Update, and help (again)

[King Country]

Couldn't find my old thread, but I started out at 95kg (about 210 pound), with the help of everyone here I'm now at 70kg (about 155 pound). Now that the wobbly stuff has gone (not embarrassed to get naked in pulic now, not that I have, I'll just stick to typing naked, not that I am ) I'm trying to get a bit more of a frame going.
I've picked up one of those Total gym things (because everyone wants to be Chuck Norris, but not as ugly) http://www.totalgym.com/index.html, and it seems to be going ok, although I don't have any type of plan to work to. I'm doing mostly upper body stuff, and thats where I need some help.
Can someone tell me how many of what I should be doing, or should I keep going to failure? And if I don't hurt the day after, should I get back on and do it again? I read somewhere (ahh yes, internet) that the hurt afterwards is the muscle rebuilding and to give it rest until it feels ok, but if its not hurting, whats that mean?
Thanks for the help so far

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by King Country

Couldn't find my old thread, but I started out at 95kg (about 210 pound), with the help of everyone here I'm now at 70kg (about 155 pound). Now that the wobbly stuff has gone (not embarrassed to get naked in pulic now, not that I have, I'll just stick to typing naked, not that I am ) I'm trying to get a bit more of a frame going.
I've picked up one of those Total gym things (because everyone wants to be Chuck Norris, but not as ugly) http://www.totalgym.com/index.html, and it seems to be going ok, although I don't have any type of plan to work to. I'm doing mostly upper body stuff, and thats where I need some help.
Can someone tell me how many of what I should be doing, or should I keep going to failure? And if I don't hurt the day after, should I get back on and do it again? I read somewhere (ahh yes, internet) that the hurt afterwards is the muscle rebuilding and to give it rest until it feels ok, but if its not hurting, whats that mean?
Thanks for the help so far

Don't go to failure every day. Hurting is not neccesarily good. It is likely better to control volume and soreness and train more regulalrly. Having said that, just because youar e sore, doesn't mean you get a pass from training like they used to say.

In general, people break training into three periods (periodization), muscular endurance, Muscular volumization, and muscular strength. These areas are targeted by different volumes of training and how many sets are done. Muscular endurance is generally lighter weight (relative) where the athlete does 2-3 sets of anywhere from 12-20 reps for each set of each esercise. Generally, 3-4 exercises for the muscle group trained. Muscular volumization is done in a rep range of 8-12 and sets of 4-6 per exercise with 4-6 exercises per muscle group. Finally, muscular strength comes at lower reps, more sets, and lower number of exercises per muscle group. I'm pretty fond of sets of 3. 10 sets of 3 is enough to knock me cold if I am squatting. JHaven't done 10 sets of 3 for anything lse cause i have a leg bias. Without training legs hard, you are handicapping yourself.

Keep in mind this is conventional thinking. I don't follow a strict periodization like this, though I do periodize. I can't fully explain how I do here, without writing a thesis on it.

Hope that is helpful.

Oh yeah, you should be hitting a failure point near the end of your latter sets regardless of the period you are in.

[King Country]

Thanks, thats a great help

[advobwhite]

the soreness comes from eccentric(negative) portion of the lift. this is why olympic athletes can train upwards of 2-3 times a day, there is no negative part, so no soreness. also, if you are a person who believes in training the CNS, not muscles yo would probably do lifts faster, which would also reduce soreness. don't go by how "sore" you feel my buddy does this and for this reason trains to failure every workout....and that is one reason why i don't train w/ him alot. check out my thread on how i'm periodizing my workouts. you'll get an idea.

[King Country]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

the soreness comes from eccentric(negative) portion of the lift. this is why olympic athletes can train upwards of 2-3 times a day, there is no negative part, so no soreness. also, if you are a person who believes in training the CNS, not muscles yo would probably do lifts faster, which would also reduce soreness. don't go by how "sore" you feel my buddy does this and for this reason trains to failure every workout....and that is one reason why i don't train w/ him alot. check out my thread on how i'm periodizing my workouts. you'll get an idea.

I just had a look through your other thread about the periodization, and that made it a lot clearer, I'm not going to steal your idea, but I am going to liberate a bit of it Thanks for the help

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally Posted by TCR1

Don't go to failure every day. Hurting is not neccesarily good. It is likely better to control volume and soreness and train more regulalrly. Having said that, just because youar e sore, doesn't mean you get a pass from training like they used to say.

In general, people break training into three periods (periodization), muscular endurance, Muscular volumization, and muscular strength. These areas are targeted by different volumes of training and how many sets are done. Muscular endurance is generally lighter weight (relative) where the athlete does 2-3 sets of anywhere from 12-20 reps for each set of each esercise. Generally, 3-4 exercises for the muscle group trained. Muscular volumization is done in a rep range of 8-12 and sets of 4-6 per exercise with 4-6 exercises per muscle group. Finally, muscular strength comes at lower reps, more sets, and lower number of exercises per muscle group. I'm pretty fond of sets of 3. 10 sets of 3 is enough to knock me cold if I am squatting. JHaven't done 10 sets of 3 for anything lse cause i have a leg bias. Without training legs hard, you are handicapping yourself.

