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Thread: Serrated Broadheads? For Duggaboy the broadhead guru

  1. #1
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    Serrated Broadheads? For Duggaboy the broadhead guru

    Duggaboy,

    What if any are the advantages/disadvantages of serrated edges on a broadhead blade like the new Magnus or the SteelForce line of heads?

    fd

    If while in my short stay on this earth I accomplish every goal that my mind can fabricate but I leave this world having done nothing for anyone else or for the greater good, then what, if any, purpose does my life have?


  2. #2
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    I am looking forward to Duggaboy's answer. I for one do not understand the concept. Steak knives are serrated, but you cut back and forth with such a knife like a saw. A broadhead enters and exits in a straight line. I would think a standard blade with a razor-sharp edge would cut the best. I don't shave with a serrated-edged blade, do you?
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  3. #3
    Serrated edges hold their sharpness longer.

    Serrations increase the surface area of the blade, so there is actually a larger cutting surface.

    Serrated blades usually have a thicker edge, which translates into durability.

    The best part, they are actually easy to sharpen, and easier to get a "factory" edge back on, especially if you spend $30 on a SPYDERCO sharpening kit. Ceramic stones designed for flat or serrated edges.

    I can't wait for the new buzzcut stingers!

  4. #4
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    I'm not Duggaboy, but here's my opinion of serrated broadheads based on what I have read over the years - serrations are fine for cutting bread or rope, but they have no place on broadheads!

    The reason is due to cell and body physiology. I'm sure someone with a background in the medical field can jump in and explain it better than me. But what it boils down to is this - a serrated blade cutting thru living tissue produces a 'rougher' cut, which actually makes the wound clot faster. A cut made by a sharp razor does not do as much damage to the surrounding cells and very little clotting occurs. This is why a little paper cut bleeds like a son of a gun. But take a hunk out of your hand with a saw blade and it is easy to stop the bleeding. Remember, broadheads kill by letting as much blood as possible out of the target's body, not by damaging tissue.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olink
    serrations are fine for cutting bread or rope, but they have no place on broadheads!
    "Some things are better left alone." or "If it's not broke, don't fix it." A smooth slicing edge will create a more severe wound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olink
    a serrated blade cutting thru living tissue produces a 'rougher' cut, which actually makes the wound clot faster. A cut made by a sharp razor does not do as much damage to the surrounding cells and very little clotting occurs. This is why a little paper cut bleeds like a son of a gun. But take a hunk out of your hand with a saw blade and it is easy to stop the bleeding. Remember, broadheads kill by letting as much blood as possible out of the target's body, not by damaging tissue.
    Olink,
    I have to agree with your entire assessment of serrated edge broadheads. I'll not be carrying any of them in my quiver. Rifle bullets tear/damage tissues in a simular fashion and therefore not allowing as good of a blood trail, compared to a broadhead wound. However, bullets are supposed to kill by shock, not hemorage.

    Good hunting, Bowhunter57
    Varmint Population Control Specialist

  6. #6
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    I would bet if there was a way I could take 10 bowhunters and have them each shoot a deer and not know they were shooting a serrated BH, they would never know the difference.
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  7. #7
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    Bleeding

    Olink is right on the money.

    Sparing you all the physiological terminology, the more "trauma" there is at a wound sight, the more (and faster) the body sends clotting factors to the site. Essentially the body is recognizing the more traumatic wound as something that needs rapid attention.

    The more you can "slice" without tissue damage and disruption, the fewer (and slower) clotting factors are sent to the injury site.

    Some examples of this in action are shaving cuts (which bleed profusely) and paper cuts. Neither would is substantially traumatic but will bleed like a SOB.

    Again, Olink is correct, it has to do primarily with cellular physiology. It is hard science and is enough to convince me that serrated edges on broadheads are not ideal. CERTAINLY compared to smooth edge broadheads.

    This is also why absolutely razor sharp broadheads are so desirable and make such a huge difference.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by timboj
    Olink is right on the money.

    Sparing you all the physiological terminology, the more "trauma" there is at a wound sight, the more (and faster) the body sends clotting factors to the site. Essentially the body is recognizing the more traumatic wound as something that needs rapid attention.

    The more you can "slice" without tissue damage and disruption, the fewer (and slower) clotting factors are sent to the injury site.

    Some examples of this in action are shaving cuts (which bleed profusely) and paper cuts. Neither would is substantially traumatic but will bleed like a SOB.

