Hey Nuts &Bolts!



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## \r\n Hey Nuts &Bolts!\r\n

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\r\n Hey Alan, how about starting a daily or weekly thread where you teach us something new everytime?? You choose the topic. That way we wont have to stalk your posts to find the info that we all crave. We all appreciate the stuff you teach us. This would just give us a daily or weekly lesson. Pretty please????\r\n
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Oct 2011
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\r\n I second this motion!\r\n
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## \r\n Hey Nuts &Bolts!\r\n

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\r\n I also agree. I really enjoy reading all his post!\r\n
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\r\n yep!\r\n
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\r\n i agree as well\r\n
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\r\n Would be an awesome idea! If he had time and didn\'t take up to much of his time I\'d be all for it too!\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by P&y only\r\n \r\n
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Hey Alan, how about starting a daily or weekly thread where you teach us something new everytime?? You choose the topic. That way we wont have to stalk your posts to find the info that we all crave. We all appreciate the stuff you teach us. This would just give us a daily or weekly lesson. Pretty please????
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\nI\'m semi-retired,
\nworking only half time.
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\nI love to research a question,
\nso just post up a question,
\nor send me a pm...
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\nand then,
\nI can come up with the answer,
\nor suggestions to try.\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by nuts&bolts\r\n \r\n
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I\'m semi-retired,
\nworking only half time.
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\nI love to research a questiion,
\nso just post up a question,
\nor send me a pm...
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\nand then,
\nI can come up with the answer,
\nor suggestions to try.
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\r\n Originally Posted by P&y only\r\n \r\n
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\nHello P&y:
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\r\nNearly all cam systems are adjustable in 1/2-inch sizes.
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\r\nMight be a DL MODULE with lots and lots of holes, where each hole is a 1/2-inch adjustment in draw length.
\r\nMight be replaceable modules, where each module is a different draw length, in 1/2 inch DL adjustments
\r\nMight be Fixed DL cams, where each Fixed DL cam is a different DL size, in 1/2 inch sizes.
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\r\nSoooooooo,
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\r\n Originally Posted by nuts&bolts\r\n \r\n
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I\'m semi-retired,
\r\nworking only half time.
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\r\nI love to research a question,
\r\nso just post up a question,
\r\nor send me a pm...
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\r\nand then,
\r\nI can come up with the answer,
\r\nor suggestions to try.
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\nAlan,
\r\nHello...it has been some time since we conversed. I always admire the analytical thinking...some do not understand what it takes but I do. Okay...I have a question for those that want to learn....we talk about tuning bows...I know you already addressed most of this but when it comes to tuning a split buss cable such as on a bowtech then what do we really want to do as ....let us just talk physics...momentum and the continuum...that should get your brain going as you and I have exchanged in this field before. Archery is fascinating in the respect that we can propel an object at a target...and we always wish to know at what impact...KE it will do the best. For tournament it is different as we can lessen the FOC to achieve a properly weighted arrow but in a hunting venue it is different...all seem to want a large FOC such as 12-15%....why. Momentum is movement of weight at a given object but KE is ...Kenetic Enery,...is the force so to speak. I hear so many arguments as to which is better but what is truly the best?...does anyone really know. I am rambling now but will say hello again. Cheers!
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\r\n Originally Posted by Frederick D. Be\r\n \r\n
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Alan,
\nHello...it has been some time since we conversed. I always admire the analytical thinking...some do not understand what it takes but I do. Okay...I have a question for those that want to learn....we talk about tuning bows...I know you already addressed most of this but when it comes to tuning a split buss cable such as on a bowtech then what do we really want to do as ....let us just talk physics...momentum and the continuum...that should get your brain going as you and I have exchanged in this field before. Archery is fascinating in the respect that we can propel an object at a target...and we always wish to know at what impact...KE it will do the best. For tournament it is different as we can lessen the FOC to achieve a properly weighted arrow but in a hunting venue it is different...all seem to want a large FOC such as 12-15%....why. Momentum is movement of weight at a given object but KE is ...Kenetic Enery,...is the force so to speak. I hear so many arguments as to which is better but what is truly the best?...does anyone really know. I am rambling now but will say hello again. Cheers!
\nFred
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\nHello Fred:
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\nThe physics is simple.
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\nIf your goal is to reach your target as fast as possible,
\nyou want to maximize arrow speed....so select the LIGHTEST weight projectile,
\nthat will give you the necessary stiffness to fly properly (proper spine).
\n
\nIf your goal is to reach your target (animal you are hunting)
\nand you want to maximize the probability of a PASS-THROUGH,
\nthen,
\nyou want momentum...the more momentum, then
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Join Date
Aug 2010
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Location
Show-Me State..on a little pond called Lake Pomme De Terre
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\r\n Alan is like "Underdog" and the rest of us are "Polly Purebred",he seems to always come to our rescue when we are in trouble,if there is anyone whom is more helpfull then we are truly blessed............Thank You ,Alan,and may the "force"always be with you.\r\n
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Show-Me State..on a little pond called Lake Pomme De Terre
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\r\n P&Y is right;kind like when we were in school and ask the teacher how to spell something and she says"look it up in the dictionary"...Kind hard to look it up if you can\'t spell it,,,,DUH!!!\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; pd[1066389995] = '\n\n\r\n
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\r\n This could very well turn out to be the best thread on AT.\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; pd[1066390029] = '\n\n\r\n
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\r\n Dbrisc\r\n
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Join Date
Mar 2012
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Location
Anchorage, AK
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Posts
1,008
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\r\n Pretty cool idea.
\nIt would be nice if the mods could add a feature to subscribe to a users posts.
\nGuess I can always search.
\nIf so subscribe me to anything nuts&bolts posts.\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; pd[1066390063] = '\n\n\r\n
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\r\n So,
\r\nbareshafts not hitting with field points,
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\r\nSo,
\r\nthese are reasons why we need to MICRO-ADJUST the draw length,
\r\nin amounts MUCH less than the 1/2-inch EASY adjustments provided by the manufacturer.\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; pd[1066390080] = '\n\n\r\n
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\r\n So,
\r\nis REALLY trying to do.
