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  1. #51

    Bare Shaft Tuning a Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by IRISH_11 View Post
    N & B can you walk me through bare shaft tuning a binary cam? Particularly a Prime?
    When we bareshaft tune...

    we are really looking to make the horizontal nock travel as TIGHT as we can...
    try to minimize the LEFT-RIGHT misses for our arrow groups.

    So,
    if we are talking the older binary cam bows, with NO direct connection to the axles...

    then,
    "Yoke Tuning" is a tool we do not have access to.

    Soooooooo,
    we have to check the obvious things first.

    LIMB deflection imbalance.

    SWAP the top split limbs, left and right,
    and see if this helps,
    if you have a split limb bow (total of 4 limbs).

    Sometimes I see folks who have a binary style cam bow,
    and this particular bow may only have 2 limbs...

    and they are having troubles with a horizontal paper tear.

    Well,
    swap the upper and lower limb,
    and see if this helps. The limb fork may not be perfectly centered,
    and if so,
    then swapping the upper and lower limb may SHIFT the cam enough SIDEWAYS (we are talking thousandths of an inch)
    that this MIGHT help with the horizontal paper tear.


    Sooooo,
    after we exhaust the simple things...

    then,
    we can try shift the cam sideways, towards the cable guard.

    So,
    a right handed bow,
    if you have a shim kit...

    then, we try and move the cam physically towards the right side of the axle.

    This SHIFT to one side of the axle,
    is only THOUSANDTHS of an inch.

    Ultimately,
    we can get the MOST bang for the buck,
    by tweaking the bow DL setting,
    in order to try and get your release forearm (think LASER POINTER...think FLASHLIGHT)
    to get into PERFECT alignment
    directly behind the arrow,
    when you are at full draw.


    So,
    to use the EXTREME example...



    If THIS fella was shooting a binary cam bow (no yoke cables)
    or wash shooting say a PRIME bow...

    then,
    no amount of using the shim kit to move the cams over to the right
    no amount of flipping the top limb for the bottom limb
    no amount of swapping the TOP LEFT limb for the TOP RIGHT limb is going to help this fella.

    The mis-alignment of the release side forearm is JUST too much (think FLASHLIGHT..think LASER POINTER).

    The left paper tear is going to be HUGE.

    The bareshaft is going to miss MILES to the right of the fletched arrows.
    Ok.

    Maybe not MILES....just say 12 FEET to the right.

    The ONLY true fix for this amount of MIS-ALIGNMENT of the release side forearm...
    is to get the draw length SHORTER
    is to keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as before...

    is to CHANGE the DISTANCE of the ELBOW (release side) to the grip,
    is to GET the DISTANCE from the ELBOW (release side) PHYSICALLY CLOSER to the grip,
    by shortening the DRAW LENGTH the correct amount.

    When we SHORTEN the bow DRAW LENGTH
    (find the correct FIXED DL cam)
    (find the correct DL module)..

    then,
    the release forearm should SWING AROUND the shoulder like a DOOR HINGE,
    and we end up looking more like this....




    So,
    when we figure out what DL module to use...

    we are STILL,
    as much as 1/4-inch AWAY from the PERFECT DL,
    cuz...

    DL MODULES only come in HALF inch sizes.


    So,
    look at POST #14
    for MICRO-ADJUSTING your draw length..
    .

    when we FINE TUNE,
    when we DIAL IN the bow DL setting,
    to get the ABSOLUTE best results.



    We can tweak the cables on your PRIME...
    shorter ATA will make the DL slightly LONGER...
    tweaking the cables shorter ONE TWIST at a time (adjust both cables).

    We can tweak the cables on your PRIME...
    longer ATA will make the DL slightly SHORTER...
    tweaking the cable LONGER ONE TWIST at a time (adjust both cables).

    You can also
    adjust the bowstring LONGER (adjust half twists at both ends) to LENGTHEN the draw length..to MICRO-TUNE...up to 1/4-inch LONGER.

    You can also
    adjust the bowstring SHORTER (adjust half twists at both ends) to SHORTEN the draw length...to MICRO-TUNE...up to 1/4-inch SHORTER.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net


  2. #52
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    At superhero at his best!!!!!

  3. #53
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    for later

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by leebone46 View Post
    just marking thread
    x-2
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  5. #55

    Bare Shaft Tuning a Prime...(continued)

    Quote Originally Posted by IRISH_11 View Post
    N & B can you walk me through bare shaft tuning a binary cam? Particularly a Prime?
    So,
    I would use the parts of KITCHEN SINK TUNING
    that apply to your Prime.

    Just skip the steps about twisting the yoke legs,
    and fast forward to the MICRO TUNING the bowstring or the cables to
    adjust the draw length, up to 1/4-inch.

    So,
    portable target.

