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pTac
November 13th, 2007, 05:58 AM
OK fellow Hoosiers, with the invasion of the orange army rapidly approaching, I just wanted to see how everyone felt about how the one buck rule was doing with what you have observed this year in archery season. I personally feel it is a great idea, and I have seen greatly increased buck activity over the last couple years, and I think it is due to that. How do you all feel about it? IMO we really need a much better deer management program, but since we don't have a good program,at least the OBR is there and I think working. What are your thoughts fella's?

18javelin
November 13th, 2007, 06:15 AM
I think it has helped, Not as much as moving the Gun season out of rut But it helps.

It isnt affecting what the orange Army Takes though it just is affecting some of those guys who do both archery and gun hunt. I belive the General Idea of a Nice Buck is growing on people and they are letting some of the smaller Deer walk anyways.

I know i would support pushing back Gun season for 2 weeks even if that meant Bow hunting would cease for those weeks also. I belive if you leave the Mack daddys time to breed and get out of the DUMB stages then the size in two years would grow enormously.

Cant make em all happy But at least they are trying.

rodney482
November 13th, 2007, 07:16 AM
IT works,,,,,,,1 buck is plenty.

rock77
November 13th, 2007, 08:04 AM
IT works,,,,,,,1 buck is plenty.

1 for you Rodney I seen the pictures of the one you shot that would be enough for me too. :) JK
It must be just the year but I havenot seen bigger deer this year as in the past alot of small bucks 1.5 to 2.5 with small racks.
I did not shoot a buck last year because of size maybe won't get a shot this year either but thats the way it goes just trying to shoot one a little bigger than the last one.
Plenty of does though
I guess I can't really say if the OBR is working or not.
It can't hurt can it?

bowtechguy19
November 13th, 2007, 08:54 AM
I do believe that the OBR has helped with seeing more bucks of better size. But I do not believe this is the most effective way to handle things.

I agree with 18javelin, the gun seasons are what is killing this great state. I would like to see them pushed back two weeks and cut in half.

I wouldnt mind seeing an antler restriction of some kind. Maybe four points on one side, but then again this may not seem fair to the youth, so maybe if you hold a youth license then anything goes, and four on one side for the rest of the hunters.

Dad tells me that it used to be 1 buck with a bow, 1 buck with a gun, and a doe (your choice of season). Doesnt sound too bad, assuming you can still obtain bonus antlerless tags.

Just my two cents.

BTG19

Redemption
November 13th, 2007, 09:43 AM
I was told by a DNR biologist that it (one buck) was extended so that there would be definitive proof at the end of ten years that it was a failure. The biologists don't support it because they know it makes very little difference in the overall herd management. What does make a difference is personal responsibility for what we shoot. Saturday morning, any one of us will be able to drive to the nearest check station or processor and view the yearly ritual. Piles of immature forkhorns, spikes and six point bucks, don't forget the heaps of does and button bucks.

I am all for shooting does, it helps to balalnce the herd. However, I am not for disallowing me to take an additional mature buck with my bow or shotgun when at the same time, allowing me to shoot up to potentially five button bucks in my county. That is not right. A buck should be tagged as a buck, no matter what the antler size. A culture change and mindset change needs to be driven into the orange wearers if any progress is going to be made in IN.


Dad tells me that it used to be 1 buck with a bow, 1 buck with a gun, and a doe (your choice of season). Doesnt sound too bad, assuming you can still obtain bonus antlerless tags.


At one time, it was 2 deer any age any sex with a bow and one antlered deer with shotgun or muzzleloader. Potentially 3 bucks.

nebling
November 13th, 2007, 09:45 AM
I'm not from Indiana, but Ohio, and I believe the "one buck" rule is a great thing. It is a tremendous tool to manage quality deer, and besides. To control the population, does are the main source. Ohio has been a one buck state for as long as I can remember, and I believe it makes perfect sense for QDM.

Dog
November 13th, 2007, 10:26 AM
I believe the OBR is a great thing. I have seen more bucks, a more balanced herd, and see more deer 2.5 and older now. There a still a tremendous amount of 1.5 yr old deer shot (mostly in firearm) but less than before IMO. I have spoke to several bowhunters that have passed bucks they would have harvested in the past because now if they tag out, they can't use the gun season to shoot a "big 'un"....

callmin
November 13th, 2007, 10:45 AM
I agree with nebling. Ohio has been a 1 buck state for as long as I have been hunting and looking at the deer that have come out of this state the last few years, I would say a 1 buck limit works for QDM.

rodney482
November 13th, 2007, 11:19 AM
I was told by a DNR biologist that it (one buck) was extended so that there would be definitive proof at the end of ten years that it was a failure. The biologists don't support it because they know it makes very little difference in the overall herd management. What does make a difference is personal responsibility for what we shoot. Saturday morning, any one of us will be able to drive to the nearest check station or processor and view the yearly ritual. Piles of immature forkhorns, spikes and six point bucks, don't forget the heaps of does and button bucks.

I am all for shooting does, it helps to balalnce the herd. However, I am not for disallowing me to take an additional mature buck with my bow or shotgun when at the same time, allowing me to shoot up to potentially five button bucks in my county. That is not right. A buck should be tagged as a buck, no matter what the antler size. A culture change and mindset change needs to be driven into the orange wearers if any progress is going to be made in IN.



At one time, it was 2 deer any age any sex with a bow and one antlered deer with shotgun or muzzleloader. Potentially 3 bucks.


I remember when I used to have to apply for a doe tag in Indiana,,took me two years to get one. Now I can shoot 100+ does per year.

Jeffress77
November 13th, 2007, 11:22 AM
I have seen bigger bucks and more of them as a result of the OBR. This season alone I have seen 12 different bucks while on stand. I have never had a season before where I have counted 12 different bucks. While it may not solely be a result of the legislation, I would bet that it has a definite part in the overall effect.

PAThwacker
November 13th, 2007, 11:26 AM
I support the one buck rule and antler restrictions, as a resident of PA the system is working and thankfully all the young bucks are being able to breed and live at least a year or two.
:wink:

jhlewis10
November 13th, 2007, 11:52 AM
I hunt for meat so I dont care about big bucks. But if the herd needs to be reduced then I will shoot anything legal that comes into range.