    Again, Olink is correct, it has to do primarily with cellular physiology. It is hard science and is enough to convince me that serrated edges on broadheads are not ideal. CERTAINLY compared to smooth edge broadheads.

    This is also why absolutely razor sharp broadheads are so desirable and make such a huge difference.
    I can agree with that on surface wounds like the shaving cut BUT we are talking thru the body wounds...under most conditions thru vital organs which are not going to clot, etc. Think about this for a second.....not apples to apples.
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    Magnus

    Jerry, I wasn't picking on the BuzzCut alone. I just do not believe that serrated broadheads are ideal for larger game. Magnus has a superb broadhead in the regular Stinger.

    There may be a more practical and appropriate application for serrated broadheads in the pursuit of smaller game such as turkey. The terminal goal there is different. It is not to have a great blood trail to follow, it is to cause immediate trauma to down the game pretty much on the spot. (or at least as close as you can)

    And I have to politely disagree. All things being equal, I think there would be a difference in the amount of blood loss with the smooth blade Stinger vs. the Serrated edge model. I don't know if it would be an overwhelming difference or not, but there would be significant difference. Over a season, I think it would be noticed in a few less blood trails and longer recoveries.

  10. #10
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    Clotting

    Internal organs do indeed clot. Very common in the lungs and heart. It is not uncommon for coronary graft (heart by-pass) patients to undergo a procedure to remove clotting around the traumatized heart muscle. President Clinton had this done, I believe.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by timboj
    Jerry, I wasn't picking on the BuzzCut alone. I just do not believe that serrated broadheads are ideal for larger game. Magnus has a superb broadhead in the regular Stinger.

    There may be a more practical and appropriate application for serrated broadheads in the pursuit of smaller game such as turkey. The terminal goal there is different. It is not to have a great blood trail to follow, it is to cause immediate trauma to down the game pretty much on the spot. (or at least as close as you can)

    And I have to politely disagree. All things being equal, I think there would be a difference in the amount of blood loss with the smooth blade Stinger vs. the Serrated edge model. I don't know if it would be an overwhelming difference or not, but there would be significant difference. Over a season, I think it would be noticed in a few less blood trails and longer recoveries.
    Tim, I didnt think you were picking on the Buzzcuts and it is ok if you were I dont care for serrated edge Bh's for the simple reason of less cutting surface compared to the regular nonserrated BH's. I have used many BH's in my years including serrrated BH's and I stand by my opinion that if you could somehow have the hunters not know they were using a serrated BH, the results would be the same as nonserrated BH's, splitting hairs I reckon.
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  12. #12
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    #1 reason to serrate a broadhead - SALES!

    On the other hand, I understand all that's posted above and it makes sense, but I have seen quite a few IMPRESSIVE blood trails from those serrated Steel Force heads.

    Pick-yer-poison I guess.
    "That woulda killed him, if it hadda hit him!" - My enthusiastic and optimistic 8 year old son John, after a complete miss.

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    Jerry

    So you'll still sell me some 85 grainers??? lol

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by timboj
    So you'll still sell me some 85 grainers??? lol
    Tim, it would be my pleasure to help you. I have 2 packs in stock.
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  15. #15
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    Big disadvantage

    I shot a deer in the shoulder W/ a 3 blade seriated head . got about 20" of pennitration on a quartering shot. The teendons from the shoulder were strong through the deer still atatchjed to the broadhead.

  16. #16
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    I won't use serrated heads.

    What has been stated about cell physiology and clotting factors is right on the money. Additionally, most blood vessels contain smooth muscle in their walls that help to constrict the diameter of the vessel to control hemorrhage. A very sharp, smooth edge will not trigger this effect to the degree that a jagged edge will.

    I think that most serrations are like camoflage. Made to look good in the store and sell more of the product.

  17. #17
    Futuredoc,

    I know something about the term "cutting" or "cutting organic tissue" but I'm far from a guru.

    A lot of good points and findings where already stated here.
    I will try to share some knowledge in my awkward English.

    There are three main reasons claimed for a serrated edge:

    1.Longer cutting length
    2.Better edge retention (for special purpose)
    3.Better "initial" cutting ability (for special purpose)

    Some of you might remember that I talked about "push cutting" (chopping) and "pull cutting" (slicing) on an earlier thread.
    However almost each and every cut is a combination of both and depends on the angle of attac from the blade to the object which is supposed to get cut.

