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Thread: What arrow?

  1. #1
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    What arrow?

    If the young one is drawing to 26.25" to the front of her riser and is 22.5# on the fingers what spine arrow should she use? I have read conflicting views here in the archives. She is definitely using the wrong (however free) arrows from her JOAD club which are 1416 xx75 PP's. We have been told anything from .730 to .900 Carbon Ones. There is a set of used ACC's right now in classifieds for $80 in 2-04/.920. I don't want to buy the wrong arrows so any help would be appreciated. I am grateful for all the knowledge I've gained by eavesdropping on all these threads over the past few months.



    Pete


  2. #2
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    I'd think you're looking for something in the 1000 spine range. I'm tuning at 1000 Carbon One with 90 grain points at 34lb limbs drawing about 30ish on my fingers. Have someone who has one of the archery calculators run the numbers for you. I have a feeling you may need something even softer. .730 will be way too stiff for sure.

  3. #3
    There are certainly folks on this board that are far more knowledgeable on this topic than I; however, I just went through this process myself, so I can offer you a practical account of what I did....

    I'm guessing that the 1416 shafts (spine of 1684) are too soft for her, yes? You've done the papertest, or the bareshaft test, yes? and they indicate too soft, yes?

    The Easton Target Selection Chart says she is in Group 03 and should be shooting something around 1100 (like the 1614). I've had better luck by shooting up one group which would put her into Group 02 and shooting something around 1300 (like the 1514).

    What finally worked for me was to buy 4 arrows, 2 fletched and 2 unfletched at what you think is the right spine value (1100 or 1300) for her, or you could even buy 4 of the 1514 and 4 of the 1614. Then do the papertest and the bareshaft test with each set of arrows. At worst case all you're out is the cost four arrows (which you could donate to the JOAD program), but you'll also know which arrows work best for her. Also remember the variables (other than the arrowshaft) that will change the dynamic spine, length of the arrow (the spine value is rated for a 29inch arrow, you don't have to cut them down), lite or heavy tips using RPS inserts, nock weight (using pin nocks or not), pushbutton tension, and remember to get the arrow on center with the rest/riser with pushbutton alignment.

    There's a Easton Tuning guide http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/dow...ning_guide.pdf that is also very helpful in getting arrows tuned.

    Todd

  4. #4
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    Try downloading Stu Millers spine calculator an see what that says. It normally puts you in the ballpark at least.
    My wife pulls 28#@27" and uses 1716 shafts, can't remember the point weight though.

  5. #5
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    Cephas, are you looking to keep her arrows a little long for growing room? if she's young enough to still be growing, i'd leave her arrows at least 1.5 inches longer, that way you're not buying a new set every 3 months. and if they will be longer, go for the slightly stiff option. as her draw length increases, so does the poundage, so arrows that were just right at first will now be on the weak side.

    phil

  6. #6
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    Phil, I definitely want to leave a little length to let her grow into them, that's a great idea.

    BigJono, I tried out the spine calc and the best I could get was within 1.4 pounds which is within the given tolerance of 2# difference between the bow and arrow, after that it's fine tuning I guess. It says to use a Carbon One 1150 which it looks like I can play around with over time and shorten a little and change the point weight to take her into the mid 30# range if she ends up even keeping them that long (or hands them down to her younger brother).

    Todd, I am going to take your advice and try a couple different spines before going all in on a dozen, thanks.

    Thanks for all the help, we're on a steep learning curve here. Pete

  7. #7
    One thing to keep in mind about all carbon arrows and novice archers if shooting outside at longer ranges, metal detectors don't find buried carbon arrows but they will find alluminum ones, and it's a less costly to loose an aluminum arrow that it is a carbon arrow. That's one factor that made me choose aluminum arrows, at least for now. Later on I willl be buying Easton's carbon/aluminum hybrid arrows.

    Todd

  8. #8
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    I think sometimes we're guilty ( I know many JOAD parents and archers who are examples of this) of just assuming an archer needs a carbon or carbon/aluminum arrow when a good old xx75 aluminum shaft will do the job just fine, at a lower cost and higher recovery rate.

    Honestly, any archer shooting less than 30# at 28" really needs to consider aluminum shafts, unless they just cannot reach their longest distance at all. Arrows that fill that need will be pretty small in diameter anyway, and won't weigh all that much more than their A/C or carbon counterparts.

    People either forget, or just don't realize, that many, many 1300's have been shot with aluminum arrows in the past with even slower bows and bowstrings than we use today.

    John
    Renegade Archer

  9. #9
    What I found - hope this helps.