If I am following the laws of the state, and I choose to fill my freezer with a button buck, and also helping to reduce the herd then, I have no guilty conscience at all.

Redemption
November 13th, 2007, 12:19 PM
I remember when I used to have to apply for a doe tag in Indiana,,took me two years to get one. Now I can shoot 100+ does per year.


I remember those days. The deer licenses had the triangle shaped notches on them. I think bow was green lettering, shotgun was red and ML was green. This was even before the carbon paper bonus permits were mailed to you. The doe tag I remember was a big yellow piece of paper. A guy I knew as a kid got one and I remember he had it wrapped around the does leg.

Before you could shoot 2 deer with a bow, it was one deer either sex with bow, an antlered deer with shotgun or muzzleloader but not both. Muzzleloader was a second chance at a buck if you owned one. If I saw antlers at that age I was tickled to death! Its come a long way since the early eighties and people still aren't happy.

DEC
November 13th, 2007, 12:22 PM
Yes yes yes yes yes on all accounts. I support it, I love it, I love what it is doing to increase the age class of bucks in my area, I love how it spreads opportunity to other hunters to get the chance at a buck and an even better chance at a quality buck for them, and my favorite part of OBR ... how it makes the anti-OBR/"deer welfare system"/"hate trophy hunting"/"lost opportunity" crowd cry in their spilled milk.

I love OBR in Indiana and I hope that it is here to stay beyond the next 5 years.:cool:

flintcreek6412
November 13th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Yes, I believe the OBR has helped the herd a great deal but is that the only reason we are seeing more bucks and harvesting more mature bucks? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the OBR but there are many other variables that we need to consider that weren't around when it began....

1- The antler craze has created a different mindset than was around years ago so people are letting the smaller ones walk
2- Game management on private property wasn't around years ago and people didn't understand the buck/doe ratio and how it plays out
3- In line with #2, it's no longer considered taboo to kill a doe and actually encouraged
4- Modern equipment and techniques have made harvesting mature bucks easier thus more being harvested and seen in the taxidermy shops
*A muzzle loader or shotgun now having 200yrd+ range opposed to the old 100yrd max
*Archery equipment with more forgiveness, speed and better broadheads allows for shots past 50yrd where 20yrd used to be about the limit
*Education about scent control
*Trail cameras and other scouting tools not previously available
*Modern tree stands get you up 20+ft vs. the old 2x4 12ft stands
5- More hunters thus the big boys have less holes to slip through and less that die of old age.

Just some food for thought.

Komi
November 13th, 2007, 01:26 PM
I support the OBR and I know I am a minority but I also support thr earn a buck rule. But then again I know people who will check a buck in urban and then take a second, that is legal by the way, I think there are people who want a big buck and are not thinking that any deer they take should be concidered a trophy wether a 14 pt or a 50# doe.

arrowaddict
November 13th, 2007, 04:29 PM
I think it is working great! Personally I have seen an increase in mature buck sightings in the last few years. I also heard that the OBR is going to end in 2012, does anyone know if there is any truth to that?

rock77
November 13th, 2007, 04:37 PM
I think it is working great! Personally I have seen an increase in mature buck sightings in the last few years. I also heard that the OBR is going to end in 2012, does anyone know if there is any truth to that?

I have heard that also but cannot confirm.
p.s. remember when the farmers used to have someone come out and evaluate there property and receive doe tags in relationship to the damage to there crops and then the farmer /landowner would hand them out to people hunting on his land.

Indiana_hunter
November 13th, 2007, 05:10 PM
I think the OBR's great.

Rothhar1
November 14th, 2007, 12:05 AM
I was told by a DNR biologist that it (one buck) was extended so that there would be definitive proof at the end of ten years that it was a failure. The biologists don't support it because they know it makes very little difference in the overall herd management. What does make a difference is personal responsibility for what we shoot. Saturday morning, any one of us will be able to drive to the nearest check station or processor and view the yearly ritual. Piles of immature forkhorns, spikes and six point bucks, don't forget the heaps of does and button bucks.

I am all for shooting does, it helps to balalnce the herd. However, I am not for disallowing me to take an additional mature buck with my bow or shotgun when at the same time, allowing me to shoot up to potentially five button bucks in my county. That is not right. A buck should be tagged as a buck, no matter what the antler size. A culture change and mindset change needs to be driven into the orange wearers if any progress is going to be made in IN.



At one time, it was 2 deer any age any sex with a bow and one antlered deer with shotgun or muzzleloader. Potentially 3 bucks.

I agree and have been told and wasnt it also published by the DNR much to the same affect as your post right after the last nrc and dnr meeting on the OBR ?? Also you are correct that there was 1 year that you were allowed 3 buck but as i recall the fallowing or previous year to that you could legaly take 4 bucks 2 in arch ,1 in firearms ,and 1 in M/L season at the same time I belive was the year that you could take a doe a day during the portion of the season that honerd them!!? I will look for my old rule books as I tryed to keep them all .:darkbeer:

pTac
November 14th, 2007, 12:18 AM
KOMI, I agree with you on the "earn a buck" too. I would love to see that implemented to help force others who could care less about QDM in taking down doe numbers, which are way out of whack right now in most areas.

indiana redneck
November 14th, 2007, 12:29 AM
I think the OBR is going great & they should never go back to 2 bucks. I know alot of guys when you could kill 2 bucks that shot anything with antlers now that the OBR came into effect they let those small bucks walk.

zara_puppy
November 14th, 2007, 01:14 AM
I've seen more bucks this year than any other, but then I'm spending more time in the woods. OBR is probably part of it, but as mentioned earlier - better educated hunters probably also help. Got my first antlered this year - so next year I'll probably wait for a more mature buck. I wouldn't mind the 'Earn a Buck' thing either.

Rodney482 - how do you go about getting 100 does per year? You must be hunting all over the state. Here in Randolph County you can only get 5 deer period - and you have to play it right to do that. If I get a buck with a bow then I'm down to 4 deer. 2 archery tags, Bonus Antlerless (only one), Firearms and Muzzleloader. If I get a buck with the bow then I can only use the bonus antlerless in Firearms season which takes me down to 4 deer.

