Short Brace Height Question????



# Thread: Short Brace Height Question????

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## Short Brace Height Question????

Hey Guys,
Been thinking about some "theory" here. I was talking to somebody the other day about what makes a shorter brace height bow "less forgiving". I have never noticed much of a difference in forgiveness between an 8" brace height target bow, and a 6" brace height speed/3d/hunting bow. The most common argument I have heard about what makes them less forgiving is that "the arrow is on the string longer" with a longer power stroke. This seems to make sense initially, BUT.. Let's look at an example.. let's say we are talking about a bow that shoots 300 fps. 300 fps is 3600 inches per second, so it takes roughly .0003 seconds to go 1 inch. How far off target can a bow really move in .0006 seconds if we are talking the difference between a 6" brace and 8" brace? I find it hard to believe this is the real reason why shorter brace height is all that much more less forgiving. If it's not this, then what else is it? Just looking for opinions/input..

2.

3. some figured out how to use a calculator

4.

5. Originally Posted by golfingguy27
How far off target can a bow really move in .0006 seconds ....
Enough to make the average archer miss.

6.

7. Originally Posted by golfingguy27
Hey Guys,
Been thinking about some "theory" here. I was talking to somebody the other day about what makes a shorter brace height bow "less forgiving". I have never noticed much of a difference in forgiveness between an 8" brace height target bow, and a 6" brace height speed/3d/hunting bow. The most common argument I have heard about what makes them less forgiving is that "the arrow is on the string longer" with a longer power stroke. This seems to make sense initially, BUT.. Let's look at an example.. let's say we are talking about a bow that shoots 300 fps. 300 fps is 3600 inches per second, so it takes roughly .0003 seconds to go 1 inch. How far off target can a bow really move in .0006 seconds if we are talking the difference between a 6" brace and 8" brace? I find it hard to believe this is the real reason why shorter brace height is all that much more less forgiving. If it's not this, then what else is it? Just looking for opinions/input..
If short brace heigth bows were as good. You would see more pros shooting them. Got to figure these guys are wanting ever advantage they can get. Its all about Accuracy!
DB

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I find the difference to be more in the "feel" of the often heavy reflexed risers of short BH bows. I really think that it's more of a feel thing, and that most people would find a short BH to shoot very well if they gave themselves a chance with the bow. Archery is definitely a "feel" thing. Any small change can take quite a while to really adjust to, to the point where it becomes a comfortable and natural part of your routine and shot sequence.

I agree with you that one is not necessarily more "forgiving" than the other.

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I'm not making argument as to wether or not short brace height bows are as good, I am just trying to figure out/understand why they are supposedly less forgiving. I have a very scientific/analytical mind, and always want to understand WHY something is the way it is. Not just because everybody says that is the case. And as to the "some figured out how to use a calculator".. I am a machinist and have always been into mathematics, so it's been a long time since I "figured out how to use a calculator"...

10. I think it's the speed of the short brace height bows that make them less forgiving. Example I have more control of my car at 45 mph vs 60 mph. But this is just my thought on it. No real research behind it.

11. Has nothing to do with how long the arrow is on the string.

It has to do with hand torque at full draw and string angle. Much worse with a short ATA bow and a long draw length. Copterdoc and Wiedgon have explained it very well several times. I'm sure Nuts-n-bolts could explain it as well.

All else being equal a bow with a longer brace height should be more accurate. If it isn't then the shooter likely doesn't shoot well enough to notice the difference.

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Originally Posted by mez
Has nothing to do with how long the arrow is on the string.

It has to do with hand torque at full draw and string angle. Much worse with a short ATA bow and a long draw length. Copterdoc and Wiedgon have explained it very well several times. I'm sure Nuts-n-bolts could explain it as well.

All else being equal a bow with a longer brace height should be more accurate. If it isn't then the shooter likely doesn't shoot well enough to notice the difference.
Yeah, definitely couldn't be because the shooter shoots the 6" brace height bow well enough to not notice any significant difference.. it's got to be because he sucks as a shooter.

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I have shot spots since the early seventies. That is one of the theories that has been handed down for many years and has no merit. It ranks right up there with other ones such as (bows have to have long axle to axle to be accurate) or (too much arrow speed causes loss of accuracy). On the other hand, equipment is made so precisely and with so much technology available a lot of old theories are disproved. It is still the Indian.

14. I have an Ultra Elite and Pro Elite. Pro has about 1.25" more brace but also a deflexed riser. At full draw you can definintely feel that the Pro is more stable. It has to be more stable because the grip is moved toward the front of the riser as opposed to being more toward the mid line of the bow as it is with the Ultra, so the Pro won't "twist" as easy in your hand as the Ultra will. The extra brace is just a consequence of the deflex in the riser, not the cause imo. Two bows very similiar, yet feel very different. I shoot better scores with the Pro do it being more steady at full draw, not due to the extra brace imo, and it's even ~10fps slower I might add.

I don't think manufacturers build a bow with the intent of adding extra brace. I think the intent is a more deflexed riser and the side effect from a deflexed riser is more brace. Just my thoughts.