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\r\nAnytime you adjust the bow Draw Length setting,
\r\nwe are ALL hoping to improve the size of our arrow groups.
\r\n
\r\nWe want our fletched arrows to have the SAME point of impact.
\r\nWe want the fixed blade broadheads to have the SAME point of impact as our field points.
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\r\nSo,
\r\nwe need to talk about ALIGNMENT.\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; pd[1066390165] = '\n\n\r\n
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\r\n ALIGNMENT.
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\r\nHere is a REAL WORLD case.
\r\nYoung man was sold a bow that was WAY too long for bow draw length setting.
\r\nNOT even close.
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\r\nA shame, actually.
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\r\nSo,
\r\nlet\'s take a CLOSER LOOK at the ALIGNMENT of the release side forearm.
\r\n
\r\nTHINK of the release side FOREARM...
\r\n
\r\nas a flashlight
\r\nas a laser pointer.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthis young man
\r\nhas his LASER POINTER aiming WAY WAY off to the RIGHT
\r\nof where he has the fletched field point arrow aiming.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nif he were to shoot through PAPER,
\r\nthe result would be a MASSIVE left PAPER TEAR.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthe usual advice he would get:
\r\n
\r\na) move your arrow rest to the right
\r\nb) stop torquing your bow hand
\r\nc) get a stiffer arrow
\r\nd) a FEW, might recommend adding a say 2 twists to the TOP AXLE, end loop on the LEFT...and remove 2 twists on the TOP AXLE, end loop on the RIGHT
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWhen trying to understand a concept,
\r\nimagine the EXTREME CASE,
\r\nand then,
\r\nyou understand the FUNDAMENTALS.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nunfortunately,
\r\nthis is a REAL WORLD CASE.
\r\n
\r\na) moving the arrow rest to the RIGHT, to FIX a left paper tear...is respectfully, CHEATING.
\r\n....what you accomplish by moving the arrow rest to RIGHT, to fix a SMALL left paper tear, is trying to get the arrow rest to LINEUP with the arrow FLIGHT PATH
\r\n....if we have a SMALL mis-alignment of the LASER POINTER (release side forearm), then, moving the arrow rest to the RIGHT WILL WORK
\r\n....the SMALL mis-alignment of the LASER POINTER (release side forearm) pulls the bowstring SIDEWAYS to the LEFT and, when the BACK END of the arrow is PULLED LEFT, then the FRONT END is PUSHED RIGHT
\r\n
\r\nSo, for this young man,
\r\nthe MIS-ALIGNMENT is SOOOOOOOOO SEVERE...
\r\n
\r\nthis is the post you see on ArcheryTalk,
\r\nwhere the Fella says...."I moved my arrow rest ALL the way to the RIGHT...I moved my arrow rest ALL the way to the LEFT...and I\'m still getting this MASSIVE LEFT PAPER TEAR".
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthe REAL FIX, for a TRULY MASSIVE LEFT paper tear (assuming a RIGHT HANDED shooter)
\r\nis to FIX the alignment of the LASER POINTER (release side forearm).
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthe REAL FIX is to get this young man to this alignment position....
\r\n
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\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthe FIRST STEP
\r\nis to use the available 1/2-inch draw length changes...
\r\n
\r\nmaybe he is lucky and was sold an ADJUSTABLE draw length bow...where he just has to move a screw to a different hole on the ADJUSTABLE DL module...
\r\n
\r\nmaybe he is a little LESS lucky, and has to go back to the point of sale, and swap out DL modules and find the BEST size of DL module, in the SHORTER direction
\r\n
\r\nmaybe he is TRULY unlucky, and was sold a FIXED draw length cam, where he now needs to find the CORRECT SIZE of FIXED draw length cam,
\r\nand completely new rigging to match the SHORTER FIXED draw length cam.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nhe gets the SHORTER DL setting adjusted on his bow...
\r\n
\r\nbut,
\r\nhe has gone from a MASSIVE LEFT TEAR when paper tuning...
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\r\nto a MILD LEFT paper tear, when paper tuning.\r\n
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\r\n Now,
\r\nthat we are in the ball park...
\r\n
\r\nnow that we are within 1/4-inch of the PERFECT draw length...
\r\n
\r\nNOW,
\r\nwe can talk about micro-tuning the draw length,
\r\nwhich is making adjustments to the ALIGNMENT of the release side forearm (Laser Pointer)
\r\nto really DIAL IN the draw length setting on the bow.
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nthis is where my KITCHEN SINK Tuning comes in.
\r\n
\r\nWe ALL want to have the same arrow point of impact.
\r\nWE ALL want field points and broadheads to hit the same spot.
\r\nWe ALL want our target arrows to nail the center of the x-ring..again and again and again.
\r\n
\r\nThis is why we DIAL IN the draw length setting on the bow,
\r\none twist in the bowstring, at a time,
\r\nwhen we are up to 1/4-inch AWAY...from DIALING in the PERFECT bow draw length setting....
\r\ncuz...
\r\n
\r\ncam DL sizes are spaced 1/2-inch apart.\r\n
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\r\n So,
\r\nthe first few steps of my KITCHEN SINK Tuning are a test for DIALING in your bow DL setting
\r\ngetting the ALIGNMENT of the release forearm PERFECT,
\r\nso we can get the SAME arrow point of impact....
\r\n
\r\nnailing a weighted string,
\r\njust 5 FEET away.
\r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSTEP 1:
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nhang a spool of string or any string with a weight on the end,
\r\nin front of a target.
\r\n
\r\nStep back 5 feet.
\r\nFire a fletched arrow at the string.
\r\nTweak the sight pins windage a skosh left...a skosh right,
\r\nuntil the fletched arrow TOUCHES or even SPLITS the string material.
\r\n
\r\nYou should get this result.
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\r\nThen,
\r\nwe goto the next stage.
\r\n
\r\nStep back 5 feet,
\r\nand try again with a bareshaft (arrow with no vanes).
