you not have found a better way to make that statement? Your profile states that you're a forty year old high school teacher.......I would hope that in forty years of life on this planet, and in the profession which you are in, that you may have learned to present your ideas in a better manner than this. I would be interested in hearing your opinion on the Ontario registry matter although I would hope that it doesn't include further discussion of the suction qualities of other members anal regions....:pukey:

Thanks for the inciteful and succinct post! And as others have stated, old Araz is a jolly chap, just don't ask him if enjoys moving schools (You're right btw Chris, this has been a nightmare... Although my room at school is just out of this world!)
Hoody.

Twisted Canuck
October 5th, 2007, 10:20 PM
I appreciate your input Mountie, glad to hear from you. As I posted earlier in this thread, I have a great deal of respect for the RCMP, and appreciate the nature of the job they do...and very glad to hear that you have a 'moderate' (for lack of a better word) view on the events, and apparently in your approach to your job. Thank you. I believe that if people in general had this approach in their day to day dealings with other homo sapiens you would probably have a less interesting, safer job. Which you would probably be thankful for. TC

Mountie
October 5th, 2007, 11:42 PM
I appreciate your input Mountie, glad to hear from you. As I posted earlier in this thread, I have a great deal of respect for the RCMP, and appreciate the nature of the job they do...and very glad to hear that you have a 'moderate' (for lack of a better word) view on the events, and apparently in your approach to your job. Thank you. I believe that if people in general had this approach in their day to day dealings with other homo sapiens you would probably have a less interesting, safer job. Which you would probably be thankful for. TC


Its funny but issues like these really remind you of how the world has changed......I can remember heading out small game hunting after school when I was a kid, and walking up the main road to get to the area I wanted to hunt in........can't do that now.....we recently had a similar call where two teens headed out target shooting. They were being very safe about it, had a proper back stop, ear & eye protection etc.....the only problem was the route they chose brought them past an elementary school....we did a complete lock down of the school and managed to get things resolved before the kids really knew what was happening. Point is, years ago the person who called it in would have looked at the two teens and thought "oh, they're heading out hunting".....these days its "Oh my god, they're going to shoot up the school!!"

Its unfortunate but responsible firearm ownership doesn't seem to make the headlines, while the minute a firearm is mis-used the media is all over it......I guess thats another good thing which has come out of this incident......maybe by hearing of this someone else (other than the police:tongue:) will have learned something about safe firearms transport....

Anyway...thanks for the words TC....:D

IGluIt4U
October 6th, 2007, 11:50 PM
I owe one to Pinto.

He has the task of moderating this forum, I think he has done an admirable job. I know he works hard at keeping the peace. :)

I stepped on his toes with my earlier reply, I apologize for that.
Man.. bet that hurt.. Eagle's a big dood! :lol: :wink:

Twisted Canuck
October 7th, 2007, 08:41 PM
I feel like this is the correct thread to post on re: the RCMP member who was killed in the line of duty yesterday in Hay River NWT. I personally would like to offer my condolances to the wife and young child of this officer, and to appreciate again that the RCMP are daily putting their lives on the line to protect citizens of Canada and enforce the laws to the best of their ability. To Mountie, I appreciate that you also must take it personally when one of your brothers in uniform is gunned down in the performance of his duty.
My respect and appreciation, as well as prayers for those affected.
TC

Mountie
October 8th, 2007, 01:13 AM
I feel like this is the correct thread to post on re: the RCMP member who was killed in the line of duty yesterday in Hay River NWT. I personally would like to offer my condolances to the wife and young child of this officer, and to appreciate again that the RCMP are daily putting their lives on the line to protect citizens of Canada and enforce the laws to the best of their ability. To Mountie, I appreciate that you also must take it personally when one of your brothers in uniform is gunned down in the performance of his duty.
My respect and appreciation, as well as prayers for those affected.
TC

Thanks again TC, you're a class act buddy......I actually served with Chris up in the arctic. We were on an investigators course together a couple of years back........thank-you for taking time from your family to think of Jody and Chris's daughter today....when people make statements like yours, it helps us realize why we do "the job".....

Sincerely,

Rob

Twisted Canuck
October 8th, 2007, 03:41 AM
I don't envy you your job, Rob. It definately takes a special kind of personality to deal with the day to day demands of law enforcement, and dealing with the lowlife elements that is inherent with criminal activity....

I couldn't do it, I'm sure I would end up hating humanity in general (I'd probably get nailed for police brutality the first time somebody lipped off to me at a traffic stop :wink:)....and yet as you've said, I see RCMP members giving to the community in ways unrelated to their '9-5' jobs....for instance, Gerald Gervais , maybe you know him, helped coach my son's hockey team last year, a huge time demand and sacrifice. What a super guy! He spent a lot of 1 on 1 time with my son, helping him with his defensive game, and really encouraged him and made him feel special. Can't thank him enough. Its really noteworthy that police give so much to the community outside of the performance of their duty.

So as I've said, I have a lot of respect for the men and women who wear the Serge. My whole point in starting this thread wasn't to bash the Force, as I hope you have seen, but only to make the point that gun owners need to be aware of their rights and the laws pertaining to those rights....

Take care and be safe. TC

alFrumpus
October 18th, 2007, 08:44 AM
Just read this thread. Thanks for sharing this letter. More Canadians should know about this.

I don't advocate turning Canadian gun laws more towards U.S. gun laws, but those officers' (alleged) arrogance is horrible. Also, we have far too many hunters around to be able to afford a mindset like: "guns = bad". We need people to be informed, and know proper care and handling of firearms, including the laws (and law-enforcers!).

Thank you for fighting the good fight, Mountie.

BTW, did P.M.Harper talk about the Gun-Registry or anything firearm-related in the throne-speech this week-end?

(P.S. I hunt with a bow as much as possible ...no mix-ups.)