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Thread: How much is too much mass weight for a recurve?

  1. #1
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    How much is too much mass weight for a recurve?

    I would like to add mass weight to my stabilizers on my recurve to bring it up to the weight of my compound set-up.Is this a normal way to set-up a recurve? It just feels really light other wise???? Ken



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    No exact number for everyone, just for you. When I see a bow that's too heavy for someone, they usually begin to compensate after shooting a while by leaning back. If you can maintain good form and the last arrow is shot as well as the first, then your bow isn't too heavy for you. Really, that's the only way to know for sure, and it helps to have a good coach watching you.

    For most shooters, erring on the side of too light would be far better than too heavy.

    John
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    Too heavy is also when the bow shoulder rides up, and when they release, the bow drops like a sack of bricks.

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    Balance is more important. Why do you want it the same as your compound?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flehrad View Post
    Too heavy is also when the bow shoulder rides up, and when they release, the bow drops like a sack of bricks.
    can you elaborate a little more? I know that dropping the bow during follow through is bad, but you mentioned the bow shoulder rides up. what if the bow shoulder drops but the arm doesn't? what does that indicate?

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    Sometimes seeing a bow drop "like a sack of bricks" on the follow through is due to a conscious attempt to snap the wrist down - the way coach Lee teaches (or at least taught) at the OTC.

    John
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    I should clarify, that the arm drops like a sack of bricks, not necessarily the bow itself. My bad.
    I used to do it too and it was costing me a lot of points as it just causes arrows to drop upon release, which, doesn't seem like it would do much but on recurve, especially at 90m, makes huge differences.

    The bow shoulder riding up means that the deltoid is too weak to support the arm in the right position and that trapizius is taking on the load, so the bow shoulder girdle is coming up, and you're losing tension that you should have in rhomboids and latissimus dorsi by keeping the shoulder down and solid.

    If they have a shoulder riding up and it drops upon release but the arm stays still, then they're doing something very strange lol...

  8. #8
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    I -

    John nailed it on both posts. If you have to struggle to keep the bow on target or you're getting shoulder soreness (deltiod or trapezius muscles), it's too much weight and you will start to compensate. I like a single long front rod with enough head weight to cause a fairly quick rotation, but that's a personal call. Handling the physical weight of the bow is something you actually can (and most likely should) do some dumb bell work for.

    Also not a fan of the forced wrist drop, just forcing you to do more work that the bow is fully capable of doing on it's own

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Sometimes seeing a bow drop "like a sack of bricks" on the follow through is due to a conscious attempt to snap the wrist down - the way coach Lee teaches (or at least taught) at the OTC.

    John
    Wrist 'snap' actually helps to keep the the bow arm up by switching tension from lower to upper muscles on the forearm, but its main reason is totally different. Jake Kaminski explained that before on this forum here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...post1057540163

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    George -

    The problem with that (for most people, anyway) is that it's another function the shooter has to preform, aka another possible thing to go wrong. A "dead" appearing bow arm, with an open or nearly open bow hand, implies that the bow (a simple machine) will do the same thing every time. Most people shoot better when they stay out of the bow's way.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper1 View Post
    George -

    The problem with that (for most people, anyway) is that it's another function the shooter has to preform, aka another possible thing to go wrong. A "dead" appearing bow arm, with an open or nearly open bow hand, implies that the bow (a simple machine) will do the same thing every time. Most people shoot better when they stay out of the bow's way.

    Viper1 out.
    Tony,

    I am not mocking T square way of shooting or trying to make anyone to shoot BEST. I am only trying to clear some misconceptions, and misunderstandings. How to shoot is up to individual archer.

    George

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    George -

    I know you're not, and I do believe that there are a lot of misconceptions - on both sides.

    How an individual archer shoots is of course up to that person. The problem, that I see anyway, is that too many people jump on the latest and greatest bandwagon without really understanding what's going or rather when to use a give approach and when not to - and we've both seen that, actually with the same people!!!

    We can talk next Saturday, if you like.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

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    I'd like to know the mass weight of most of the USAT shooters such as Brady, Jake, and Joe along with the trend of putting the vbar right next to the riser sans extension. I remember reading a post on the Hoyt site discussing the removal of stabilizer dampners and adding weight to reduce oscillation and create more stable aim. I also remember me thinking their setups must weigh a ton
    The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The leader adjusts the sails.

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    Matt -

    With all due respect, no - you don't. That's one of the problems I was referring too. Too many people want to know (and copy) what Brady, Jake, and Joe are doing, rather than what works best for you. This simple fact is that you ain't them and their stuff might not be optimal for you, or you may not be able to exploit it - yet.