    Point 1:
    The longer cutting length of the edge of a serrated blade only is a small advantage.
    Since it is more difficult to give a serrated blade the same sharpness which is possible on a plain edge, one could doubt if this is an advantage at all.

    Point 2:
    In an earlier thread an AT member told us about he was asking a famous bowhunter about the reason for a serrated blade.
    He received the reply:"Why do you think are steak knives serrated?"

    Well, most times it's not very helpful to answer a question with another question. In this case I even highly doubt that this bowhunter knew what he was talking about. Imo, it's a common misunderstanding to think that steak knives are serrated because they can cut meat better.

    The main reason for a more or less serrated blade on steak or other table knives is the better edge retention in that special purpose. Steaks and other foods are mostly served on ceramic plates. While cutting the food you simply can't avoid to push and pull the very edge of your knife against the plate. Ceramic will ruin the very best steel in a single stroke.

    Doing the cutting with a serrated blade, only the "tips" of the serrations will contact the plate. The main cutting edge stays intact and much longer sharp.

    One of my folders


    Serrated kitchen knife. The main cutting surface won't contact the plate.


    But this case shall not pretend that a serrated blade is better for cutting animal tissue.
    Au contraire!
    Animal tissue, muscles, strings etc. is a tight bonded accumulation of very thin but strong fibres which "get caught" more or less in the serrations of the blade which forces the cutting process into a "push cut" at this place.

    Actually even the most sharpest blade shows serrations under the microscope. The smaller those serrations are the less fibres get caught in there and the less cutting resistance will occur.
    That's the reason why you will hardly find a serrated knife at your local butcher or at the slaughter house.
    A serrated edge will always more ripping than slicing.

    To make it clearer I took some pics of serrated bh's in my collection with different kinds of serration.

    A bunch of tissue will get caught with this one.
    Recommended for small game and birds only:


    Smaller serrations on this one:


    "Wave-shaped" serrations. Only a few fibres will get caught here:



    By the way, my thoughts are confirmed by the test results of Dr. Ed Ashby in Australia. The water buffalo is even harder to penetrate than a Cape buffalo because his tissue is as fibrous as on an old big wild boar.
    A carefully stroped plain edged broadhead always penetrated easier than a serrated one.

    Most tradbowhunters like to sharpen their carbon steel heads with a mill b@stard file only to put some microserrations on the edge which appears to be more aggressive in cutting but Ed's testings showed than these edges either are inferior to the penetration ability of a super-sharp plain edge.

    Point 3:
    Serrated blades work very well for slicing bread. The reason are the initial cuttings of the serrations tips into the harder crust allowing the blade grooves (or valleys) between the tips to do the slicing job afterwards. A saw on wood works similar.
    The pressure from the blade on to the material gets concentrated to several points (serration tips) and not to a plain surface, hence the same amount of force on much less surface.

    And again we have the advantage of cutting the food but not the plate, thus better edge retention for that certain purpose.
    With my carefully sharpened hunting knife I can slice toast just by push cutting only though.

    Conclusion:
    My personal opinion about serrated blades on broadheads is as the same as stated somewhere above. It's a good sales argument.
    A serrated edge always looks wicked and aggressive to the average guy and since a huge number of potential customers rather like to get impressed at first sight than logically convinced in a serious manner, a broadhead with serrated blades will find its customers.

    Nobody should take these words as a bashing of other brands please. I was asked for and this is my point of view.
    Judging just by the pictures, the Magnus Stinger Buzzcut shows a "wave-shaped" serration with a soft transition from groove to groove. So keep it real sharp and only as few fibres as possible will get caught on this one.
    Surely it will do the job. I still would prefer the plain edged Stinger though.

    Markus
    Last edited by Dugga Boy; June 2nd, 2005 at 06:05 AM.
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    makes sense

    My wife did all the registering for our wedding gifts, and because of this, all of my kitchen knives are serrated. When I cut up meat for things like fajitas I always use my non-serrated hunting knife because it works much better. Like you said, the fibers of the meat get caught in the groves.

    If you want to know about auto racing you ask a race car driver; if you want to know about brain surgery, you ask a neurosurgeon, and if you want to know about broadheads you ask Duggaboy. Not a guru he says. . . way too much modesty. . . take the credit you deserve.

    fd
    If while in my short stay on this earth I accomplish every goal that my mind can fabricate but I leave this world having done nothing for anyone else or for the greater good, then what, if any, purpose does my life have?

  19. #19
    Interesting question. As stated above I think a non serrated edge is better on a broadhead. I think serrated edges are used for sales because they look like they should be wicked.