\r\n
\r\nYou should get this result.
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\r\nIf you are a RIGHT HANDED shooter
\r\nand
\r\nthe bareshaft misses to the RIGHT of the string...
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSTEP 2:
\r\n
\r\nand shorten the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
\r\nand lengthen the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg say 1 complete twist
\r\nand fire a bareshaft again at the hanging string in front of the target...
\r\n
\r\nthe bareshaft point of impact should MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
\r\n
\r\nrepeat the shortening of the LEFT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (ADD)
\r\nand
\r\nrepeat the lengthening of the RIGHT SIDE buss cable leg with another complete twist (REMOVE)
\r\n
\r\nSTEP 3:
\r\n
\r\nIF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT MOVE CLOSER TO THE STRING...
\r\nIF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT DOES NOT CHANGE...
\r\nIF THE BARESHAFT POINT OF IMPACT STAYS OFF TO THE RIGHT...
\r\n
\r\nTHEN WE HAVE A DRAW LENGTH PROBLEM....ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION
\r\ncuz your elbow is too far back
\r\ninstead of DIRECTLY behind the arrow...in line behind the arrow
\r\n
\r\nso,
\r\nyour release forearm is pointed OFF TO THE RIGHT,
\r\nand
\r\nyour release forearm pulls the bowstring sideways (FAMOUS LEFT PAPER TEAR for right handed shooters)
\r\nand
\r\nwhen we have a nock left paper tear,
\r\ncuz the bowstring is pulled sideways to the LEFT,
\r\ncuz your forearm is pointed off to the right,
\r\nthen...
\r\n
\r\nthe bareshaft goes whereever your forearm is pointed
\r\nand the bareshaft misses sideways to the RIGHT of the string.
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSo if STEP 2 (buss cable leg tuning) has ZERO EFFECT,
\r\nwe must goto
\r\n
\r\nSTEP 4.
\r\n
\r\nSHORTEN the bow DL setting.
\r\n
\r\nNow,
\r\nyou might need to shorten the bow DL setting a complete 1/2 inch (new module).
\r\n
\r\nNow,
\r\nyou might need to shorten the bow DL setting less than a complete module replacement...
\r\n
\r\nmaybe you need to shorten the bow DL setting only 1/8th inch....maybe only 1/4-inch.
\r\n
\r\nHOW do you shorten a bow DL setting in-between module sizes?...less than 1/2-inch?
\r\n
\r\nFIND the bottom of the buss cable (cable with 3 end loops) and REMOVE twists to INCREASE ATA
\r\nand the bow DL will shorten. As you continue to UNTWIST the buss cable, the ATA continues to grow
\r\nand the bow DL will continue to shorten.
\r\n
\r\nKeep tweaking the buss cable LONGER, until the bareshaft hits the string, like this...
\r\n
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\r\nSo,
\r\nstay at 5 feet
\r\nand fire fletched arrows at the string
\r\nand
\r\nfire bare shaft arrows at the string
\r\nuntil both fletched and bareshaft hit the string.
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nWhen firing fletched arrows at the string (tweak the sight pins windage)...to adjust
\r\nwhen firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable (bottom of the buss cable to make LARGE adjustments for point of impact....missing RIGHT by inches)
\r\nwhen firing bareshafts at the string...work the buss cable legs (shorten left side leg when missing right of the string by tiny amounts IF YOU ARE a RH shooter).
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSoon,
\r\nyour fletched arrows will be touching the string.
\r\n
\r\nSoon,
\r\nyour bareshafts will also touch the string.\r\n
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\r\n I notice that the target with string attached is on an "elevated platform". Is there a certain height that this needs to be to perform this properly?\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by juspassinthru\r\n \r\n
\r\n
I notice that the target with string attached is on an "elevated platform". Is there a certain height that this needs to be to perform this properly?
\r\n \r\n
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\r\n
\nI want shooters to shoot with the bow arm LEVEL
\nwith the arrow LEVEL,
\nwhen at full draw.
\n
\nSo,
\nI want the target,
\nI want the middle of the target
\nto be at YOUR shoulder height.
\n
\nSo,
\nI want you in THIS shooting position,
\nhitting the center of the target.
\n
\n
\n
\nSo,
\nwhen you are in THIS shooting position,
\nthen,
\nthe center of the target should be at your index finger height.\r\n
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\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n
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\r\n
\r\n So,
\r\nwhen you can get a fletched arrow to NAIL a weighted string,
\r\nand
\r\nwhen you can get a bareshaft to ALSO touch the weighted string...
\r\n
\r\nwhen shooting at 5 feet,
\r\nthen,
\r\nyour draw length is dialed in.
\r\n
\r\nSingle cam bow,
\r\ntwin cam bow,
\r\nhybrid cam bow...
\r\n
\r\nany bow with a buss cable (cable with 3 end loops, where two of the loops attach to the top axle),
\r\nyou can tweak the draw length...
\r\n
\r\nby shortening or lengthening the buss cable (add or remove twists at the bottom of the buss cable).
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSingle cam bow,
\r\ntwin cam bow,
\r\nhybrid cam bow,
\r\nbinary cam bow...
\r\n
\r\nyou can also adjust the bow DL setting, by ADDING/REMOVING twists from the bowstring itself
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThe key thing to remember
\r\nis that when you ADJUST the bow DL setting,
\r\nkeep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as before,
\r\ncuz we are trying to make the ELBOW (release arm side)
\r\nSWING AROUND YOUR SHOULDER, like a door hinge.
\r\n
\r\nThis will ONLY happen,
\r\nif you keep the FRONT HALF of your body (bow arm half)
\r\nexactly the SAME as before (bow arm elbow bend).
\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by nuts&bolts\r\n \r\n
\r\n
So,
\r\nwhen you can get a fletched arrow to NAIL a weighted string,
\r\nand
\r\nwhen you can get a bareshaft to ALSO touch the weighted string...
\r\n
\r\nwhen shooting at 5 feet,
\r\nthen,
\r\nyour draw length is dialed in.