    Hang a string with a weight on the end.
    Pin the string to the portable target.

    Step back only 5 feet in your garage.

    Now fire a fletched arrow at the weighted string.
    Tweak the sight pins windage setting (tiny amounts) until you get THIS result.






    Then,
    when you can split the string fibers with your FLETCHED arrow
    (I used a spool of Dacron B50 bowstring material cuz it is LOOSELY woven)

    then....

    just try again, with a BARESHAFT,
    shooting from only 5 feet away.

    IF you TUNE the bow DL setting...
    if the bareshaft misses off to the RIGHT (assuming you are a RIGHT handed shooter)
    if the bareshaft misses RIGHT...

    we need to tweak the draw length setting SHORTER...
    (just remember keep the bow arm ELBOW BEND EXACTLY the same as always, as you go shorter in DL)...
    cuz this is the ONLY WAY you will get your elbow to SWING AROUND your shoulder like a DOOR HINGE.


    Sooooooooooooo,
    when you get the DL dialed in...
    you will get THIS result..





    when shooting at 5 feet.

    Only count your GOOD SHOTS.
    Try and use the bareshaft to touch the weighted string again and again.

    It is EXCELLENT form practice.


    When you can TOUCH the weighted string with your bareshaft again and again at 5 feet...

    give 10 feet a whirl.

    This is a real CHALLENGE.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  6. #56
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    Need to come back to this. Really great job N&B, & thanks to P&Y for asking.

    N&B would you ever consider running a real bow mechanic class with students in person?
    Darton Pro 3800, HHA 5019, Muzzy zero-effect
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurlucky View Post
    Need to come back to this. Really great job N&B, & thanks to P&Y for asking.

    N&B would you ever consider running a real bow mechanic class with students in person?
    I do already.

    Folks in California setup a time and come visit for a day or several days.

    Fleahop flew in from Alabama and brought along 4 ProElites...
    the 4th one was just a riser, loose limbs (variety of lengths) and several sizes of Spiral cams.

    Not only did we tweak Fleahop (shooting technique, fine tuned a few things here and there)
    we also built up the 4th ProElite to EXACTLY the way he likes the feel (custom rigging to spec)
    to get a particular draw length, to get a particular holding weight/draw weight.

    Built the rigging several times, to get it JUST right.

    Now, may just be coincidence,
    but Fleahop won 3 different State of Alabama championships,
    several months later, for the FIRST time.


    So,
    come one down, anytime.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  8. #58
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    Nuts and bolts what you contribute to this site is unbelievable, on behalf of everyone thank you. I couldn't imagine how much time you have put into helping everyone.

  9. #59
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    Thank you N&B. I would be interested in that class. I have shoulder surgery planned for 2/15/13 so I will be out of archery commission for a while. Thanks again, you are a great friend to AT & archery in general.
    Darton Pro 3800, HHA 5019, Muzzy zero-effect
    Darton DS 4500, Axcel 4500, HHA scope, Limbdriver pro
    Bow Time Machine
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

  10. #60
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    What determined the five feet for the bare shaft? Why not longer?

  11. #61
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    Alan is da man!
    I cut my arrows twice and they're still too short.

    You cannot hit what you cannot see.

  12. #62
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    Hundreds of reasons to join AT. N&B is hands down the number ONE reason. I don't think he even realizes how many peoples archery lives are affected everytime he writes. Every time I see his name I START READING.
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    To my sons: I find it amazing that as I try to teach you how to be a man, you are doing the same for me.

  13. #63
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    next question: school us on correct anchor point position. please and thank you!
    Owner: **Precision Tune ** When good enough just ain't good enough!

  14. #64
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    When the student is ready for more information, he/she will ask the correct question(s). If the question(s) does not arise, then they are not yet ready....
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  15. #65
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    Thank you Alan for the knowledge!
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  16. #66
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  17. #67
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    Thank you N & B. I have always had trouble understanding the tuning process for binary cams. I myself am a big fan of two cam bows. Never had a problem with them. Way more tunability with a two cam bow. Why the industry has gone away from them is beyond me especially with the advances we have had in string materials over the years.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by montigre View Post
    When the student is ready for more information, he/she will ask the correct question(s). If the question(s) does not arise, then they are not yet ready....
    Many things exist which are unknown to the student. And therefore he/she cannot ask about the unknown. Knowledge is power. I seek knowledge to gain power. How's that oh wise one? lol
    Owner: **Precision Tune ** When good enough just ain't good enough!

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by P&y only View Post
    next question: school us on correct anchor point position. please and thank you!
    Best place to position your anchor is just below a school of crappie.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by spmnlvr View Post
    Hundreds of reasons to join AT. N&B is hands down the number ONE reason. I don't think he even realizes how many peoples archery lives are affected everytime he writes. Every time I see his name I START READING.
    X 1000 thanks nuts&bolts
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  21. #71
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    Alan, I was curious to see if you have ever experimented with after market cable rods ( ARC-TEC , TILT-Tamer) to reduce the amount of lean one might have to put in the the yoke to achieve bare-shaft tune. As always your help is much appreciated.

