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Thread: Bow Speeds vs Smooth Draw _What's Your Opinion? -Ted Nugent and TM Talk

  1. #1
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    Bow Speeds vs Smooth Draw _What's Your Opinion? -Ted Nugent and TM Talk

    Bows Speed vs Smooth Draw -What’s your opinion-Nugent and TM

    I have been designing compound bows since 1972 and still learn more everyday.
    As demand and material change – so do the bows
    Ted and I got a chance to talk and express our opinion in a recent meeting this month. Ted’s opinion “I can’t go in to a shop and buy the bow I want to shoot”
    Many dealers do not carry lighter weight bows.
    As most of you know the demand for speed has been the driving force behind most bows on the market today. Here is the problem. When most try a bow they are in a store at a comfortable 75 degrees on a flat floor standing in a normal position.
    Most will feel good drawing a 60 to 70 pound bow with high performance cans.
    When you are in the field it will usually anything but the perfect conditions.
    Many find themselves unable to draw the bow in cold conditions, muscles that have been still for some time and in an awkward position trying to shoot under a branch or other object. So many are not even able to draw their bows when the trophy is in front of them.
    Can you draw your bow in any conditions and positions?
    Ted feels that dealers and archers would be wise to have bows in stock that have smoother draws with less extreme drop off.
    It is true that many experienced archers, including my 87 year old father, have never hunted with a bow over 55#
    What is your opinion? Would you like the option of a smoother cam with less draw weight if the bow still maintains a good speed.
    As Ted says –He has taken every animal out there with around 50# draw bows.
    (note – the bows Ted shoots are not backed off to 50 pounds but are build to be at peak performance at those weights.
    We can build any cam –even ones that have no let off but what is really best?
    Would you like the option of a Silk smooth cam if the speed is a little less FPS?

    Note – FPS comparisons based on test done over the years by Norb Mulhany and others I have seen over the past 35 years –Yes the speeds do vary.
    Original longbows were around 160-180 FPS
    Recurves vary also from 170 to 210 FPS
    Round wheel compounds around 210- 240 FPS
    Smooth cam around 300 -310 FPS
    High performance cams 320 to 360 FPS
    (note – Lighter carbon arrows have also changed overall speed)

    Photo of Ted, Sonja and I after an hour interview for Archery Talk soon to be posted
    Attached Images Attached Images
    I started Archery History and Archery Talk to give archers a good true source of information, to have archers ask and answer questions and solve problems, and to see many of the bows and ideas from the past. It is also a way for me to give back the sport.
    Archers Helping Archers. Most important - Enjoy shooting and have fun.

  2. #2
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    I find hi-Performance cams with a limb weight of 50lbs. to be very easy to pull, even slowly over the top. To me the best of both worlds is a hi- performance cam with a limb weight the individual archer is comfortable with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Bows Speed vs Smooth Draw -What’s your opinion-Nugent and TM

    I have been designing compound bows since 1972 and still learn more everyday.
    As demand and material change – so do the bows
    Ted and I got a chance to talk and express our opinion in a recent meeting this month.
    ...very cool indeed...you meet at Uncle Teds crib...or he come up and see ya at the Walla Walla crib??...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Ted’s opinion “I can’t go in to a shop and buy the bow I want to shoot”
    Many dealers do not carry lighter weight bows.
    ...obviously Uncle Ted hasn't been into a real PRO Shop, as a PROfessioanl Archery Shop will in FACT carry lighter pound of pull models because of the very reasons you mention below...

    ...hum, maybe an opportunity for someone to start up a GOOD PRO Shop neere Theo!!...



    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    As most of you know the demand for speed has been the driving force behind most bows on the market today. Here is the problem. When most try a bow they are in a store at a comfortable 75 degrees on a flat floor standing in a normal position.
    Most will feel good drawing a 60 to 70 pound bow with high performance cans.
    When you are in the field it will usually anything but the perfect conditions.
    Many find themselves unable to draw the bow in cold conditions, muscles that have been still for some time and in an awkward position trying to shoot under a branch or other object. So many are not even able to draw their bows when the trophy is in front of them.
    ...I concur 100% with this depiction and is why any owner of a shop with any credability with bring this point of fact up to the customer...especially if the customer will be hunting with the unit and will REQUIRE them to sit in a chair and draw it, simulating drawing the bow from a sitting position in a stand or blind, so that the customer will get the "full effect" of the bows draw weight prior to the sale...

    ...Uncle Ted and I are from neere the same neck of the woods in Michigan...and as Yankees we undeerestand this concept better than most due to the temperatures during our hunting seasons...and the many times "extra" clothing we also wear...it may not be as previlent in warmer climates, but the song to a degree remains the same due to our physical makeup and somewhat diminished "power" while in a sitting position...


