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Thread: Witch arrows will penetrate better

  1. #1
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    Witch arrows will penetrate better

    I was wondering witch arrows will penetrate better. A carbon arrow with a heavy brass insert and a 160 grain broadhead and arrow wrap 3 feathers and nock. Or a aluminum arrow with a regular aluminum insert and a 150 grain broadhead wrap 3 feathers and nock. They would both weigh about the same but one the weight would be evenly distributed the other would have and extremely high foc. So witch would penetrate better?

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  2. #2
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    Depends on the diameter of the aluminum shaft. Carbons have the smaller shaft diameter going for them. A better comparison would be to shoot hem both through a chrony and calculate the Momentum/KE. I like the 10 grain per inch CE shafts for hunting.

  3. #3
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    assuming that all other variables are identical (weight, speed, shaft diameter and tune in terms of a straight flying arrow) and the only difference is the composition of the shaft and the degree of FOC, the higher FOC arrow will win. By how much is the question.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by rogbo View Post
    assuming that all other variables are identical (weight, speed, shaft diameter and tune in terms of a straight flying arrow) and the only difference is the composition of the shaft and the degree of FOC, the higher FOC arrow will win. By how much is the question.
    I agree! But I have also heard that carbon arrows can recover quicker upon impact because of what and how they are made.

    Ray

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    Witch arrows will penetrate better
    The ones with the correct and sharp heads.

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    the ones that resemble a broom, I guess

    It's WHICH - a witch is an evil old green lady like in the Wizard of Oz

  7. #7
    Perhaps arrows with a spell on them work better ??!

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    geez you cant even post a thread without the haters coming its not like i take my time and spell out every word and tzi i checked out the CE website and it said the arrows were spined perfectly for small game hunting so are they ok for deer hunting they look like they would be fine i was just wondering if you have deer hunted with them thanks
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    Muzzyman, if the arrows in question are flying straight and your broadhead is sharp it'l do the job. You'l be fine. Example : A Carbon Express 90 cut to 29 inches out of my 45 lb. recurve [28 inch draw], with a 175 grain setup at the point end will blow through a deer. Example : 2016 or 1916 [same length arrow and bow poundage] with a 125 grain point setup will do the same.
    My opinion, you dont have to have 11 or 12 grains per pound to do the job, ...if your arrows are flying straight and you're broadhead is sharp....you're good to go. The average deer is not that hard to penetrate providing you have good shot placement also.
    If you have a HEAVY arrow but it's not flying straight and you're broadhead is not sharp , the heavy arrow is no advantage to you.

  10. #10
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    Smaller diameter, more penetration.

    However, just because small game or practice points are working well doesn't necessarily mean that broadheads will too. Make sure you give your broadheads a thorough shooting before you take them big game hunting.

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    yeah I don't have broadheads yet but I will be ordering some soon i was thinking stos 130grain with an adapter but i don't know WHICH adapters to get steel or aluminum is the reason people get steel because there stronger or is there something else i think i will go with gold tip traditional's cut to 29 inches my bow is a 45# mamba so do you think the 35-55's will be fine because i will put 75 grain brass inserts in them so they will have a lot of weight up front and thanks curve and kegan
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  12. #12
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    I use steel adapters to get enough weight to make the stiffer spine arrows I use to tune properly from my bow. More weight up front, the weaker the arrow will act, conversly (sp?), less weight means the arrow acts stiffer.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzyman1212 View Post
    yeah I don't have broadheads yet but I will be ordering some soon i was thinking stos 130grain with an adapter but i don't know WHICH adapters to get steel or aluminum is the reason people get steel because there stronger or is there something else i think i will go with gold tip traditional's cut to 29 inches my bow is a 45# mamba so do you think the 35-55's will be fine because i will put 75 grain brass inserts in them so they will have a lot of weight up front and thanks curve and kegan
    No need for 'stronger' insert.If it hits something solid it will just bust the arrow anyway. I have quite a few to prove it.

    Try this. Go with 35-55 if that's what you like. I would start by leaving them full length and standard insert. Tune bareshaft with different point weights untill you get it right.If they are weak then cut down a little. THEN buy the broadheads of your choice,based upon the weight of the fieldpoint that tuned correctly, and broadhead tune.

    But,FIRST, go to bowmaker .net and get educated.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by muzzyman1212 View Post
    I was wondering witch arrows will penetrate better. A carbon arrow with a heavy brass insert and a 160 grain broadhead and arrow wrap 3 feathers and nock. Or a aluminum arrow with a regular aluminum insert and a 150 grain broadhead wrap 3 feathers and nock. They would both weigh about the same but one the weight would be evenly distributed the other would have and extremely high foc. So witch would penetrate better?
    Which would penetrate better is science. Lyman has done very extensive testing on bullets and penetration, and the results were a huge surprise to me, for what worked for penetration in bullets was big (diameter) and heavy. This surprised me becuase you'd think that a skinny heavy bullet would penetrate better, and up to certain velocities anyway, the larger diameter aided penetration.