Added note - I called the Deer Hotline (the number is in the regs) and the guy highly recommended saving the buck for firearms so I could get more deer. So I'm thinking if they want us to get more does then let me get a doe on a firearms tag instead of burning my bonus antlerless. And if I manage to fill my bonus antlerless prior to firearms season I'm all done with the bow and will only get the first two weeks of December for muzzleloader.

Bottom line - to get the most deer you can take in Randolph you can only shoot does with a bow. Kind of a penalty. In the end it doesn't really matter - I only have enough freezer space for three deer!:mg:

Trykon Mike
November 14th, 2007, 01:29 AM
I am all for the OBR,I have seen alot more mature bucks in the last 3 years, than I have in the last 15.Just harvested my biggest buck ever last Friday, a 13 pointer

deer dude
November 14th, 2007, 03:15 AM
i think its even working in the area where i live ,have been seeing alot more and better racked bucks,this area i hunt in has enough poachers,and tresspassers to fill a jail up .its a damn wonder theres any deer left.

pTac
November 14th, 2007, 06:32 AM
Come on Hoosiers, keep it coming. In addition to the original question, what are your thoughts on the idea of the "earn a buck" as well as on the idea of pushing the firearms season back?

DEC
November 14th, 2007, 08:17 AM
Come on Hoosiers, keep it coming. In addition to the original question, what are your thoughts on the idea of the "earn a buck" as well as on the idea of pushing the firearms season back?

Do them both! Firearms ... one week only ... muzzleloader ... one week only. Open firearms the Saturday after Thanksgiving and run it to the following Sunday. Push Muzzleloader off until between Christmas & New Years.

I'm for earn a buck as well.

bowtechguy19
November 14th, 2007, 08:27 AM
Come on Hoosiers, keep it coming. In addition to the original question, what are your thoughts on the idea of the "earn a buck" as well as on the idea of pushing the firearms season back?

I think pushing the firearms season back and/or shortening it, would be the most valuable thing that we could do to improve our quality and population of bucks.

As for the earn a buck, I think this is about the second most valuable thing that could be implemented. This would force those who dont give a hoot about the buck/doe ratio, or those who just dont understand its importance, to help in the management aspect.

BTG19

Rush
November 14th, 2007, 10:11 AM
I'm for the OBR. I think it has helped in seeing more bucks. We haven't really seen an increase in Mature buck sightings here. EHD I think has hit here harder than what we thought, and we haven't seen many mature bucks!! I do think it is a good rule, in the fact that it allows more bucks to live which means more bucks will make it to an older age. However, I believe that an earn a buck program would be great! Also, I am a huge fan of moving gun season to the first saturday after thanksgiving!!!! If we really would like to grow big deer, then take the firearm seasons out of the main rut, or go to a gun season like Illiniois. You can argue you won't have as good a shot at killing a good buck with it out of the rut, but look at Iowa and Ohio. There are plenty being killed with guns. You know why, they get to grow up and there are a lot more out there!! Also, we has hunters need to do our part in managing! We still have neighbors that don't want does shot!!! For a while, we got the does down some and seen more mature deer, but now the doe numbers are climbing back up.

Booner1331
November 14th, 2007, 10:16 AM
I like the OBR, I am seeing bigger and better bucks example


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/booner1331/DSC_0024.jpg

..... but wouldn't mind seeing them go to an extra Earn A Buck...... if you kill a set ammount of does (to be determined)

pTac
November 14th, 2007, 01:43 PM
I like the OBR, I am seeing bigger and better bucks example


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/booner1331/DSC_0024.jpg

..... but wouldn't mind seeing them go to an extra Earn A Buck...... if you kill a set ammount of does (to be determined)

GREAT example, and great pic, thanks for sharing!

bowtechguy19
November 14th, 2007, 04:19 PM
ttt

Rothhar1
November 14th, 2007, 06:25 PM
Yes, I believe the OBR has helped the herd a great deal but is that the only reason we are seeing more bucks and harvesting more mature bucks? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the OBR but there are many other variables that we need to consider that weren't around when it began....

1- The antler craze has created a different mindset than was around years ago so people are letting the smaller ones walk
2- Game management on private property wasn't around years ago and people didn't understand the buck/doe ratio and how it plays out
3- In line with #2, it's no longer considered taboo to kill a doe and actually encouraged
4- Modern equipment and techniques have made harvesting mature bucks easier thus more being harvested and seen in the taxidermy shops
*A muzzle loader or shotgun now having 200yrd+ range opposed to the old 100yrd max
*Archery equipment with more forgiveness, speed and better broadheads allows for shots past 50yrd where 20yrd used to be about the limit
*Education about scent control
*Trail cameras and other scouting tools not previously available
*Modern tree stands get you up 20+ft vs. the old 2x4 12ft stands
5- More hunters thus the big boys have less holes to slip through and less that die of old age.

Just some food for thought.

I agree with these reasons and also I would like to add what I belive is the most important reason that people belive that the 1 buck rules working and that is -------------
1- Guys that used to willingly shoot 2 bucks a year would usualy take the first decent 6 or 8 pt that walked past thus ending thier season early and most would wait for a big buck in gun season .

However most would not see or get shots at the big boys during those 2 buck years as gun season opener was coin toss because of pressure . Where all that they actualy had to do back then to see big bucks was wait like they do now ! There were as many big ones then as now but if you ended your season by the 3rd-4th week of OCT. like alot bow hunters did then they simply were not out there to take or see the big boys IMO. Now the OBR has hunter gunshy or should I say Buck shy they are affraid to shoot because they might see a bigger buck .

Oh and I feel cheated a bit I have a lifetime License and Feel I paid for 2 bucks a year and they welched on the deal a bit! Sorry its just the way I feel about it ,and I belive that after 4 more seasons pass we will see the the return of the 2 buck rule to get hunters out there to shoot more does in gun as well the numbers of the harvests just do not support that the OBR makes any real differance the hunters are making the differanc IMO !