    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Can you draw your bow in any conditions and positions?
    ...Yes, because I purchased a "hunting bow" bow based upon these very conditions...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Ted feels that dealers and archers would be wise to have bows in stock that have smoother draws with less extreme drop off.
    ...I tend to agree as well...we always did for our customers!!...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    It is true that many experienced archers, including my 87 year old father, have never hunted with a bow over 55#
    ...this too is very true...although the bow I currently hunt with is a 60# pull and is every bit as smooth as the 50# bow it replaced...I retained the smooth draw, yet increased overall efficiency and picked up considerable speed in the process...the best of both worlds...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    What is your opinion? Would you like the option of a smoother cam with less draw weight if the bow still maintains a good speed.
    ...YES...who in their right mind wouldn't

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    As Ted says –He has taken every animal out there with around 50# draw bows.
    (note – the bows Ted shoots are not backed off to 50 pounds but are build to be at peak performance at those weights.
    ...good deal, it appears Uncle ted is using his bows properly...MAXED out for proper system efficiency...not simply "backing off" the weight so it is comfortable!!...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    We can build any cam –even ones that have no let off but what is really best?
    ...good question there ARCHERYHISTORY...I would say the "best" is what a customer, once they try it, like it better than anything they have used previously...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Would you like the option of a Silk smooth cam if the speed is a little less FPS?
    ...sure, but what do you consider "a little less"...5fps...10fps or 20fps??...

    Quote Originally Posted by archeryhistory View Post
    Note – FPS comparisons based on test done over the years by Norb Mulhany and others I have seen over the past 35 years –Yes the speeds do vary.
    Original longbows were around 160-180 FPS
    Recurves vary also from 170 to 210 FPS
    Round wheel compounds around 210- 240 FPS
    Smooth cam around 300 -310 FPS
    High performance cams 320 to 360 FPS
    (note – Lighter carbon arrows have also changed overall speed)

    Photo of Ted, SOnja and after hour interview for Archery Talk soon to be posted
    ...good stuff AH...ole Ted is a purdy fart smeller...I mean pretty smart feller ain't he!!

    ...on a side note...did he mention whether he was going back to Michigan to make a run at the Governorship...lord knows the state could use him after the democrats, liberals and progressives have laid the state to waste

  4. #4
    I think alot of guys would like a bow like that. In fact isnt that why alot of guys get these speed bows, because they have a short draw or because at 60lbs you can shoot just as fast as a 70lb bow or someone with a longer draw.
    Bear Method , Trophy Ridge,

  5. #5
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    I'm with heavy dart on this one... I have a Firecat TR2 on order right now that I plan on shooting around 57 pounds. Fast cams and light weight still equal good performance in an easy to draw package... but smooth is always a good thing!!
    15 yards to a corn pile... shooting tomorrow's trophies today

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    If my Cyborg @ 60 lbs was any easier to draw and hold I would fall asleep at full draw. What I hate to see is a desecration of the speed issue. Arrow speed is an advantage but not at the expense of a smooth draw. Luckily today we have compounds on the market that draw smoothly and are relatively fast shooting also.

    Doug
    but you brethren are not of the flesh but of the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of Christ dwells within you.....Romans 8

  7. #7
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    Light is good. Smooth is good. Light and smooth is great, in fact, excellent. Of young and old that come in for their first try at archery a super light drawing bow is thing to have on hand. Some that really know what accuracy is goes for smooth and something can be drawn easily. Regardless of what was noted above, all archery shops don't carry low draw weight bows and I doubt that a quarter of the archery shops across the country do - whether true shops or box stores.

    Just a couple hours ago I was playing with a Martin Shadowcat turned down to 52 pounds. Now, the bow holds fine at 60, fine at 57, but oh so sweet at 52. The only thing could have made it better was something other than the Cat Cam 1.5. It feels kinda like a clunk (if that's the proper word for it) when it drops off into the valley. If not for the Limb Driver rest I'd probably have the arrow bouncing off the rest when the cams break over. Other than the clunk, hump or whatever you want to call it, the bow chewed pretty good on the 5 spot bull's eye at 30 yards.