    My draw length 27". With 22lb on fingers, 1416s are easily tuned into the group at 20 yards. So are 1516 and (pretty much) 1616..... As 1416s are the lightest, I go for them. They seem the most consistent / forgiving, maybe because they go a little bit faster?

    ACCs. 1150s are too stiff for me at 22lb, even with relatively heavy (70gr) point. They tune into the group at 20 yards with 28lb OTF. With 22lb, 1300 ACCs tune fine.

    Incidentally, had some Navigators (880). Way too stiff even on 32lbs OTF. Bare shaft off the target to the left.

    YMMV, of course.

  10. #10
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    16/1000's is a pretty thick-walled aluminum shaft. If it were me, I'd be looking for 14's. Many of the first 1300's shot were shot with 2014's, and that seems like a good balance between durability, stiffness and weight.

    Something like a 1713/14, 1813/14, etc. would probably be a good bet.

    John
    Renegade Archer

  11. #11
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    How many guys shot 1300's with aluminum arrows outside of the guy who did it first, Darrell Pace.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cephas View Post
    If the young one is drawing to 26.25" to the front of her riser and is 22.5# on the fingers what spine arrow should she use? I have read conflicting views here in the archives. She is definitely using the wrong (however free) arrows from her JOAD club which are 1416 xx75 PP's. We have been told anything from .730 to .900 Carbon Ones. There is a set of used ACC's right now in classifieds for $80 in 2-04/.920. I don't want to buy the wrong arrows so any help would be appreciated. I am grateful for all the knowledge I've gained by eavesdropping on all these threads over the past few months.

    Pete
    With 21 pounds on the fingers and full-length Carbon One 1000 arrows with 70 grain points my daughter's bow still tunes a little stiff on her Formula Excel bow. I'll bet that the lightest 1150 Carbon One's would work for your girl if you leave them at full length.

  13. #13
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    Cephas-

    If she is not using a clicker …

    1. Go to the Easton Target Arrow Selection Chart.
    2. Find the row with her recurve draw weight (e.g. 22.5 is between 17 and 23 lbs, so row 1).
    3. Decide how long you are willing the arrow to be (e.g. 29''). The longer you choose the longer it will be before she grows out of the arrow.
    4. Pick the Arrow Group in that row that corresponds to that maximum length (e.g. T3).

    Now go to the box corresponding to that group and choose an arrow of a type appropriate for your budget, her shooting conditions, etc.. If the group box gives you a choice of more than one spine of the same type of arrow choose the stiffest. For example, in Group T3 there are two models of XX75 arrows: 1813 @ 0.8874 spine, and 1816 @ 0.756 spine. Of these two choose the 1816s.

    Now she can shoot the 1816 XX75s. If her draw length grows and/or her draw weight increases, shorten the 1816s to give the desired stiffness. For instance, if next year her draw length has increased to 27'' and her draw weight to 25 lbs cut the 1816s to 28''. Keep referring back to the chart to figure out how to shorten the arrows as she grows. Obviously there will come a point when, for safety's sake, you can't shorten the arrows anymore. Then it's eBay time.

    At 26.25'' she is pushing the limits of the Youth Target arrow groups, so you may wish to go to the T-groups, as in the example above, for longer arrow life.

    Be careful to choose an arrow and assembly method that allows you to remove the points and any inserts without wrecking the arrow so you can cut the arrow down from the business end. E.g., points glued into aluminum arrows with CA glue can be pretty easily removed with the application of heat without harming the arrow. Otherwise you will have to cut the nock end of the arrow and refletch/revane every time you shorten the arrow.

    If she is using a clicker, then you will have less freedom in choosing an arrow length. Some clicker models allow longer arrows than others.

    My daughters are still at the Y1 stage-- They would be at the Y0 stage if there were such a group. They will be shooting their 1214 Jazz arrows for years to come as I have not even begun to shorten them from full length. Fortunately they are fond of purple.

    Be advised: This is advice from a newb (~6 mos.) and is from thinking more than from experience. If a more experienced (or better thinking) archer can find a flaw in this method I would like to know about it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by midwayarcherywi View Post
    How many guys shot 1300's with aluminum arrows outside of the guy who did it first, Darrell Pace.
    Actually, quite a few.

    Aluminums are very much still capable. But for some reason, they are seen as "inadequate" these days.

    It's an "I want" syndrome IMO. Not an "I need."

    John
    Renegade Archer

  15. #15
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    With her 1416's at stock length she is aiming about 6-7 feet above the target and can't use her sight except as a rough reference point with the block all the way down and in. Is she losing velocity due to too much flex?

    Will there be that much of a difference using a stiffer/heavier xx75 shaft? Or even the carbons? It seems that the weight difference between the aluminum and carbon would be a factor at about 3 grams per inch.

