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Thread: Back tension

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Casto Jr View Post
    it's the only thing I concentrate on
    I don't think about it at all during my shot sequence, I don't break it down to that degree. I trust in my ability rather checking each step along the way which drives me nuts, it just takes the fun out of it and I may as well be shooting a compound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowsage View Post
    the importance of the bow arm
    Often forgotten but most important.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bowsage View Post
    I'll quote a few comments made from a professional archery instructor of over a half a century; " Archers would be better served if they paid more attention to maintaining the bow arm during and after the shot"" A strong bow arm is one that does not collapse, drop. until the arrow has hit the target. Follow through also applies to the string hand". After the release, bring your string hand back to rest on your shoulder.It's a small tip that pays off big by helping you maintain proper alignment with the target during and after the shot. This also helps you keep consistent back tension without thinking about it."

    I find it really interesting he never has mentioned to me "back tension" in the numerous lessons I have had from him. But he certainly talked about the importance of the bow arm and string hand. Hence I've never really thought about it only heard about it. Now, I like his simple approach!
    Ahhhhhh...another perfect example of how it truly is 'different strokes for different folks'!

    Archery is not a one size fits all!

    What works for one archer may not work for another.

    The key is finding what works for each one of us.

    For some archers...it can be the bow arm...for others...it can be back tension.

    Can advice regarding the bow arm be good advice?

    ABSOLUTELY!!!

    Can advice regarding back tension be good advice?

    ABSOLUTELY!!!

    It's ultimately dependent upon the specific archer and what they are struggling with.

    Ray

  3. #28
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    Go to the coach's corner forum, theres a good example there from the da white shoe, i think, under back tension relese,

  4. #29
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    I got the concept under control after reading the books Core Archery by Larry Wise and Idiot Proof Archery by Bernie Pellerite. After reading the books I just took time off from trying to hit a target and moved to about 3Y from the butt and just focussed on trying to feel what was described in the books until I got the technique to work. THereafter I tried to spend as much time as possible doing blind butt shooting to get the technique printed firmly into my form ... I should have spent more time on that though.

    It may also be easier to make a string loop simulating your bow at full draw and just first playing with that and trying to feel what it is supposed to feel like ... get to "full draw", try and relax your release arm and hand as much as possible while maintaining the proper grip on the release and then slowly try and shift the release side shoulder blade closer to your spine by only using the muscles in your back ... don't worry which ones you use as I am sure your body will know which are the correct ones.

    If the release doesn't fire, recheck your form, grip on and setting of the release and try again. I am sure you will "get it" quite soon.

    Whatever you do, don't quit ... it is very worth it learning the correct technique.

  5. #30
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X49xdu1wGdo

    This might help as I think it's explained quite well. I have to say just bringing you elbow around doesn't mean you have correct back tension and it's not really a good word, I like to call it Scapula motion, front shoulder is just as important as the drawing shoulder, if it's not set properly you wont get the Scapula to fininsh in the right position to transfer load and continue rotation for a good solid shot conclusion.

    Formaster is a good tool but you really need a coach to make sure your front shoulder is set correctly, another method without a bow is to extend bowarm out with relaxed low shoulder hold drawing hand around 4" out from chest at height, then bring hand into the chest and put slight pressure into the chest, as youre bringing your hand into chest you should feel the Scapula rotate and as you add pressure you should feel it lock into position, that is the "back tension" part people are always talking about but I feel the real key is getting the Scapula movement/rotation setup right.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG_hv...feature=relmfu

    This the Korean coach Kim who I trained with he has a very hands on approach but you get the correct feeling almost straight away, a one hour session with a qualified coach could save you months of trail and error or the fact that you are doing it wrong all the time but dont know.

  6. #31
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    Steve, I'm concerned about the bow arm shoulder movement. I feel the right scapula movement as the elbow comes around to line up with the arrow but I don;t feel the left so much. What needs to be done to make the two move toward each other?
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  7. #32
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    Dave -

    The string side scapula has to move inward during the draw, kinda hard for that not to happen. Of course it's possible, people can get very creative to do things incorrectly. At anchor the scapula's inward movement is or should be imperceptible. If back tension was maintained AFTER the release (when it counts), an observer will see the scapula move further medially (towards the spine). That's what causes the snap back of the string arm. Having an educated pair of eyes watching you really makes a difference.

