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Thread: Jesus vs. Scientists: Who's Better at Miracles?

  1. #876
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    Your analogy is a little off base - isn't it?

    A lion is not, nor has ever claimed to be, omnipotent. By this I mean that they do not understand their actions - they are simply seeking a way to eat, sleep, and have sex. No one is claiming that lions have forethought of action. And that represents a HUGE difference.
    Failed to understand the analogy.
    we aren't discussing omnipotence. The lion isn't called wicked because it's doing what it does. Yet you would call a human wicked for following the same natural processes that you believe got you to where you are. If you believe you are a product of the same process as the lion then how is anything humans do.......wicked?

    How can you assert "morality" when there is no such standard in the natural world?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    God does not need to eat to live (apparently); has no need for sleep; and apparently is against sex (unless your intention is procreation). God is supposedly omnipotent - which means that he should be able to understand the results or ramifications of his actions - unlike a lion. The only thing God is doing is exacting vengaence because someone was not worshipping him. Evil, arrogant, and egotistical.

    Killing everyone for the actions of a few is immoral - no matter how you look at it. And the bible clearly states this is what happened. Stating that he has called the children home to a better place by murdering them in a vicious way - Wow.
    How is it immoral? I've been killing miller moths for a month now for no other reason than they are in my house. My son is basically killing them as a form of entertainment(he likes to put them in his little terrarium & sometimes gets carried away), our dog killed a bird simply cause he actually got a hold of one. I killed a particular deer because of it's antlers. I hunt for sport & it happens to provide some food. Darwin espoused that black people ought to be exterminated cause they are lower animals, his teaching was furthered by his cousin & prevalent in the text books used in the scopes trial(the evolutionary ones). Notice, without an exception that I've seen, that the model of the rise of man starts with an apish creature rising to a hominid of darkened(black) tone ending in a white man?

    But again since when do you call the lion wicked? one that murders for the sake of eliminating any perceived competition & is not ever satisfied with what it has but rather seeks what it doesn't yet have.

    Actually the bible doesn't claim such a thing, in fact the bible asserts otherwise; read the account of Lot or Sodom & Gomorrah. In the accounts that 8750 cited it's actually fairly clear that the entire culture was one of evil & perpetuated evil. In the flood account we are told that every thought of every person was evil all - the - time accept for Noah.

    You are attempting to make judgement calls based on mans understanding & law, then apply that to God using Gods account. If you want to argue against God that's quite alright, however if we are going to engage I will insist on bringing in the bible rather than speculation not derived from the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    God granted us free will - but when we exercise that free will we are deemed evil and killed - and then sent to hell for all eternity. Our wives and children are then murdered as well - and left in limbo. I am so glad I no longer believe this stuff. From the outside looking in - the contortions you make for your God are amazing. Only a true believer could justify murder of his own children because they strayed from some stated ideal. And that is EXACTLY what you just did. It sickens me to hear another human do that.
    We are a product of evolution yet when we act on that process I am considered in violation of some man made law & sent to jail at the whims of men. We are free to do what we will yet will not only be removed from society but condemned to death for exercising our freedom.
    You are attempting to say on the one hand there are no moral standards yet you kick against God, someone you don't even believe in, for violating your sense of morality. Yet your very sense of morality is derived from the bible whether indirectly or not. You do not live & judge by the natural process you claim to have given your rise.

    At the same time you also fail to actually understand, nor seem to even seek to understand, the very scripture you are espousing to prove God's lack of morality & those that follow Him. I can understand not liking what scripture has to say yet if we are going to argue then we ought to at least lay all of the relevant text on the table. What's relevant in this case is that God created everything, is sovereign over everything, that sovereign is sovereign whether we like it or not, that we are eternal- our existence in this place is temporary, we all physically die, and we are all accountable to God.