\r\n
\r\nSingle cam bow,
\r\ntwin cam bow,
\r\nhybrid cam bow...
\r\n
\r\nany bow with a buss cable (cable with 3 end loops, where two of the loops attach to the top axle),
\r\nyou can tweak the draw length...
\r\n
\r\nby shortening or lengthening the buss cable (add or remove twists at the bottom of the buss cable).
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nSingle cam bow,
\r\ntwin cam bow,
\r\nhybrid cam bow,
\r\nbinary cam bow...
\r\n
\r\nyou can also adjust the bow DL setting, by ADDING/REMOVING twists from the bowstring itself
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThe key thing to remember
\r\nis that when you ADJUST the bow DL setting,
\r\nkeep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as before,
\r\ncuz we are trying to make the ELBOW (release arm side)
\r\nSWING AROUND YOUR SHOULDER, like a door hinge.
\r\n
\r\nThis will ONLY happen,
\r\nif you keep the FRONT HALF of your body (bow arm half)
\r\nexactly the SAME as before (bow arm elbow bend).
\r\n \r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\nCan you explan binary cams and DL change? Do you put a twist in the cable or string?? Do you do both ends?
\r\n
\r\nThx\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by eskimoohunt\r\n \r\n
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Can you explan binary cams and DL change? Do you put a twist in the cable or string?? Do you do both ends?
\r\n
\r\nThx
\r\n \r\n
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\r\n
\nBinarys are even more adjustable in this regard. Twisting the string and untwisting the cables will shorten draw length.
\r\n
\r\nUntwisting the string and twisting the cables will lengthen DL.
\r\n
\r\nUntwisting string without twisting cables will lengthen DL, lower peak weight, increase A2A and shorten brace Although slightly on the later two.
\r\n
\r\nHere\'s a link to Elite\'s tuning basics.
\r\n
\r\nhttp://www.elitearchery.com/technolo...ent_basics.pdf\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by lunk2002\r\n \r\n
\r\n
Binarys are even more adjustable in this regard. Twisting the string and untwisting the cables will shorten draw length.
\r\n
\r\nUntwisting the string and twisting the cables will lengthen DL.
\r\n
\r\nUntwisting string without twisting cables will lengthen DL, lower peak weight, increase A2A and shorten brace Although slightly on the later two.
\r\n
\r\nHere\'s a link to Elite\'s tuning basics.
\r\n
\r\nhttp://www.elitearchery.com/technolo...ent_basics.pdf
\r\n \r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\n
\r\nNOT QUITE.
\r\n
\r\n1) untwist the string (at both ends), and yes, the draw length gets slightly LONGER.
\r\n2) twist the cables (do the same adjustment on both cables) and the draw length also gets slightly LONGER.
\r\n
\r\n3) untwist the string ONLY, the string gets longer, so the draw length gets LONGER
\r\n....untwist the bowstring ONLY, and the PEAK DRAW WEIGHT goes HIGHER slightly
\r\n....untwist the bowstring ONLY, and the HOLDING WEIGHT goes LOWER slightly
\r\n....untwist the bowstring ONLY and the ATA does grow
\r\n....untwist the bowstring ONLY and the brace height does shrink
\r\n
\r\n3) twist the bowstring ONLY, the string gets SHORTER, so the draw length gets SHORTER
\r\n....twist the bowstring ONLY, and the PEAK DRAW WEIGHT goes LOWER slightly
\r\n....twist the bowstring ONLY, and the HOLDING WEIGHT goes HIGHER slightly
\r\n....twist the bowstring ONLY and the ATA does shrink a very very very tiny amount
\r\n....twist the bowstring ONLY and the brace height does grow a very very very tiny amount
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nEasiest way to remember...
\r\nwhen draw weight goes DOWN, then holding weight goes UP....when you SHORT STRING a bow...(ADDing TWISTS at both ends)
\r\n
\r\nwhen draw weight goes UP, then holding weight goes DOWN....when you LONG STRING a bow...(RE-moving twists at both ends)\r\n
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\r\n i did the kitchens sink tune on my burner and my goodness did it make a world of difference ... one question ... lets say we have done the tune.. then decide to change to a heavier tip say 125 grain moved to 165 grains ... but we remain in the optimum spine sensitivity range per OT2 with this have any affect on the kitchen sink tune? or will it need to be done in its entirety again\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by bambikiller\r\n \r\n
\r\n
i did the kitchens sink tune on my burner and my goodness did it make a world of difference ... one question ... lets say we have done the tune.. then decide to change to a heavier tip say 125 grain moved to 165 grains ... but we remain in the optimum spine sensitivity range per OT2 with this have any affect on the kitchen sink tune? or will it need to be done in its entirety again
\r\n \r\n
\r\n
\r\n
\nHeavier points up front...
\n
\njust work the limb bolts
\nand play with the draw weight,
\na little heavier for draw weight...
\na little lighter for draw weight...
\n
\nuntil you find the sweet spot for arrow group TIGHTNESS.
\n
\nAfter you find the sweet spot for the limb bolts position...
\n
\nrepeat the KITCHEN SINK TUNING,
\nto fine tune everything again...
\nto get everything DIALED in...
\n
\ncuz,
\nwhen you tweak the draw weight,
\nfor BEST result...
\n
\nthe draw weight changed,
\nbut...
\n
\nyou also changed the ATA
\nyou also changed the draw length.
\n
\nSo,
\nrepeat KITCHEN SINK,
\nwhen you feel you have the draw weight dialed in...
\n
\nso we can check,
\nand see if any adjustments are needed at each TEST in KITCHEN SINK tuning.
\n
\nIf you pass each test,
\nthen,
\nKITCHEN SINK will go very very quickly.
\n
\nIf you have a yoke cable bow,
\nthen,
\ndon\'t forget to go through CREEP TUNING.
