November 4th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Super-tuning single cam bows...
Here is my current process for super tuning single cam bows. I have refined this process by tuning about 20 bows now with a wide range of arrows and broadheads. This is worth doing even if you plan to shoot mechanical heads as you will ensure you get optimal power to your arrow.
One of the major differences I have found is that cam lean must be correct to get bullet holes. And I do not adjust the rest side-to-side until I get the cam lean right for bullet holes through paper. Also, I will only shoot a bare shaft through paper. Fletching prevents getting a clear picture of how the arrow is flying.
If someone with experience with other cam set-ups, I'd like to hear how they differ. I'm not a Mathews fan boy, but I do own all Mathews bows which happen to be single cam bows. I have setup and tuned several Hoyt's that my friends own, but only did one twin-cam bow. Bowtech's are rare in southern California - I've only seen one.
Tools I use include bow press, bow vice, string level, arrow level, allen wrenches, paper tuning rack, and tape measure.
Super Tuning your Single-cam Bow
1. ensure arrows are stiff enough and straight, broadheads spin true, and fletching adds spin to the arrow
2. ensure string is in good shape
3. get bow into spec: ATA, cam timing, limb poundage, cam lean
4. set-up rest so that arrow is even with burger button, centered on string/cams (11/16" from riser to center of arrow on Mathews)
5. for single-cam bow, set-up nock point so nock is 1/8" to 3/16" high
6. shoot a bare shaft through paper until you get perfect bullet hole. Adjust cam lean until left/right tears are gone. For nock-left tear, add twists to right yolk. For nock-right tears, add twists to left yolk. Adjust rest up or down for nock-high or low tears. Principle is to move the arrow point to be in front of the arrow nock by adjusting the rest.
7. set top sight pin to top of sight guard. adjust sight gang so top pin is on at 20 yards with field points
8. On a windless day, broadhead tune at 20 yards, make micro adjustments to rest to move broadheads to field points, adjusting sight pin gang as necessary
9. broadhead tune from 30, 40, 50, 60, ... 100, set appropriate sight pin as necessary. I like Muzzy 3 blade for tuning because 1) they have practice blades that are easy to remove from target and 2) if they fly good, so do most other fixed heads.
November 4th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Agreed with everything stated..
i do have a goofy one thought, i super tuned my diamond nitrous, but to get broadheads and field points to fly together i have to have a tiny high tear through paper..
November 4th, 2009, 12:11 PM
I've read that persistent high-tears on single cam bows may be due to an overly stiff spine. I've not yet had any problem with arrow spine being too stiff. However, I have run into problems with spine being too weak.
Originally Posted by bowhuntermitch
Although I'm an avid reader/researcher, I've learned much of this the hard way - shooting hours and hours, day after day at the range, in my garage, etc until my arms can't take it any more.
Another common misconception is to use side-to-side arrow rest adjustments too early before you get the cam lean correct. You can get decent arrow flight by doing that, but I got better results by starting with eveything in line, then getting cam lean right, then making micro adjustments to the rest only during broadhead tuning.
Edit: I used the term "cam lean," but it is more correctly "idler wheel lean" as the yolk attaches on either side of the idler wheel. I'm not sure how I came to call it cam lean.
November 4th, 2009, 12:16 PM
First, great write up. Thanks for taking the time to share that
But that just looks like run of the mill tuning to me
November 4th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Posting to bookmark this. I may be adding an inexpensive single cam bow to my stable.
November 4th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Nice job, but I do have one question. Are you talking about Cam lean or Idler lean. The cam on a Mathews bow should always be very close to parallel with the string. The Idler wheel on the other hand should always be close to straight up and down at full draw, and at rest have some lean.
November 4th, 2009, 12:27 PM
Yes, it is idler wheel lean. I've always heard it called cam lean, but I should have called it idler wheel lean. The yolk attaches on either side of the idler wheel, so that is what we are adjusting.
Originally Posted by crackedup
I have never seen a tuning guide that start with idler wheel lean adjustment to get bullet holes. They usually start with adjusting your arrow rest.
Also, if you get it to shoot bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft, you can put on a mechanical or a lower profile fixed head and it will probably group field points and broadheads pretty well - at least under 50 yards.