    Sort of a hot button with me, but I can't tell you how many shooters I see who would do better, MUCH better, by dropping a little draw weight, the v-bars (physical weight) and work more on the basics than some technique that they don't fully understand, or may go out of vogue next season.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  15. #15
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    Viper - Although I understand where you are coming from with your response, I'll be the one who decides what information I want to seek out. I've been shooting recurve target archery for 14 years now and have no expectations of becoming an elite archer. But this certainly doesn't mean I cannot search out what others are doing and decide whether or not it's for me.

    Prime example of what happened this year, I've shot a single long rod for the entire duration of my shooting. Just this weekend I bought an extension with a shorter stabilizer and set up the typical vbar setup and found I thoroughly enjoy it. So by that standard, I should try out this new "trend" in 10 years or so I wouldn't get too excited...
    The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The leader adjusts the sails.

    One man's ceiling is another man's floor

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    Mat -

    The real question is did you shooting improve and will it continue to improve after the honeymoon stage? If it does, then great, that's what you needed. If it doesn't, take it as a lesson learned. Unfortunately, most people don't do that.

    Also remember, that even though I replied to your post, my comments where general in nature.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  17. #17
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    No worries, good sir. I understand where you are coming from.
    The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The leader adjusts the sails.

    One man's ceiling is another man's floor

  18. #18
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    Matt, for what it's worth, I weight each setup I shoot (and test) so that they come out to exactly 7 lbs.

    I want to know that a bow is reacting a certain way, or that I'm feeling something because of the bow itself and how I have it set up, and not because it's just lighter or heavier than the other bows I'm testing.

    For me at least, I've found 7 lbs. to be a really nice compromise between stability and something I can shoot comfortably all day.

    YMMV however.

    When I think about most of the Korean's bows, there is no possible way they are 7 lbs. More likely 6 lbs. or less based on what I see. And many of the Italians are shooting bows upwards of 8 lbs. So that's something to consider too.

    John
    Renegade Archer

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by I BOW 2 View Post
    I would like to add mass weight to my stabilizers on my recurve to bring it up to the weight of my compound set-up.Is this a normal way to set-up a recurve? It just feels really light other wise???? Ken
    The big difference between compound bow and recurve (Olympic style) bow is that in recurve at full draw you have to dominate >40# to keep sight steady in the gold, while in compound you only have 15# available for it.
    So, basically you should add weight to a recurve bow to balance it, and you shoud reduce the weight of the compound bow to achieve same balance.
    But, unfortunately, while you can add weight to a recurve set up and find a proper balance at around 3+ kgs total mass, you are starting with 2+ kg with a bare compound and you can't reduce its weight.
    So, shooting a compound by definition includes a much different use of bow side of your body than shooting recurve, as the compound has to be kept on line with more use of front muscles than recurve, just to lift and keep on its weight, compensating the lack of poundage at full draw.
    Because of this, if you are coming to recurve from compound shooting only, you wil feel the boow to be too light and you will tend to add weigh to it to get back to your "compound feeling". But, of course, this not the correct solution, at least for the majority of the recurve archers.
    In recurve, you have to look for vertical stability ad full draw and dinamic reaction on the line of the target upon release, by compensating the draw poundage by the addition of stabilizers (distribution of stabilizers only effect the dinamic reaction, not the static balance). Because of simple mechanic balance of th ebow system, you wil also easily find that heavier is the bow, lower should be the point of pressure on the grip to keep it stable and viceversa.
    In compund, because the static weight is already more than what needed for the proper balance, then the grip by definitionis as low as possible, and you will never see any compound archer shooting high grip style because of this.
    Because of the need of additional force (to be added to let off poundage) to keep a compound on the e line of aiming, then you will quite commonly block the front shoulder in against your spine (were in the recurve is usually out and on the line of the other shoulder) and sometime you wil also bend bow elbow down for the same purpose .

    May be I made it too much complicated, and for sure in these days is on fashion to increase weight on any kind of bow. But in recurve at the end the weight is ever proportional to the poundage shot. Brady's bow is very heavy, but he is also in the 55# area, to remember. Compound archers are adding in these days tons of weight to their bows. For sure thay want their bows to feel more stable, and commit much more personal training to weight lifting to get them up in this situation. I have had a look to several top compound shooters bows in Nimes this year, and all those from US were having kilos of metal everywere on their stabilizers (but winner has been Sergio Pagni with a Beiter light long rod and no side bar at all... ). But, no reason to do same for recurve. IMHO.
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  20. #20
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    Vittorio, thanks for the reply, that was really what I am looking for is nuts and bolts type information regarding the recurve. My goal for the recurve is two fold. One to try a different style for fun and relaxation. ;>) and Two to use the higher holding weight to improve my compound shooting. And yes the feeling between the two types of bows is very different to control the finer aiming compensations. Ken