DEC
November 15th, 2007, 07:38 AM
Oh and I feel cheated a bit I have a lifetime License and Feel I paid for 2 bucks a year and they welched on the deal a bit!

Yea ... and in the past 6 years they have changed the regs so that you can shoot almost limitless does state wide ... those tags don't cost you the lifetime holder a penny. In the past 6 years, they added a fall turkey ... that tag doesn't cost you the lifetime holder a penny.

It is a two way street. You lost one $24 tag and gained hundreds of dollars of tags in added opportunities. Who's getting "welched"?

As a fellow lifetime license holder, I've not once felt that I got cheated in any why. I've only benefited from the extra hunting opportunities that the State has given me ... at no cost to me.:D

Redemption
November 15th, 2007, 08:00 AM
I totally agree Rothhar.

I have discussed this losing a buck as a lifetime holder with many lifetime holders and they agree. Most of the new hunters or hunters that couldn't kill 2 mature bucks anyway, are the ones touting its greatest perceived benefits.

bschwein
November 15th, 2007, 09:53 AM
I'm sure its helping but I think they should try moving dates around and shorten the gun seasons as well. I think this would really help out.

Redemption
November 15th, 2007, 10:05 AM
I remember in 2002, the second year of the OB fiasco, I heard guys exclaiming how many bigger and better bucks they were seeing because of the one buck rule. It has started an uneducated furor that refuses to dissipate. The big ones were always there, people are in the woods more often to see them now. If it has done any good at all, it has caused people to be more selective than they might otherwise have been. It has effected the overall herd makeup very little, if not in fact causing detriment due to fewer capable hunters in the woods during gun season, taking fewer does.

bowtechguy19
November 15th, 2007, 10:12 AM
The big ones were always there, people are in the woods more often to see them now. If it has done any good at all, it has caused people to be more selective than they might otherwise have been.

I think I am leaning more towards this. My father had five wall hangers before the OBR took effect. Since then he has only taken one that he is putting on the wall and that was this year, and it was only around 127".

MOVE/SHORTEN THE DARN GUN SEASONS!!!!

BTG19

Rothhar1
November 15th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Ok here goes I am going to show the harvest numbers of bucks only strait from the IDNR web sight to show that there were less buck deer shot before the OBR than after therefore saveing nothing IMO in the long run and showing that there could of been no big Buck glut because of it so here goes .
3 years before the one buck rule buck harvests
1999--total buck harvest 46,371
2000 --total buck harvest 44,621
2001--total buck harvest 48,357
total last 3 years of Two Bucks a year
139,349 total bucks for 1999-2001
----------------------------------------------------------------
First 3 years after the One Buck Rule .
2002--total buck harvest 47,177
2003--total buck harvest 49,533
2004--total buck harvest 54,768
total first 3 years of the One Buck Rule
151,478 total bucks for 2002-2004
With total Deer hunter numbers down 30% from the previous 3 years. Total differance was----------
12,129 more bucks were taken unted the one buck rule in the first 3 years as stated before with less liscense sales of almost 30 %

Here are the last 2 years of One Buck rule years .

2005--total buck harvest 52,488
2006--total buck harvest 49,094

The harvest was lower last season according to an E-mail I recived today from the IDNR due to a late crop harvest and EHD out break that lowed herd numbers in some areas of the state by 20-30 % .I will include an exerpt from a letter I recived from the IDNR today below.

One more interesting statistic-the bow harvest of buck during the 3 years of 2 bucks was 32,018 and the first 3 years OBR was 24,486 that means 7552 bucks were not shot during that 3 year period that were before however .The gun harvest raised 16.284 plus an additional 3289 during that 3 years of Muzzle loader season than the 3 previous years.So that is where your bowhuners that quit went strait to gun and M/L season.

I belive that these numbers cut through the guff and show absalutly no real advantage or buck savings .You are just seeing bigger bucks by passing the little ones up that you would of gave an arrow too early to !IMO






Solid deer season expected

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indiana Deer Harvest Outlook



With the opening of the deer firearms season creeping up Nov. 17, DNR deer management biologist Jim Mitchell said hunters can expect deer to be abundant over the state as a whole, despite the dry weather.

"With the recent rains, the effect of the drought (on deer hunting) should be negligible for much of the state," he said.

Mitchell said that the drought's effects may be different from what some observers might expect. Rather than a lack of food for deer, the main side effect from the drought is likely to be the increased reproduction rate of midges. The bite of these insects spreads EHD (Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease), a deer disease that he said will not have much of an effect on the number of deer seen and harvested in the state as a whole, but could reduce numbers significantly for the southern quarter or third of the state.

Last year's EHD outbreak reduced the herd by 20 to 30 percent in some counties in west-central Indiana. Mitchell said the herd reduction will continue this fall but will be moderated somewhat by this summer's fawn crop.

The silver lining for hunters is that the 2006 EHD outbreak seems to have protected the west-central counties from this year's outbreak.

"We had extremely few reports this year from the area of last year's outbreak," Mitchell said. "The herd will recover in a short time from both outbreaks.

"Both last year and this year, individual properties may be hit hard and may take several years to recover but counties (as a whole) will recover rapidly. They were not hit as hard as some properties."

Mitchell said the second effect of the drought, though expected to be much smaller than that from EHD, may be an earlier than average crop harvest. This factor might make the deer more visible and vulnerable, he said, but this effect should be small because most crops are harvested every year by the start of deer firearm season.

"If more crops are harvested, that should slightly increase deer harvest and somewhat offset the EHD issue," Mitchell said. "Since last year's crop harvest was later than normal, the effect of crop harvest versus last year may be significant in some areas."

Rothhar1
November 15th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Yes, I believe the OBR has helped the herd a great deal but is that the only reason we are seeing more bucks and harvesting more mature bucks? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the OBR but there are many other variables that we need to consider that weren't around when it began....