\n
\nhttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tuning
\n
\nSee POST #15.\r\n
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\r\n Outdoorsman_3\r\n
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\n\r\n \n\r\n\n\r\n \r\n \r\n Registered User\r\n \r\n \r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n
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Join Date
Aug 2009
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Posts
40
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\r\n Keep going! This is so good!\r\n
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Join Date
Sep 2009
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## \r\n Hey Nuts &Bolts!\r\n

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\r\n Thread if the century contender ?
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## \r\n Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?\r\n

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\r\n"Draw Force Curve?"
\r\n
\r\nMitigator33\'s question:
\r\n
\r\nI put my 2013 Answer on the draw board with my Pelouze digital scale.
\r\nAt first it was maxed out at 73 lbs.
\r\n
\r\nIt loaded quick then held in the 69-72 range
\r\nfor much of the draw cycle finally
\r\ndropping into a short valley and
\r\nhaving an 18lb holding weight.
\r\n
\r\nDraw stops were all the way out. 30.25" draw.
\r\n
\r\nOnce dialing down to 70lb draw weight
\r\nit was a lot different cycle.
\r\nDraw stops all the way out 30.25" draw
\r\n
\r\nit peaked early for only a few inches then
\r\nlet off quick falling into the valley
\r\nwhich was much longer and had a 15.5-16lb hold weight.
\r\n
\r\nThe question I am having is what else can be done
\r\nif anything
\r\nto change the draw cycle.
\r\n
\r\nI am new to bow tuning.
\r\n
\r\nThe cams are synced perfect at this point
\r\nbut it was amazing to me the difference in what 3 lbs made.
\r\n
\r\nI\'m not really needing a change just on an educational mission.
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## \r\n Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?....(continued)\r\n

\r\n \r\n \r\n \r\n
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\r\n
\r\n So,
\r\nall Mitigator33 did,
\r\nas relax the limb bolts slightly AWAY from maximum...
\r\n
\r\nso the draw weight = 73 lbs (limb bolts at maximum)
\r\nand
\r\nnow the draw weight = 70 lbs (limb bolts slightly away from maximum).
\r\n
\r\nThe FEEL of the draw cycle changed very noticeably.
\r\n
\r\nWhat happened?
\r\nWhy?

\r\n
\r\nYou can tweak the BALANCE between holding weight and draw weight...
\r\n
\r\nby ADDING or REMOVING twists in the bowstring.
\r\n
\r\nADD TWISTS to both ends of the bowstring,
\r\nto shorten the bowstring.
\r\n
\r\nYou can try just 1 extra twist say at each end.
\r\nYou can try say 3 extra twists on TOP and say 5-6 twists extra on BOTTOM.
\r\n
\r\nAnytime you SHORTEN a bowstring,
\r\nyou SHIFT the balance between holding weight and draw weight....
\r\n
\r\nthe draw weight goes DOWN slightly
\r\nand
\r\nthe holding weight goes UP slightly.
\r\n
\r\nSo,
\r\nguess what happens if you go the other direction?
\r\n
\r\nIf you LENGTHEN a bowstring, just by a few twists...
\r\n
\r\nthen,
\r\nyou AGAIN, shift the balance between HOLDING weight and DRAW weight.
\r\n
\r\nWhen you LENGTHEN a bowstring,
\r\neven by just a few twists at each end,
\r\nthe HOLDING weight goes DOWN and the DRAW WEIGHT goes UP...slightly.
\r\n
\r\n
\r\nThis is completely due to cam starting rotation position,
\r\nand
\r\nthe LEVERAGE created by the changing radius of the cam,
\r\ndepending on the position of the cam,
\r\nwhen the bow is at rest.
\r\n
\r\nA CAM is just a crow bar...
\r\n
\r\nwith an ever changing length.
\r\n
\r\nIf you only look at the 3-o\'clock position of the top cam,
\r\nand the cam rotates,
\r\nyou can see that the diameter or radius of the cam CHANGES as the cam rotates,
\r\nwhile you pull the bowstring from AT REST, to FULL DRAW.
\r\n
\r\nA CAM is just a variable length CROW-BAR.\r\n
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## \r\n Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?....(continued)\r\n

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\r\n Mitigator33 has a 2013 Answer.
\n
\nStarting draw weight was 73 lbs with limb bolts at maximum.
\nAdjusted draw weight was 70 lbs, with limb bolts slightly away from maximum.
\n
\nHere is a brief table of his specs, and short comments on what happened, and why.
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\r\n Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by adamst\r\n \r\n
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Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?
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\nIN SPEC is just the beginning.
\n
\nWe fine tune to GO OUT of spec on PURPOSE.
\n
\nResults is what we tune a bow for,
\nfor a CUSTOM fit.
\n
\nIn Spec is only a GUIDE.
\n
\nIn Spec is not the FINAL GOAL.
\n
\nShoooting the BEST arrow groups of your life,
\nis the goal.
\n
\nThis is the purpose of KITCHEN SINK TUNING,
\nto show you how much to go OUT OF SPEC,
\nto get a new PERSONAL best score (if you are a target shooter)
\nand
\nto get to a new PERSONAL BEST arrow group size (accuracy).\r\n
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\r\n Originally Posted by adamst\r\n \r\n
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Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?
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\nIN SPEC for ATA is only a GUIDE to make sure you are hitting max draw weight,
\nwhen the limb bolts are at maximum.
\n
\nSo,
\nmaking sure you hit 60 lbs of draw weight,
\nwith your limb bolts at maximum,
\nis the ONLY real purpose for checking ATA.
\n
\nChecking brace height,
\nis a lazy man\'s way to confirm that we are at the factory spec for cam starting rotation position.
\n
\nMUCH more accurate,
\nto do the CREEP TUNING
\n
\nhttp://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tuning
\n(see POST #15)
\n
\nto find YOUR sweet spot for the cam rotation position,
\n
\nwhen do the test in the CREEP TUNING tuning method.
\n
\nRESULTS are what we are after.
\n
\nNot just hitting factory spec for ATA and Brace Height...
\ncuz FACTORY spec may not get YOU the best results,
\n
\nis what we are after.
\n
\nthe way YOU grip the handle release...
