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Thread: A hunting arrow that Dr. Ashby would be proud of...

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0nepin View Post
    Is there a big advantage to the single bevel.
    When hitting the bone it will shatter it as opposed to trying to slice or wedge it apart.

  2. #177
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    Also, as Henro mentioned the "twisting/spinning" effect in the wound channel provides more of a hole as opposed to a sliver which allows a better channel for blood flow in most instances. By twisting it has the ability to come in contact with more tissue, literally grabbing at it, and thus devastates more as it punches through the animal.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by henro View Post
    Those things look awesome on the end of those vaps. If you didn't know how big that arrow really was you would thing it was something meant to throw.



  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0nepin View Post
    Is there a big advantage to the single bevel.
    The best way to understand it's advantages is to read the Ashby reports. He gives full detailed reports on it's design and benefits. If you haven't read his reports I REALLY suggest you give them a whirl. I learned a ton from them and it's all real world testing. You don't have to take it as the bible to you but anything you can pickup and apply to your setup will help you gain penetration and a better understanding of what it takes to build a lethal hunting arrow.

    This is all his reports and the second link is about the single bevel design:

    http://www.tuffhead.com/education/ashby.html

    http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/a...Broadheads.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyZ7 View Post
    When hitting the bone it will shatter it as opposed to trying to slice or wedge it apart.
    It actually is designed to split and crack hard bone to better penetrate through it. It twists or rotates as it penetrates an object and the twisting causes the two sides of the object it's penetrating to push away from each other causing them to split and continuing to drive through and beyond.

    Quote Originally Posted by owmygulay View Post
    Those things look awesome on the end of those vaps. If you didn't know how big that arrow really was you would thing it was something meant to throw.
    Yeah this is a 27" carbon to carbon shaft.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  5. #180
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    marked for reference for the great information.

  6. #181
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    henro.....glad you talked to Nick.....he is a FOUNTAIN of info.......and a phenomenal guy.
    I am also glad that you found them acceptable.
    NOT glad that they were not spinning true......as they are supposed to be checked......although that mongo Tanto may be a bit of a learning curve for me.
    Another note about single bevels is that they spin AWAY from bone on glancing hits (according to Dr Ashby).
    Let the trees and dirt beware........your set up is gonna be enough to shoot a bus with !
    National Sales Manager at Xpedition Archery
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    Mossy Oak Pro Staff

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwayslookin View Post
    henro.....glad you talked to Nick.....he is a FOUNTAIN of info.......and a phenomenal guy.
    I am also glad that you found them acceptable.
    NOT glad that they were not spinning true......as they are supposed to be checked......although that mongo Tanto may be a bit of a learning curve for me.
    Another note about single bevels is that they spin AWAY from bone on glancing hits (according to Dr Ashby).
    Let the trees and dirt beware........your set up is gonna be enough to shoot a bus with !
    Lol when does bus season start? Thanks for your input and yes Nick was great to talk with about my setup and the way you guys build these broadheads. He said you're the only ones in the country who grind titanium I believe? I was aggravated about the heads not spinning true at first but the way Nick's wife explained how to fix them made it easy to adjust them. Nick explained it was from having the inserts from one company with one tolerance level and the ferrule from another with a slight difference in tolerance. Said it was just some tweaking on your end before they go out and apologized for these not being shipped out right.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by henro View Post
    Lol when does bus season start? Thanks for your input and yes Nick was great to talk with about my setup and the way you guys build these broadheads. He said you're the only ones in the country who grind titanium I believe? I was aggravated about the heads not spinning true at first but the way Nick's wife explained how to fix them made it easy to adjust them. Nick explained it was from having the inserts from one company with one tolerance level and the ferrule from another with a slight difference in tolerance. Said it was just some tweaking on your end before they go out and apologized for these not being shipped out right.