    Heavy arrows will out penetrate a lighter arrow, and even with arrows of equal momentum at the string, the heavy arrow will carry that momentum further than a faster lighter one.

    What probably matters more than penetration is shot placement and to a certain degree, sharp broadheads.

    As an aside, momentum determines penetration. KE by necessity includes momentum by virtue that anything moving has momentum, KE is just skewed by math that measures a value of energy created by formula and favors speed. Momentum is of course directly measured by speed, but it is a linear measurement.

    I use wood arrows and though my broadheads have always made it through every animal I've shot, the arrows have yet to, except in several very limited circumstances go completely through.

    Skinnyer arrows going faster many times go all the way through animals all the time which points out that we probably are shooting much more than is necessary to kill humanely.

    Aloha....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattus58 View Post
    Which would penetrate better is science. Lyman has done very extensive testing on bullets and penetration, and the results were a huge surprise to me, for what worked for penetration in bullets was big (diameter) and heavy. This surprised me becuase you'd think that a skinny heavy bullet would penetrate better, and up to certain velocities anyway, the larger diameter aided penetration.

    Heavy arrows will out penetrate a lighter arrow, and even with arrows of equal momentum at the string, the heavy arrow will carry that momentum further than a faster lighter one.

    What probably matters more than penetration is shot placement and to a certain degree, sharp broadheads.

    As an aside, momentum determines penetration. KE by necessity includes momentum by virtue that anything moving has momentum, KE is just skewed by math that measures a value of energy created by formula and favors speed. Momentum is of course directly measured by speed, but it is a linear measurement.

    I use wood arrows and though my broadheads have always made it through every animal I've shot, the arrows have yet to, except in several very limited circumstances go completely through.

    Skinnyer arrows going faster many times go all the way through animals all the time which points out that we probably are shooting much more than is necessary to kill humanely.

    Aloha....
    Dr. Ashby found skinny, heavy arrows penetrate MUCH better than large diametrer heavy arrows. Even my own shooting has shown small diameters show a bigger improvement on big diameter. Unless the bigger diameter is also a good bit heavier of course, then it still penetrates better.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kegan View Post
    Dr. Ashby found skinny, heavy arrows penetrate MUCH better than large diametrer heavy arrows. Even my own shooting has shown small diameters show a bigger improvement on big diameter. Unless the bigger diameter is also a good bit heavier of course, then it still penetrates better.
    I've read most of Ashby's internet published stuff but have to admit that I've not seen any reports by him comparing equal weight different diameter arrows. If you know where I could find that, I'd be very grateful.

    My wood arrows far outpenetrate my used to be 2219's. The issue I have is that my wood arrows push the broadhead all the way through, on occasion it has gone virtually lengthwise and through bone. The only thing my wood arrows do that perplex me is that they usually don't exit. This fact hasn't stopped bleeding in any measurable way and may in fact aid it in some ways, but since they don't exit I have nothing to really compare.

    Much Aloha....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattus58 View Post
    As an aside, momentum determines penetration. KE by necessity includes momentum by virtue that anything moving has momentum, KE is just skewed by math that measures a value of energy created by formula and favors speed. Momentum is of course directly measured by speed, but it is a linear measurement.
    You know, your explanation is not unlike the confusion caused in the measurement of output of combustible engines when thinking between horsepower and torque. Skewed in our thinking, is the comparisons of "rate" of work and "amount" of work with extremes of speed or mass in the math - on comparisons. Horsepower has an "amount" factor and a "rate" factor in its formula, whereas (force x distance)/time, and torque is a measure of force multiplication via leverage and angle.

    Two engines of same horsepower cannot always do the same work, though. A 300hp diesel engine of high torque will easily move 80,000lbs down the highway, but a 300hp gasoline engine from a fast moving car would be lucky to get that much weight even rolling.

    Every time I try to reconcile KE and Momentum, I fall back to such an analogy problem when things are at extremes of measurement - high speed, low torque v. high torque, low speed all in the name of a single horsepower measurement.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    You know, your explanation is not unlike the confusion caused in the measurement of output of combustible engines when thinking between horsepower and torque. Skewed in our thinking, is the comparisons of "rate" of work and "amount" of work with extremes of speed or mass in the math - on comparisons. Horsepower has an "amount" factor and a "rate" factor in its formula, whereas (force x distance)/time, and torque is a measure of force multiplication via leverage and angle.