    With a lot males I've taught, there's so much tension in the shoulder girdle, it can take months to years to free it up enough to work that way. Most women don't have the problem and get it a lot sooner.

    A few other thoughts. Pinching the shoulder blades together isn't (IMHO) the brightest think to do. That can lead to an uncontrolled explosion and destroy any semblance of a proper follow-through.

    Regarding Bowsage's comments about a "strong bow arm and string hand": Well, that's true, of course, but the only way of achieving that is by the proper control of back tension. You can't muscle a bow arm, not even with the lightest bow made. Fact is that on release, the bow is stronger, faster and smarter than the shooter. Any attempts at controlling it typically end badly.

    BTW - I rarely mention the term back tension to new(er) students. If I've done my job correctly, they'll be doing right without worry about the terms. I do have them mime a follow-through and will on occasion, put on hand on the medial boarder of their string side scapula while they are at anchor and tell them to "pull" from that point. Combined with the miming exercise, most folks get it sooner rather than later.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper1 View Post
    Dave -

    The string side scapula has to move inward during the draw, kinda hard for that not to happen. Of course it's possible, people can get very creative to do things incorrectly. At anchor the scapula's inward movement is or should be imperceptible. If back tension was maintained AFTER the release (when it counts), an observer will see the scapula move further medially (towards the spine). That's what causes the snap back of the string arm. Having an educated pair of eyes watching you really makes a difference.

    With a lot males I've taught, there's so much tension in the shoulder girdle, it can take months to years to free it up enough to work that way. Most women don't have the problem and get it a lot sooner.

    A few other thoughts. Pinching the shoulder blades together isn't (IMHO) the brightest think to do. That can lead to an uncontrolled explosion and destroy any semblance of a proper follow-through.

    Regarding Bowsage's comments about a "strong bow arm and string hand": Well, that's true, of course, but the only way of achieving that is by the proper control of back tension. You can't muscle a bow arm, not even with the lightest bow made. Fact is that on release, the bow is stronger, faster and smarter than the shooter. Any attempts at controlling it typically end badly.

    BTW - I rarely mention the term back tension to new(er) students. If I've done my job correctly, they'll be doing right without worry about the terms. I do have them mime a follow-through and will on occasion, put on hand on the medial boarder of their string side scapula while they are at anchor and tell them to "pull" from that point. Combined with the miming exercise, most folks get it sooner rather than later.

    Viper1 out.
    Thanks Viper1, I was a little concerned about the movement of the left scapula when I don't really feel that much movement. I do feel the right scapula moving towards the left however. There is two things I need to work on now
    1. releasing with a pull action that lets the fingers end up behind the ear and touching the right shoulder.
    2. dropping the bow arm on release.

    Both these are detrimental to my form. I get low shots now and then from that and I know thats what causes the low shots.
    What my goal is..... to ingrain these things into my form to where I don't have to think about them but have my concentration on the bullseye or Xring......
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  9. #34
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    Dave -

    We teach the follow-through of the string side hand to end up near the base of the skull. That pretty much guarantees and straight back movement without imparting any torque on the string. The fact is that as long as the string hand moves back at the instant of release, the rest is window dressing and it's sole purpose is to make sure that first inch or so is correct.

    Dropping the bow arm can be active or passive. Neither is good. You can consciously bring the bow arm down too quickly, and while that seems "OK", it can progress to the bow moving before the arrow has left the string. The other case is where, alignment is poor and the forces at release, cause the bow arm to move (in any direction). We basically want to preset the bow arm low and back in the shoulder pocket and keep it there (or as close as possible) throughout the shot sequence. That gives the best chance of a "static" bow arm.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  10. #35
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    Viper, How do you know the bow arm is in the right place? I'm refering to the shoulder pocket being right?
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  11. #36
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    Dave -

    It may vary a little from person to person, but you want the head of the upper arm bone to be low in the socket. If you think of keeping your head high above your shoulders, while letting the bow arm sink low (and relaxed) you should be getting the best bone support. Easier to show than to describe.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper1 View Post
    Dave -

    It may vary a little from person to person, but you want the head of the upper arm bone to be low in the socket. If you think of keeping your head high above your shoulders, while letting the bow arm sink low (and relaxed) you should be getting the best bone support. Easier to show than to describe.

