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Thread: Tiller?

  1. #1
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    Tiller?

    I read the hoyt recurve manual about tiller setting but not quite get it. Both of my tiller are set at 1/8". Today while shooting, somewhere toward the end (about last 24arrows), the shots went up a lot, so i unstrung the bow and noticed the top tiller is loosen a bit somewhere between 1.5/8" to 2/8". Is that the reason why my shots went up? And in the manual, it said the bottom tiller can adjust bow weight and such? totally lost. Thanks in advance =]

    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.


  2. #2
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    Hey Noob,
    I'll get started, hopefully some more seasoned archers will fill in.
    I checked the manual online, and it provides good instruction.
    "Is that the reason why my shots went up?"
    There are a number of variables to cause upward shots. If the bow's adjustments are stable, then you can eliminate that variable, but it it more likely your form is changing as you shoot. Possibly a change in your bow hand pressure, or your release or...?
    Tiller.
    Tiller is the difference between two measurements between the limbs and the string, measured with the bow strung.
    Measure between the limb where it enters the riser square to the strung, at the top and bottom of the riser.
    A positive tiller, say + 1/8", would mean that the measurement of the top limb is 1/8" more than the measurement of the bottom limb.
    If your tiller is changing, that suggests two possibilities.
    One: The limb bolt, which provides the adjustment for tiller and weight, is not locked, and is loosening.
    Two: There is an issue with your limbs.
    The limb bolt is the more likely source of tiller change. I'm not familiar with the excel formula, but I would expect the manual to instruct you how to lock the limb bolt.
    On my Hoyt Matrix, you hold the top of the limb/tiller bolt with an allen wrench, and loosen the set screw at the other end of the bolt, inside the riser. Then you move the limb bolt to the desired setting, and while holding the top of the bolt, re-tighten the set screw inside the riser.
    My set screw fits in the end of the limb bolt, you should be able to see it if you look in the threaded hole on the side of the riser you see when you shoot.
    The tiller is normally adjusted with the bow unstrung. Try moving the limb bolt 1/4 turn at a time, loosening to increase the tiller on the limb in question, or tightening to decrease. Hoyt recomends a 0" to a 3/8" positive tiller, or both limbs the same distance from the string to the top limb 3/8" greather than the bottom limb.
    Once I have set the tiller, I make weight adjustments by carefully moving both limb bolts an equal # of turns, and I check the tiller when I'm done.
    Best, Butch
    unreformed meddler

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply ButchD, so when I strung the bow, the bottom limbs measurement is always shorter than top 1/8" right?
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  4. #4
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    You can keep it simple and use 0 tiller, and work with weight balance if needed. You can still score 1350+ with tiller set up like that.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    I read the hoyt recurve manual about tiller setting but not quite get it. Both of my tiller are set at 1/8". Today while shooting, somewhere toward the end (about last 24arrows), the shots went up a lot, so i unstrung the bow and noticed the top tiller is loosen a bit somewhere between 1.5/8" to 2/8". Is that the reason why my shots went up? And in the manual, it said the bottom tiller can adjust bow weight and such? totally lost. Thanks in advance =]
    Hello noobcaheo:

    You said...."so i unstrung the bow and noticed the top tiller is loosen a bit somewhere between 3/16ths-inch to 4/16ths inch"

    So,
    first of all,
    impossible to measure "tiller" after you have UNSTRUNG the bow.

    MUST measure tiller, when the bow is still strung.


    1) IF you are shooting split finger (index finger ABOVE the nock....middle and 4th finger BELOW the nock)
    ....then you want positive tiller, which means the TOP measurement is longer than the BOTTOM measurement...by about 4/16th inch.

    2) IF you are shooting 3 fingers under the nock....
    ....then you want ZERO tiller or EVEN tiller, which means the TOP measurement is the same as the BOTTOM measurement.

    Works better this way,
    cause of the position of the fingers on the bowstring
    or
    how much bowstring is ABOVE and BELOW your hand.

    When you have the split finger hold,
    you have LESS bowstring above the hand,
    so we need to weaken the top limb,
    by having a LONGER measurement for tiller on the top limb.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    I read the hoyt recurve manual about tiller setting but not quite get it. Both of my tiller are set at 1/8". Today while shooting, somewhere toward the end (about last 24arrows), the shots went up a lot, so i unstrung the bow and noticed the top tiller is loosen a bit somewhere between 1.5/8" to 2/8". Is that the reason why my shots went up? And in the manual, it said the bottom tiller can adjust bow weight and such? totally lost. Thanks in advance =]
    If you adjust the "tiller"...

    you can keep the weight the same...