    Her horizontal accuracy is pretty good, her shots are all short at 50m but within an 16-18" range side to side (hope that's clear) we just need to get her to 50m for outdoor season. She is young but 5'5" so she is taller than average for her age if that makes any difference. I know we can get a little more out of the bow with a better string but not that much, I don't think.

    Thanks for your help everyone.

    Pete

  16. #16
    agillator, from a 1416 (1684 spine) to a 1816 (756 spine), that's more than half a cut in spine. I'm not the sharpest stick in the paint bucket when it comes to these matters, but to me, something sounds fishy in the Sahara. I may have my eyeballs screwed in bass-ackwards and can't read ebonics, but when I look at Easton's chart, I come up with 1614 (1153 spine). That makes a little more sense that dog just might just hunt. Cook up a few of them bullets, and test how well the drive.

    Todd

  17. #17
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    order a couple different test shafts from lancaster
    GOOD FUN AND GOOD SHOOTING, Ryan.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjurhs View Post
    agillator, from a 1416 (1684 spine) to a 1816 (756 spine), that's more than half a cut in spine. I'm not the sharpest stick in the paint bucket when it comes to these matters, but to me, something sounds fishy in the Sahara. I may have my eyeballs screwed in bass-ackwards and can't read ebonics, but when I look at Easton's chart, I come up with 1614 (1153 spine). That makes a little more sense that dog just might just hunt. Cook up a few of them bullets, and test how well the drive.

    Todd
    atjurhs-

    Like you said, the chart puts her in Group 03. If Cephas is willing to have her shoot 3'' longer than her draw length Group T3 (including 1816 XX75s, 0.756 spine) gives her (approximately) the same flex. If 2'' longer, then T2 (including 1716 XX75s, 0.880 spine) gives her the same flex. If 1'' longer then T1 (1616 XX75's, 1.079 spine) gives her the same flex.

    I suppose I asked for the colorful language by admitting I was a newb.

  19. #19
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    Cephas
    Over 40 years ago, I shot a 27 lb bow, 27 inch arrows, 25 to 27 inch draw while growing (10yrs to 13yrs) and only used one set of 1713 24stx Easton aluminum shafts, 3 inch feathers and the standard nibb point. Shot 530s/600 indoor Fita scores many times. No plunger, single long rod stab, simple pin sight.

    Later got a 32lbs bow, shot 1716s draw 27 to 28, same feathers and nibbs.
    Later got a 35lbs bow, shot 1814s draw 28+, vanes and nibbs these carried me for 5 more years.

    To me it sounds like you should consider 1614s or 1713s if those exist these days.

    And I agree go with the lighter 13/1000 or 14/1000" wall instead of the 16/1000".

    Do not discount the aluminum arrows and if they get bent and banged up or lost you have learned through the experience.

    Good luck

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Aluminums are very much still capable. But for some reason, they are seen as "inadequate" these days. John
    After they've outgrown the Jazz aluminums and certainly when they've upgraded to an ILF riser, I recommend Platinum Plus alluminum arrows to my JOAD kids. I leave the arrows full length and chose stiffer arrows since they tune better than weak spined arrows. You can go at least a row stiffer for recurve and 2 rows stiffer for compound (Genesis doesn't count as a compound IMO). Once your child's form has settled down spend some time bow tuning, it's worth the effort.

    TAO
    USA Archery Level 4-NTS Coach

  21. #21
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    TAO, that's good reasoning. I like it.

    John
    Renegade Archer

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by agillator View Post
    Be advised: This is advice from a newb (~6 mos.) and is from thinking more than from experience. If a more experienced (or better thinking) archer can find a flaw in this method I would like to know about it.
    I'm in the same category, a newb, just my thinking is empirically based, not better, just different

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    TAO, that's good reasoning. I like it.

    John
    Thanks John!
    USA Archery Level 4-NTS Coach

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    TAO, that's good reasoning. I like it.

    John
    Only kind of...

    Cephas is trying to help her get to 50m. She's aiming way above the target with 1416s. So I've no understanding at all how 1716 / 1816s at full length are going to help? That's like shooting almost two arrows compared to the one she's shooting now.

    Agree with the logic, but not that it will answer Cephas problem.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooktonboy View Post
    Only kind of...

    Cephas is trying to help her get to 50m. She's aiming way above the target with 1416s. So I've no understanding at all how 1716 / 1816s at full length are going to help? That's like shooting almost two arrows compared to the one she's shooting now.

    Agree with the logic, but not that it will answer Cephas problem.
    Yes. My post (#14 above) is irrelevant in light of that requirement since it addresses only flex and not arrow weight.

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