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Thread: Hey Nuts &Bolts!

  1. #26

    Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?

    Here is a thread...

    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1942277

    where Mitigator33 asked
    "Draw Force Curve?"

    Mitigator33's question:

    I put my 2013 Answer on the draw board with my Pelouze digital scale.
    At first it was maxed out at 73 lbs.

    It loaded quick then held in the 69-72 range
    for much of the draw cycle finally
    dropping into a short valley and
    having an 18lb holding weight.

    Draw stops were all the way out. 30.25" draw.

    Once dialing down to 70lb draw weight
    it was a lot different cycle.
    Draw stops all the way out 30.25" draw

    it peaked early for only a few inches then
    let off quick falling into the valley
    which was much longer and had a 15.5-16lb hold weight.

    The question I am having is what else can be done
    if anything
    to change the draw cycle.

    I am new to bow tuning.

    The cams are synced perfect at this point
    but it was amazing to me the difference in what 3 lbs made.

    I'm not really needing a change just on an educational mission.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  2. #27

    Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?....(continued)

    So,
    all Mitigator33 did,
    as relax the limb bolts slightly AWAY from maximum...

    so the draw weight = 73 lbs (limb bolts at maximum)
    and
    now the draw weight = 70 lbs (limb bolts slightly away from maximum).

    The FEEL of the draw cycle changed very noticeably.

    What happened?
    Why?


    You can tweak the BALANCE between holding weight and draw weight...

    by ADDING or REMOVING twists in the bowstring.

    ADD TWISTS to both ends of the bowstring,
    to shorten the bowstring.

    You can try just 1 extra twist say at each end.
    You can try say 3 extra twists on TOP and say 5-6 twists extra on BOTTOM.

    Anytime you SHORTEN a bowstring,
    you SHIFT the balance between holding weight and draw weight....

    the draw weight goes DOWN slightly
    and
    the holding weight goes UP slightly.

    So,
    guess what happens if you go the other direction?

    If you LENGTHEN a bowstring, just by a few twists...

    then,
    you AGAIN, shift the balance between HOLDING weight and DRAW weight.

    When you LENGTHEN a bowstring,
    even by just a few twists at each end,
    the HOLDING weight goes DOWN and the DRAW WEIGHT goes UP...slightly.


    This is completely due to cam starting rotation position,
    and
    the LEVERAGE created by the changing radius of the cam,
    depending on the position of the cam,
    when the bow is at rest.

    A CAM is just a crow bar...

    with an ever changing length.

    If you only look at the 3-o'clock position of the top cam,
    and the cam rotates,
    you can see that the diameter or radius of the cam CHANGES as the cam rotates,
    while you pull the bowstring from AT REST, to FULL DRAW.

    A CAM is just a variable length CROW-BAR.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  3. #28

    Understanding Draw Force Curve...What is a DFC?....(continued)

    Mitigator33 has a 2013 Answer.

    Starting draw weight was 73 lbs with limb bolts at maximum.
    Adjusted draw weight was 70 lbs, with limb bolts slightly away from maximum.

    Here is a brief table of his specs, and short comments on what happened, and why.


    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    northern wisconsin
    Posts
    542
    Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by adamst View Post
    Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?
    IN SPEC is just the beginning.

    We fine tune to GO OUT of spec on PURPOSE.

    Results is what we tune a bow for,
    for a CUSTOM fit.

    In Spec is only a GUIDE.

    In Spec is not the FINAL GOAL.

    Shoooting the BEST arrow groups of your life,
    is the goal.

    This is the purpose of KITCHEN SINK TUNING,
    to show you how much to go OUT OF SPEC,
    to get a new PERSONAL best score (if you are a target shooter)
    and
    to get to a new PERSONAL BEST arrow group size (accuracy).
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by adamst View Post
    Nuts and Bolts i was under the assumtion you always wanted your bow to be in spec via axle to axle and brace. So when your fine tuning your DL via bottom of the buss cable it is going to through the bow out of spec correct? Is it ok to leave it out of spec or do we need to put it back into spec some how?
    IN SPEC for ATA is only a GUIDE to make sure you are hitting max draw weight,
    when the limb bolts are at maximum.

    So,
    making sure you hit 60 lbs of draw weight,
    with your limb bolts at maximum,
    is the ONLY real purpose for checking ATA.

    Checking brace height,
    is a lazy man's way to confirm that we are at the factory spec for cam starting rotation position.

    MUCH more accurate,
    to do the CREEP TUNING

    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tuning
    (see POST #15)

    to find YOUR sweet spot for the cam rotation position,
    so you get the BEST RESULTS...

    when do the test in the CREEP TUNING tuning method.

    RESULTS are what we are after.

    Not just hitting factory spec for ATA and Brace Height...
    cuz FACTORY spec may not get YOU the best results,
    when YOU shoot your bow.

    Finding YOUR sweet spot,
    tweaking YOUR bow...so YOU get the best results,
    is what we are after.

    If YOUR bones, your body structure,
    YOUR collar bone width,
    YOUR length of your forearm,
    YOUR length of your upper arm,
    YOUR shoulder width,
    YOUR length of your fingers,
    the way YOU grip the handle release...

    ALL of these things may not LINE UP directly behind the arrow, when YOU are at full draw...

    if we are only setting draw length at 1/2-inch SIZES.

    So,
    this is why we go OUT of spec, if we NEED to..

    by tweaking the ATA AWAY from factory spec, (adjusting the twists on the buss cable)
    maybe only 1 TWIST extra (we shrink the ATA to extend the DL up to 1/4-inch MORE)...
    maybe only 2 TWISTS less (we grow the ATA to shrink the DL up to 1/4-inch LESS)...

    we tweak the DL,
    we MICRO-TUNE the DL,
    to see if we can get slightly BETTER results.