Keep in mind this is conventional thinking. I don't follow a strict periodization like this, though I do periodize. I can't fully explain how I do here, without writing a thesis on it.

Hope that is helpful.

Oh yeah, you should be hitting a failure point near the end of your latter sets regardless of the period you are in.

+1 Good advice!

I'll add a little more. For generall or overall weightloss...I strongly promote muscle confusion and metabolic style training...where different exercises are used from work-out to work-out involving very little rest inbetween sets and keeping the heart rate high.

Ray

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by BLACK WOLF

+1 Good advice!

I'll add a little more. For generall or overall weightloss...I strongly promote muscle confusion and metabolic style training...where different exercises are used from work-out to work-out involving very little rest inbetween sets and keeping the heart rate high.

Ray

my fav way of doing this is supersetting, tri setting, or even quad setting. ie, benchpress, squat, pullup, glute ham raise, with heavy weights, resting 30 secs-1 min between each set(for heavier weights, i use 1 min, for lower weights i use 30 secs). the whole workout can last about 30 mins, and you get weights and cardio

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

my fav way of doing this is supersetting, tri setting, or even quad setting. ie, benchpress, squat, pullup, glute ham raise, with heavy weights, resting 30 secs-1 min between each set(for heavier weights, i use 1 min, for lower weights i use 30 secs). the whole workout can last about 30 mins, and you get weights and cardio

+1 EXACTLY!

Ray

[TCR1]

Originally Posted by BLACK WOLF

+1 EXACTLY!

Ray

I'm a crossfit junkie, so I know to which you speak.

[advobwhite]

uh oh, he drank the koolaid.

and you don't seem like a crossfit junkie

[savedbygrace]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

my fav way of doing this is supersetting, tri setting, or even quad setting. ie, benchpress, squat, pullup, glute ham raise, with heavy weights, resting 30 secs-1 min between each set(for heavier weights, i use 1 min, for lower weights i use 30 secs). the whole workout can last about 30 mins, and you get weights and cardio

With each set, are you trying to do "x" amount of reps or reps till failure?

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by savedbygrace

With each set, are you trying to do "x" amount of reps or reps till failure?

i rarely lift till failure, and especially not with heavier weights. IMHO, and from personal experience, when you approach failure, your form slips, and thats when you are more likely to get injured...couple that with heavy weights, and you are a sports medicine doc and therapist's best friend...when i do go to failure, its generally with more volume, and only when I have a spotter, or if I'm using dumbbells instead of barbells, or something like that.

anyway, it depends. i do different stuff. right now i'm just doing 5x5, with 2 warm up sets that gradually go up to my 3 work sets, that are all tough. i'm doing an experiment right now, to see what gives me the best results. right now i'm doing 6 weeks of 5x5, and in 2 weeks, i go back to 25 reps with 4-6 rep max, stopping approx 1 rep before a break in form, or when the weight/rep slows down. i'll be doing that for 6 weeks, and I'll post up with results. i tried both, and both seemed to work, and counting reps instead of a set rep/set scheme left me more refreshed, but since i didn't have a log of workouts, I don't know for sure which gave me better results. when i get done with my current 20'ish week schedule, i'm probably going to go on the velocity diet and use those same principles, going to 35 reps, with my 6-8 rep max.

[savedbygrace]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

i rarely lift till failure, and especially not with heavier weights. IMHO, and from personal experience, when you approach failure, your form slips, and thats when you are more likely to get injured...couple that with heavy weights, and you are a sports medicine doc and therapist's best friend...when i do go to failure, its generally with more volume, and only when I have a spotter, or if I'm using dumbbells instead of barbells, or something like that.

anyway, it depends. i do different stuff. right now i'm just doing 5x5, with 2 warm up sets that gradually go up to my 3 work sets, that are all tough. i'm doing an experiment right now, to see what gives me the best results. right now i'm doing 6 weeks of 5x5, and in 2 weeks, i go back to 25 reps with 4-6 rep max, stopping approx 1 rep before a break in form, or when the weight/rep slows down. i'll be doing that for 6 weeks, and I'll post up with results. i tried both, and both seemed to work, and counting reps instead of a set rep/set scheme left me more refreshed, but since i didn't have a log of workouts, I don't know for sure which gave me better results. when i get done with my current 20'ish week schedule, i'm probably going to go on the velocity diet and use those same principles, going to 35 reps, with my 6-8 rep max.

Cool beans. Please post your findings when you're finished.