15. Originally Posted by cblake
I have shot spots since the early seventies. That is one of the theories that has been handed down for many years and has no merit. It ranks right up there with other ones such as (bows have to have long axle to axle to be accurate) or (too much arrow speed causes loss of accuracy). On the other hand, equipment is made so precisely and with so much technology available a lot of old theories are disproved. It is still the Indian.
Why dont the pro indians shoot short brace heigth and short axle. Maybe some indians know whats more accurate
DB

16. Originally Posted by cblake
It is still the Indian.
Racist.

17. Where the shorter bh bows give most shooters a fit is shooting anywhere other than on flat, level ground. Most anyone can shoot a short bh bow standing on the line so-so anyway.

But when one is up in a treestand, all twisted around trying to pull off that important shot, at a difficult shot angle, the longer bh bows are golden.

I don't know of anyone that can maintain good shooting form standing 20+ feet up on a 2X2 platform on many of the shots that is presented to us hunters.

The longer bh bow is the more forgiving of form errors.

18. Originally Posted by golfingguy27
Yeah, definitely couldn't be because the shooter shoots the 6" brace height bow well enough to not notice any significant difference.. it's got to be because he sucks as a shooter.
Not what I said but carry on defying physics. May win a Nobel Prize a long with Vegas.

19. Originally Posted by mez
Has nothing to do with how long the arrow is on the string.

It has to do with hand torque at full draw and string angle. Much worse with a short ATA bow and a long draw length. Copterdoc and Wiedgon have explained it very well several times. I'm sure Nuts-n-bolts could explain it as well.

All else being equal a bow with a longer brace height should be more accurate. If it isn't then the shooter likely doesn't shoot well enough to notice the difference.
It's all about the lever length to resist human induced torque. The longer the brace the more resistance to torque, therefore the less likely mistakes will cause you to lose points over a long period of time. It's just that simple.

20. Same goes for short axle to axle bows too in my experience. The longer A to A and higher brace height the bow the better.

21. Originally Posted by Daniel Boone
Why dont the pro indians shoot short brace heigth and short axle. Maybe some indians know whats more accurate
DB
Many pro's are shooting much shorter brace bows than they were just 10 years ago. The PSE Supra has a 7" brace, Mathews Conquest 4 and Apex 7 have a 7" brace and the Hoyt AlphaElite has a 7" brace and the contender is 7 1/8". These previously mentioned bows have won a LOT. It wasn't too long ago anything under an 8" brace was considered "too short".

As for the Pro's they are people and they are going to use what they have been successful with in the past. So if they started rocking with an 7 3/4" bow 38" axle-to-axle bow they are likely to stay with something similar. For a long time it was said that a "target" bow had to be at least 40 inches a-to-a and that has been blown way out of the water.

If "time on the string" was a big deal in effecting accuracy then short draw archers would dominate and everyone would be using "fast" bows. With my 26" draw using a 6" brace bow the power stroke is 20 inches. A 30" draw archer using an 8" brace bow would in theory have his arrow on the string 10% longer than I do. If "time on string" was big deal then a long draw archer is at a serious disadvantage when he uses an 8" brace bow with 500+ grain arrows with low draw weight when shooting indoor spots. there may be reasons a short brace bow isn't as "accurate" as longer brace bow but "time on string" is a big reason if a reason at all.

22. ???...I just dont want the string to hit my thick hunting jacket?

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Originally Posted by mez
Not what I said but carry on defying physics. May win a Nobel Prize a long with Vegas.
Not saying I defy physics, but if my style/grip doesn't induce the torque you are talking about, I don't have to defy physics in order to shoot the short brace height bow well...

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I dont know a for sure answer as to bh and benefits except for how it feels to me and simple theories I have on that. I think if you drop on the shot, a short bh is gonna produce a more extreme angle, from point of arrow leaving string to rest, making arrow hit off target more than it would with large bh. A larger bh would lessen that angle. Just my thought on this and possibly totally wrong.

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Originally Posted by nimh
I dont know a for sure answer as to bh and benefits except for how it feels to me and simple theories I have on that. I think if you drop on the shot, a short bh is gonna produce a more extreme angle, from point of arrow leaving string to rest, making arrow hit off target more than it would with large bh. A larger bh would lessen that angle. Just my thought on this and possibly totally wrong.

I can't agree with that one... if you drop on the shot, or move left/right, the distance that matters is the distance between your two hands, not the distance between the string and the arrow rest.

26. Originally Posted by golfingguy27
Not saying I defy physics, but if my style/grip doesn't induce the torque you are talking about, I don't have to defy physics in order to shoot the short brace height bow well...
But you're human and over the course of many, many shots it will happen. It'll have less effect with a larger brace when it does happen.

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Originally Posted by Buster of Xs
It's all about the lever length to resist human induced torque. The longer the brace the more resistance to torque, therefore the less likely mistakes will cause you to lose points over a long period of time. It's just that simple.
I am with Buster of Xs/Danial Boone and Skeeter 58 on this. All very good points thanks.

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I have three bows that I have shot the crap out of and they are a guardian a destroyer and a specialist. The guardian and the destroyer I can shoot a 300 50x almost every time and did so for 3 yrs. I got a specialist out of the box and without tuning it I was able to shoot 300 56x 58x 58x 53x 58x with the same arrows I was using in the other bows. All of the equipment including the rest were being used on the other bows so the only thing I changed was the bow.

This year on the 3-d courses I am dead on and the targets that used to frustrate me such as turkeys and the little baby bear are now automatic 12's because the target bow with a little more brace height and ata is simply more accurate. Weather it is the brace height or ata I don't know but I like it.

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