\n
\nALL of these things may not LINE UP directly behind the arrow, when YOU are at full draw...
\n
\nif we are only setting draw length at 1/2-inch SIZES.
\n
\nSo,
\nthis is why we go OUT of spec, if we NEED to..
\n
\nby tweaking the ATA AWAY from factory spec, (adjusting the twists on the buss cable)
\nmaybe only 1 TWIST extra (we shrink the ATA to extend the DL up to 1/4-inch MORE)...
\nmaybe only 2 TWISTS less (we grow the ATA to shrink the DL up to 1/4-inch LESS)...
\n
\nwe tweak the DL,
\nwe MICRO-TUNE the DL,
\nto see if we can get slightly BETTER results.
\n
\nFocus on RESULTS.
\n
\nDon\'t worry so much about hitting factory spec.
\nThat\'s just the beginning of tuning.
\n
\nGoing OUT of Spec,
\nwith a recipe,
\nwith a process,
\nstep by step
\n(KITCHEN SINK TUNING)
\nand then
\n(CREEP TUNING)...
\n
\nso you get better results
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Join Date
Aug 2010
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Location
Show-Me State..on a little pond called Lake Pomme De Terre
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\r\n Very true,a bow will operate efficiently,even when out of spec,because it is static and will always do the same thing everytime,no matter how it specs out.The goal is to spec it out to fit and shoot BEST for you,who cares if IT is out of spec.\r\n
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\r\n Awesome anwer thanks N&B makes perfect sense.\r\n
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\r\n I cant get enough of this info! If only I could retain it lol. Thanks a bunch N&B.\r\n
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• \r\n\r\n\r\n\n\n'; // next/previous post info pn[1066389589] = "1067751772,1066389606"; pn[0] = ",1066389589"; pn[1066389606] = "1066389589,1066389610"; pn[1066389610] = "1066389606,1066389618"; pn[1066389618] = "1066389610,1066389619"; pn[1066389619] = "1066389618,1066389643"; pn[1066389643] = "1066389619,1066389650"; pn[1066389650] = "1066389643,1066389771"; pn[1066389771] = "1066389650,1066389894"; pn[1066389894] = "1066389771,1066390039"; pn[1066390039] = "1066389894,1066392661"; pn[1066392661] = "1066390039,1066392740"; pn[1066392740] = "1066392661,1066389861"; pn[1066389861] = "1066392740,1066389976"; pn[1066389976] = "1066389861,1066389995"; pn[1066389995] = "1066389976,1066390029"; pn[1066390029] = "1066389995,1066390040"; pn[1066390040] = "1066390029,1066390063"; pn[1066390063] = "1066390040,1066390080"; pn[1066390080] = "1066390063,1066390165"; pn[1066390165] = "1066390080,1066390191"; pn[1066390191] = "1066390165,1066390214"; pn[1066390214] = "1066390191,1066881020"; pn[1066881020] = "1066390214,1066881842"; pn[1066881842] = "1066881020,1066390255"; pn[1066390255] = "1066881842,1066714221"; pn[1066714221] = "1066390255,1066870239"; pn[1066870239] = "1066714221,1066870462"; pn[1066870462] = "1066870239,1066390292"; pn[1066390292] = "1066870462,1066390411"; pn[1066390411] = "1066390292,1066390337"; pn[1066390337] = "1066390411,1066390447"; pn[1066390447] = "1066390337,1066390528"; pn[1066390528] = "1066390447,1066390546"; pn[1066390546] = "1066390528,1066390558"; pn[1066390558] = "1066390546,1066390627"; pn[1066390627] = "1066390558,1066391918"; pn[1066391918] = "1066390627,1066391998"; pn[1066391998] = "1066391918,1066392012"; pn[1066392012] = "1066391998,1066392127"; pn[1066392127] = "1066392012,1066392311"; pn[1066392311] = "1066392127,1066392367"; pn[1066392367] = "1066392311,1066392473"; pn[1066392473] = "1066392367,1066393372"; pn[1066393372] = "1066392473,1066393426"; pn[1066393426] = "1066393372,1066392505"; pn[1066392505] = "1066393426,1066392543"; pn[1066392543] = "1066392505,1066392551"; pn[1066392551] = "1066392543,1066392613"; pn[1066392613] = "1066392551,1066392667"; pn[1066392667] = "1066392613,1066392676"; pn[1066392676] = "1066392667,1066392741"; pn[1066392741] = "1066392676,1066392843"; pn[1066392843] = "1066392741,1066392812"; pn[1066392812] = "1066392843,1066393409"; pn[1066393409] = "1066392812,1066392882"; pn[1066392882] = "1066393409,1066393089"; pn[1066393089] = "1066392882,1066393342"; pn[1066393342] = "1066393089,1066393384"; pn[1066393384] = "1066393342,1066393403"; pn[1066393403] = "1066393384,1066393912"; pn[1066393912] = "1066393403,1066393921"; pn[1066393921] = "1066393912,1066393946"; pn[1066393946] = "1066393921,1066394099"; pn[1066394099] = "1066393946,1066396125"; pn[1066396125] = "1066394099,1066394140"; pn[1066394140] = "1066396125,1066396175"; pn[1066396175] = "1066394140,1066394176"; pn[1066394176] = "1066396175,1066394227"; pn[1066394227] = "1066394176,1066394728"; pn[1066394728] = "1066394227,1066395199"; pn[1066395199] = "1066394728,1066396687"; pn[1066396687] = "1066395199,1066394357"; pn[1066394357] = "1066396687,1066394699"; pn[1066394699] = "1066394