March 29th, 2012, 01:16 AM
Legitimate theory or ??
I decided a couple weeks ago to give spot shooting a little more attention and to get a target bow and scope to play with. I was an average 48x shooter in league but oddly I would shoot better in a tourney. I've only shot a couple but my x count was 54 on the first and 57 on the next. I've only shot bhfs because the long bars and elaborate sights just didn't seem appealing to me, but I've decided to go up in class but still keep it simple.
So, I get my target bow and 4x scope and think oh yeah, look out 60x!! First week went okay, 55x...but its a downhill slide since. I thought these longer axled 8+ brace bows were supposed to be "forgiving"...yea right. The issue is that eventually I will throw one anywhere from 4-8" straight up. I actually shot a 299 last week because of it. I like to keep things real simple but a buddy asked me try his 10" stinger with about 8oz's on it. It "seemed" to help a little but that could be in my head. I've since gotten several different bstingers with a variety of weights...no dice.
I'm very theoretical so when a man man posed a theory to me that may have some merit to it, I can't get it out of my head. He asked if this issue started when I got the scope...yes it did. He knows a lot about how I shoot because we've talked many times. I'm one of those guys that if I'm holding low when I pull the trigger, my subconscious somehow takes over and I very slightly push my bow hand out, which kicks the bottom up. I've known I do this and it has never really given me any issues so I didn't worry about it. For anyone that believes you cannot influence the arrow enough to matter once the trigger is pulled, your wrong
Anyways, back to the theory...he thinks that maybe the scope is causing my subconscious to kick my bow hand out 4x as much as before. I didn't know what to think when he said that but it sounds justifiable. I don't think that is the case but I can't just over look it. Just so you know, this is with 2 different target bows and it happens the same on both of them.
I originally only wanted to try a scope to use as a tool to see if I could tell what I'm doing at the shot so that I could pick up those last few x's...now it seems it has given me a whole new problem!
Any info is welcome...I don't even want to shoot league this week and am ready to count my losses and go back to bhfs..HELP!!
March 29th, 2012, 02:12 AM
Without knowing a whole lot more about how you shoot, it will be very hard to help you, but lets give it a shot...first of all this forum will time out quickly, so if you'd like use my email, firstname.lastname@example.org and I'll see what we can do to figure out what the root of the problem is...
You'll first have to describe to me what you are doing currently, using a pin to aim with, where you focus on the pin or on the target where you want the arrow to hit, and then describe your release method, do you pull a trigger consciously and intentionally or do you incorporate a suprise release where you just wholly focus on aiming and let the shot go off as a surprise release.
With some of this information we can figure out what you are doing and what to do to correct it...but getting at the root of the problem is the correct method in any case, covering it up with longer stabilizers is not the way to go...sorting out and solving the root cause first, and then utilizing whatever methods you'd like to take the game up a level is all very achievable...send me some info and we'll get to sorting this out for you...Cheers, Ryan
I hate being wrong more than I like being right...
Elite Pure, Conquest-4, DXT, W&W ProAccent Recurve
Truspot scopes, Black Eagle Deep Impacts, Easton X10 Protours, X10, Fatboy, Axis & FMJ
March 29th, 2012, 07:39 AM
As Ryan posted, without more information and seeing you shoot, we can't be too specific. However, the problem you describe is not unusual when an archer goes from pin to scope or gets a stronger lens for their scope. The movement that you see is greater than before, so a little tension creeps into your form as you try to hold hold steadier. You start to fight the float instead of relaxing into it.
You likely don't have any more movement than before, but you see more movement and subconsciously react proportionately more than with your BHFS sight.
The usual solution is to learn to accept the float and not fight it. A couple of great shooters told me that when they are shooting their best, they don't notice the float. They are so focused on the center of the X that the float goes away as far as what they are seeing. This is easy to say, but hard to do. It usually takes a lot of time since you are retraining your subconscious.
Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.
March 29th, 2012, 12:02 PM
I'm gonna try to take a video of me shooting today. I've been meaning to do this for a while now just so I can try to adjust something that may be obvious. Nobody tells me I need to do this or that when I'm shooting but I'm sure nobody wants to try to fix something that doesn't appear broken.
