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Thread: What is wrong with most deer lures?

  1. #51
    Just got this Msg from Chris Brackett
    "Just passed a 3 main beamed We know as Beamer 158ish 3 yr old stud.... 25 yards came right to the mock scrape I made with my Timber Valley Eustrus 4play ... That stuff I told U about yesterday its awesome... www.tvfreshscent.com they will send it cold to your door order some I guarantee it works unbelievable Boooyah!!!"http://www.facebook.com/chris.brackett.796?fref=ts
    chris Brackett.jpg



  2. #52
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    Good read, wish it was easier to get fresh scent.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by coozie65 View Post
    Good read, wish it was easier to get fresh scent.
    Just pace an order its very simple. We do all the hard work for you!

  4. #54
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    Order placed. Looking forward to trying it in the field.

  5. #55
    Cavan,

    I am a returning customer waiting on my shipment the 17th of Dec because I am in Louisiana, great product, I am convinced just hope that too many people arent. I am concerned that you will run out and I wont be able to get mine.......LOL Thanks again for the great explaination.
    08' Mathews DXT

  6. #56
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    Question, since deer urine and human urine are very close to the same, what quality does your buck urine contain that makes it better?
    Be REEZENable

  7. #57
    I've tried several over the years with basically the same result. 1) Occassionally a buck will come to them. 2) Just as often he will be alarmed and leave as a result. 3) A doe will always be alarmed and run off. I can't believe this one is any different thus will not try. If any of these products were any good NO deer would get a whiff and be alarmed/alerted.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by TCDXT View Post
    Cavan,

    I am a returning customer waiting on my shipment the 17th of Dec because I am in Louisiana, great product, I am convinced just hope that too many people arent. I am concerned that you will run out and I wont be able to get mine.......LOL Thanks again for the great explaination.
    We will have some left as long as you get your order in. We don't take orders we cannot fill.
    Thanks for the continued support!
    Cavan Sullivan

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by stanlh View Post
    Question, since deer urine and human urine are very close to the same, what quality does your buck urine contain that makes it better?
    The simple answer would be nothing if you have a tarsal gland and urinate down your leg. The oils signaling territorial dominance from the tarsal gland are present in the Dominant Buck urine. Our Dominant bucks are penned separately from each other and they all think and act like they are the king of their castle. Thanks for the great question.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Stepheat View Post
    I've tried several over the years with basically the same result. 1) Occassionally a buck will come to them. 2) Just as often he will be alarmed and leave as a result. 3) A doe will always be alarmed and run off. I can't believe this one is any different thus will not try. If any of these products were any good NO deer would get a whiff and be alarmed/alerted.
    Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I challenge you to try ours. Believe me we are different in every way. Deer urine is created equally but it is what happens to that urine in the time after it lease the doe that separates us from the rest of the herd. Nearly 80% of the hunters who use our products harvest a buck. Can you tell me any other product that can give a stat like that? We look forward to hearing from you.
    Thanks,
    Cavan Sullivan

  11. #61
    Cavan,

    Sent you a PM, my 4play was suppose to ship on 12-17 and as of today I have not gotten it. Can you tell me if it was shipped?
    08' Mathews DXT

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Valley View Post
    Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I challenge you to try ours. Believe me we are different in every way. Deer urine is created equally but it is what happens to that urine in the time after it lease the doe that separates us from the rest of the herd. Nearly 80% of the hunters who use our products harvest a buck. Can you tell me any other product that can give a stat like that? We look forward to hearing from you.
    Thanks,
    Cavan Sullivan
    I have read in other threads about does shying away from doe in heat scent. Can you tell us, is that typical doe behavior in regard to estrous scents?
    Be REEZENable

  13. #63
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    How come my post about my experience with this product was deleted by mods? Not right. I had used the estrous scent in a scrape. Had trail camera by it for the full two weeks. And after two weeks only one small buck came in to it. For supposedly being the freshest scent out there and costing so much, you would expect better results. In my opinion its a waste of money. Very disappointed to say the least.
    The Lord Jesus Christ is our saviour. Only he can give us eternal life.

  14. #64
    im not saying that this scent doesnt work or any other urine based scent, but i have used many over the yrs and have found that fresh tarsal cut off of a buck works the best. I do believe you have the catch the "right deer" on the "right day" in the "right mood" for any lure to work. Just seems the majority of the time it wont. I would not fault anyone for trying to increase the odds in their favor. I have changed my hunting tactics of being more low key and under the radar.

  15. #65
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    Doe in heat is largely a waste of time and money regardless of brand.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowhntng4evr View Post
    How come my post about my experience with this product was deleted by mods? Not right. I had used the estrous scent in a scrape. Had trail camera by it for the full two weeks. And after two weeks only one small buck came in to it. For supposedly being the freshest scent out there and costing so much, you would expect better results. In my opinion its a waste of money. Very disappointed to say the least.
    Did you create the scrape or did you over mark an existing scrape?