    I am just happy that you got it fixed........shoot the worst two and tell us what you got for results.......they should be fine right out of the pack.
    The best customer service is the one you don't have to use..........but this stuff happens.
    Thanks for the patience.
    National Sales Manager at Xpedition Archery
    "Shut up and shoot"
    Mossy Oak Pro Staff

  9. #184
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    thats a bad MR5

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwayslookin View Post
    [/COLOR]I am just happy that you got it fixed........shoot the worst two and tell us what you got for results.......they should be fine right out of the pack.
    The best customer service is the one you don't have to use..........but this stuff happens.
    Thanks for the patience.
    Listen I'm a car salesman. You don't have to explain that to me. I fully understand things happen. It's how the company resolves the issue that makes/breaks them. Your company handled it as best it could and I was fully satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by 05cummins View Post
    thats a bad MR5
    Thanks! I can easily say it's my favorite Mathews bow(and any for that matter) that I've owned to date. I have the Monster 6.7 as well and previously owned a Z7, DXT, Prestige and Switchback).
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  11. #186
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    Bump it up so some more people can see the finished results.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  12. #187
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    Not going to argue with the good Doctors results as he has published enough research to convince me of the benefits of heavy and slow at least from a physics standpoint. I'll buy all the mathematical wizzardry as I am quite familiar with much of it from my days as a stressed out mechanical engineering student. However....

    How many times haven't we either seen up close and in person or on video, that deer with ninja like reflexes that jumps an arrow?

    I've seen enough that I will take a hard look at single bevels, but I am still not convinced that speed should be so heavily discounted... especially when hunting wily white tails that are not a threat to gore your Range Rover and stomp you into dust after you fall off the tail gate.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by LawnDartLeo View Post
    Not going to argue with the good Doctors results as he has published enough research to convince me of the benefits of heavy and slow at least from a physics standpoint. I'll buy all the mathematical wizzardry as I am quite familiar with much of it from my days as a stressed out mechanical engineering student. However....

    How many times haven't we either seen up close and in person or on video, that deer with ninja like reflexes that jumps an arrow?

    I've seen enough that I will take a hard look at single bevels, but I am still not convinced that speed should be so heavily discounted... especially when hunting wily white tails that are not a threat to gore your Range Rover and stomp you into dust after you fall off the tail gate.
    I'm still shooting 281fps? That's not slow. Too many people get hung up on speed. When you actually calculate say a 20fps difference in time it takes an arrow to hit a target at say 40yds its a couple tenths of a second. Plus the heavier arrows are much quieter so you won't be spooking the animal as much. I've been hunting with arrows around 550gr the last 4 years and never had an animal jump my string. I also try not to shoot when they're looking at me. The first year I was shooting 259fps with a Z7 and never had any issues.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  14. #189
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    So all this is because you didn't get good penetration with a Rage broadhead? Wow. I thought I took things to the extreme. I will say for sure you are prepared for the worst, especialy if you find dangerous game coming after you. Nice buck by the way. I hope you get a crack at him this year. Hunted NJ for twenty years before moving to the midwest.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenlittleman View Post
    So all this is because you didn't get good penetration with a Rage broadhead? Wow. I thought I took things to the extreme. I will say for sure you are prepared for the worst, especialy if you find dangerous game coming after you. Nice buck by the way. I hope you get a crack at him this year. Hunted NJ for twenty years before moving to the midwest.
    Lol no it's not just that. The rage head was just an example of showing how all parts of the equation are important to penetration. I already had good mass weight with high KE and MO and proper arrow flight. Now I've added a much better penetrating broadhead design as well as higher FOC. If the old setup could be stopped by that small doe, it only shows that a big buck will be that much tougher if hit in the wrong spot. Now I'm ready for the worst and really not sacrificing much of anything? There's nothing wrong with having too good of a penetrating setup in the archery world. Our ultimate goal is a complete pass through and this setup is built to try to accomplish that at any scenario.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  16. #191
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    That is true. There have been many times I have had doubt but I have been lucky enough that penetration has never been an issue for me. I will admitt that I am looking for something /set up for better penetration as well but I just haven't gotten to your level yet. Opportunities don't come as often as we want and when it does on that once in a life time it would be nice to know that even if I don't execute perfectly my set up will make up for the difference. Show us some pics of the big NJ deer when you get him.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenlittleman View Post
    That is true. There have been many times I have had doubt but I have been lucky enough that penetration has never been an issue for me. I will admitt that I am looking for something /set up for better penetration as well but I just haven't gotten to your level yet. Opportunities don't come as often as we want and when it does on that once in a life time it would be nice to know that even if I don't execute perfectly my set up will make up for the difference. Show us some pics of the big NJ deer when you get him.
    Thanks I definitely will. My brother had a too close to call encounter last year opening day with him but he's still roaming our woods.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  18. #193
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    Got the wheels spinning again... Just shot with 300gr fp's my brother got for his recurve on my arrows and only had about 3" drop at 40yds... Bow was dead quiet! Might have to play around with them... If they show good spine results I could shoot a true 3:1 Ashby style head.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  19. #194
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    Figured I'd throw this out there... I did some brief testing just shooting the VAP's I built into my Rhinehart Rhinoblock. I just wanted to see how they shot with a 200gr head on them versus the 145gr head. The shafts with the 145gr heads weighed 544.7gr with 20.75% FOC and were going 281fps. The shafts with the 200gr heads weight 599.3gr with 22.88% FOC and were going 268fps. I was pretty impressed with the speeds of this heavier shaft from my MR5 at 29"/70lbs!