    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    Here is a little story:

    There was a king who had a wonderful kingdom full of his very own children and grand children and great grand children, and etc. After a while, the king notices that the children in one small part of the kingdom were troubling him and paying homage to a different king. So he decides that he is not only going to murder them - but all of their children and wives as well. His vengeance is intended to serve as nothing more than a warning for all of his other descendants.
    Your story fails in the first sentence. there was a king (whom did not create anything & only has the authority granted to him by God & the people the king serves. if he has the power to grant rights he has the power to take them. unless there are rights he doesn't have authority to give nor take. Where did those rights come from? what makes them rights that another person is in some moral violation if he alleviates you of them?).
    God can't murder as He is sovereign & as such paying homage(which is really missing the mark as the guilty parties aren't found guilty of some thought crime, they acted on their homage with evil behavior) to another is in violation of His law, as such one is not innocent- they are guilty.

    The lesson of the vengeance you hint at was to stop the evil perpetuated by the guilty party, to prevent the evil from infecting the rest of His people & to be an example. So describes the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    I don't know any normal human being that would state that this is anything other than a vile and EVIL action on the part of the king.
    I don't either as most human beings recognize and defer to an absolute moral standard.
    My question is if there are no absolutes then how is the kings actions vile and evil. We see this everyday in the natural world that you claim has given us rise. In fact we are loath to label other peoples evil & condemn actions you describe because we aren't of nor understand their "culture".

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    Why is it OK when you substitute "God" for "King"?

    Because some ancient book says so?
    Because there is a very succinct difference. Man, no matter how great, didn't create anything. We are here by his authority & will be gone by his authority. & yes some ancient book accounts this.

    How is it that you vilify either of these persons when the book you read from claims all is good or ok, even the actions of your king, since he is nothing more than a product of natural processes?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    You need much better justification than that - you would do better on your own than what that book is teaching you. Need proof - think about this next paragraph:

    I believe that modern people are much more ethical than what has been described of God in the bible. Slavery is no more. Treating women badly as a cultural norm - no more. Killing people because they have a different relgion than you - not allowed. Killing a child because he is backtalking - not allowed. Stoning women because they aren't a virgin (even if they lied and told you they were) - not allowed EXCEPT in islamic countries (As an aside - aren't you horrified that religion has led to this?). Valueing a human life at 2 shillings - stupid at best.

    It was obviously NOT the bible which led modern man to these conclusions and the resultant cultural changes - rather it is society slowly freeing itself from this mysticism called religion. And there is nothing you religous people can do about it - you have lost the battle and you don't even know it.
    This is the humanism that you are espousing:
    http://creation.com/christian-vs-evo...ary-atrocities
    In America, the leading school biology textbook was George Hunter’s A Civic Biology. The famous Scopes Trial was about the atheistic ACLU’s defending the right to teach from this book. This book was ardently eugenicist:

    “If such people were lower animals, we would probably kill them off to prevent them from spreading. Humanity will not allow this, but we do have the remedy of separating the sexes in asylums or other places and in various ways preventing intermarriage and the possibilities of perpetuating such a low and degenerate race. Remedies of this sort have been tried successfully in Europe and are now meeting with success in this country.”

    The book also blatantly taught white supremacy:

    “At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the others in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, in structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.”

    Darwin himself, see his words in The Descent of Man:

    At some future period … the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous [Having or suggesting human form and appearance] apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope … the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.
    Tesla & Dawkins are self admitted eugenicists. there are posters on this very forum that espouse eugenics & use the "human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God." as their justification.

    So why do you stand in the way of these humanistic goals?

    Why? because of this:
    http://m.theage.com.au/opinion/polit...#ixzz1sOCZN98f
    Yet virtually all the secular ideas that non-believers value have Christian origins. To pretend otherwise is to toss the substance of those ideas away.

    It was theologians and religiously minded philosophers who developed the concepts of individual and human rights. Same with progress, reason and equality before the law: it is fantasy to suggest these values emerged out of thin air once people started questioning God.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    Do you wish to state that slavery, mysogeny, and intolerance are ethical and good for society? Really?
    No, which is why I don't believe in evolution nor it's logical & stated out-workings.