    Of course there is a draw back when asking of the above opinon. There's too many "kids" that don't have clue to what is easy and smooth to draw. Just look at the posts in here. Seems every barn burner bow is smooth and easy, even the Omen and Monster that break 360 fps. I tad bit down on fps, Hoyt lover that I've been for 11 years, my opinion of the Katera or Alphaburner would not be good PR.
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  8. #8
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    So who is responsible for all the emphasis on speed? Did we the archery public just say we want faster bows or is it the companies themselves who have caused all the "need for speed" craze? Hell we were all happy opening our car doors with a key but now we all want and expect it to be done with a push of a button. My point is marketing and advertising tells the public this is what you want and the public then replies give me more. Watch what happens with X-bows now that they are becoming more widely accepted. We are already at 411fps and I'll guess climbing.
    G-Fade Quest Primal LH 72# @ 29.25"
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  9. #9
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    Never crossed my mind to buy a bow thinking about speed. When I saw the General qualitys I decided I want it because of the smothness, zero noise and zero handshock. I didn't even care about the speed it would get.

    Of course that if someone likes a bow because of the speed it gets, there's nothing wrong with it.
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  10. #10
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    well i shoot a 2004 protec with cam 1/2 at 70 lbs its not considerd a fast bow,but i think its smooth and at a 32 inch draw my 516 grn 2514 xx78 gets 266 fps.and being a new yorker and hunting in cold weather i can shoot this bow sitting, nealing and after 4 hrs in the stand on a 30 deg day no problem.i dont say all this to brag but i am making a point that i shoot alot, so i can perform when i need to.now in 10,15 yrs i may need to shoot 50 lbs but untill then i am fine shooting at 70 lbs.ted has done more for hunting than anyone, but to say most archers should shoot less lbs is like saying i should drive a toyota hybrid instead of my 07 4by4 f150 with a 5.4...

  11. #11
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    I have no opinion. Just waiting for the interview to be posted. Thank You !!
    Stable full of Hoyt Bows... Home of the White Alpha Triad !! (Alpha Elite, AlphaBurner, Alphamax 35)
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  12. #12
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    I do agree with the original post. I did however buy a "speed" bow for the speed. I bought a 60# alphaburner to replace my old 70# bowtech. I have gotten more speed and a much easier draw. I did however lean toward the faster bows from the start despite the fact that there may be other bows that are more smooth. I am colorblind, so my goal was to get as much penetration as possible, so that I would have the best chance of a pass through and a better blood trail. I also limit my shot distance for the same reason. I definitely believe the speed bows have a market.
    2010 Hoyt Alphaburner 60# 28.5"
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  13. #13
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    I have my rig set at 55 lbs so that it is a smooth, easy to draw back motion with out all the high swing extra shoulder jerking that I see a lot of people do because they are pull/drawing to much weight. I shoot a 340 ICS Bow Hunter with 100 grn fixed blades and at 300 fps which still gives me close to 56.k fps, which is still enough to stop elk at 40 yards,I'm happy with smooth draw.

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    I like bows with a smooth draw. I gave my son my Firecat because I didn't like the hump it has at the end of draw cycle. I even turned it down to 55#s and still didn't like it. Great shooting bow though but on a real cold day getting it past that hump could be a problem. I went back to Darton bows because they have a nice smooth draw cycle. I think bow companies should try to make bows without this hump at the end of draw cycle if they can.

  15. #15
    I say it's all relative. To me drawing a 70 or 80 pound bow under the most extreme hunting conditions is not different then if I drew 50-60. Certainly as time goes on,,,,I am losing strength as I am geting in my 50's,,,so yea I can visualize shooting 60 pounds in a few years or so if I can't keep strength with my normal excercise. So to me in my book its "to each their own"....take whatever draw weight you like and shoot it,,,,but before you finalize your weight,,,,shoot alot of different weights to be certain.
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    I like and shoot many a low poundage bow. I will shoot 65lb draw weight some times as they are more common but I often purchase and love a 50lb draw weight bow. If that bow happens to be one of the modern rocket bows I can send an arrow out there faster than I could in years past with a much heavier draw weight. I think if many would actually shoot some of the modern speed bows with 50lb limbs they would be surprised at how much power they have. I can't imagine drawing 70lb versions of many of the modern bows and with draw length running long these days many guys are over bowed and long on draw length a combination that leads guys to be disappointed with the bow they just paid so much for.
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    I got my bow for speed, I wanted a fast Bow Im alright with the bump at the end as long as it gets there fast, don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with smooth bow either I have a switchback that I love also,

    I think the move to fast Bows come from the Manufactors trying to sell more bows and the only thing they could come up with was speed, they already had smooth bows for a long time so the next thing was to go faster, the only one thats not got on the speed band wagon is Hoyt, they stepped out of the box and built a avg speed bow with a carbon riser and got people to pay twice the price Now that some good marketing.
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  18. #18
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    Speed sells
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  19. #19
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    I listened to Uncle Ted last year and my deer ran off with my arrow sticking in it's shoulder. 2" made a big difference. He was seen three days later running around with my arrow sticking out. Slick Trick 100 grain broadheads on a Axis 400 arrow. I hoping to finish the hunt this year on that same deer. Shot placement is crucial with a 50 lb bow. SRM