November 4th, 2009, 04:13 PM
November 4th, 2009, 04:31 PM
This might be common knowledge but I didnt know any of it so I appreciate the write up. Thanks. I will be printing this and adding to my Archery 3 ring binder.
Bear Truth 30" 75#, Muzzy 100 grain 3 Blade, Gold Tip 7595 with Gator Wraps and Orange and Blue Blazers
If your not a Gator, You are Gator Bait...
November 4th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Great post Ray. I see way too many people start tweaking their rest before making sure the bow is spec'd out and the string is tracking true.String track is the cause of 90% of the tuning problems, imo.
"When they come for my guns, I will pry their guns from their cold dead fingers."
November 4th, 2009, 06:19 PM
November 4th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by krieger
Yes, and things get pretty strange when you try to patch an idler wheel lean problem by shifting the rest.
I often hear of guys who say they just can't get a bullet hole and I'm pretty sure it is due to either 1) idler wheel lean or 2) spine problem. You rarely hear about how to adjust your idler wheel properly.
November 4th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Actually, I always align the string, cam, wheel and arrow so they are all in allignment. I do it by eyballing down those various points. It ends up being 11/16" on both of my current type of bows (Mathews LX and Mathews Conquest). If it came out at 13/16", then that is where I would start. Remember, this is just the starting point, but you will use it to get your idler wheel lean correct and your rest height correct. I don't adjust the rest side to side until after I get bullet holes with bare shaft, then start doing broadhead tuning. And if you get bullet holes with bare shaft, when you go to broadhead tuning, you will not have to make much rest adjustment at all - usually less than a 32nd of an inch in any one direction. In your case, I would start with what the manufacturer recommends for you to start at 13/16" unless you want to eyeball it like I do.
I am just starting to play around with tuning my mathews bow and my wife's mathews bow. I was just wondering about one measurement you gave in #4 (11/16" from riser to center of arrow on Mathews). In the mathews manual it says to start at 13/16" from the riser to center of the arrow.
Single cam bows have vertical string travel due to the cam, but this only happens from below where the cam is. Dual cam bows both travel so the nock does not move up and down during the release, so I would expect that you start the nock point level for dual cam bows. It does not hurt to start where they recommend because you are going to change it after shooting your bow and only to improve the flight of your arrow and broadheads.
Also, I have read several places about setting the nock up to 1/2" above the 90 degree point to start out. Why do you do this and not set it perpendicular initially?
Have fun! It is fun and rewarding to do your own equipment and to be self-sufficient. And if you have any questions, I'm always happy to help.
November 4th, 2009, 06:29 PM
However, If i set my rest at 11/16ths on my SBXt, and idler wheel tuned, i bet the string would fall off before I got a bullethole.
November 4th, 2009, 06:39 PM
November 4th, 2009, 06:43 PM
SBXT must be one of the 13/16" models. Like I said, I prefer to eyeball it so the string, cam, idler wheel, and nocked arrow are all in line. That should work in any case. Any specific measurement is likely to be right for some models of bows.
Originally Posted by HammyAbeer
November 4th, 2009, 06:44 PM
My new LX string and cable arrived today from H&M. I'm gonna go put them on right now!
November 4th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Interesting read. I shoot custom strings on most of my Mathews bows and have my string guy make a floating yoke. I really haven't had any issues with idler lean, though I do typically look for it.
I have had great results just "bench tuning", starting with the d loop at dead level (and thru the center of the berger button hole) and centershot set with a guage......9 times out of ten I can just go out and walk back tune right off the bat, generally with broadheads. I have never worried about my broadheads and FP's hitting the same place. But by walk back tuning the fixed blade broadhead first, the FP's and expandables generally follow and shoot in the same hole all the way out.
I've had great luck going with a fairly stiff arrow. In fact, I have yet to have a problem with "too stiff" since I started shooting carbon about 10 years ago. I have however gotten burned "too weak", especially with Gold Tip arrows. Great arrows, but their spine charts were always on the weak side IMO.
Gotta love the single cams, though....Even a rookie can get them shooting good, and if you spend the time Ray does, you can have a true tack driver.
Thanks for a good thread.
Technical Training: Replaces Cocksure ignorance with thoughtful uncertainty.