    And again you display nicely the misunderstanding you have of scripture seemingly in it's entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonArcher View Post
    My nightly "prayer" is that we move beyond religion to humanism. How is that for an unorthodox statement?

    And for you guys who don't know and won't look it up:

    Humanism

    Philosophy . a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God.

    So please don't call me an atheist anymore - I am a humanist.
    And my prayer is that following "natural" instincts to derive right & wrong is never acceptable.
    Walk Your Talk

  2. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    You've definitely picked a tough topic. The basic nut shell answer is that what these people or cultures practiced was evil in the sight of God. There are accounts of them sacrificing their children to their gods, living in a manner counter to Gods design & of course denying God all together; much like Pharaoh of Egypt.
    Deut 20:18 ".....Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God”

    The punishment and result of any & all sin is death. It's not a question of what did they do to deserve to be killed rather according to the standards of perfection what have they done to not deserve death? God dispenses mercy as He see's fit to whom He decides. The biggest key to receiving mercy is to be in relationship with God. The culture He ordered destroyed, to include the children & babies, was not in relationship with Him. This is a case of breaking the law, all of them in this case, & being held accountable. I know that doesn't make the chewing any easier but them's the facts as God lays them out.

    I also see that you are hung up on the here and now rather the eternal that is God's perspective. It's understandable as it's a fairly difficult concept to understand much less live out. Every christian struggles with this much less someone that doesn't even ascribe to that knowledge.
    Again if you read the account & take into account the bible we also see that God very likely won't condemn a baby to eternal death(remember the concept of Him being just & merciful. even if you don't believe it, that is the God the bible describes- these are the attributes we are discussing since we are discussing the God of the bible.) God the creator of those babies and people has decided they are to go "back to Him", whatever that looks like, regardless He has decided this chapter of their life is over. As the Creator that's His call to make whether I agree with Him or not. The word we are looking for is sovereign.

    This is a fairly quick read that gives a pretty good synopsis of the issue.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Canaanit...rmination.html
    I did not read the link, but i like this post of yours the most so far. And I can almost agree with you on some key points, like eternity. Eternity=infinity and the quetion when dealing with such is convergence or divergence. I think your belief is that all will converge with God as the universe approaches infinity. I could buy that. But what is the oint of this life then? Why would god create a world of sin, just to swallow it up in the end? And if there is convergence, How do you trust God isnt going to through you back into the jungle for amusement?

    My intent is to tackle the paradox of a vengful, murdering God that teaches forgiveness and mercy. This is a divergence as the universe approaches infinity. If the negative eventually crosses zero and becomes positive, then there is a point where God is wrong. Yet for god to be god it mest never be wrong. Yet for convergence god must be wrong. Therefore, unless we accept divergence, god must be evil and will always be evil. Then there is convergence in evil. Which wxplains lying about being mercyful and just. Lying to gain followers is acceptable in the eyes of the wicked. The universe seems to converge at infinity, eternity, in the house of the lord. The house of evil.

  3. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    Failed to understand the analogy.
    we aren't discussing omnipotence. The lion isn't called wicked because it's doing what it does. Yet you would call a human wicked for following the same natural processes that you believe got you to where you are. If you believe you are a product of the same process as the lion then how is anything humans do.......wicked?

    How can you assert "morality" when there is no such standard in the natural world?


    How is it immoral? I've been killing miller moths for a month now for no other reason than they are in my house. My son is basically killing them as a form of entertainment(he likes to put them in his little terrarium & sometimes gets carried away), our dog killed a bird simply cause he actually got a hold of one. I killed a particular deer because of it's antlers. I hunt for sport & it happens to provide some food. Darwin espoused that black people ought to be exterminated cause they are lower animals, his teaching was furthered by his cousin & prevalent in the text books used in the scopes trial(the evolutionary ones). Notice, without an exception that I've seen, that the model of the rise of man starts with an apish creature rising to a hominid of darkened(black) tone ending in a white man?

    But again since when do you call the lion wicked? one that murders for the sake of eliminating any perceived competition & is not ever satisfied with what it has but rather seeks what it doesn't yet have.

