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Thread: The Foundation Fall Mix

  1. #101
    [QUOTE=DeathBringer;1061471656]That afternoon I took my girlfriend back to the plot to watch deer.......and proposed to herQUOTE]



    Wow, love this thread for all the great info and just decided to take a peek back at it and saw this gem! Congrats!!


  2. #102
    Wow, this is really interesting thread. First thanks for all of the information.
    My buddy and I lease property 1 1/2 hour drive from our homes. During the off season, we don't get down there very often and we do not have access to a lot of equipment (bush hog or other mower), etc. We borrowed a sprayer, the farmer we lease from is going to disc up the ground for us....and we can borrow a broadcast spreader....
    Which leads to my questions...It seems from reading this thread that the Foundation mix is the perfect mix if you can keep the plot mowed in the spring. Otherwise it sounds like the rye will overtake the plot and shade out the clover?
    I'm just wondering how to adjust the mix to -A- make it as affordable as possible and -B- make it as maintanence free as possible.

    We have two acres of ground that we want to put in food plots...after paying to lease the ground and a place to stay while hunting, we don't have a whole lot of $ for the seed. I know you have to pay to play, just wondering what the most bang for the buck is.
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  3. #103

    One more question

    One thing that caught my eye as I was reading all of the posts was the post about planting buckwheat in May, discing it under in July, letting it grow again mid August, cutting it and then dove hunting over it before discing it up again and starting the whole process all over again.

    If you planted winter wheat in the fall instead of rye would the wheat stay up long enough to just mow the wheat in mid August and then do the same thing? I know winter wheat usually matures in late May or June....
    Or, could you plant spring wheat in may instead of buckwheat and just let it go until August? Just trying to figure out how to avoid having to disc so many times...We have to ask the farmer to disc for us....we can only go to the well so many times.
    I LOVE the idea of having a plot that you could use to dove hunt over. I love to dove hunt but currently don't have anywhere but public ground to hunt on.
    Thanks
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  4. #104
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Central MN
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    983
    Quote Originally Posted by IL-Gutpile View Post
    I'm just wondering how to adjust the mix to -A- make it as affordable as possible and -B- make it as maintanence free as possible.
    Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
    Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
    Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
    Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
    Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

    So, if I plant
    80 # rye = ~$24
    80 # oats = ~ $24
    50 # AWP = ~$40
    10 # Red Clover = ~$35
    5 # Forage Radish = ~$15-20(? on shipping and handling)

    So if was going to make this cheaper I would start by leaving out the Peas completely. Then I would subsitute #5 of Radishs for some cheap version of rape that you can pick up locally. Buying from Welters is really handy but more expensive than need be if you can buy it locally to avoid extra handling and shipping charging. That will save you $50 right off the bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by IL-Gutpile View Post
    I LOVE the idea of having a plot that you could use to dove hunt over. I love to dove hunt but currently don't have anywhere but public ground to hunt on.
    Now for the idea of dove hunting over a plot that is also dual purpose, I would do the above for cost savings but I would swap the clover for the peas. Plant your mix in the fall and just leave it sit all the next summer. The Rye/Oats will over mature by next year's dove season and perfect for dove hunting. I dont know for sure when you dove season opens but Im guessing you can get a few weeks of dove hunting before discing it under for to reseed itself.

  5. #105
    Couple more questions:
    I found a mix from a seed company locally that has:
    30% Oats, 25% Rye, 25% Winter Wheat, 15% Winter Peas, and 5% mix of turnips and rape. They recommend seeding at 100# per acre.
    If I do the math on the foundation mixture I'm coming up with about:
    46% Oats (80#), 29% Rye (50#), 14% Peas (25#), 6% Clover (10#), and 3% Radishes (5#) give or take.

    I think what I might do is by the mix that I mentioned above $30 for 50#, and then supplement in 10# of clover per 100# bag.
    Questions:
    Are there any negative effects of of putting some winter wheat into the mix? I wouldn't think shading would be an issue?
    This seed company recommends 100# per acre of this seed blend. The foundation plants at almost double that. Should I be concerned about only planting 100# per acre?
    So, if I have rye, oats and wheat and I let those go in the summer, they will stay standing all summer until I mow them in August? That would be great for dove hunting.
    Plan would be to mow in mid to late August, dove hunt Sept 1-3, disc under and start all over. Will I need to spray after I mow the wheat rye and oats under?
    Thanks
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  6. #106
    IL Gutpile,

    First, If you want to cheapen the Foundation Mix then drop the Oats first. This would leave you with Rye/Peas/Radish/Clover. If I dropped something else it would be either radish or peas. On my place it would probably be peas before radish because they hammered the radishes, but they still made nice big holes in the ground and added a ton of organic matter this spring--(you could smell the radishes rotting from a long way).

