how many of you squat and deadlift shoeless?

[advobwhite]

just wondering who all squats and deadlifts w/o shoes, or with wrestling shoes or something like that? i started a while back after talking to a competition powerlifter.....never looked back, i'm able to do more weight, my form improved dramatically, and it feels alot better...not to mention, you look alot cooler in the gym!

[TCR1]

I prefer to deadlift in nike frees, which are about as close to shoeless as it gets. If you want to squat heavy, get a pair of weightlifting shoes. Better stability and no give, as well as puts your body into an alignment that mimics increased better ankle flexibility so the squat can go deep enough.

Obviously, we all know the whole "below ninety degrees is horrible" thing was made up by a weak arse doctor trying to bring everyone else down. Deep and heavy...yep, thats what we are looking for

Plus to be competition legal the hip crease must be below the patella

[Scooter Trash]

For deadlifting you want to be as flat and as close to the ground as you can get. Most powerlifters deadlift in wrestling shoes or slippers. Also depending on how your built, you can lift conventional or sumo style. Conventional uses alot more lower back. Sumo uses more of your adductor muscles in your thighs.
I like to squat and deadlift in chuck taylors. their as about as flat and close to the ground as you can get. Some like to squat with safety squat shoes that are lifted in the back and usually have a velcro strap on the top for support. I wouldn't do a whole lot of heavy squatting or deadlifting with no support on your feet.
I would lift in what feels the most comfortable and stable for you. As long as you break parallel and use good form is the main thing. Just remember " If your sore, do more".

[Terps1]

i go shoe less whenevr possible, converse chucks are a great shoe to lift in they get your feet flat to the floor...that being said, be careful going shoeless i just deaded last weekend barefoot and i went for my 6th or so rep of 10 (lighter weight) and now my right foot is in awful pain like i pulled a tendon or ligament or whatever on the outside of my foot, so needless to say im going to flat shoes again for the support. for me i think it was because i tend to walk on the outside of my feet naturally so that could have been a reason.

[armedic1]

I use the otomix shoes.

[hoythunter91]

i use scate boarding shoes and they work awsome

[JLT1975]

I squat and DL barefoot at home, and with my Nike Free 3.0 in the gym.

Been doing this for about 6 months after some work with an awesome Personal Trainer, who explained what you can read from someones feet when they do a squat.

Something along the lines of if the feet twist out when squatting you have potentially a weakness in the glute medius muscles and a tightness of the muscles on the inside of the leg for example.

Many shoes will alter which muscles you use in the movement. With bare feet your feet get to work harder to control and balance you during the movement. Basically you'll develop a more stable movement in bare feet.

My squats and DLs have certainly improved because of this.

JLT

[wyoming4x4]

One of the things I used to do when lifting is not use supports and work form. working the form/technique is key. Like a weight belt. When I lifted without I'm not able to lift as strong. When I put weight belt on I gain almost 100lbs on squat/legal lift. As time went on and liftting without belt or shoes I gradually got stronger and eventually made up that 100 lb and my squat lifting increased. I eventually got to my personel best of 2.5 time my body weight and I weighed 270 at the time. People say you have to wear these things but I believe it cheats you out of strength potential in some cases. Things you can do are lift with belt one week and then without. Lifting without really works your core muscles. don't lift to much weight and hurt yourself, lift smart. I had to lift late at night by myself and had to be smart because of my crazy work schedule. Something to consider and possibly try.

[TWP]

I take my shoes off to both squat and deadlift, front squats always help when using my old oly shoes, but going to work on training without shoes for my sprint work and as much lifting as possible. Why, you may ask??? Because it's a free damn country and I'm not gonna let the man get me down!!! And I've been reading quite a bit about natural running patterns and posture...basically just goofing off and trying to strengthen my ankles as well.

Anybody do any sprint work bare foot???

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by TWP

I take my shoes off to both squat and deadlift, front squats always help when using my old oly shoes, but going to work on training without shoes for my sprint work and as much lifting as possible. Why, you may ask??? Because it's a free damn country and I'm not gonna let the man get me down!!! And I've been reading quite a bit about natural running patterns and posture...basically just goofing off and trying to strengthen my ankles as well.

Anybody do any sprint work bare foot???