    IF you adjust the limb bolts in opposite directions.

    BOTH of your tiller cannot be set to 1/8th inch.

    If you measure the TOP measurement
    and
    you measure the BOTTOM measurement...

    then,
    we want the TOP measurement to be 1/8th inch LONGER,
    to start the experiment.


    Let's say that your recurve bow is strung (bow string is installed)
    and
    your TOP and BOTTOM measurement are the same measurement (same length).

    We can UNSTRING the bow,
    and then...

    we adjust the limb bolt position on TOP and BOTTOM,
    with the bowstring OFF the bow.

    So,
    since we want to RELAX the top limb,
    we can turn the TOP limb bolt COUNTER-CLOCKWISE
    say 1/4-turn.


    Then,
    to keep the weight the same,
    we ALSO adjust the bottom limb bolt
    1/4-turn
    in the CLOCK WISE direction (opposite direction).


    So,
    we have made the same adjustment amount
    to BOTH limb bolts,
    but in OPPOSITE directions.

    This adjusts the tiller,
    and keeps the weight the same for you.

    We have RELAXED the top limb
    and
    we have STIFFENED the bottom limb.

    Next time you string the bow,
    and measure the TOP measurement, with the bowstring installed,
    and
    you measure the BOTTOM measurement, with the bowstring installed...

    you will see that the TOP measurement is slightly LONGER
    and
    you will see that the BOTTOM measurement is slightly SHORTER.

    This will work BETTER for you,
    IF you are using the split finger technique.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    I read the hoyt recurve manual about tiller setting but not quite get it. Both of my tiller are set at 1/8". Today while shooting, somewhere toward the end (about last 24arrows), the shots went up a lot, so i unstrung the bow and noticed the top tiller is loosen a bit somewhere between 1.5/8" to 2/8". Is that the reason why my shots went up? And in the manual, it said the bottom tiller can adjust bow weight and such? totally lost. Thanks in advance =]
    Another possibility,
    for your shots going HIGHER than normal...

    did your nock point slip DOWN?
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  8. #8
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    thank you guys, really makes sense to me now
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  9. #9
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    I made some adjustment and after the bow is strung, brace height is 8 7/8", top tiller 7 3/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Is this good? (25" riser med limbs)
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  10. #10
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    Just shoot!
    unreformed meddler

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    I made some adjustment and after the bow is strung, brace height is 8 7/8", top tiller 7 3/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Is this good? (25" riser med limbs)


    Yes.

    This is a good starting point.

    Shoot some short distance.
    Shoot some medium distance.

    See how you like the size of your arrow groups.

    Now you know how to adjust the tiller.
    After you have fired 100 shots,
    then, you can try slightly more tiller
    and shoot 100 shots and see how you like the size of your arrow groups.

    Then,
    you can try the other direction
    and see if LESS tiller works for you.

    Always try at least 100 shots and see if the change in tiller
    is a GOOD change (smaller arrow groups) on average
    or
    if the change was not so good for you...on average.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  12. #12
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    ok so for the last 3 hours i have been shooting, here is the result:

    Part 1: top tiller 7 4/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Shots scattered to the left. Usually I shoot at 20m and the shots went up and scattered. About 50 shots. Stood at 30m when my sight pin at 20m

    Part 2: top tiller 7 2/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Shots grouped up better but still scattered and to the left compare to before when at at 0 tiller. Shots still went up. So I pretty stood at 30m when my sight pin is at 20m

    This picture is pretty long time ago, before any adjustment to my bow, and I shoot with one finger up and 2 fingers down. It was at 0 tiller. Don't really know what is wrong nowT_T. 286934_10150248291556568_513111567_7912298_3677173_o.jpg
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  13. #13
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    Check your form. This problem has happened to me before, and it was because of my bow hand and a slight grip inconsistency that was causing the bow to tilt upwards upon release. It may be that your grip has shifted slightly during the session and you've unconsciously kept it that way.