357,1066396179"; pn[1066396179] = "1066394699,1066396341"; pn[1066396341] = "1066396179,1066394419"; pn[1066394419] = "1066396341,1066394661"; pn[1066394661] = "1066394419,1066394501"; pn[1066394501] = "1066394661,1066394541"; pn[1066394541] = "1066394501,1066394607"; pn[1066394607] = "1066394541,1066396381"; pn[1066396381] = "1066394607,1066396449"; pn[1066396449] = "1066396381,1066396783"; pn[1066396783] = "1066396449,1066396790"; pn[1066396790] = "1066396783,1066397042"; pn[1066397042] = "1066396790,1066397159"; pn[1066397159] = "1066397042,1066397269"; pn[1066397269] = "1066397159,1066397280"; pn[1066397280] = "1066397269,1066397534"; pn[1066397534] = "1066397280,1066397290"; pn[1066397290] = "1066397534,1066397527"; pn[1066397527] = "1066397290,1066397566"; pn[1066397566] = "1066397527,1066397664"; pn[1066397664] = "1066397566,1066397444"; pn[1066397444] = "1066397664,1066397502"; pn[1066397502] = "1066397444,1066397537"; pn[1066397537] = "1066397502,1066399122"; pn[1066399122] = "1066397537,1066399659"; pn[1066399659] = "1066399122,1066400170"; pn[1066400170] = "1066399659,1066400968"; pn[1066400968] = "1066400170,1066401238"; pn[1066401238] = "1066400968,1066401256"; pn[1066401256] = "1066401238,1066401303"; pn[1066401303] = "1066401256,1066401344"; pn[1066401344] = "1066401303,1066401482"; pn[1066401482] = "1066401344,1066401069"; pn[1066401069] = "1066401482,1066401395"; pn[1066401395] = "1066401069,1066401416"; pn[1066401416] = "1066401395,1066403267"; pn[1066403267] = "1066401416,1066401432"; pn[1066401432] = "1066403267,1066401869"; pn[1066401869] = "1066401432,1066402139"; pn[1066402139] = "1066401869,1066416118"; pn[1066416118] = "1066402139,1066540575"; pn[1066540575] = "1066416118,1066541914"; pn[1066541914] = "1066540575,1066402428"; pn[1066402428] = "1066541914,1066403339"; pn[1066403339] = "1066402428,1066403890"; pn[1066403890] = "1066403339,1066404013"; pn[1066404013] = "1066403890,1066405370"; pn[1066405370] = "1066404013,1066405396"; pn[1066405396] = "1066405370,1066405539"; pn[1066405539] = "1066405396,1066405706"; pn[1066405706] = "1066405539,1066404234"; pn[1066404234] = "1066405706,1066404635"; pn[1066404635] = "1066404234,1066404762"; pn[1066404762] = "1066404635,1066405231"; pn[1066405231] = "1066404762,1066405586"; pn[1066405586] = "1066405231,1066405697"; pn[1066405697] = "1066405586,1066405686"; pn[1066405686] = "1066405697,1066405734"; pn[1066405734] = "1066405686,1066405773"; pn[1066405773] = "1066405734,1066405836"; pn[1066405836] = "1066405773,1066419908"; pn[1066419908] = "1066405836,1066425350"; pn[1066425350] = "1066419908,1066427856"; pn[1066427856] = "1066425350,1066429009"; pn[1066429009] = "1066427856,1066468758"; pn[1066468758] = "1066429009,1066469220"; pn[1066469220] = "1066468758,1066469237"; pn[1066469237] = "1066469220,1066469262"; pn[1066469262] = "1066469237,1066469282"; pn[1066469282] = "1066469262,1066469309"; pn[1066469309] = "1066469282,1066469357"; pn[1066469357] = "1066469309,1066469414"; pn[1066469414] = "1066469357,1066469198"; pn[1066469198] = "1066469414,1066471537"; pn[1066471537] = "1066469198,1066471745"; pn[1066471745] = "1066471537,1066471893"; pn[1066471893] = "1066471745,1066471903"; pn[1066471903] = "1066471893,1066471946"; pn[1066471946] = "1066471903,1066472068"; pn[1066472068] = "1066471946,1066472076"; pn[1066472076] = "1066472068,1066472499"; pn[1066472499] = "1066472076,1066473416"; pn[1066473416] = "1066472499,1066473421"; pn[1066473421] = "1066473416,1066475237"; pn[1066475237] = "1066473421,1066472620"; pn[1066472620] = "1066475237,1066476775"; pn[1066476775] = "1066472620,1066477559"; pn[1066477559] = "1066476775,1066480528"; pn[1066480528] = "1066477559,1066480830"; pn[1066480830] = "1066480528,1066480971"; pn[1066480971] = "1066480830,1066477345"; pn[1066477345] = "1066480971,1066477627"; pn[1066477627] = "1066477345,1066480575"; pn[1066480575] = "1066477627,1066480583"; pn[1066480583] = "1066480575,1066480683"; pn[1066480683] = "1066480583,1066480716"; pn[1066480716] = "1066480683,1066488100"; pn[1066488100] = "1066480716,1066489702"; pn[1066489702] = "1066488100,1066489720"; pn[1066489720] = "1066489702,1066490217"; pn[1066490217] = "1066489720,1066490235"; pn[1066490235] = "1066490217,1066556910"; pn[1066556910] = "1066490235,1066556996"; pn[1066556996] = "1066556910,1066490543"; pn[1066490543] = "1066556996,1066490569"; pn[1066490569] = "1066490543,1066504626"; pn[1066504626] = "1066490569,1066536422"; pn[1066536422] = "1066504626,1066536476"; pn[1066536476] = "1066536422,1066540925"; pn[1066540925] = "1066536476,1066556295"; pn[1066556295] = "1066540925,1066557155"; pn[1066557155] = "1066556295,1066559023"; pn[1066559023] = "1066557155,1066562512"; pn[1066562512] = "1066559023,1066578176"; pn[1066578176] = "1066562512,1066578227"; pn[1066