    A pretty effective plot is simply Rye/Red Clover. Effective, but without the added benefits the rest of the mix gives you.

    Rye shading clover-- in my two plots this year I tried to kill the rye in one and let it grow in another. The plot with MORE rye is now doing better than the plot with LESS rye.

    Dove hunting-- in all honesty I would plant a seperate dove plot in the spring of brown top millet and / or sunflowers. You CAN let the rye mature and stand until time to dove hunt, then bushhog it, but it'll probably lay down from wind long before. And the clover will need to be mowed before that.

    The mix you listed should work fine depending on what kind of brassicas. Turnips and Rape have large crowns and can shade the plot. Dwarf essex rape and radishes do not have large crowns, and deer eat the tops much sooner IME than they do turnips.

    100 lbs per acre is pretty close to what I will do this year in one plot. This year I will plant only Rye/Radish/Clover in one plot to see how the cheaper version does, and I'll probably plant at a rate of:

    2 bushels rye / acre (56 lbs / bushel = 112 lbs)
    5 lbs radish / acre
    10 lbs red clover per acre

  7. #107
    August 4 Update:

    Not a great day. I had to go home to have my dog put to sleep. He's been a faithful friend for 14 years. I buried him about 30 yards from my stand in the plot with a view. This fall I'll plant a pear tree over him. I'll miss Taz.


    This is what happens when you wait too long to mow the clover, and then mow it too close.





    We got rain last night, so the clover will be back. And all the rye and now clover mulch on the field will be great for moisture retention. It's amazing how bad it can look now and how good it can look in another month.

  8. #108
    My best trail cam picture EVER....

    was taken 7/28/11 on a homebrew P41 set over a salt lick on the edge of a Foundation Plot

    POSSUM Vs. BOBKITTY



    Cropped



    I wonder who won that argument? It likely depends on what kind of mood the Cat was in.

    This could be the same kitty I saw in this old thread:

    Bobcat Sequence

  9. #109
    Very cool pictures deathbringer! and Thanks for the information. I really appreciate your input. What is your thought on the wheat in the premade mix that I mentioned?
    I am headed out today to go pick up a mix that has 30% Oats, 25% Rye, 25% Winter Wheat, 15% Winter Peas, and 5% mix of turnips and rape. Each 50# bag is $30, so $60 for 100#. I thought that was pretty reasonable based on prices I've seen listed above, but I wasn't sure about the wheat in the mix. I will also supplement with ~ 10# of a clover mix.
    One other question: Everyone says that winter peas are unbelievable and that deer eat them like candy, but then it seems like almost everyone says that the first thing they would drop from the foundation mix is the peas. Is that because the deer hammer them so fast that they just don't make it? I'm a little concerned about that....each one of my food plots is secluded and only ~ 1/2 acre. But, when the food plots get started, there will be an abundance of food around and close by. Soybean fields will still be in and green, corn still in, acorns starting to fall....so I'm hoping the deer will hit some of the other food sources until the other food sources start to dry up in later October....we'll see.
    Oh, and sorry to hear about your dog. Been through that many times. Never gets easier.
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
    TR Revolution Rest, Easton A/C/C, ShortNSweet Release
    100 grn Grim Reaper Whitetail Special, 4 Blade Buzzcut Stinger, Tree Limb Pro Quiver

  10. #110
    IL Gutpile,

    The wheat will be fine in that mix. I like rye best, oats and rye next, and then wheat as afar as grain crops go, but it won't detract anything.

    The reasons I would drop peas from the mix first when trying to get it cheaper:
    - Peas are around $1 / lb -- I plant 4 acres @ 25 lbs per acre, so this saves me $100
    - Radishes really performed for me last year. The deer ate the tops early and often, and the radishes made holes in my plot and put a lot of organic matter into the soil. So b/t radish and pea on my place I would choose radish. This will likely change for different folks in different places.
    - You can't drop Rye and Clover from the mix--that's the backbone.