Running bare foot freaks me out, but I did a workout that had a short run in it barefoot, but that was on really soft grass (rained the night before). I have heard some great advantages to it, just scares me.

[silvercad]

Heel elavated...is more comfortable (for me), ever see guy's squat off a 2 x 4?


I could not imagine squatting 550lbs. in bare feet....ouch!

[KYBowhunter]

Originally Posted by silvercad

Heel elavated...is more comfortable (for me), ever see guy's squat off a 2 x 4?


I could not imagine squatting 550lbs. in bare feet....ouch!

Try it, you will be amazed at the difference.

I use to squat in my running shoes until I saw this thread a couple weeks ago. Thought I would try it. Now I won't squat any other way.

[drockw]

It is better to squat barefoot(in my experience) BUT... My colleges' gym wont allow no shoes in the gym b/c of safety issues obviously

[advobwhite]

I hate back belts. You should only use stuff like that for maximal lifts. If you do it all the time, you can get a dependence on it. i've heard of running barefoot, but i'll never do it.

[Fletch Helical]

Can someone shed some light as to why squatting and deadlifting barefoot is "better"?

I'm in the middle of a P90x cycle at the moment which I'll be done with in a month. After that I was planning on doing some heavy weight training for a few months (which will include squats and deadlifts) then another cycle of P90x.

I've seen people squat with a 2x4 under their heels in the gym years ago but I thought it was something more of just a variation or having to do with getting more calf work into it somehow.

[KYBowhunter]

Originally Posted by drockw

It is better to squat barefoot(in my experience) BUT... My colleges' gym wont allow no shoes in the gym b/c of safety issues obviously

I always loosen my laces but keep my shoes on. Right before I do a set I will slip my feet out.

[FSUBIGMAC]

Some good shoes to consider: Powerlifting shoes, Puma's (with the flat sole), Chucky T's baby, and wrestling shoes (my choice b/c I have about 10 pair). Basketball or Cross Training shoes aren't bad because thay have less of a heel than running shoes

Tennis shoes (or shoes with more of a heel) are bad because of the angle they put you in makes it tougher for proper form of triple extension. Triple extentsion is fancy schmancy way of explaining how the ankle, knees and hip joint move during a squat motion. Proper triple extension (a squat) is performed by sitting BACK with the hips. The knees should move very litte if not at all. I agree 100% with TCR1 that going deep on squats is the way to go. Scientific studies show that this does not cause knee problems. They key is the relationship of the knees and the toes. Your knees should NEVER go beyond your toes. This causes overextension of the patella tendon --- hence knee pain. So when you squat you should look something like this (but lower )

_____________
l
l
l
l
l
------

[FSUBIGMAC]

OK forget the drawing above.... that did not post the way I created it.... just be perpendicular at every joint

[advobwhite]

+1 on deep squats. more recent xray studies on powerlifters, bodybuilders, and untrained people have shown that powerlifters that squat deep have better knees than bodybuilders who might squat to parallel, and they both have better knees than untrained peoples.

and the guy who told me is a heavyweight powerlifter, and he explained that regular running shoes have the extra cushion(for running) and this is bad for lifting, because you can't lift as much, due to smaller muscles having to exert more. I trusted this guy because the week before, I saw him working out with 350 or so for bent rows, repping it out like i would rep out 95...so i think he knows what he's talking about. He uses wrestling shoes, and I've done research and chuck taylors seem to be another favorite.

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

+1 on deep squats. more recent xray studies on powerlifters, bodybuilders, and untrained people have shown that powerlifters that squat deep have better knees than bodybuilders who might squat to parallel, and they both have better knees than untrained peoples.

and the guy who told me is a heavyweight powerlifter, and he explained that regular running shoes have the extra cushion(for running) and this is bad for lifting, because you can't lift as much, due to smaller muscles having to exert more. I trusted this guy because the week before, I saw him working out with 350 or so for bent rows, repping it out like i would rep out 95...so i think he knows what he's talking about. He uses wrestling shoes, and I've done research and chuck taylors seem to be another favorite.