The only thing worse than packing meat is not packing meat. Dwight Schuh
November 4th, 2009, 08:41 PM
November 5th, 2009, 09:04 AM
Wow! I have not tried setting the cam forward or backward from recommended timing. I always set the cam timing as part of the "get the bow in spec" part and assumed it would behave best where it was designed to.
Originally Posted by Lonestar63
That is interesting your Drenalin works best slightly under rotated.
November 5th, 2009, 09:08 AM
Last night, I put my new H&M string on my LX. I set it to spec, then set the rest where I explained above, then I never moved it. I only adjusted idler wheel lean (via twisting the yolks) and nocking point (by removing and reattaching the D-loop. Now it shoots perfect bullet holes. Tomorrow, I'll head to the range and do broadhead tuning.
I always set the initial idler-wheel-lean so when I place an arrow on the shelf side of the idler wheel, the arrow is perfectly parallel to the string. That is usually pretty close to right. I had to add a few twists to the left (the side without the shelf).
November 5th, 2009, 09:20 AM
How do you determine idler lean? Just by looking at the idler while the bow is undrawn, while you draw it, on a draw board, or while someone else draws it?
November 5th, 2009, 09:22 AM
I've seen these floating yolk on other bows and wondered if they would be better or worse. 1) you don't have to adjust lean, but 2) you can't adjust it if you need to. I would expect that, as long as your limbs are consistent in strength and not twisted, the floating yolk would be better.
Originally Posted by manybows
My experience is consistent with yours except that I invest the time to get bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft to ensure I'm super close before I start shooting broadheads. If I get it shooting bullet holes with bare shafts at my shop, it is usually good enough to shoot broadheads and fielld points together for most hunting situations. However, I like all my bows to be tack drivers (like you said), so I do the minior tuning of the arrow rest to get Muzzy's and field points together out to 100 yards.
Originally Posted by manybows
I started on this quest when my buddy bought a brand new Mathews Switchback (four years ago) which was set-up by a pro hunter who has his own shop. It would not shoot broadheads with field points no matter how we adjusted the arrow rest. I suspected the broadhead, the arrows, (and tried all variety of alternatives), but nothing fixed that problem. He took it back to the pro shop-owner twice, but he could not get it done correctly. Finally, I read about setting idler wheel lean and tried it. Adding twists to the right yolk reduced the left tear, so I kept doing it until I got bullet holes. Then the problem was fixed and I was able to make his bow a tack driver too.
Amen! My experience is exactly the same! I just bought a dozen Victory 350s that were correct for my bow by the spine chart, but there is no chance they will fly right out of my bow. I really need the 300s. I've always been able to shoot the stiffest arrows made with no problem.
Originally Posted by manybows
Great point! They really are simple and easy. While I was trying to figure them out, I kept telling myself, "this isn't rocket science, it is just a bow and arrow."
Originally Posted by manybows
So, Manybows, have you tuned dual cam or cam and a half bows? How are they different than single cam?
November 5th, 2009, 09:22 AM
Same with my switchback.. I just tried the parallel rule of thumb (again) and it put it all out of whack
Originally Posted by Ray.Klefstad
November 5th, 2009, 09:31 AM
The main point of this thread is it can only be set correctly by achieving bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft.
Originally Posted by hoggin03
Cam timing and ATA can be set properly by static setup and measurements.
You can eyeball the setup for initial rest windage (arrow, string, cam, and idler wheel all in alignment) and elevation (arrow even with the burger button).
You can set the initial idler wheel lean setting by placing a straight edge (like an arrow) against the shelf side of your idler wheel, then seeing how well it parallels the string. I look at the point near the nocking point. I start with the arrow pretty much parallel to the string, then do dynamic adjustments from there.
But then comes the shooting a bare shaft through paper and twisting yolk to remove nock-right or nock-left tears. You can raise or lower the nocking point to remove nock-high or nock-low tears.
By tyson5 in forum General Archery Discussion
Last Post: February 11th, 2009, 07:56 PM
By codeman2379 in forum Bow Tuning
Last Post: April 12th, 2008, 05:16 AM
By bigbuck270 in forum General Archery Discussion
Last Post: May 15th, 2007, 03:41 PM
By blakeman in forum General Archery Discussion
Last Post: December 13th, 2006, 01:44 PM
By 12Cedars in forum General Archery Discussion
Last Post: August 31st, 2005, 06:57 PM