578227] = "1066578176,1066578829"; pn[1066578829] = "1066578227,1066579405"; pn[1066579405] = "1066578829,1066579430"; pn[1066579430] = "1066579405,1066579434"; pn[1066579434] = "1066579430,1066580065"; pn[1066580065] = "1066579434,1066597521"; pn[1066597521] = "1066580065,1066598372"; pn[1066598372] = "1066597521,1066599441"; pn[1066599441] = "1066598372,1066599559"; pn[1066599559] = "1066599441,1066714276"; pn[1066714276] = "1066599559,1066599771"; pn[1066599771] = "1066714276,1066599791"; pn[1066599791] = "1066599771,1066602508"; pn[1066602508] = "1066599791,1066714444"; pn[1066714444] = "1066602508,1066872970"; pn[1066872970] = "1066714444,1066873160"; pn[1066873160] = "1066872970,1066879558"; pn[1066879558] = "1066873160,1066881855"; pn[1066881855] = "1066879558,1066881000"; pn[1066881000] = "1066881855,1066881784"; pn[1066881784] = "1066881000,1066881832"; pn[1066881832] = "1066881784,1066882144"; pn[1066882144] = "1066881832,1066909265"; pn[1066909265] = "1066882144,1066927020"; pn[1066927020] = "1066909265,1066927002"; pn[1066927002] = "1066927020,1066927025"; pn[1066927025] = "1066927002,1066927225"; pn[1066927225] = "1066927025,1066931526"; pn[1066931526] = "1066927225,1066931575"; pn[1066931575] = "1066931526,1066931717"; pn[1066931717] = "1066931575,1066931850"; pn[1066931850] = "1066931717,1066933998"; pn[1066933998] = "1066931850,1066934016"; pn[1066934016] = "1066933998,1066931880"; pn[1066931880] = "1066934016,1066931906"; pn[1066931906] = "1066931880,1066933944"; pn[1066933944] = "1066931906,1066937607"; pn[1066937607] = "1066933944,1066932280"; pn[1066932280] = "1066937607,1066933025"; pn[1066933025] = "1066932280,1067333705"; pn[1067333705] = "1066933025,1067334314"; pn[1067334314] = "1067333705,1067334315"; pn[1067334315] = "1067334314,1067334319"; pn[1067334319] = "1067334315,1067334465"; pn[1067334465] = "1067334319,1067554579"; pn[1067554579] = "1067334465,1067751249"; pn[1067751249] = "1067554579,1067751772"; pn[1067751772] = "1067751249,1066389589"; // cached usernames pu[0] = guestphrase; pu[129742] = "P&y only"; pu[249728] = "Firelineman"; pu[294880] = "exrider84"; pu[277863] = "Big_Barr"; pu[140882] = "shinobi3"; pu[268128] = "Janss72"; pu[270098] = "Dbrisc"; pu[22477] = "nuts&bolts"; pu[189520] = "D.Short"; pu[114627] = "ToddB"; pu[168666] = "rdneckhillbilly"; pu[10244] = "bambikiller"; pu[147658] = "Outdoorsman_3"; pu[152545] = "DocMort"; pu[201543] = "adamst"; pu[18059] = "little buddy"; pu[280113] = "sjfuo"; pu[10644] = "IRISH_11"; pu[49413] = "lunk2002"; pu[281632] = "Scojen"; pu[200169] = "OHIOARCHER36"; pu[258811] = "Mitigator33"; pu[130455] = "Frederick D. Be"; pu[198227] = "jackshot"; pu[71669] = "rackmasterlgw"; pu[284044] = "leebone46"; pu[296941] = "Hoyt BH"; pu[288705] = "smcelheny"; pu[126623] = "ILOVE3D"; pu[163696] = "jb2678"; pu[271520] = "BearArcher1980"; pu[285078] = "johncraddock445"; pu[176841] = "kaj4"; pu[237572] = "Spurlucky"; pu[50271] = "WCH"; pu[82511] = "masterchef"; pu[125191] = "Skeeter 58"; pu[136724] = "spmnlvr"; pu[114560] = "montigre"; pu[177647] = "locusthill1831"; pu[2363] = "Predator"; pu[44924] = "fletched"; pu[126018] = "wpk"; pu[133163] = "matt3d"; pu[308397] = "Colesce"; pu[109313] = "mikesmith66"; pu[226357] = "JMLOWE"; pu[300268] = "pacsport"; pu[43575] = "Stump Shooter"; pu[10232] = "smokin\\\'dually"; pu[28457] = "waylonb19"; pu[252035] = "Fireman324"; pu[45132] = "Beentown"; pu[183295] = "milsy"; pu[11586] = "Bnbfishin"; pu[10552] = "trinibob"; pu[226189] = "jesses80"; pu[220742] = "HawgEnvy"; pu[263861] = "nathanb_23"; pu[67353] = "Callo21"; pu[40642] = "Doebuster"; pu[215795] = "Kateraman"; pu[38610] = "bigHUN"; pu[103766] = "airbourn"; pu[4857] = "sab323"; pu[199594] = "Fortyneck"; pu[117450] = "b2sandshee"; pu[155628] = "gotmike"; pu[130348] = "c5mrr270"; pu[58964] = "RatherBArchery"; pu[124583] = "crazy4bucks"; pu[303369] = "deer slayer 11"; pu[60675] = "knight stalker"; pu[92624] = "HOYTDKP"; pu[305527] = "mwhitetailfreak"; pu[21989] = "SpotShy"; pu[274027] = "ilhunter997"; pu[292769] = "youngnick"; pu[310378] = "redtamayo"; pu[301534] = "jwrigley"; pu[110018] = "nexus"; pu[120546] = "eskimoohunt"; pu[280508] = "Pynewilly"; pu[236134] = "Nick79"; pu[56911] = "juspassinthru"; pu[266284] = "Rhawk86"; pu[17200] = "gethuntin"; pu[104369] = "soaringeagle"; pu[104114] = "GeNeRAL_HuNTR87"; pu[77918] = "al302852"; pu[33894] = "Hana Pa\\\'a"; pu[183511] = "jrdrees"; // -->

1. ## Hey Nuts &Bolts!

Hey Alan, how about starting a daily or weekly thread where you teach us something new everytime?? You choose the topic. That way we wont have to stalk your posts to find the info that we all crave. We all appreciate the stuff you teach us. This would just give us a daily or weekly lesson. Pretty please????

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