    IMHO the problem with deer scent is proper application. You gotta put it where the maximum number of deer are concentrated most frequently in the area you intend on hunting. That's where mature bucks start primary scrapes and community scrapes get started.

    When a mature buck makes a scrape, he is hunting for deer and his scrapes are usually placed in a good area for you to be hunting if it's easily accessed without busting deer out of the area. His nose tells him where the maximum deer traffic is in an area due to scent concentration. He wants to inventory the maximum number of does and to also check up on his competition. Finding Primary Scrapes and overmarking them with your choice of lure is a whole lot easier than trying to make a mock scrape in the perfect spot.
    Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo

  17. #67
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    All the dates and times on these are correct.

    This is a major primary scrape in an awesome area, it's public land to boot.

    This scrape had went cold, full of leaves, and no sign of deer stopping around it. Around November 23, 2012 I used a synthetic deer lure and scratched the leaves off of it and marked the ground and the licking branch with about 2 oz. of the lure.

    These are a few of the results. I had at least 8 more 1.5 yr old bucks checking out this scrape from November 23 until i pulled it at the end of December.

    I like how fresh the OP's scents are and I might give them a try around October 23-November 6 next year on some primary scrapes in areas I intend on hunting. Get the mature bucks cruisin' hard for that first estrous doe in the area!
    Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo

  18. #68
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    scam

  19. #69
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    A good quality estrous scent is not a scam at all.
    Be REEZENable

  20. #70
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    buck fever synthetics work

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYBowhunter89 View Post
    Did you create the scrape or did you over mark an existing scrape?

    IMHO the problem with deer scent is proper application. You gotta put it where the maximum number of deer are concentrated most frequently in the area you intend on hunting. That's where mature bucks start primary scrapes and community scrapes get started.

    When a mature buck makes a scrape, he is hunting for deer and his scrapes are usually placed in a good area for you to be hunting if it's easily accessed without busting deer out of the area. His nose tells him where the maximum deer traffic is in an area due to scent concentration. He wants to inventory the maximum number of does and to also check up on his competition. Finding Primary Scrapes and overmarking them with your choice of lure is a whole lot easier than trying to make a mock scrape in the perfect spot.
    Existing scrape and the trail camera was put within 20 ft of it. Only small racked bucks ever came to the scent. All pictures of deer were at night. I'm through with deer lures. I don't care what proof there is to it working.
    The Lord Jesus Christ is our saviour. Only he can give us eternal life.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binney59 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I may be able to guess your answer, but what are your thoughts on the estrus sticks that claim to reduce the degradation of urea and pheromones by having them encapsulated in wax? Again, thanks for the info- lookalike a great company.
    I asked this earlier and didn't notice a response, now that the season has slowed down would you mind offering your view on the scent sticks? Thanks!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Valley View Post
    Hi, my name is Cavan Sullivan. I am a professor of Biology and Animal Behavior. I also own Timber Valley Fresh Scent. I want to attempt to help address some of the questions that I have received from customers and forum members over the last weeks.
    Attachment 1495711
    Let me first start out with a statement that I have used before, but is also one we can all agree on. "Deer scent is created equal, but it is what happens to that scent following collection that sets it apart." Deer urine is an organic compound rich in nitrogen and other byproducts of cellular respiration. Like all other mammals, the primary function of urine is the removal of these harmful elements from the body. As several posters have so eloquently put it, the excretory organ (the urethra) is located geographically near the opening of the reproductive system (the vagina). While not identical, mammals (humans included) share many of the same reproductive organs and the smells associated with it. When a female is in heat or estrous her ovaries (which are part of the reproductive system) releases eggs that are mature and ready for fertilization by sperm from a male. These eggs travel down the fallopian tubes towards the uterus. If sperm is present in the females reproductive tract these eggs will become fertilized and will implant in the uterus. All during this cycle varying amounts of chemical communication compounds (pheromones) are secreted from parts of the reproductive system to indicate to males the readiness to accept a mate. It is because of the proximity of the urethra, and the vagina that naturally secreted urine has such a valuable when used as an attractant.
    The human reproductive cycle is referred as the menstruation cycle, and in this process if conception doesn't occur the endometrium (the lining of the uterus) is shed and expelled through the vagina. This material is full of many of the pheromones from the reproductive system, and being mammals many of these communication chemicals are similar between different mammal species. This explains why guys have had some luck using used tampons. On a side note a study was done recently plotting the tips strippers received from their male clients. The study found that strippers who were on a chemical contraceptive (birth control pill) which alters the natural cycle received significantly different tips than those that were still on the natural cycle. It showed that during the times of the month that the women were most fertile or likely to conceive that there was a significant increase in the attractiveness they had to the male clients. This study demonstrated that as much as we hate to admit it humans are very much animals. We cue in on many of the same chemical communications used by animals subconsciously.
    Attachment 1495715
    Whitetail does go through a slightly different cycle than humans called estrous. The primary difference is the fact that female deer reabsorb the endometrium rather than expel it. The estrous cycle consist of 4 phases (Proestrus, Estrus, Metestrus, and Diestrus. You can visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous to get more particulars of each phase, but the gist is this. During Proestrus their body matures several eggs, and the endometrium starts developing. This is what we hunters call the "chase phase". These does are not yet receptive to a males, but their bodies are starting to produce the pheromones that will soon advertise sexual readiness. The next step is Estrus. During this phase does will stand and breed with a male of there liking. It is during this phase that we see bucks tending does. This is called mate guarding, and bucks intend to monopolize a female be keeping her from mating with another male while she is in estrus. During this time a buck may breed a doe multiple times, and may last 48 hours. Following this Metestrus begins, and the effects of the estrogen start to subside, as progesterone is secreted. Finally if no fawns were conceived Diestrus commences, and the endometrium is reabsorbed to be used in the next cycle which will begin approximately 21 days later. In deer the estrous cycle is dictated by the light-dark cycle, and the shortening of day light exposure in the fall triggers the onset of the Estrous Cycle in the wild. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iaNx-Y362E