1- The antler craze has created a different mindset than was around years ago so people are letting the smaller ones walk
2- Game management on private property wasn't around years ago and people didn't understand the buck/doe ratio and how it plays out
3- In line with #2, it's no longer considered taboo to kill a doe and actually encouraged
4- Modern equipment and techniques have made harvesting mature bucks easier thus more being harvested and seen in the taxidermy shops
*A muzzle loader or shotgun now having 200yrd+ range opposed to the old 100yrd max
*Archery equipment with more forgiveness, speed and better broadheads allows for shots past 50yrd where 20yrd used to be about the limit
*Education about scent control
*Trail cameras and other scouting tools not previously available
*Modern tree stands get you up 20+ft vs. the old 2x4 12ft stands
5- More hunters thus the big boys have less holes to slip through and less that die of old age.

Just some food for thought.

Ditto on most of it and then some!:) The only real way would be to Move gun back to the last of Nov and only allow gun to be in for about 4-5 days total break it up how you want or put it all together that is how to assure bigger bucks make it!

DEC
November 16th, 2007, 08:19 AM
There are more to the harvest numbers than many anti-OBR guys are seeing. The truth of the matter is OBR is purely an age structural shift that is working, not so much because of OBR, but because of what OBR is complementing. OBR is only a piece of the puzzle, an important one though IMO. There is no denying that as hunters, many (myself included) are maturing. Many are reaching a point where shooting basket racks just isn't what we want and most of us want bigger racks. With all due respect M4M, I seriously doubt 99% of hunters shoot the first buck that walks by, but if they did, then that is all the better argument for an aging buck herd as smarter bucks bed down and live another day. But what has happened at a higher rated is that maturing hunters are letting these 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer walk. Ultimately, many never score on the buck of their dreams that year, but some do and I believe that percentage is increasing as well. More deer (young and old) live another day. OBR has throttled back some of these killings of young deer by forcing those "on the bubble" so to speak to question "is this the deer that I want to burn my tag on?" And it has throttled back 6,000 double dippers (some of that 6,000 gets spread out in other kills, some make it another year).

Based on double dipping alone the theoretical number of bucks "saved" due to OBR would work out as follows.

Basically 6,000 less the harvest difference from one year to the next.

01-02: 6000-(47177-48357) = 7,180 more bucks
02-03: 6000-(49533-47177) = 3,644 more bucks
03-04: 6000-(54743-49533) = 790 more bucks
04-05: 6000-(52488-54743) = 8,255 more bucks
05-06: 6000-(49097-52488) = 9,391 more bucks

For a total over 5 years of 29,260 bucks saved from DOUBLE DIPPING alone. Now couple that with a maturing deer hunter. Add to that bucks that got the pass in hopes of a bigger deer. And all the sudden there are probably 55,000 or more bucks in addition due to OBR and other conditions. This is a staggering increase in bucks and the potential for you or I or any other hunter to put the buck of our dreams on the wall.

The only unknown factor is what number of bucks are lost to natural causes, car accidents, or other non-hunter related incidents. But still the overall number of saved bucks is impressive and you can thank OBR for it.

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 10:24 AM
Actualy the numbers you posted are all conjecture it would be great if that was what was happening however the actual harvest numbes are what shows the real story here there has been a shift from archery equipment that can be seen in liscenes sale figures toward gun hunting .

Also if you go with the numbers that are shown in my above post and say that archers killed 7552 in the 3 years before the 1 buck rule then your dubble dipping numbers are much lower a year at only 2517 a year would be the number you are looking for .I am not sure where you pulled that 6000 from but there is no evidance to support that .

IMO 2517 a year is not even worthy of compliment because if you average that out state wide to all 92 counties that mean only 27 bucks in each county got a pass there are the numbers supported with actual fact that in my oppinion is not very much and hardly worth the lost hunters and lost mony that we need in this state for the purchas of new equipment and land !

Redemption
November 16th, 2007, 10:38 AM
I would like to agree with you DEC but it is not that simple. You make it sound like these deer are the same as some type of commodity that can be stockpiled. They are not. In another year, most every deer that was "conserved" in the first season of OBR will be dead. At the end of the ten years, most every deer from the first 5 years will be dead no matter how it is killed. OBR is a trophy management tool and that is all it is, and it is one that doesn't work as proscribed by its champions.

The deer herd needs to be managed by the biologists not the ranks of jealous gun hunters. At least we know OBR will expire and then things will get back to the way that they should be and hopefully we can all laugh about the one buck fiasco and what it didn't do.

The only way to manage for trophies is to use personal restraint. Perhaps limiting the number of bucks that can be killed by shotgun is another idea. One thing is for certain, the same number of deer need to be killed each year to keep the herd in check.

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 10:44 AM
I would like to agree with you DEC but it is not that simple. You make it sound like these deer are the same as some type of commodity that can be stockpiled. They are not. In another year, most every deer that was "conserved" in the first season of OBR will be dead. At the end of the ten years, most every deer from the first 5 years will be dead no matter how it is killed. OBR is a trophy management tool and that is all it is, and it is one that doesn't work as proscribed by its champions.

The deer herd needs to be managed by the biologists not the ranks of jealous gun hunters. At least we know OBR will expire and then things will get back to the way that they should be and hopefully we can all laugh about the one buck fiasco and what it didn't do.

The only way to manage for trophies is to use personal restraint. Perhaps limiting the number of bucks that can be killed by shotgun is another idea. One thing is for certain, the same number of deer need to be killed each year to keep the herd in check.

I agree whole hartedly and an interesting fact that not alot of hoosier hunters may not no is Indiana has the lowest deer population in the midwest and also the lowest deer densities as well we are about 250,00 deer behind our nearest competitors!

dx2
November 16th, 2007, 10:56 AM
Regardless of the numbers which can be manipulated in many ways (interesting calcs though)....the simplest of reasoning has the most profound affect. As DEC said, the OBR forces us ALL to ask the question - "Is this the deer (buck) that I want to burn my tag on?". The proof is in the pictures of animals harvested.


There are more to the harvest numbers than many anti-OBR guys are seeing. ............OBR has throttled back some of these killings of young deer by forcing those "on the bubble" so to speak to question "is this the deer that I want to burn my tag on?"

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Regardless of the numbers which can be manipulated in many ways (interesting calcs though)....the simplest of reasoning has the most profound affect. As DEC said, the OBR forces us ALL to ask the question - "Is this the deer (buck) that I want to burn my tag on?". The proof is in the pictures of animals harvested.