    Actually the bible doesn't claim such a thing, in fact the bible asserts otherwise; read the account of Lot or Sodom & Gomorrah. In the accounts that 8750 cited it's actually fairly clear that the entire culture was one of evil & perpetuated evil. In the flood account we are told that every thought of every person was evil all - the - time accept for Noah.

    You are attempting to make judgement calls based on mans understanding & law, then apply that to God using Gods account. If you want to argue against God that's quite alright, however if we are going to engage I will insist on bringing in the bible rather than speculation not derived from the bible.


    We are a product of evolution yet when we act on that process I am considered in violation of some man made law & sent to jail at the whims of men. We are free to do what we will yet will not only be removed from society but condemned to death for exercising our freedom.
    You are attempting to say on the one hand there are no moral standards yet you kick against God, someone you don't even believe in, for violating your sense of morality. Yet your very sense of morality is derived from the bible whether indirectly or not. You do not live & judge by the natural process you claim to have given your rise.

    At the same time you also fail to actually understand, nor seem to even seek to understand, the very scripture you are espousing to prove God's lack of morality & those that follow Him. I can understand not liking what scripture has to say yet if we are going to argue then we ought to at least lay all of the relevant text on the table. What's relevant in this case is that God created everything, is sovereign over everything, that sovereign is sovereign whether we like it or not, that we are eternal- our existence in this place is temporary, we all physically die, and we are all accountable to God.



    Your story fails in the first sentence. there was a king (whom did not create anything & only has the authority granted to him by God & the people the king serves. if he has the power to grant rights he has the power to take them. unless there are rights he doesn't have authority to give nor take. Where did those rights come from? what makes them rights that another person is in some moral violation if he alleviates you of them?).
    God can't murder as He is sovereign & as such paying homage(which is really missing the mark as the guilty parties aren't found guilty of some thought crime, they acted on their homage with evil behavior) to another is in violation of His law, as such one is not innocent- they are guilty.

    The lesson of the vengeance you hint at was to stop the evil perpetuated by the guilty party, to prevent the evil from infecting the rest of His people & to be an example. So describes the text.


    I don't either as most human beings recognize and defer to an absolute moral standard.
    My question is if there are no absolutes then how is the kings actions vile and evil. We see this everyday in the natural world that you claim has given us rise. In fact we are loath to label other peoples evil & condemn actions you describe because we aren't of nor understand their "culture".


    Because there is a very succinct difference. Man, no matter how great, didn't create anything. We are here by his authority & will be gone by his authority. & yes some ancient book accounts this.

    How is it that you vilify either of these persons when the book you read from claims all is good or ok, even the actions of your king, since he is nothing more than a product of natural processes?




    This is the humanism that you are espousing:

    Tesla & Dawkins are self admitted eugenicists. there are posters on this very forum that espouse eugenics & use the "human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God." as their justification.

    So why do you stand in the way of these humanistic goals?

    Why? because of this:



    No, which is why I don't believe in evolution nor it's logical & stated out-workings.

    And again you display nicely the misunderstanding you have of scripture seemingly in it's entirety.



    And my prayer is that following "natural" instincts to derive right & wrong is never acceptable.
    Best post of the day. thanks cobo.
    if a woman starts hitting me and won't stop , she's gonna get her lips tapped.


  4. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by anonarcher View Post
    your analogy is a little off base - isn't it?

    Killing everyone for the actions of a few is immoral - no matter how you look at it. And the bible clearly states this is what happened. Stating that he has called the children home to a better place by murdering them in a vicious way - wow.

    (bible says for all have sinned and come short of the glory of god,doesnt say a few.it is believed that children through bible teachings are exempt from hell.)
    god granted us free will - but when we exercise that free will we are deemed evil and killed - and then sent to hell for all eternity. Our wives and children are then murdered as well - and left in limbo.
    Here is a little story:

    There was a king who had a wonderful kingdom full of his very own children and grand children and great grand children, and etc. After a while, the king notices that the children in one small part of the kingdom were troubling him and paying homage to a different king. So he decides that he is not only going to murder them - but all of their children and wives as well. His vengeance is intended to serve as nothing more than a warning for all of his other descendants.