    Now I know the target I was shooting has no relationship to shooting a deer or any game animal. This test was just to have a side by side comparison into the same medium. I made sure to shoot the arrows that were being compared very closely to each other to try to hit the same density on the target. The shots were only taken from about 10 yards away. Average penetration for the 145gr shafts came to 13" exactly. The 200gr heads were noticeably better averaging 15 1/16". I was pretty surprised as this represents a 15.87% increase in penetration over the 145gr shafts!

    I don't know if I'm going to make a change or not because I really like the 145gr Steelforce heads I have now and the bow is tuned perfectly to them. I shot a couple bareshafts with fletched arrows using the 200gr heads just to see how they fly and they were close but the rest would need some slight tweaking. I don't think I want to go through moving it now and having to find another broadhead to use. I thought this would be good info for others to see though.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  20. #195
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    Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbow View Post
    Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?
    I'm using carbon I'm not changing that. The second question was already asked earlier. I'm not looking to shoot a 650+ grain arrow as I'm only hunting deer with this. One of Ashby's major points was that not everyone will/has to use his readings to the exact letter but to try to incorporate as much of his research as you can to benefit your setup. My recurve arrows I'm building are a lot closer to full recommendations. They're coming in at 700-730gr with 25-27+% FOC depending on how they tune out.
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  22. #197
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    Hey Henro.......just a quick thought.......one premise that I have tried to express before is that the 100/145 is a much shorter head than the longer 190-300 grainers. This causes a much more "violent" rotation. If I use a 145 2 balde double bevel African and the new 145 single.......the double will out penetrate the single.....every time....every medium. The 3:1 145 double will best them both. Interesting note.....if you measure to the widest point of the main blade or the insert.....the short 145 double is the best.
    But the 225 single vs the 300 single is virtually identical with tuned set ups. Occasionally the 300's will weaken spine enough that they do not penetrate as well.
    I think the shorter singles are a good compromise head.....allowing realistic trajectories and the percieved advantages of a single bevel all in one. But they rotate once inside the target at a much faster rate which makes them meet a little more resistance.
    Glad you like the 145's.....and with most set ups.....this head will be devastating.
    National Sales Manager at Xpedition Archery
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  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwayslookin View Post
    Hey Henro.......just a quick thought.......one premise that I have tried to express before is that the 100/145 is a much shorter head than the longer 190-300 grainers. This causes a much more "violent" rotation. If I use a 145 2 balde double bevel African and the new 145 single.......the double will out penetrate the single.....every time....every medium. The 3:1 145 double will best them both. Interesting note.....if you measure to the widest point of the main blade or the insert.....the short 145 double is the best.
    But the 225 single vs the 300 single is virtually identical with tuned set ups. Occasionally the 300's will weaken spine enough that they do not penetrate as well.
    I think the shorter singles are a good compromise head.....allowing realistic trajectories and the percieved advantages of a single bevel all in one. But they rotate once inside the target at a much faster rate which makes them meet a little more resistance.
    Glad you like the 145's.....and with most set ups.....this head will be devastating.
    Good info for sure. Like you said I think the head I have now has the best of everything in it. The shorter blade is less prone to tip bending but I think the single bevel will still penetrate hard bone better. I think combining this setup with my MR5 which is packing the heat will overcome the extra twist brought on by the single bevel. I also like the idea of more twisting to tear up more vital parts inside the animal. One thing I thought was cool from reading Ashby's reports was how effective the single bevel design is on shots far back in the intestine/gut area and how it tears them up. Now I'm not going to just try and aim for brown and hit the animal anywhere but I think this is gonna be a lethal package... Btw, do you think you can make me a titanium head like the 145s I have but in a 200gr version? I called and left 2 messages this week at the shop but never got a call back. My brother might buy my 145s if I decide to go to a 200gr and they tune well...
    Mathews MR5 29"@71lbs
    Gold Tip Kinetic Big Game .200 752gr@239fps 24.21% FOC