I think Advobwhite and FSUBigmac and I would get along great in a gym

the reason gushy shoes suck for squatting is that they do not allow the transfer of your power against the floor to directly correlate to power against thebar (side bar: neither does a weak core) on your back which is situate immediately above your ankle, which is immediately below your hips. the advantage of squatting deep is that it balances the muscles on either side of your knee as opposed to putting all the pressure on the knee from the quadriceps as you hit parallel. it is important to maintain tension in the muscles into the "hole" or bottom of ther squat so that the elastic tension of your muscles can be recruited. Further, the advantage of putting a small riser under the heel of the foot is to mimic better ankle flexibility which allows for a deeper squat. By small, I mean like a 2.5# plate, a 2x4 is for strippers to practic standing in high heels . If you aren't going below parallel with a riser under your feet, then the riser is useless to you. And another further, the advantage of a weightlifting shoe (FOR SQUATTING, cleaning, jerking, and snatching) is that they have a solid wood heel that provides a terrific platform to drive from, and they slightly elevate the heel to mimic increased ankle flexibility.

Deadlifting is an entirely different animal ( i still prefer my Nike frees). I am unsure if I agree with the location of the knee staying behind the toes, especially on an extremely heavy clean or snatch. I focus on keeping my knees driven wide and tracking over my toes, but I think that it does extend out from my toes slightly.


If you check out shadowdenlifting on youtube, I have some video of me at my second or third weightlifting meet. You can see some horribly ugle body weight snatch and some decent cleans. My jerks were awful too! I'll have to get some better video up now that I am more proficient. But you can see the depth of squat that is butt to ankles.

Belts are for maximal efforts or to help a trainee that is sore to continue training if desired. I have used my belt for heavy squat programs and found I became reliant on it mentally more than anything.

Wrist wraps have their place as well, but if you can't hang onto the bar yourself, you really can't lift it They are good for multi-rep sets of the dynamic lifts and heavy snatch/clean pulls. I personally don't like straps for any clean movement because they bind my wrists and thats not cool at all.

Those are my opinions at least

[advobwhite]

I agree with the knee going beyond the foot. Mine never do, but thats natural for me. If something is natural, I'm not gonna train my body to go against its instincts . I use wrist wraps for certain things because my wrists are a limiting factor for me, because I've got bad wrists. Any time I go up to 175 or higher on bench, 135 or higher on military and any time I do dips, and don't have wrist wraps to help support me, my wrists hurt alot for about 3 days.

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

I agree with the knee going beyond the foot. Mine never do, but thats natural for me. If something is natural, I'm not gonna train my body to go against its instincts . I use wrist wraps for certain things because my wrists are a limiting factor for me, because I've got bad wrists. Any time I go up to 175 or higher on bench, 135 or higher on military and any time I do dips, and don't have wrist wraps to help support me, my wrists hurt alot for about 3 days.

Wrist wraps are legit...I meant wrist straps that hold the weight of the bar as opposed to the grip of the hands. I need to look into wraps as my wrists are horribly weak and inflexible and I am not sure why...I have worked and worked on them with flexibility and chiropractic.

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by TCR1

Wrist wraps are legit...I meant wrist straps that hold the weight of the bar as opposed to the grip of the hands. I need to look into wraps as my wrists are horribly weak and inflexible and I am not sure why...I have worked and worked on them with flexibility and chiropractic.

Oh, I never use a wrist wrap....I tried it once and hated it. I agree that unless you are working with maximal weight, you shouldn't do it.

[FSUBIGMAC]

TCR -- I will try to explain what I mean by the knees over the toes thing

SO if you are looking at a squat from a side view, pretent there is a string hanging from the knees. That string should not pass the toes. Like I stated, when the knees go past the toes the patella tendon is overstretch, thus causing knee pain. Think of a football player who cuts real hard, If all his bodyweight is traveling in one direction the momentum might cause the knee to move over the past the toes, thus causing the patella tendon to support all his weight -- and that is where you see patella problems

[savedbygrace]

I've only deadlifted and squated in whatever shoes I had on.

[bigscott]

Originally Posted by TCR1

I prefer to deadlift in nike frees, which are about as close to shoeless as it gets. If you want to squat heavy, get a pair of weightlifting shoes. Better stability and no give, as well as puts your body into an alignment that mimics increased better ankle flexibility so the squat can go deep enough.