    I don't know any normal human being that would state that this is anything other than a vile and evil action on the part of the king.

    Why is it ok when you substitute "god" for "king"?
    (heres another story: There was a government/king that said it is wrong to murder and if you do there will be a predetermined punishment,and if you steal,lie under oath,vandalize,molest kids,speed,dont wear a seat belt and thousands of pages of these laws they all have predetermined punishments. How dare this vile and evil governtment enforce these laws. It must be arrogant and egotistical,and to top it all off they gave their citizens free will to chose to obey these laws or not. I say down with this government.we shouldnt be allowed free will ohhh wait a minnute,thats what your side believes,i cant even handle the descision if i should have a 32 oz soda so that right will be taken away. Icant decide what to do with my money so the left will take it and decide for me.)
    i believe that modern people are much more ethical than what has been described of god in the bible. Slavery is no more. Treating women badly as a cultural norm - no more. Killing people because they have a different relgion than you - not allowed. Killing a child because he is backtalking - not allowed. Stoning women because they aren't a virgin (even if they lied and told you they were) - not allowed except in islamic countries (as an aside - aren't you horrified that religion has led to this?). Valueing a human life at 2 shillings - stupid at best.

    It was obviously not the bible which led modern man to these conclusions and the resultant cultural changes - rather it is society slowly freeing itself from this mysticism called religion. And there is nothing you religous people can do about it - you have lost the battle and you don't even know it.
    (not sure what you mean by modern,modern to me means current,not old. Think you mean"civilized" cause a good chunk of the world still does everything you just listed. Its amazing cause this "civilized" country was founded on the beliefs your trashing.its almost like your arguing our side. Your side believes nothing is wrong,killing babies before they are born,maybe cause it was the wrong sex,and with the arguments used for being gay the same arguments can be used for being a petafile. )

    do you wish to state that slavery, mysogeny, and intolerance are ethical and good for society? Really?
    (who said that?)
    my nightly "prayer" is that we move beyond religion to humanism. How is that for an unorthodox statement?

    And for you guys who don't know and won't look it up:

    humanism

    philosophy . A variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in god.

    so please don't call me an atheist anymore - i am a humanist.
    (thats just dumb. So you do believe in god? If not your an athiest. Your a athiest and a humanist. Please dont call me a hunter,call me a food provider)

  5. #880
    Sry thought I had what I said in bold,and its not,its in ( ) im a slow typer so not redoing

  6. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anynamewilldo View Post
    (thats just dumb. So you do believe in god? If not your an athiest. Your a athiest and a humanist. Please dont call me a hunter,call me a food provider)
    Being an atheist only highlights what he doesn't believe. Nobody ever identifies themselves with what they don't believe. Are you an a-unicornist? Humanist would describe what he does believe, just as theist would.
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  7. #882
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    Failed to understand the analogy.
    we aren't discussing omnipotence. The lion isn't called wicked because it's doing what it does. Yet you would call a human wicked for following the same natural processes that you believe got you to where you are. If you believe you are a product of the same process as the lion then how is anything humans do.......wicked?

    How can you assert "morality" when there is no such standard in the natural world?

    I mean after all we came form them beast
    right?
    <EVIDENCE OF GOD><
    ......../Jesus\........
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  8. #883
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKES View Post
    Failed to understand the analogy.
    we aren't discussing omnipotence. The lion isn't called wicked because it's doing what it does. Yet you would call a human wicked for following the same natural processes that you believe got you to where you are. If you believe you are a product of the same process as the lion then how is anything humans do.......wicked?

    How can you assert "morality" when there is no such standard in the natural world?

    I mean after all we came form them beast
    right?
    I guess it depends.

    Are you a social creature or not a social creature? Social creatures all live by an unwritten law, like piranhas not eating one another. Even fish.