    Give me a good sharp non serrated blade. They cut much better than my steak knives do!

    This is nothing against the products of Magnus or Steelfoce or anyone else. I think their products with serrated edges will work just fine on most game animals in No. America. I just think non serrated blades have an advanatage for several reasons as shown above.

    Last edited by Orions_Bow; June 2nd, 2005 at 08:33 AM.

  20. #20
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    My comments:

    First and most importantly...

    Duggaboy - I think your english is very good, but I did find one statement in particular I'd like to correct you on:

    Cape buffalo because his tissue is as fibrous as on an old big wild boar.
    Here in most hunting circles that should have said:

    Cape buffalo because his tissue is as fibrous as a "big 'Ol wild boar"
    'Ol is a "redneck" term for old, much like "Y'all" and "ain't"
    It eliminates the extra effort required to speak proper english. Be careful not to speak TOO properly when addressing hunters, they might just consider you an imposter!

    "Big 'Ol" refers to something big, but may not necessarily actually be old, but usually is. 'Ol is put there to add drama to any situation such as:
    "I had that Big 'ol buck in my sights" (the buck is quite old)
    "I just took a big 'ol leak off the back porch" (the leak is only minutes old)
    "Did you see the size of that big 'ol bull they just got down the road?" Here we don't know if the bull is old, but we know its really big!

    Okay, on to my comment about broadheads. If serrated was really better for cutting, don't you think they'd use them in surgery? Ever see a serated blade in the operating room? I haven't... They use "big 'ol" straight blades in there....

  21. #21
    Bo,
    thanks for lesson.
    I meant "old" as old (higher age) because an old hog got a more dense tissue than a piglet.
    What is an imposter?
    In my dictionary I only found "impostor" which means something like deceiver or cheater.
    bogenjagdpraxis.de

  22. #22
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    Duggaboy - Perhaps I should have added a few more smiley's. It was a Joke -and the words I used were simply slang. I don't envy anyone that has to learn english as a second language! I was definitely just joking around with you. Do you ever watch American hunting shows or videos?

    What I meant by imposter was they might not think you are a "real" hunter if you say for instance "A very large buck" instead of "Big 'Ol" buck. Again it was just a joke... Your english is VERY good.

    Explaining technical information is hard enough, let alone trying to do it in your second language.

    So - things must be going well. Do you think your broadhead production is expanding beyond a hobby yet? It sure sounds like its getting that way to me! Your broadheads are works of are that is for sure!

    I should have had at least this many smileys...

  23. #23
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    Bought me a serrated knife several years ago for gutting, cleaning, and caping. Did so on exactly one elk and took it to the grinder to smooth out the blade. It did stay sharp longer than the straight bladed knives, but the serrations get "clogged" up with all the fascia, tendons, and other tissues that it wouldn't cut unless the "points" were cleaned. I'll never buy another serrated knife for anything but the kitchen for the reasons Markus stated.

    Duggaboy: Your english is TOO good for the bowhunting section of AT ! Its better than alot of Americans......and even though you may think its awkward you do make your point very clear.

  24. #24
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    Markus, to help clarify Bo Hunter's comments. Where I live we would say...Man, at was a big ol' covey of quail that busted outta there ever whichaways. Translated into more correct english... Man, that was a very large covey of quail that exploded out of there in every direction.

    We take a few liberties with our spoken word here, esp. in the southern part of the country. We can't hep it da rest o' ya'll tawk funny.

  25. #25
    I knew you weren't strictly serious about that.

    Yes, I have a couple hunting DVDs (more or less good ones) but I don't watch them often.
    The all time "ten-minutes-whispering into the camera" of the guys on the treestrands are boring me.
    I always think "Speak clearly or shut up and shoot your buck".

    Yes, my hobby is expanding but it's still a hobby. Actually the success scares me a bit and just right now my time is very little due to some examinations in my main job. Will see what the future brings.
    The success is surprising me since I make an unpopular design in an unpopular range of weight, twice as expensive as most others.
    Well, I just had the effectiveness and reliability in mind and not the sales numbers. My fault.

    BT,
    I understand the first version of the example very well, I just can't duplicate.
    I would sound like a wannabe. Just like a guy fom Northern Germany who is trying to speak Bavarian.
    Some problems I have with posts fom OneBowTie, Tink or Unk Bond but this is another story.

    Markus
    bogenjagdpraxis.de

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