Obviously, we all know the whole "below ninety degrees is horrible" thing was made up by a weak arse doctor trying to bring everyone else down. Deep and heavy...yep, thats what we are looking for

Plus to be competition legal the hip crease must be below the patella

arse to the floor is the only way

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by FSUBIGMAC

TCR -- I will try to explain what I mean by the knees over the toes thing

SO if you are looking at a squat from a side view, pretent there is a string hanging from the knees. That string should not pass the toes. Like I stated, when the knees go past the toes the patella tendon is overstretch, thus causing knee pain. Think of a football player who cuts real hard, If all his bodyweight is traveling in one direction the momentum might cause the knee to move over the past the toes, thus causing the patella tendon to support all his weight -- and that is where you see patella problems

I am suddenly reminded of an ex volleyball playing friend of mine who had to gto an ortho surgeon who specializes in sports medicine...her patella got shifted to the side or something....

[apple123egg]

I use normal sport shoes.

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by FSUBIGMAC

TCR -- I will try to explain what I mean by the knees over the toes thing

SO if you are looking at a squat from a side view, pretent there is a string hanging from the knees. That string should not pass the toes. Like I stated, when the knees go past the toes the patella tendon is overstretch, thus causing knee pain. Think of a football player who cuts real hard, If all his bodyweight is traveling in one direction the momentum might cause the knee to move over the past the toes, thus causing the patella tendon to support all his weight -- and that is where you see patella problems

I understood. My problem is that my knees go beyond my toes.

Like these:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...d1478cc4014d54

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...8d3076cde74063

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...ogoRigert3.jpg

[FSUBIGMAC]

Yeah thats bad... and painful...im gonna go ice my knees now after looking at that. Take into account though -- i come from a little different background --- I prefer my athletes to sit back with the hips -- this puts more focus on the gluets and hip thrust --- which is most important aspect of football for explosion

Originally Posted by TCR1

I understood. My problem is that my knees go beyond my toes.

Like these:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...d1478cc4014d54

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...8d3076cde74063

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...ogoRigert3.jpg

[advobwhite]

yeah, its more a different focus. Most athletes don't have the flexibility to squat like olympic athletes. FSUBigMac is probably a football coach, and as such, he'd probably have his athlets doing power cleans or half cleans over olympic cleans.

[TWP]

Please will somebody send me a link that has anybody free squatting over 500 lbs that their knees do NOT go over their toes? And yes I'm talking about parallel squatting. I have tried forever to find this, however, without utilizing a box squat???? The weight of the bar has to stay in line with the midline of the foot/body on the way up and down...otherwise you miss the squat. I have taken video of myself, my training partners and even watched some of the legends of the game in person. I am no hoss but I have squatted 525 raw in a meet at 6'1" and only 206lbs so I'm not built to squat. Maybe this is why I can't seem to do it without my knees coming forward just a little??? But to get to parallel and keeping the weight over the midline of your foot you either have to 1) have your knees move over your toes 2) have to break at the waist so bad you turn the movement into a goodmorning. But then again, if you like to squat EXTRA wide ala Westside and use triple ply canvas you just might be able to sit back against the suit enough to let it work.

My experience is either box squat or squat high to prevent your knees from coming over your toes. Hell, that is why Joe Defranco and Louie Simmons do pretty much nothing but box squat variations.

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by TWP

Please will somebody send me a link that has anybody free squatting over 500 lbs that their knees do NOT go over their toes? And yes I'm talking about parallel squatting. I have tried forever to find this, however, without utilizing a box squat???? The weight of the bar has to stay in line with the midline of the foot/body on the way up and down...otherwise you miss the squat. I have taken video of myself, my training partners and even watched some of the legends of the game in person. I am no hoss but I have squatted 525 raw in a meet at 6'1" and only 206lbs so I'm not built to squat. Maybe this is why I can't seem to do it without my knees coming forward just a little??? But to get to parallel and keeping the weight over the midline of your foot you either have to 1) have your knees move over your toes 2) have to break at the waist so bad you turn the movement into a goodmorning. But then again, if you like to squat EXTRA wide ala Westside and use triple ply canvas you just might be able to sit back against the suit enough to let it work.

My experience is either box squat or squat high to prevent your knees from coming over your toes. Hell, that is why Joe Defranco and Louie Simmons do pretty much nothing but box squat variations.

if you look at either of those coach's athletes, you'll kinda get the idea that they know what they are doing.