I'm not sure how to describe how I aim...put the pin on x and pull the trigger. I like to go from right to left and when the pin is in I pull the trigger. I shoot with a wrist strap style release and I'm a proud trigger puncher But with these new heavily weighted stabs I'm not able to do my routine so now I just try to hold on target. I've experimented with starting high and trying to slowly go low but I'm not happy with the results.
The more I research the more I'm understanding that if I change from my normal routine, I'm gonna have to give myself some time to adapt. Not sure if I like that but I'll give it a bit more time. I'm gonna shoot today without glass on the tour and see where that takes me. I can see the x okay without it and I know now what glass appears to do to me. Its really the vegas face that gets me..not sure if its the green pin I use that is somehow getting soaked into the red and yellow background or what but I that was my real reason for trying glass. I would love to go to vegas but if I can't knock down 60x on a 5 spot on a regular basis I just don't see the point.
Thanks for the info fella's, every little bit helps. Please don't shy away from telling me if this sounds like a case of TP starting up...I can take it
March 29th, 2012, 09:54 PM
Well I wasn't able to film myself but I took the lens out and bada bing..not once did I throw one. I'm gonna have to say it was definitely the glass.
This week is the first for scoring in league so I guess if I'm gonna get serious I'll have to wait until 3 weeks to try to adjust my subconscious or actually to correct my follow through with glass. Has anyone had or seen this issue before, surely I'm not the first
March 30th, 2012, 10:36 AM
In my experience every archer that either changed from pins to magnified scope or increased the magnification of their lens has had this issue. At least to one degree or the other. I'm sure that there are cases of it not happening, but I haven't seen it.
How do you plan to go about reprogramming?
April 4th, 2012, 10:25 PM
Thats kind of good to hear Allen but I personally haven't witnessed or heard about this until it became my own issue.
As for reprogramming, for myself I think it would be best to start by just holding on the x as long as I can and gradually start to fire a few off here and there. My goal to begin with isn't to hit the x but just get used to my pin being on it. I haven't read anything yet about solutions to these sort of scenarios but this sounds like one way to begin?? I've heard of blank bailing which I take is a way to condition a person to be consistent on each release but I don't feel that is my best bet. I need my eyes to see the pin on the x and and for my bow hand not to move...simply
April 6th, 2012, 12:40 PM
you might try taking out the post[pin] and go to a circle on the glass this lets the mind focus on the x not the pin. most of the time i see people with this problem and allen is right most will have a issue when changing to a higher magnification.. what happens is you could not hold the bow dead still with a low mag. so you buy a higher mag. lens and BOOM this freaks out the subconscious...because your bouncing all over the x...........there is NO person on earth who can hold a perfect sight pic, and keep it there..but your mind can...
April 6th, 2012, 03:21 PM
Exactly right Mike! This is one of the best kept secrets of accurate archery. Not because it's not taught, but because most won't believe it.
Originally Posted by mike 66
I think you have a better handle on this than almost anyone I've had a similar conversation with. The draw and aim without firing is an excellent tool to improve your control over your shot. And as high as my opinion of the blank bale is, I agree that it's not the best tool for this aiming problem. The only change that I would suggest is that you start close with large targets and gradually work back. Put up a paper plate at about 10 yards. If you can keep your shot together for three days, move back a couple of yards. Keep going like this until you hit about 30 yards and then begin reducing the size of the target. Again gradually.
Originally Posted by LUCKYDUX
You seem to already have had some good coaching. Anyone we know?
Hope this helps,
April 8th, 2012, 06:22 PM
Well now your just trying to give me a big head I don't know any coaches and besides, you guys are all I need
Physics is a strong suit of mine and I've always been very coordinated so archery seems to work out well for me. One thing I haven't heard or read that I would suggest to anyone thats looking for more stability is to do core exercises. I've got a very bad lower back and the Dr. has me do stretches to keep it strong and I strongly feel that my stability comes from those. I bet most folks that have been to the chiro know exactly the exercises I'm talking about.
This is the last week of league and we're going to meet up and shoot the last round together because only a couple x's separate the 1st-3rd. It will be some good practice under pressure so I'm looking forward to it. After that its back to the lenses to see what happens. I'm sure I'll be putting some of the advice given a whirl but regardless I'll be updating here. I'll will certainly be checking out those lenses with a circle on them.
Thanks again everyone