Agreed and I belive that was coming anyway as the old guard hunters sliped out of the sport!:)

DocB
November 16th, 2007, 11:10 AM
While I like the OBR as it has created a shift in my thinking and has improved the herd I still think it has taken some of the fun factor out of hunting. I personally would like to see the one buck rule continue on state land as that's where it's needed the most. I would like to see private land go back to two bucks, one archery, one gun. I've been hunting with the same guys for 20 years. We have "deer camp" every year and I really look forward to it. It used to be that was the only weekend I hunted for deer. Now with my new obsession with archery I spend almost every weekend in October in a tree somewhere. It just always sucks though when someone gets a buck during archery and can't hunt the gun opener like we used to. Everyone always shows but it's just not the same.

Dog
November 16th, 2007, 11:32 AM
I know several hunters that would "settle" for a smaller buck during the last bit of first archery season and wait for the big one during firearm (I was one of them). These basket 8's, wide 6pts. and genetically gifted 1.5 year old 10 points are living. I was a double standard double dipper for several years. I know OBR makes a difference for me.

Scott.

flintcreek6412
November 16th, 2007, 12:41 PM
The proof is in the pictures of animals harvested.

Again, I am in favor of the OBR, but 10yrs ago the internet and magazines are not what they are now. We never saw most pictures of big bucks and like when I was a kid, we never took a deer to the taxidermist(no matter how big), we just hung the rack in the barn. So a lot of the perceived success may be simply from a greater exposure and appreciation of big deer. I find it very interesting that the Johnson buck record still holds from the 60's and the Hansen buck is over 10yrs old if I am correct. What have the hoosier records done since the OBR? I don't have time to look it up but I am curious.

Are we just getting a lot more 130-150" deer with the OBR or are we actually getting world class B&C deer as a result? Again, just curious, not trying to spark debate.

bschwein
November 16th, 2007, 01:17 PM
I would like to see them move the firearms seasons around for a year or two. I bet that would help a bunch. Anybody have any idea on whats keeping them from trying this. They could leave it open for a longer time for antlerless only if thats the problem!

dx2
November 16th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Excellent points, flintcreek. I don't know, but I would venture a guess that what you said about seeing more 130-150" deer is absolutely correct....however my answer to your last question would be - not neccessarily. Using the farm I hunt in OH as a basis for my opinion (OBR rule as well)....lots of deer taken the last 10 years in the 130-160" range. If we'd let those deer walk more often then we might see more B&C type bucks, but without the OBR there probably wouldn't be that many in that size/age range like you said. Even with the OBR, not many guys gonna let a 150" buck walk. What Dog just said is what makes the difference. $.02

Short firearms is the other thing OH has going for it. I haven't hunted it yet myself, but from what I know it's shotgun slug only for the week following thanksgiving (starting Monday to Sunday I believe to avoid crowds/incidents on a holiday weekend) and a muzzleloader week after christmas. No rifle. Makes sense to me.


Again, I am in favor of the OBR, but 10yrs ago the internet and magazines are not what they are now. We never saw most pictures of big bucks and like when I was a kid, we never took a deer to the taxidermist(no matter how big), we just hung the rack in the barn. So a lot of the perceived success may be simply from a greater exposure and appreciation of big deer. I find it very interesting that the Johnson buck record still holds from the 60's and the Hansen buck is over 10yrs old if I am correct. What have the hoosier records done since the OBR? I don't have time to look it up but I am curious.

Are we just getting a lot more 130-150" deer with the OBR or are we actually getting world class B&C deer as a result? Again, just curious, not trying to spark debate.

Redemption
November 16th, 2007, 02:19 PM
So................yeah, yeah, yeah one buck is great.... But it is not one buck.

No one has addressed the fact that now many counties can shoot up to five button bucks along with the one antlered deer. Are these button bucks being figured into the buck harvest or does it only include antlered deer when considering buck status? Why can I shoot these five button bucks right now, but next year when spikes cannot? Do we place more value on a deer because it has visible anlers rather than the fact that it is a male?

I personally set 140 as my bottom limit for shooting deer, 2 years ago it was 130. If everyone had this set of personal restrictions, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The deer I shot this year was high 160's, low 170's. I wish tomorrow I could be hunting with my boys rather than just sitting with them. Oh well, I can still shoot 3 bucks this year, they just have to be button bucks.

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 02:46 PM
Again, I am in favor of the OBR, but 10yrs ago the internet and magazines are not what they are now. We never saw most pictures of big bucks and like when I was a kid, we never took a deer to the taxidermist(no matter how big), we just hung the rack in the barn. So a lot of the perceived success may be simply from a greater exposure and appreciation of big deer. I find it very interesting that the Johnson buck record still holds from the 60's and the Hansen buck is over 10yrs old if I am correct. What have the hoosier records done since the OBR? I don't have time to look it up but I am curious.

Are we just getting a lot more 130-150" deer with the OBR or are we actually getting world class B&C deer as a result? Again, just curious, not trying to spark debate.

Actualy there has been no great jump in book buck entries as far as I can tell as of the last book that was printed and most of the deer going in to it seem to still averag between 140-150 just as before !And actualy only 2 bucks has cracked the typical alltime top 50 it was killed the first year of the OBR ,and 7 in the nontypical top 50 5 were shot the 1st year of OBR so no elp because of the OBR there.3 of them in 2003 only the second year of OBR so I am sure thay didn't go from a 75 inch basket to top 50 in just 1 year the book was put out 2003-2006 period so that was last year.HMMMMM Not much there !