  14. #14
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    i'll do another test tomorrow,i just set the bow back to 0 tiller just when it first got out of the shop.
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    ok so for the last 3 hours i have been shooting, here is the result:

    Part 1: top tiller 7 4/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Shots scattered to the left. Usually I shoot at 20m and the shots went up and scattered. About 50 shots. Stood at 30m when my sight pin at 20m

    Part 2: top tiller 7 2/8", bottom tiller 7 1/8". Shots grouped up better but still scattered and to the left compare to before when at at 0 tiller. Shots still went up. So I pretty stood at 30m when my sight pin is at 20m

    This picture is pretty long time ago, before any adjustment to my bow, and I shoot with one finger up and 2 fingers down. It was at 0 tiller. Don't really know what is wrong nowT_T. 286934_10150248291556568_513111567_7912298_3677173_o.jpg

    noobcaheo:

    If you can come down to Palo Alto,
    I can work with you in person.

    Part1: TOP tiller = 7-4/8 BOTTOM tiller = 7-1/8

    Shots scattered LEFT and shots went UP.

    When shots are going UP... you need to fire an arrow with no vanes (bareshaft)
    at a bullseye at YOUR exact shoulder height.

    If you fire a bareshaft at YOUR exact shoulder height above the ground,
    and the bareshaft POINT is sticking in target HIGHER than the nock end of the arrow...

    you MUST adjust the nocking point higher on your bow string,
    before you continue testing.

    So,
    let's say we MOVE your nocking point 1/8th inch higher on the bowstring.

    So,
    we fire the bareshaft AGAIN,
    at the bullseye at YOUR shoulder height.

    The bareshaft hits the bulls eye at YOUR shoulder height.

    The point is STILL HIGHER than the nock end of the arrow,
    but the point is LESS high than before...getting CLOSER to level.

    Ok.

    We move the nocking point higher up the bowstring again, another 1/8th inch.
    Continue to move the nocking point HIGHER up the bowstring,
    until the bare shaft is hitting the bullseye at YOUR shoulder height above the ground,
    DEAD LEVEL.


    Now that the nocking point is correct...

    MEASURE the BRACE HEIGHT.

    When you adjust tiller,
    you MUST adjust BOTH LIMB BOLTS
    and NOT JUST ONE LIMB BOLT.

    When you adjust tiller,
    you keep the brace height the SAME as before,
    and you TIGHTEN the TOP limb bolt a small amount
    AND
    you LOOSEN the BOTTOM LIMB BOLT the same small amount,

    so the brace height stays the same.


    What you did was to ONLY adjust the TOP limb bolt
    and you did nothing to the bottom limb bolt
    and this caused the arrows to fly HIGHER or LOWER.

    IF you tighten the TOP limb bolt 1/4 turn,
    your MUST LOOSEN the bottom limb bolt 1/4 turn
    in order to keep the same brace height.


    If your arrows are flying left,
    this COULD mean that the point weight in front is too low
    (you may need heavier screw in field points in front).

    If your arrows are flying left,
    this COULD also mean that the plunger button is sticking out too far
    (IF you are using a plunger button).
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
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    alanlui@comcast.net

  16. #16
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    @nuts and bolts: both of limb tiller bolts are set at mid point right now, which is 3 turns out, so from what you said, top limb bolt 1/4 turn counter clockwise and bottom limb bolt 1/4 clockwise?
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    @nuts and bolts: both of limb tiller bolts are set at mid point right now, which is 3 turns out, so from what you said, top limb bolt 1/4 turn counter clockwise and bottom limb bolt 1/4 clockwise?
    First,
    need you to setup a target block on a table, stack of boxes...

    whatever you need to do, to make the target block about chest high for you.

    Then,
    pin a target face so the bullseye is at YOUR exact shoulder height.

    Now,
    just step back say 10 yards,
    and fire an arrow with no vanes (bareshaft)
    at the bullseye.

    ADJUST your sight, until you can get the bareshaft to hit the bullseye.
    You may need to adjust the sight pin up or down to get the bareshaft to hit at the same elevation as the bullseye.

    If the bareshaft misses left or right,
    then you may need to adjust the sight pin windage (left or right) until you can get the bareshaft into the yellow center section
    (9 or 10 ring).

    Now,
    when the bareshaft point is in the 9 or 10 ring (yellow portion) of the target face,

    LOOK at the bareshaft arrow.