    Ok, so what is deer estrous urine, and where does it come from?
    Attachment 1495716
    While I cannot speak on the methods of other producers, here is how its done at Timber Valley Fresh Scent.
    By knowing the hormones that govern the natural reproductive cycle, humans have been able the manipulate reproductive cycle in multiple species. With the growth in popularity in artificial insemination in whitetail breeding, agricultural scientists have perfected the administration of these hormones along with the timing necessary for optimizing conception rates. Deer farmers can also use these same hormone injection regimens to bring does into estrous for the purposes of collection of urine. Physiologically a whitetail doe is capable of producing around 16oz. of urine per day, so given this fact and adding it to the above of an average of 48 hours of estrous. We are left with a maximum of 32oz of estrous urine available from a doe per reproductive cycle. So estrous scent is a very precious commodity, and the sheer volume of "Estrous" scent sitting on the shelves of today’s retail outlets is highly suspicious. Since there is no quality control organization for deer scent the majority of scent on the shelf sold as estrous was collected and bottled the previous year. So already the store bought pee in your bottle is in most cases a minimum of 12 months old, a long time to be sitting at room temperature. At Timber Valley Fresh Scent we use a hormone therapy to bring our does into estrous. When they are approaching the peak we bring them into collection stalls with high density plastic slatted floors. Does are left in the stalls during this 24-48 hour period and allowed to urinate naturally, which usually includes squatting and urinating through the tarsal gland (another scent communication organ). The urine drips through the floor onto a plastic floor that slopes at a slight angle toward a refrigerated collection bucket for each stall. From here we put the urine twice daily into bottles and ship it to our customers usually within 48 hours of collection.

    So the urine laden with estrous signaling pheromones is now in the bottle, how long is it good for?

    Most of us are familiar with the burning ammonia smell released when a bottle of store bought urine is opened for the first time. This comes from the degradation of the urea, which is excreted through the kidneys from dietary proteins. Based on my own chemical research, I have found about half urea (the nitrogen) degrades to ammonia over the course of 2-3 weeks and the attractive power (the pheromones) in the scent significantly decreases over that same period of time. Probably biggest factor influencing urine quality following collection is the build up of bacteria. Bacteria feed on the rich nitrogen molecules in the urine, and can exponentially multiply over a short amount of time. Because of this, steps must be taken to prevent the build up of bacteria. Some manufacturers who want to place scent directly on a store shelf add a preservative such as sodium benzoate to the urine which interrupts the replication cycle of the DNA in the bacteria. These manufacturers maintain that sodium benzoate is scentless and tasteless, but when used as a food preservative up to 1 in 4 people can taste it. I think it goes with out saying deer smell it. Like mentioned before, bacterial growth and conversion of urea to ammonia are the two biggest enemies facing fresh deer scent. To combat these we have found that keeping the urine cold during and after collection, and during shipment does wonders in keeping the scent fresh without having to add a preservative. Hunters are also encouraged to keep their scent bottle in a refrigerator once they receive their product. Some companies advocate freezing their product. In my personal opinion this is far and above off the shelf products, but when compared to fresh chilled scent its falls to second. If you have ever used frozen deer scent you are probably familiar with the white precipitate that forms at the bottom of the bottle upon thawing. This is actually part of the product that was suspended when the product was fresh. When any molecule is frozen then thawed the molecule swells and contracts and this can cause fractures of the highly complicated organic molecules that make up urine. A familiar example of this is milk. Milk that has been frozen then thawed is never the same.

    If you have read this far, thank you. I hope this has shed more insight than confusion on to the topic of deer scent. I am happy that there are a handfull of companies who have decided not to conform to the "old way" of scent production.
    For additional information visit the Fresh deer scent thread in the general bowhunting section. or visit: www.tvfreshscent.com
    Thanks,

    Cavan Sullivan
    Timber Valley Fresh Scent
    Cavan, Nice read and did stop by and like you on face book keep hunters informed they like it nice job.
    a huntN friend Gary
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  24. #74

    Re: What is wrong with most deer lures?

    Great read.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

  25. #75
    That time of the year boys and girls

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