[advobwhite]

the thing about 5x5, is that the way i do it, i do 2 warm up sets, and go up to 3 sets, which are heavy, but by going to a set number of reps, you keep the weight the same after you warm up, so you'll be doing more total volume with the heavier weights.

[savedbygrace]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

the thing about 5x5, is that the way i do it, i do 2 warm up sets, and go up to 3 sets, which are heavy, but by going to a set number of reps, you keep the weight the same after you warm up, so you'll be doing more total volume with the heavier weights.

So your weight is the same on the first 2 sets, and on the last 3 you go up in weight with each set correct? Your fifth and last set being your heaviest correct?

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by savedbygrace

So your weight is the same on the first 2 sets, and on the last 3 you go up in weight with each set correct? Your fifth and last set being your heaviest correct?

just as an example, i'll let you know what i did with dips today, altho i didn't finish cuz i was very sluggish today...

bodyweight + 30 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 40 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5

each set of 50 lbs, i'm either 1 rep away from finishing or i can't do another rep. today, like i said i was sluggish, so i went down to 45 for the last 2 sets, but when i finish that, i go up 10 lbs next workout, OR if i don't finish, i keep at it till i do finish. since i'm resting 1 min between sets, and doing a tri set between squats, pullups, and dips, i get 3 mins of rest between each set of dips, so i'm almost fully recovered, allowing me to lift heavier.

[savedbygrace]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

just as an example, i'll let you know what i did with dips today, altho i didn't finish cuz i was very sluggish today...

bodyweight + 30 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 40 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5
bodyweight + 50 lbs x 5

each set of 50 lbs, i'm either 1 rep away from finishing or i can't do another rep. today, like i said i was sluggish, so i went down to 45 for the last 2 sets, but when i finish that, i go up 10 lbs next workout, OR if i don't finish, i keep at it till i do finish. since i'm resting 1 min between sets, and doing a tri set between squats, pullups, and dips, i get 3 mins of rest between each set of dips, so i'm almost fully recovered, allowing me to lift heavier.

Ok, I gotcha. I tried the 5x5 yesterday evening and I REALLY liked it. I may not have set up my weights the correct way and due to the gym being closed I had to use my free weights at home which limits me to what I can do...but I ended up doing bench (normal, close and wide grip), squats, deadlifts and lunges. I started my first set out at a certain weight and added weight with each set and WOW, I didnt think I would get as tired as I would...but with only taking 30sec in between sets, I got in plenty of rest but it was just enough to keep my cardio going plus getting the good workout from the weights. I really like this method.

[advobwhite]

Originally Posted by savedbygrace

Ok, I gotcha. I tried the 5x5 yesterday evening and I REALLY liked it. I may not have set up my weights the correct way and due to the gym being closed I had to use my free weights at home which limits me to what I can do...but I ended up doing bench (normal, close and wide grip), squats, deadlifts and lunges. I started my first set out at a certain weight and added weight with each set and WOW, I didnt think I would get as tired as I would...but with only taking 30sec in between sets, I got in plenty of rest but it was just enough to keep my cardio going plus getting the good workout from the weights. I really like this method.

i'd take out either deads or squats, and substitute lunges for either pullup or row variant. if you go with sufficient weighton squats OR deads, you SHOULDN'T be able to do both, without puking a spleen or something. 1 squat or dead variant is sufficient for one workout, if you are gonna do 3 lifts, go with push, pull, squat/dead variant, with 45-1 min rest(my favorite if i plan on going heavier), or 4 lifts, with push, pull, squat/dead variant, and then a glute/ham movement, such as hypers, reverse hypers, glute ham raise, stiff leg deadlift, etc....

ie:

dips, pullups, sumo deadlifts

or

military press, T-bar rows, front squat, glute ham raise.


for heavier weights, I do 3, with 1 min rest for better recovery, limit exhaustion, for more cardio effect, i drop the rest to 30 secs, and throw in a 4th.

[savedbygrace]

Originally Posted by advobwhite

i'd take out either deads or squats, and substitute lunges for either pullup or row variant. if you go with sufficient weighton squats OR deads, you SHOULDN'T be able to do both, without puking a spleen or something. 1 squat or dead variant is sufficient for one workout, if you are gonna do 3 lifts, go with push, pull, squat/dead variant, with 45-1 min rest(my favorite if i plan on going heavier), or 4 lifts, with push, pull, squat/dead variant, and then a glute/ham movement, such as hypers, reverse hypers, glute ham raise, stiff leg deadlift, etc....

ie:

dips, pullups, sumo deadlifts

or

military press, T-bar rows, front squat, glute ham raise.


for heavier weights, I do 3, with 1 min rest for better recovery, limit exhaustion, for more cardio effect, i drop the rest to 30 secs, and throw in a 4th.

Gotcha. Will do.