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittorio View Post
    The big difference between compound bow and recurve (Olympic style) bow is that in recurve at full draw you have to dominate >40# to keep sight steady in the gold, while in compound you only have 15# available for it.
    So, basically you should add weight to a recurve bow to balance it, and you shoud reduce the weight of the compound bow to achieve same balance.
    But, unfortunately, while you can add weight to a recurve set up and find a proper balance at around 3+ kgs total mass, you are starting with 2+ kg with a bare compound and you can't reduce its weight.
    So, shooting a compound by definition includes a much different use of bow side of your body than shooting recurve, as the compound has to be kept on line with more use of front muscles than recurve, just to lift and keep on its weight, compensating the lack of poundage at full draw.
    Because of this, if you are coming to recurve from compound shooting only, you wil feel the boow to be too light and you will tend to add weigh to it to get back to your "compound feeling". But, of course, this not the correct solution, at least for the majority of the recurve archers.
    In recurve, you have to look for vertical stability ad full draw and dinamic reaction on the line of the target upon release, by compensating the draw poundage by the addition of stabilizers (distribution of stabilizers only effect the dinamic reaction, not the static balance). Because of simple mechanic balance of th ebow system, you wil also easily find that heavier is the bow, lower should be the point of pressure on the grip to keep it stable and viceversa.
    In compund, because the static weight is already more than what needed for the proper balance, then the grip by definitionis as low as possible, and you will never see any compound archer shooting high grip style because of this.
    Because of the need of additional force (to be added to let off poundage) to keep a compound on the e line of aiming, then you will quite commonly block the front shoulder in against your spine (were in the recurve is usually out and on the line of the other shoulder) and sometime you wil also bend bow elbow down for the same purpose .

    May be I made it too much complicated, and for sure in these days is on fashion to increase weight on any kind of bow. But in recurve at the end the weight is ever proportional to the poundage shot. Brady's bow is very heavy, but he is also in the 55# area, to remember. Compound archers are adding in these days tons of weight to their bows. For sure thay want their bows to feel more stable, and commit much more personal training to weight lifting to get them up in this situation. I have had a look to several top compound shooters bows in Nimes this year, and all those from US were having kilos of metal everywere on their stabilizers (but winner has been Sergio Pagni with a Beiter light long rod and no side bar at all... ). But, no reason to do same for recurve. IMHO.
    Vittorio......Outstanding post!.......Thanks for that............Harperman
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vittorio View Post
    Recurve (Olympic style) bow ... you have to dominate >40# to keep sight steady in the gold. ... IMHO
    That's a really great way to express the requirement for draw weight for Olympic Recurve. Merely pulling or holding a weight isn't sufficient; you have to dominate it in order to be an effective shooter at that draw weight.

    When writing, you tend not to worry about the weight of the pen, you just use it as a tool. Once you're that comfortable with a draw weight, you're bound to execute your form better and be a better shooter.

    That phrase is going straight into my training notebook.

    -T

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Matt, for what it's worth, I weight each setup I shoot (and test) so that they come out to exactly 7 lbs.

    I want to know that a bow is reacting a certain way, or that I'm feeling something because of the bow itself and how I have it set up, and not because it's just lighter or heavier than the other bows I'm testing.

    For me at least, I've found 7 lbs. to be a really nice compromise between stability and something I can shoot comfortably all day.

    YMMV however.

    When I think about most of the Korean's bows, there is no possible way they are 7 lbs. More likely 6 lbs. or less based on what I see. And many of the Italians are shooting bows upwards of 8 lbs. So that's something to consider too.

    John
    Seems like good advice there. I borrowed my wife's kitchen scale to get a good measurement of my setup. I'll keep an eye on weight changes and see if I can find a weight that works well for me.

    Curiously, my guess for my bow's weight was off by a significant amount (It's lighter than I thought). I'd bet a fair number of shooters would be surprised if they weighed their bow setup.

    -Tony

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Sometimes seeing a bow drop "like a sack of bricks" on the follow through is due to a conscious attempt to snap the wrist down - the way coach Lee teaches (or at least taught) at the OTC.

    John
    He doesn't teach the wrist drop anymore?? Wonder if the shooters started developing wrist problems from having the mass weight of the bow constantly swinging from loose distended tendons and ligaments ??

  25. #25
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    Art, I couldn't tell you. I had to leave the Jr. Dream Team coaching staff when I ran out of vacation time in 2007, and I made a conscious decision after that to use my vacation time on my family since then. But there are dozens of coaches around now that could tell you what the latest is...

    John
    Renegade Archer

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