    IF the point is higher than the nock end of the bareshaft arrow...
    MOVE the nocking point HIGHER on the bowstring.

    IF the point is lower than the nock end of the bareshaft arrow...
    MOVE the nocking point LOWER on the bowstring.


    If you are using metal nocking points, then you need nocking pliers to loosen the brass
    nocking point, so you can move the nocking point up or down the bowstring.


    Gotta do this adjustment first,
    before you do anything with tiller.


    AFTER you have the bareshaft hitting the bullseye of the target face, which is at YOUR shoulder height...
    then, we do the tiller adjustment.

    If you move the top bolt TIGHTER by 1/4-turn,
    then
    you must also move the bottom bolt LOOSER by 1/4-turn.

    When you make the top limb HEAVIER/HARDER to pull by 1/4-turn,
    you must make the bottom limb LIGHTER/EASIER to pull by 1/4-turn.

    This keeps the weight of pulling the same.
    This should also keep the nocking point in the correct position,
    so that your arrows (with vanes) continue to fly level,
    when aiming at a bullseye at YOUR shoulder height.


    IF you only tighten the TOP limb bolt,
    you will make your arrows fly higher than normal.

    IF you only tighten the BOTTOM limb bolt,
    you will make your arrows fly lower than normal.


    This is why we need to you adjust the nocking point FIRST,
    shooting an arrow with no vanes,
    at a target face bullseye set at YOUR shoulder height.

    Arrow with no vanes has zero steering adjustment,
    so this test (shooting an arrow with no vanes)
    tells us easily,
    if you need to move the brass nocking point UP
    or DOWN.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  18. #18
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    i went to the range today to test the bow again and got good news and bad news. Good news is lucky this time, an old G archer helped me out with the tunning, he looked at it and move my nocking up 1/8" then he turned the top bolt 1/4 counter clockwise and bottom bolt clockwise. The group shots were tight and good , my face was like this the time O_O. Anyways bad news is at the end of the shooting, my cheap 9 dollars cartel sight got loose and the screw flew lost some where, time to get a new decent sight I guess. Again. Thank you guys for helping me out, really appreciate it.
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by noobcaheo View Post
    i went to the range today to test the bow again and got good news and bad news. Good news is lucky this time, an old G archer helped me out with the tunning, he looked at it and move my nocking up 1/8" then he turned the top bolt 1/4 counter clockwise and bottom bolt clockwise. The group shots were tight and good , my face was like this the time O_O. Anyways bad news is at the end of the shooting, my cheap 9 dollars cartel sight got loose and the screw flew lost some where, time to get a new decent sight I guess. Again. Thank you guys for helping me out, really appreciate it.
    Good to hear you found a fellow to help you in person.
    Always so much easier in person.

    If you are ever in the SF Bay area,
    let me know. I'm usually at the Palomo Indoor Range in Palo Alto,
    or can be, in minutes (evenings).
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  20. #20
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    I will try in January because next Fall quarter is really busy for me, part time job and full time school, I just joined an archery club that just formed in my school also.
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  21. #21
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    All of the advice given above is good, and correct. However, I discovered that for myself, I gain a lot more from just shooting than from worrying about tiller. I just set my tiller to zero, and then forget about it. I do the same for all the bows I set up for my club. Also, it seems that zero tiller usually produces the quietest bow.

    Noobcaheo... Hope to see you at the Club Officers Orientation meeting at UC Berkeley on 24 September.
    Dennis K. Lieu
    Professor of Mechanical Engineering
    UC Berkeley

    Faculty Advisor, UC Berkeley Archery Club

  22. #22
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    Tiller tuning is _mostly_ bollocks. If you start working with it you need to know how dynamic tiller and changing weight balances behaves. Quite a few really good archers never touch it.

  23. #23
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    @Dk Lieu: Thank you so much for helping our club out and yes I will come with Kevin on Sept 24.
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

  24. #24
    Hey Noob,

    I called you, texted you, and PMed you to meet as we planned you didn't respond. Not in So Cal anymore. I could've helped with your equipment issues but oh well. Would not have posted here but cannot contact you otherwise.

    Joe B.

  25. #25
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    WHAT!! I didn't receive any of your calls T_T
    Archers, Ready...Aim...Fire! Dedicated to the rangers and caped crusaders saving mankind one arrow at a time.

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