    Are you a sentient and intelligent creature? One that can use reason, thought and discussion to arrive at rules for living with one another? If so then you'll live well and have a good moral code.

    I'd say, and you'd probably agree, that a moral code arrived at through thought and discussion is better than one written in an old book. Because, whether you realize it or not, we currently live in a moral code just like that and NOT one from an old book.
    Sent via my 1918 Bell hand crank phone

  9. #884
    People that say they have a moral code that is self evident don't really have any kind of moral code. They practice a self serving code of ethics that favors expediency and instant gratification.

    The benefit of having an actual moral code is having a doctrine that can help you make sound decisions when the answer isn't obvious or more difficult to follow. It also gives you support in the sense that you have something you can be held accountable to by like minded people.

  10. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBubba View Post
    People that say they have a moral code that is self evident don't really have any kind of moral code. They practice a self serving code of ethics that favors expediency and instant gratification.

    The benefit of having an actual moral code is having a doctrine that can help you make sound decisions when the answer isn't obvious or more difficult to follow. It also gives you support in the sense that you have something you can be held accountable to by like minded people.
    You just LOVE making odd and assenine statements, don't you? No proof. No supporting evidence. Just blatant silliness.

    We actually live in a moral system very different from what's laid out in the Christian Bible. Explain that. Can you? Hmmmm?
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  11. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    You just LOVE making odd and assenine statements, don't you? No proof. No supporting evidence. Just blatant silliness.

    We actually live in a moral system very different from what's laid out in the Christian Bible. Explain that. Can you? Hmmmm?
    If you have a moral system then tell us what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    There has to be testable evidence left. If not your god is a malevolent, lying, dishonest thing. So is he? Or not? Is he a prankster above all others? I'd say he just doesn't exist, since that's the most sensible conclusion to come to.
    Can you prove that he doesn't exist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnsie View Post
    Can you prove that he doesn't exist?
    Shift the burden of proof much?

    See, this is how it works. I am told a god exists. OK? Or even a bigfoot, it doesn't matter. At this point am I forced to believe or do I ask for proof or evidence for the existence of this god or bigfoot?

    Get it?

    Those making the positive claim bear the burden of proof. So bring me evidence that a god, ANY GOD, exists and I'll be glad to accept it. I honestly would. And disbelief is the default position.
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  14. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBubba View Post
    If you have a moral system then tell us what it is.
    "Don't be a dickhead"......there, all in one commandment.
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  15. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    "Don't be a dickhead"......there, all in one commandment.
    It turns out what you mocked then was actually the truth then. You don't have a moral system. All you have are insults and vulgarities. This philosophy will fail you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBubba View Post
    It turns out what you mocked then was actually the truth then. You don't have a moral system. All you have are insults and vulgarities. This philosophy will fail you.
    Then you're just wrong, Zen.

    I am 42 years old and it's served me quite well. Nobody who knows me will say I'm anything but a nice and respectable person. And I actually care about others. Too much at times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    "Don't be a dickhead"......there, all in one commandment.
    Woah, hoah, woah...what ever happened to "Be excellent to each other"?
    <evidence><
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbow View Post
    Woah, hoah, woah...what ever happened to "Be excellent to each other"?
    Yeah, I guess that works, too.
    Sent via my 1918 Bell hand crank phone

  19. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    You just LOVE making odd and assenine statements, don't you? No proof. No supporting evidence. Just blatant silliness.

    We actually live in a moral system very different from what's laid out in the Christian Bible. Explain that. Can you? Hmmmm?
    http://m.theage.com.au/opinion/polit...#ixzz1sOCZN98f
    Yet virtually all the secular ideas that non-believers value have Christian origins. To pretend otherwise is to toss the substance of those ideas away.

    It was theologians and religiously minded philosophers who developed the concepts of individual and human rights. Same with progress, reason and equality before the law: it is fantasy to suggest these values emerged out of thin air once people started questioning God.