    Focus on RESULTS.

    Don't worry so much about hitting factory spec.
    That's just the beginning of tuning.

    Going OUT of Spec,
    with a recipe,
    with a process,
    step by step
    (KITCHEN SINK TUNING)
    and then
    (CREEP TUNING)...

    so you get better results
    is where we are headed.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Show-Me State..on a little pond called Lake Pomme De Terre
    Posts
    3,463
    Very true,a bow will operate efficiently,even when out of spec,because it is static and will always do the same thing everytime,no matter how it specs out.The goal is to spec it out to fit and shoot BEST for you,who cares if IT is out of spec.
    Taxidermist/ commercial tannery owner and bow tuning shop 32 yrs and running... I shoot them all,and just pick the one that likes me!!!!

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    northern wisconsin
    Posts
    542
    Awesome anwer thanks N&B makes perfect sense.

  9. #34
    I cant get enough of this info! If only I could retain it lol. Thanks a bunch N&B.

  10. #35
    thanks n&b

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Cincy, OH
    Posts
    1,160
    N & B can you walk me through bare shaft tuning a binary cam? Particularly a Prime?

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Staples, Minnesota
    Posts
    1,108
    Thanks a bunch! Always great info, and so EASY to read the way you type it out.

    '12 LH Insanity CPXL 30.5/70, Custom CBE Tek Hunter, Limbdriver
    '09 LH GT500 30/70 Ripcord, Copper John
    In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity- Albert Einstein

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Zellwood Fl.
    Posts
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    Irish the info you seek probably already exist do a search

  14. #39
    i'm in

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    NE Alabama
    Posts
    648

    Hey Nuts &Bolts!

    In for later


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "The price of victory is high but so are the rewards" - Paul "Bear" Bryant
    2013 Bowtech Insanity CPX 70# 29.75"/QAD HDX 28" VAP V1 457g
    QAD Exodus 125G/BG Ascent/Vegance Head 3 Pin slider/Paradigm Carbon Shadow stab

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by nuts&bolts View Post
    I'm semi-retired,
    working only half time.

    I love to research a question,
    so just post up a question,
    or send me a pm...

    and then,
    I can come up with the answer,
    or suggestions to try.
    Alan,
    Hello...it has been some time since we conversed. I always admire the analytical thinking...some do not understand what it takes but I do. Okay...I have a question for those that want to learn....we talk about tuning bows...I know you already addressed most of this but when it comes to tuning a split buss cable such as on a bowtech then what do we really want to do as ....let us just talk physics...momentum and the continuum...that should get your brain going as you and I have exchanged in this field before. Archery is fascinating in the respect that we can propel an object at a target...and we always wish to know at what impact...KE it will do the best. For tournament it is different as we can lessen the FOC to achieve a properly weighted arrow but in a hunting venue it is different...all seem to want a large FOC such as 12-15%....why. Momentum is movement of weight at a given object but KE is ...Kenetic Enery,...is the force so to speak. I hear so many arguments as to which is better but what is truly the best?...does anyone really know. I am rambling now but will say hello again. Cheers!
    Fred

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In an Oak tree in iowa
    Posts
    7,452
    Alan you can be a rich man if you just write a book! Thanks for the info. I bet we can wear you out with questions.
    Owner: **Precision Tune ** When good enough just ain't good enough!

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Thousand Islands, NY
    Posts
    271

    Hey Nuts &Bolts!

    Thanks-in

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick D. Be View Post
    Alan,
    Hello...it has been some time since we conversed. I always admire the analytical thinking...some do not understand what it takes but I do. Okay...I have a question for those that want to learn....we talk about tuning bows...I know you already addressed most of this but when it comes to tuning a split buss cable such as on a bowtech then what do we really want to do as ....let us just talk physics...momentum and the continuum...that should get your brain going as you and I have exchanged in this field before. Archery is fascinating in the respect that we can propel an object at a target...and we always wish to know at what impact...KE it will do the best. For tournament it is different as we can lessen the FOC to achieve a properly weighted arrow but in a hunting venue it is different...all seem to want a large FOC such as 12-15%....why. Momentum is movement of weight at a given object but KE is ...Kenetic Enery,...is the force so to speak. I hear so many arguments as to which is better but what is truly the best?...does anyone really know. I am rambling now but will say hello again. Cheers!
    Fred
    Hello Fred:

    The physics is simple.

    If your goal is to reach your target as fast as possible,
    you want to maximize arrow speed....so select the LIGHTEST weight projectile,
    that will give you the necessary stiffness to fly properly (proper spine).

    If your goal is to reach your target (animal you are hunting)
    and you want to maximize the probability of a PASS-THROUGH,
    then,
    you want momentum...the more momentum, then
    the GREATER the difficulty to slow this object down....(your broadhead).

    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net


  20. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,322
    Once again,excellent thread.
    Thanks N&B.

  21. #46
    just marking thread

  22. #47
    N&B, you've done it again. You got me to sit in front of this screen longer than I intended, and it was worth every minute.

    Looking forward to more.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
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    montezuma indiana
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    Great thread N&B is a GENIOUS!

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    2,729
    Why is it I never tire of reading N&B threads. Problem is when I read them before I go to bed I have a hard time getting to sleep cause I can't wait to try and tune again.
    Team PSE, PSE Militia, DS Advantage sight Team FeatherVision

  25. #50
    n&b. This forum would not be the same with out you.
    2012 hoyt vector turbo. 71# 29" 2013 pro comp elite xl
    hha ol5519
    ld pro-v

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