OHbowhntr08
November 16th, 2007, 02:55 PM
i think its great! it really makes you think about what buck your going to take instead of "oh he's a decent deer and i have another buck tag" it forces serious hunters to take bigger more mature bucks instead of several immature bucks.

it also makes serious hunters to target one deer instead of oppurtunist hunters

just my opinion

pTac
November 16th, 2007, 03:06 PM
Lots of good points being brought up guys. Again, I believe the OBR works from the standpoint that it is forcing people to stop killing, or at least think twice about killing, ever little thing they see. I think allowing even a few bucks to survive to another year is making it better than before. I don't think this is the end all of ideas, but until the state initiates some form of better management program, we need something like this in place. I still think the ideas here, such as the earn a buck, moving the firearms season to a later date, etc. are ideas the the IDNR and their biologists need to start looking into. It would be great if we could rely on personal land management, but unfortunately, most of the land is owned by farmers, or at least allot of it, and a bunch of them just want the deer shot to save their crops, so they let anybody and everybody hunt their land. If we could get a larger percentage of the land into hunters hands, those who would grasp the management idea and run with it, then maybe we could put more stock into that idea. But until then, with only about 30-40 acres to hunt surrounded by a couple hundred acres of fields, and then OTHER PEOPLES woods, I can't rely on the neighbors to help out with the management that I would like to see. So, I must rely on the state to help out with some restrictions such as the OBR. Just my opinion. Lets keep it alive, this is a good debate I think with lots of good input!

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 03:14 PM
i think its great! it really makes you think about what buck your going to take instead of "oh he's a decent deer and i have another buck tag" it forces serious hunters to take bigger more mature bucks instead of several immature bucks.

it also makes serious hunters to target one deer instead of oppurtunist hunters

just my opinion

Well you might want to tell that to the Bowhunters who shot the 12 button bucks and 32 bucks that weighed less than 165 lbs field dressed none over 2 1/2 years and had 8 points to 2 point that they do not seem concerned about age or size because there was not one of them that was any where near mature however 15 hunters chose to take bucks from 175 pounds feild dressed up to 230 pound field dressed and 8-16 points mature deer for this area, that is about average here over the last 10 years .Now gun comes in Sat. the pile of young deer that will fall in my county as well as the state will be 75 % of the harvest as normal.

dx2
November 16th, 2007, 05:26 PM
In OH, less than 3" of antler is considered non-antlered...so in that state someone could shoot three button bucks or even spikes, but most folks wouldn't do that. It's usually a mistake or they've got so many bucks it don't matter. It's the mid-sized bucks folks can't help but shoot and this system forces them to think twice. It'd be nice if we all had the same goals and mindset when it comes to hunting deer, but that's not realistic.

Have fun hunting with your boys. Shoot a doe or BB if you need the meat or are you saying you can't even take a doe at this point? If you don't need the meet just enjoy the time spent in the woods with family and friends. Sure would like to see a pic of that big boy you killed this year - sounds awesome, congrats.

I guess you could always head for the border (any bordering state will do lol) if you wanted to pursue another trophy this year. Of course, I know that type of behaviour gets pricey. :wink:


No one has addressed the fact that now many counties can shoot up to five button bucks along with the one antlered deer. Are these button bucks being figured into the buck harvest or does it only include antlered deer when considering buck status? Why can I shoot these five button bucks right now, but next year when spikes cannot? Do we place more value on a deer because it has visible anlers rather than the fact that it is a male?

OHbowhntr08
November 16th, 2007, 09:56 PM
Well you might want to tell that to the Bowhunters who shot the 12 button bucks and 32 bucks that weighed less than 165 lbs field dressed none over 2 1/2 years and had 8 points to 2 point that they do not seem concerned about age or size because there was not one of them that was any where near mature however 15 hunters chose to take bucks from 175 pounds feild dressed up to 230 pound field dressed and 8-16 points mature deer for this area, that is about average here over the last 10 years .Now gun comes in Sat. the pile of young deer that will fall in my county as well as the state will be 75 % of the harvest as normal.


you are right they will be stacked like cord wood tomorrow. on our place first year bow hunters are allowed to take a small buck thats fine. just because everyone else is shooting the small bucks doesnt make it right for someone as passionate about you and i to say they are wrong. to each their own. the more people out hunting the better for our sport. and if that means a few small bucks are shot so be it. ill have a clean mind in knowing it wasnt me. yes i love hunting but im not going to get worked up over guys shooting some small bucks

Rothhar1
November 16th, 2007, 10:39 PM
you are right they will be stacked like cord wood tomorrow. on our place first year bow hunters are allowed to take a small buck thats fine. just because everyone else is shooting the small bucks doesnt make it right for someone as passionate about you and i to say they are wrong. to each their own. the more people out hunting the better for our sport. and if that means a few small bucks are shot so be it. ill have a clean mind in knowing it wasnt me. yes i love hunting but im not going to get worked up over guys shooting some small bucks

Oh I compleatly belive that every hunter should shoot what they want out there I guess that is the point to my thread above They could regulate the deer herd till the moon falls from the sky but there is never going to be a fix all program that my friend is strictly up to the indevidual hunters out there ! :)

Redemption
November 17th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Sure would like to see a pic of that big boy you killed this year - sounds awesome, congrats.


He's on here a couple of times. I think I posted him last in a thread called monsters only or something like that.

The comment about shooting three button bucks was facetious. They get a free pass and always will.

I can still kill 3 does but the excitement and anticipation are gone. If you have seen one antlerless deer, you have seen them all. Besides, I have already shot two with a bow. I will enjoy being out with the boys and if they score will happily post their mugs with their beasts! In another five years, we will all gun hunt bucks together.

pTac
November 25th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Well, as of now it is 79 to 6 in favor of the OBR! Any other opinions?

flintcreek6412
November 25th, 2007, 10:32 PM
And actualy only 2 bucks has cracked the typical alltime top 50 it was killed the first year of the OBR !

How about this for irony...A buddy of mine shot a 180" +/- net typical on opening firearms weekend in our county. And it was his first deer ever. It grossed about 190". And it was only 2 miles from my house:confused: You will likely read about it once the 60 days is up and it's officially scored. It will almost certainly be at the Indiana Deer/Turkey Expo. The hunter had no idea what he had accomplished until we saw the deer, crapped ourselves and then explained what he had.

mwaym
November 28th, 2007, 02:45 AM
I think it is working. Just look at all the Indiana buck posts from this year on this site ALONE !!!!! Great bucks !!!
I have seen better bucks the last 2 or 3 years anyways !!!! CLOSE !!!:embara:

willie
November 28th, 2007, 06:51 AM
Did i see more and bigger bucks in 2006 than 2001?