  11. #111
    Another question.
    I understand that if you have the Foundation mix going for a few years that the mowed rye and oats add organic material back to the soil as well as the radishes, etc.
    My question is: If you're starting the Foundation mix (or variation of) for the first time, what is the best way to fertilize? I posted a similar question in the "regular" foodplot section, but then I thought I should really seek out Mr Deathbringer's opinion on this.
    I bought a mix of seed from my local Seed store/COOP. When I bought the extra 10 pounds of clover, the owner said "Now you know not to add nitrogen to clover plots, right?" I explained that I was going to add the clover to the mix and plant it all together.
    He looked at me like I was a dumb city boy (or at least that's how I would imagine him looking at a dumb city boy).
    He kind of said I was waisting my money and that a clover plot would be great all by itself.
    Never-the-less, he got me thinking....How DO I apply fertilizer for the first year? I know some of the plants in the mix (turnips for example) LOVE nitrogen. Do I make the turnips and other plants happy and add nitrogen and rely on them to deplete nitrogen so that the clover becomes happy? Do I add a 12-12-12 or 19-19-19 and hope that all of the plants are kind of happy? Or do I skew the fertilizer to make some plants happy and know that the other plants will be OK?
    Soil tests are pending. I'm assuming I will have to add lime and if there are any obvious deficiencies, I will fertilize appropriately, but if I'm looking to "optimize" what is your advice?
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
    TR Revolution Rest, Easton A/C/C, ShortNSweet Release
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  12. #112
    Established clover doesn't need Nitrogen, as it fixes nitrogen from the air. Nitrogen can help young clover though, and it can still grow in Nitrogen rich soils, so adding Nitrogen to your plot will not hurt the clover, and it will likely help the rest of the mix. If you need to fertilize, then I would fertilize based on what plants make up the majority of your plot (likely cereal grains).

    The guy at Co-op doesn't understand that this mix gives you a great fall hunting plot AND a better way to establish a clover plot.

  13. #113
    Hello food plotters just a few questions about fall foundation mix......
    I have .45 ac what would be planting rates?
    Would you leave anything out? Add anything?
    This a new plot in a funnel area very small but deer travel heavy sept thru jan any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks
    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." -Mike Tyson

    “It don't stop 'til the casket drop.” -Tupac Shakur

    "SHAKE IT UUUUUUUP!" -Scott Ferrall

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by hurricanepepper View Post
    Hello food plotters just a few questions about fall foundation mix......
    I have .45 ac what would be planting rates?
    Would you leave anything out? Add anything?
    This a new plot in a funnel area very small but deer travel heavy sept thru jan any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks
    Winter Rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
    Spring Oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
    Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
    Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
    Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
    The mix works well together. Bare bones would be rye and clover.

    Is your spot heavily shaded?

  15. #115
    good sun i think but i will just cut all in half but oats and rye
    "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." -Mike Tyson

    “It don't stop 'til the casket drop.” -Tupac Shakur

    "SHAKE IT UUUUUUUP!" -Scott Ferrall

  16. #116
    I wouldn't skimp on the rye and clover. Everything else can be cut down.

  17. #117
    This morning I called 5 different Farmers Co-op's and priced my seed. I'll be picking it up at a store on the way to the farm (3.5 hour trip). Here's how it should break out:

    Rye - 15.95 / bushel
    Red Clover - 2.06 / lb
    AWP - 37 / 50 lb bag

    Rye is up from last year. I could get the clover for 1.75/lb at another store, but would have to drive an extra hour.

    I ordered Groundhog Forage Radish from Welters a couple weeks ago and it came within a few days, so after I get the rest of the seed this weekend I should be set.

    I hope to plant on labor day weekend again, weather permitting. We've been DRY so I'd like to see some rain between now and then to speed the disking up.

  18. #118
    Got 3 food plots out this weekend. Man is the ground dry here in southern IL.
    We sprayed with glyphosphate 3 weekends ago. Farmer we lease from disked up ground a couple days before we came down. Ground worked up really nice. First time either of these area has been planted with anything for YEARS.
    I put down 50# of 46-0-0 and 50# of 6-24-24 on the two half acre plots and then about 10 pounds of 6-24-24 on the small plot in the woods.
    Raked that in good with a OLD pull behind harrow/rake. Then put out 50# of a mix containing 30% Oats, 25% Rye, 25% Winter Wheat, 15% Winter Peas, and 5% mix of turnips and rape. I raked the whole time we broadcasted seed.
    Finally, we put 5# down of a ladino clover/red clover mix at the end and pretty much left it on top.
    The two 5 acre plots get about 80% of full sun. The 0.1 (if that) is just a strip in the woods next to an access road that had a decent clearning. Not sure how much sun it gets....we just put that in clover and the left over fall mix that we had.
    I will take pictures next time we go down.
    Question: How long can that seed sit there in dry dirt before it starts to go bad? There is no moisture in the soil now. Can someone show me the rain dance? : )
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  19. #119
    Planting Day 2011:

    I was challenged with my planting schedule this year. I wanted to plant over Labor Day weekend, but the 10 day forecast was calling for rain Sunday and Monday, and I had to work on Saturday.

    So I disked one plot the weekend before and coerced my Dad into disking the other two. At that point we'd had a half inch of rain in about 6 weeks with temps in the high 90's each day. The clover was in full dormancy.



    These plots have been worked at least once a year for several years now so the disking went quickly. One pass got some of it and two passes got the tougher spots.





    Because I had to work Saturday I took a vacation day Friday. I drove over Thursday night (3.5 hour drive), got up early Friday, and started planting.



    I spread rye and peas on one plot and straight rye on the other two. Then I cultipacked.



    After I cultipacked I spread clover and radish with an ATV spreader we have that does a better job with small seed than the 500 lb PTO spreader. I did not cultipack the clover and radish because it was powder dry and I was afraid it would set the seed too deep.

    It started raining Sunday and rained until Tuesday. A slow steady rain totalling 4.5 inches. Dad says the plots are already germinating!

    Man, September 24th can't get here soon enough!

  20. #120
    Cool....glad someone is getting rain. We planted 10 days ago....not a drop of rain since. Chance of rain again tomorrow and Friday....praying it will hit us this time.
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  21. #121
    IL,

    Your seed should be fine. It will sit in dry ground for a good while waiting on rain. What I worry about is getting enough to germinate the plot, and then going into a severe drought. That happened to me last year (pics earlier in this thread) and this mix still came through it.

  22. #122
    Update 9/23/11:

    We've had over 6 inches of rain since planting, and the plots are already pushing 6 inches tall. It's amazing to see the difference between this year and the year before.



    I dind't re-plant the area around my orchard, intending to allow it to be clover for the near future. The red clover is just starting to come out of summer dormancy.



    The deer are loving the rye, peas, clover, and radish combo in this plot. I snuck in the evening before the archery opener to snap a few pics.




    The wind was wrong to hunt the plots on opening day, so it was the next morning before I could sit that stand. I saw 11 deer including 2 small bucks and several does and fawns.



    At about 8:32 I found this in the plot.





    Which led 40 yards to this sight.



    She only made it about 4 yards into the edge of the woods.



    I ran out of venison last week and was very glad to take this doe. In the next few weeks I'll try to take my first with trad gear.

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Madison AL
    Posts
    57
    Nice job...you had me thinking someone was poaching on you!!! Are you close to the Fayetteville TN area? I ask, because I am hunting that area of Southern TN and the countryside looks very similar. I had already planted my plots when I rolled across this thread, but depending on how my clover stand does this season, I may try the foundation plot starting in the spring.

  24. #124
    Congrats on the doe!!

    Question for you...I have two 1/2 plots with the mix I described above (Oats, Rye, Wheat, Winter Peas, Turnips and Rape and then clover on top). Those two food plots look awesome and the warm weather this week should also help out.

    The farmer we lease from already shelled corn on the other side of the property. We were hoping that would stay in until end of October....We were thinking about using a harrow to break up the top couple inches of dirt on about 1/2 acre of the cut corn just to provide a food source from now through late spring....maybe hunt over it late season.
    Do you think its too late here in Southern IL to plant the mix minus the clover? I know the rye and wheat would probably be OK, but not sure about winter peas, turnips and rape. I'm pretty sure the oats would be knocked down by the first freeze which will probably be in the next 3 weeks. What do you think?
    04 Razortec, 27" Draw 67# , Trophy Ridge Alpha V3 Sight,
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  25. #125
    Spartacus,

    I'm about 85 miles from Fayetteville, but the terrain is similar.

    IL,

    I'd plant rye over the corn for a sure bet. If you want to mix in a brassica, Radishes would probably do well. I'd go with them over turnips and rape because they get out of the ground really fast and deer graze them as soon as they start growing. I think it's getting late in the growing season for any brassica though.

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