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbow View Post
    Hey henro, i could be completely wrong, but i thought that Ashby's reports showed that a hardwood arrow was stronger than alum and carbon. Plus the ideal weight was between 650-800 grains?
    dbow.......while Dr Ashby has done extensive testing, and I respect a lot of his conjecture. He also creates a set up with less useful trajectory, using less accurate components (see not as consisitent in straightness or repeatable weight tolerance Wood vs Carbon/Aluminum/etc), and maintains the concept of maximizing the results from low efficiency set ups.

    In my opinion , and experience, most hunters are not willing to accept the limitations of Dr Ashby's equipment, as their wholesale application will not be as utilitarian in actual field experience.
    To adopt a wood arrow mentality for "strength" (which I seriously question) and then having to deal with consistent arrow weight/consistency/availability issues down the road, lack of options in terminal components, and the shear amount of time needed to set up an Ashby arrow (let alone the bow) is a micromanagement of a relatively non existent problem. All in all......it creates a bit of a logistcal nightmare in an effort to appease the theoretical.
    National Sales Manager at Xpedition Archery
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    Mossy Oak Pro Staff

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by henro View Post
    Good info for sure. Like you said I think the head I have now has the best of everything in it. The shorter blade is less prone to tip bending but I think the single bevel will still penetrate hard bone better. I think combining this setup with my MR5 which is packing the heat will overcome the extra twist brought on by the single bevel. I also like the idea of more twisting to tear up more vital parts inside the animal. One thing I thought was cool from reading Ashby's reports was how effective the single bevel design is on shots far back in the intestine/gut area and how it tears them up. Now I'm not going to just try and aim for brown and hit the animal anywhere but I think this is gonna be a lethal package... Btw, do you think you can make me a titanium head like the 145s I have but in a 200gr version? I called and left 2 messages this week at the shop but never got a call back. My brother might buy my 145s if I decide to go to a 200gr and they tune well...
    henro.....best to PM or email me......Nick's wife is part time for the next couple weeks and she answers the phone.
    If the grinder is set up I can have them do a single bevel in the 190 African.......it comes up at like 205 ish.......Stainless 080 blade.....same ferrule as the other SB head.
    National Sales Manager at Xpedition Archery
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    Mossy Oak Pro Staff

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