Yep.

Did i see more and bigger bucks in 2001 than 1996?

Yep..

Did i see more and bigger bucks in 1996 than 1991?

Yep.

Did i see more and bigger bucks in 1991 than 1986?

Yep.

What we are seeing is a natural progression of the deer herd in Indiana. Plus we have an aging deer hunter populations that has started to pass the small bucks voluntarily. The younger hunters are brought up on big buck videos and are starting with more selectivity than any of us old timers ever had.

Does Indiana have more and bigger bucks than ever before? Yes. we do. BUT - so does every state, including multi-buck limit states. State records are falling all over the place.

It is a natural prgression and the OBR has gotten credit for it. The "OBR just cam along at an opportune time" says a backer..

BTW - Only two of the top ten trophy producing states are one buck limit states.

The only thing that the OBR is doing for Indiana now is keeping the other pie in sky trophy ideas at bay. Nothing else will be approved as long as the OBR TRIAL is in effect.

DEC
November 28th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Same argument that doesn't hold water Woody.:wink:

So what is the best alternative Woody? Since this is so "pie in the sky", what do you suggest we go to in order to further improve the quality of bucks? Be careful what you post. Don't dare upset your fan boys on your site. :rolleyes:

So what is it? What do you in your infinite wisdom suggest? Re-arranging gun seasons ... can't do that, you'd offend your fan base. I know ... open up X-bows all seasons ... oh ... but that would bring out the true agendas, wouldn't it? ... I know I know ... go back to 2 bucks so that your fan boys can shoot the first 80" buck that walks under during archery (preferably with the X-bow) and "hold out" for that big buck during 32 days of gun slaughter ... Can you graph that for me?

What oh what is the solution oh Great WW?

willie
November 28th, 2007, 01:18 PM
Still with the personal attacks DEC? Gee, you even threw in "X-Bows" too. LOL... Do you think that will garner you support here? What a pity...

Please dispute that things were not getting better all along and that state records are not now beng set in states all over the map - even a lot that do not have an OBR.

This is NOT just an Indiana phenomenom.

Komi
November 28th, 2007, 01:29 PM
No one has addressed the fact that now many counties can shoot up to five button bucks along with the one antlered deer. Are these button bucks being figured into the buck harvest or does it only include antlered deer when considering buck status? Why can I shoot these five button bucks right now, but next year when spikes cannot? Do we place more value on a deer because it has visible anlers rather than the fact that it is a male?


I shot what I thought was a doe because the only way I could tell it was a buck was when I went to field dress does this mean I should have used my buck tag on it. Another thought is there are rare does with antlers and should these have to be turned in as a buck???? All it has on the temp tag is male or female so which would you check an antlered doe in as???

Redemption
November 28th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I shot what I thought was a doe because the only way I could tell it was a buck was when I went to field dress does this mean I should have used my buck tag on it. Another thought is there are rare does with antlers and should these have to be turned in as a buck???? All it has on the temp tag is male or female so which would you check an antlered doe in as???


Yes, if you can be selective in shooting bucks, you can be selective in shooting antlerless deer.

If it has antlers it is assumed to be male. The regulations govern antlerless and antlered deer. If in the rare occassion someone shoots an antlered doe, it should be tagged as a buck (antlered). Deer with antlers are rightfully presumed to be bucks.

You can argue, but whoever shoots an antlered doe, thought good and well it was a buck. People know an antlerless deer could possibly be a button buck. They should have to look closer.

The last antlered doe I saw was in Tippecanoe last year and the local CO allowed it to be tagged as adoe. It had non descending testicles and a vagina.

DEC
November 28th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Nope, not looking for pitty support against your X-bow agenda. I could care less about X-bows actually and you know that. Why you feel so strongly against OBR is baffling to me. The record books prove it is a valuable tool. The quantity of bucks available to hunt prove it is a valuable tool. The quality of bucks taken (gun and bow) prove it is a valuable tool.

It is a tool in the tool box of QDM. It is a tool in the tool box of spreading opportunity to give more hunters a chance at a mature deer. It is not the means to the end, it is simply a valuable tool. I figured as a big buck hunter who has taken his share of fine mature bucks, you of all people would finally get it. But then oh yea ... I forgot ... it is I who is greedy being content with 0 or 1 mature bucks per year and NOT you who wants nothing more than to go back to 2 bucks per year. I forgot about your new definition of greed.:rolleyes:

Redemption
November 28th, 2007, 06:52 PM
Hey DEC, I could grudgingly go along with the premise of a TRUE OBR if button bucks were included in the OBR. They aren't so the whole thing is pointless. If the number of antlerless bucks were included then MAYBE it would be logical. The way it is now, it sadly is ridiculous.

hauksniffer
January 3rd, 2008, 12:03 PM
I feel the one buck rule is nice for Indiana but the gun season is what hurts us the most. Compress it down and we could have the quality of buck like our surrounding states (IL,OH). The food and genetics are good enough to produce world class bucks but there is just to many days in the season to use a gun. I think this was overlooked when they brought on the one buck rule. Anyone agree?

pTac
January 3rd, 2008, 02:07 PM
I feel the one buck rule is nice for Indiana but the gun season is what hurts us the most. Compress it down and we could have the quality of buck like our surrounding states (IL,OH). The food and genetics are good enough to produce world class bucks but there is just to many days in the season to use a gun. I think this was overlooked when they brought on the one buck rule. Anyone agree?

I agree totally, but then again, I don't really like it when the orange army invades anyway :confused: ! It wouldn't be so bad if all gun hunters were ethical, but there are way to many gun hunters that will shoot at anything that moves, and I mean ANYTHING! And then you have the "spray and pray" mentality people! Not everyone is like that, but unfortunately there are entirely too many that are. JMO

bowtechguy19
January 4th, 2008, 12:42 PM
I feel the one buck rule is nice for Indiana but the gun season is what hurts us the most. Compress it down and we could have the quality of buck like our surrounding states (IL,OH). The food and genetics are good enough to produce world class bucks but there is just to many days in the season to use a gun. I think this was overlooked when they brought on the one buck rule. Anyone agree?

Totally agree as well!

BTG19