    Two engines of same horsepower cannot always do the same work, though. A 300hp diesel engine of high torque will easily move 80,000lbs down the highway, but a 300hp gasoline engine from a fast moving car would be lucky to get that much weight even rolling.

    Every time I try to reconcile KE and Momentum, I fall back to such an analogy problem when things are at extremes of measurement - high speed, low torque v. high torque, low speed all in the name of a single horsepower measurement.
    This is why I stick to momentum. It is what is relevant to penetration, which is all I'm concerned with. I'm not shooting at distances that require the absolute in trajectory and require only the best in accuracy of me an my bow... and I'm only good to 25 yards on coffee cans and soccer balls... softballs and tennis balls require more concentration or reduced shooting distances... so KE for me is irrelevant (other than it houses momentum...).

    Much Aloha...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kegan View Post
    Dr. Ashby found skinny, heavy arrows penetrate MUCH better than large diametrer heavy arrows. Even my own shooting has shown small diameters show a bigger improvement on big diameter. Unless the bigger diameter is also a good bit heavier of course, then it still penetrates better.
    This is all I could find on the subject. (Ashby)

    "(6) Arrow Shafts. With any given shafting material and shaft finish, the larger a shaft’s diameter the greater will be the resistance to its penetration. It will present a larger frontal area to the tissues, displace a greater volume of tissue as it penetrates, and present more total surface area to the tissues (which results in a higher drag factor).

    As a general rule, the arrow’s shaft should have a diameter that is less than the broadhead’s ferrule diameter. In testing with parallel shafts (as opposed to tapered or barrel tapered shafts), outcome data shows that when a shaft’s diameter is greater than the broadhead’s ferrule diameter the arrow’s penetration is reduced by and average of 30 percent, as compared to a situation where the shaft’s diameter equals the diameter of the broadhead’s ferrule.

    If the shaft’s diameter is less than that of the broadhead’s ferrule, the penetration increases by an average of 10 percent. That can equate to as much as a 40 percent difference in measurable penetration between two arrows which are equal in all respects except for the diameter of the shaft. This is not theory. It is what average outcome measurements from comparable shots into real tissues show. It is a graphic demonstration of the importance of shaft drag as a factor in the overall resistance force when penetrating real tissues.

    It is tempting to advise that one use as small a shaft diameter as possible, but recent testing is highly suggestive that other factors may also be at play. In the recent tests, shafts of identical materials and nearly equal mass, but of various profiles, were tested. All were tested at the same distance (20 yards), from the same bow, and with the same broadhead.

    The results were, to say the least, of interest. Averaging the results from all comparable shots, the frequency of shafts with a tapered profile out-penetrating those with either parallel or barrel tapered profile was extremely high. A definite tendency was manifest.

    Of note, the tapered shafts averaged about 50 to 70 grains less mass than either the parallel or the barrel tapered shafts. They also had a larger diameter at the point just back of the broadhead’s ferrule than either the parallel or tapered shafts, though ALL the shafts still had a diameter (just back of the broadhead) which was less than the broadhead’s ferrule diameter.

    What the tapered shafts did have was a significantly higher percentage of weight forward of center (high FOC) and a shaft profile that became steadily smaller in diameter towards the rear of the shaft - a ‘reverse inclined plane’ which, in theory, might result in a lower overall shaft drag factor. It is also a feasible hypothesis that the lower mass towards the rear of the tapered shaft arrow may cause less shaft flexion, reducing resistance."

    Aloha....

  20. #20
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    All things being the same, shaft size, total weight, shot at the same poundage, etc. Carbon arrows will out penetrate aluminum arrows only due to their ability to dampen up faster coming off the string. There are a number of slow motion pics of this.

  21. #21
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    carbon arrow all day long! its not hard to notice that the carbon that matches your bow has a stiffer spine than the aluminum arrow that matches that same bow (bare shaft tuning) so not only does the carbon recover almost immediately when it leaves the bow but upon impact it has that stiffer spine which results in the least amount of Kinetic Energy wasted when entering the hide,,, I believe Dr Ashby has some slow motion video on what an arrow does upon impact and it was pretty interesting.. I've heard of a 40# longbow shooting completely through deer with a heritage 90 arrow and that same longbow would hardly get a pass-thru with a 1916 AND I know its about what it hit and this and that but proof to me is from the real world..

    with that being said I do prefer aluminum out of 3 of my bows (wood out of 5 selfbows) and carbons out of everything else (they are quiet in the quiver and easy to tune)
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