    Of course, it could not be otherwise. The modern world is shaped by 3000 years of philosophical evolution. And for half that time the dominant moral philosophy in the Western world has been a Christian one. For most of our history, all the great thinkers have been religious.

    So our secular liberalism will inevitably owe a huge amount to its Christian origins.

    Ideas do not exist in a vacuum. If we imagine they were invented yesterday, they will be easy to discard tomorrow. So why are modern atheist agitators so eager to shed Western civilisation's Christian legacy? Their reasoning - that atheism is attractive not only because it's accurate but because religion is morally bad - ironically resembles the simplistic good-versus-evil propaganda of history's most dangerous religious fanatics.
    Walk Your Talk

  20. #895
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    The problem with your post, CoBo, is that in the last 150 years (at least) we've been moving farther and farther from what is outlined in the Christian Bible. It doesn't matter what happened during the Dark Ages, does it? Know what the Dark Ages was, CoBo? It's where Christians behaved like today's Taliban for at least 700 years. That's your baggage to deal with, too, and it's why your set of morals was discarded and a newer set, one derived from rational thought and discussion, was devised.
    Sent via my 1918 Bell hand crank phone

  21. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Buster of Xs View Post
    Being an atheist only highlights what he doesn't believe. Nobody ever identifies themselves with what they don't believe. Are you an a-unicornist? Humanist would describe what he does believe, just as theist would.
    If you read whats in the box I add in ( ) with lots of my own thoughts. However when I posted it it didnt come out as I typed and inserted so it all runs in with what he said

  22. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anynamewilldo View Post
    If you read whats in the box I add in ( ) with lots of my own thoughts. However when I posted it it didnt come out as I typed and inserted so it all runs in with what he said
    I see. You know what, though? Even though I'm a non-believer I'd agree with some of those thoughts. The biggest I'd disagree with is the "god" thing. I believe that one's belief in something should be proportional to the evidence they have to support that belief. It just makes sense, right? And there's not a shred of evidence any god exists, so I'll reserve that belief until someone can shed some evidence on it.
    Sent via my 1918 Bell hand crank phone

  23. #898
    His post in how he presented it, assumed there was a GOD and he rejected that God could be good in his view point. I know he was saying there was no God but was trying to humor us and show us how stupid we are to believe the Bible. I was not arguing the existance or non existance of God but showing how most non-believers are misinterpeting the Bible. Example: year or two ago someone posted a link to Pen and Teller trashing the Bible. I will admit I didnt not go and search out every Penn and Teller video and try to disput it. However I flat out proved they were wrong on 4-5 things I think it was that they claimed the Bible said. After claiming they werent twisting the Bible they then said all kind of things without using quotes and they were wrong. The 5th thing couldnt be proved either way and was stupid.

  24. #899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anynamewilldo View Post
    His post in how he presented it, assumed there was a GOD and he rejected that God could be good in his view point. I know he was saying there was no God but was trying to humor us and show us how stupid we are to believe the Bible. I was not arguing the existance or non existance of God but showing how most non-believers are misinterpeting the Bible. Example: year or two ago someone posted a link to Pen and Teller trashing the Bible. I will admit I didnt not go and search out every Penn and Teller video and try to disput it. However I flat out proved they were wrong on 4-5 things I think it was that they claimed the Bible said. After claiming they werent twisting the Bible they then said all kind of things without using quotes and they were wrong. The 5th thing couldnt be proved either way and was stupid.
    Gotcha'. But after re-reading Anonarcher's post I can't see where he was misrepresenting what the Bible actually says.
    Sent via my 1918 Bell hand crank phone

  25. #900
    The Bible says that God is not willing that any should parish. I propose God has no "choice" in people going to Heaven or Hell. Simple:"wages of sin is death"(KJV),God paid that "wage" debt with the life of His Son and all you have to do is take His gift. Sorry Hes a jerk and evil for sacraficing his Son for the world. I think we all agree there should puishment for criminals and this is along the same lines except God tries to offer a pardon and many refuse it cause the terms are to turn away from the "criminal" ways.

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