    2008 Hoyt Vectrix Plus with 28" DL @ 60 lb, Extreme Strings and Cables, 28" .340 Gold Tip XT Hunter arrows, 100 grain DRT Broadheads, Trophy Ridge REACT Sight, FUSE Whisker Biscuit, Tranquilizer - Golden Key Archery Stabilizer, Tight Spot Arrow Quiver, & black wrist sling


  20. #20
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    Your speed chart really illustrates that bows really havent got any faster the last 20 years the short brace craze as of late as gained about 10 fps ..... Big deal not worth the unforgiving characteristic that so many seem to ignore or simply can't tell the difference.
    280 or 320 fps ...you still need to know the yardage or you will miss the mark


    I'll take smooth anyday for hunting
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  21. #21
    A "Smooth" draw is really subjective. Most of todays bows are acceptably "smooth" to draw under nearly any condition given that he or she is comfortable with whatever draw weight they have practiced with. I am under the belief that speed is Major for a hunting bow. Speed kills and those that say it isn't a big deal don't have it or can't get it. The ancient Mongols shot 160# bows for a reason, and it wasn't for the silky smooth draw cycle. They were after speed and killing power - just like us. Kinetic enery and penetration are velocity biased. If someone can easily draw 70# with a hard cam bow in any bodily position short of upside down and shoot fist sized groups to 60 yds, why wouldn't they do that vs a "smooth" 55#? Bone crushing penetration is in favor of the 70 # every time with the same arrow. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Nugent also suggests that everyone shoot a 30" arrow too? That makes no good sense to me either.

  22. #22
    I'll chime in for smooth also in the draw cycle, lighter poundage( my shoulder likes lighter poundage) and perhaps a little more valley than the "speed "bows. I have people almost every day asking to see the fastest bow we have and then admitting that they don't know anything about bows but heard that they should get the fastest one they can. Also, they need at least a 70# bow if they want to kill anything. Advertising perpetuated by those snagged by the advertising. Anyway, a little common sense and some shooting usually settles them into something they can shoot well and enjoy, but not always.

    Good luck.

    sawdust2

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerwack View Post
    A "Smooth" draw is really subjective. Most of todays bows are acceptably "smooth" to draw under nearly any condition given that he or she is comfortable with whatever draw weight they have practiced with. I am under the belief that speed is Major for a hunting bow. Speed kills and those that say it isn't a big deal don't have it or can't get it. The ancient Mongols shot 160# bows for a reason, and it wasn't for the silky smooth draw cycle. They were after speed and killing power - just like us. Kinetic enery and penetration are velocity biased. If someone can easily draw 70# with a hard cam bow in any bodily position short of upside down and shoot fist sized groups
    to 60 yds, why wouldn't they do that vs a "smooth" 55#? Bone crushing penetration is in favor of the 70 # every time with the same arrow. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Nugent also suggests that everyone shoot a 30" arrow too? That makes no good sense to me either.
    I just about busted a gut .... Did ancient Mongols shoot compounds ? Do the math


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  24. #24
    That would be funny if that was what I said but what they shot were 160# avg. extreme recurves made of horn, sinew, wood and fish bladder glue laminate. They knew speed was critical and paid for it in draw weight. My ranking in the circuits is confidential though. I will give you a clue however, Alexander Kirilov likely busted a gut reading this too.

  25. #25
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    I think some may be missing the point. It is important to realize that many archers have a hard time drawing extreme cam bows and find themselves enjoyiing the sport less. If you shoot year around and are active in tournaments thats great but most do not.
    The point is not to buy more bow than you are comfortable with. Also keep in mind that bows made a few years ago at 70 pounds had no more hitting power than a 50# bow of today.
    Making anyone feel that they should have a heavier bow to be included is just wrong.Shooting a bow with more weight than an archer can handle is one of the biggest mistakes in the sport.
    I remeber a few years ago when so man wanted 80# bows - They could say "I have an 80# max super bow" and did'mt mention that it was backed off to less than 70# so they could draw it back. It all comes down to choosing the right bow for you and hitting the target.
    Just my opinion
    I started Archery History and Archery Talk to give archers a good true source of information, to have archers ask and answer questions and solve problems, and to see many of the bows and ideas from the past. It is also a way for me to give back the sport.
    Archers Helping Archers. Most important - Enjoy shooting and have fun.

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