    Viper1 out.
    That makes sense and I'll go take a look at RangerBs bow shoulder in his video cause he must have it right or he wouldn't shoot as well as he does.....Thanks Viper1. I probably should peruse thru you book "Shooting the Stickbow" before asking these questions......
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  13. #38
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    Dave looks like Viper answered most of your questions, the one about knowing if front shoulder is set right, if you watch the 'Performance Archery' video you will notice the guy drawing in the video when he does it correctly you will see a small valley/indent in the top of his front shoulder, this is a tell tale sign the front shoulder has been set and held correctly when at full draw.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve morley View Post
    Dave looks like Viper answered most of your questions, the one about knowing if front shoulder is set right, if you watch the 'Performance Archery' video you will notice the guy drawing in the video when he does it correctly you will see a small valley/indent in the top of his front shoulder, this is a tell tale sign the front shoulder has been set and held correctly when at full draw.
    Steve, where can I go to see that video? I would really like to get a good example of how the shoulder position is and what it looks like at full draw.....I think I'm in the right ball park with the right scapula but the bow arm and shoulder is still questionable for me?

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  15. #40
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    Also, I noticed in RangerBs video that it appears that he has some pressure on the palm of his bow hand. I always try to keep all the pressure in the "V" area of the left hand. What is the right pressure area in the grip?
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  16. #41
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    Where is RangerB's video located? I would like to take a look at that.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rembrandt View Post
    Also, I noticed in RangerBs video that it appears that he has some pressure on the palm of his bow hand. I always try to keep all the pressure in the "V" area of the left hand. What is the right pressure area in the grip?
    clip_image001.jpg

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinsheet View Post
    Where is RangerB's video located? I would like to take a look at that.
    Look up in the Stickys.......I think its about the second one down on shoulder and arm at anchor.....Its a great video to watch and learn from.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    Thats what I've always done with fingers extended.....I don't grip the bow at all until the arrow is gone.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rembrandt View Post
    Steve, where can I go to see that video?
    The link was on my first post on this thread


  21. #46
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    Dave -

    Regarding the bow hand. If I were to ask you to push a refrigerator from one room to another, how would you push it ? Most likely with your palms flush against the surface.

    For most people shooting a lot of arrows, a low or palmed bow hand position is best. It helps to prevent fatigue and is readily reproducible - that's makes it more consistent over the long haul, it can increase the torque potential, if not done correctly.

    What you're describing, with the weight on the "V" between the thumb and forefinger, while it can minimize torque, it's difficult to maintain and slight changes can and will change arrow impact.

    For experienced shooters, no one method has proven to be better over all, but you do have to pick one and stick with it. I generally to use the simplest and most reproducible approach, so I use the flat or low grip.

    Yes, it's in the book

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinsheet View Post
    Where is RangerB's video located? I would like to take a look at that.
    Check out his web site. Informative videos

    http://archersparadoxdotorg.wordpress.com/

  23. #48
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    boy am I glad when I was new to archery i was not overwhelmed with all this stuff - it was just fun and natural. I still think that the best advise is that given by Olympic Archery Coach Al Henderson - concentrate on keeping your elbow back - and the formaster will tell you immediately if you are doing this or not and get you and keep you in the habit of doing it - you don't need to know all the names of the muscles involved or be thinking about all this stuff - just keep your elbow back simple as that.

  24. #49
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    I think I'm gonna try the 'Keep your elbow back' thing first. I kinda feel like the centipede when someone asked him how he walked with all those legs. When he started to think about it he couldn't walk an inch...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpbroadhead View Post
    boy am I glad when I was new to archery i was not overwhelmed with all this stuff - it was just fun and natural. I still think that the best advise is that given by Olympic Archery Coach Al Henderson - concentrate on keeping your elbow back - and the formaster will tell you immediately if you are doing this or not and get you and keep you in the habit of doing it - you don't need to know all the names of the muscles involved or be thinking about all this stuff - just keep your elbow back simple as that.
    I agree you dont need to know all the fancy names but using a Formaster wont guarantee you will get front shoulder set right or be able to rotate Scapula for best shot consistency, I see the Formaster more as an exercise device in leaning to relax drawing hand and help build strength or maintain correct Scapula movement, if people imagine just using a Formaster out of the box will give them perfect back tension then they may be a little dissappointed.

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