    Matt

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Spurlucky View Post
    Thank you N&B. I would be interested in that class. I have shoulder surgery planned for 2/15/13 so I will be out of archery commission for a while. Thanks again, you are a great friend to AT & archery in general.
    Come on down and visit sometime.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  23. #73

    Why 5 feet for the shooting DL test?

    Quote Originally Posted by masterchef View Post
    What determined the five feet for the bare shaft? Why not longer?
    The distance is nothing special.

    When I was figuring out my "recipe" for KITCHEN SINK TUNING,
    I was in my garage,
    and I have a 5 foot long shooting corridor.

    So,
    a portable target,
    a string with some washers on the end (I used a spool of Dacron bowstring..B50)
    and
    I figured that EVERYONE can find a shooting corridor in their garage that is 5 feet long.

    If the draw length is slightly long...
    we can compensate with the yoke legs (adding a twist on the top axle, left side...removing a twist on the top axle, right side).

    So,
    I discovered that even as CLOSE as 5 feet,
    this simple test can diagnose this SLIGHTLY TOO LONG DL condition.

    MAX of 2 extra twists, top axle, left side,
    MAX of removing 2 twists, top axle, right side.

    Sooooooooo,
    if you pass the 5 foot shooting test,
    then...

    for the adventurous folks,
    try the bareshaft and fletched shooting test
    at 10 feet.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  24. #74

    Anchor Position

    Quote Originally Posted by P&y only View Post
    next question: school us on correct anchor point position. please and thank you!
    Anchor position....

    is ONE piece in the puzzle.

    First,
    we have to understand shooting posture,
    and
    that shooting posture is...

    FRONT HALF
    and
    BACK HALF.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

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  25. #75

    Anchor Position is part of the FRONT HALF of shooting posture

    Quote Originally Posted by P&y only View Post
    next question: school us on correct anchor point position. please and thank you!
    FRONT HALF OF SHOOTING POSTURE
    One piece of the puzzle = anchor...facial touch points...facial reference points

    I use this picture of Randy Ulmer all the time,
    and yet,
    I believe I have confused folks,
    what I was trying to convey.





    Randy Ulmer is a big guy.

    So,
    folks get confused about the STRING ANGLE,
    and the nock position.

    Folks REALLY REALLY focus on the string touching the nose.

    Ok.

    So,
    folks LIKE the string touching the NOSE.

    So,
    we really NEED the NOCK to be in a particular position on the face.

    So,
    we really NEED the END of the arrow shaft on a particular position of the face.


    So,
    we really NEED this yellow line (marking the END of the arrow shaft) to be directly underneath the FRONT CURVATURE of the eyeball.


    If you have a REALLY REALLY SHORT ATA bow,
    if you have a REALLY SHARP string angle,
    if the peep sight is a HUGE distance from your eyeball...

    and you "INCREASE THE DL..cuz the string has just GOTTA touch da nose"...

    well,
    then,
    the nock is going to end up WAY BACK on your head,
    the nock is going to end up back BEHIND your eyeball, along the cheek bones.


    So,
    let's see what happens,
    when the nock ends up BEHIND your eyeball, along the cheek bones.




    Sooooooo,
    the farther back you MOVE the nock,
    BEHIND your eyeball,
    the CURVATURE of your head gets in the way
    and the ONLY way you can see through your peep sight...

    is to TILT YOUR HEAD sideways.


    So,
    the END of the arrow shaft
    really must be directly UNDER the front curvature of your eyeball,
    cuz this is the ONLY way you can look IN LINE, directly ABOVE the arrow.

    LINE of sight.

    FRONT half of the shooting posture,
    is setting the BOW DRAW LENGTH so that YOU accomodate the amount of bow arm bend.

    MORE BEND in the bow arm?
    Shorter bow DL is required, to set the END of the arrow shaft directly UNDER the FRONT CURVATURE OF the eyeball.

    (NOTICE I never mention the string touching da nose).

    If you are a big guy like Randy Ulmer,
    and you shoot a 30-inch or 28-inch ATA bow,
    the string is NOT going to touch da NOSE...

    and have the end of the arrow shaft directly UNDER the front curvature of the eyeball,
    so you can maintain line of sight aiming.

    If you really want the string to touch da nose,
    then,
    get a LONGER ATA bow,
    to fit the LENGTH of your nose
    so the end of the arrow shaft can be under the corner of your mouth,
    and the string touches YOUR nose.

    This is understanding the FRONT HALF of shooting posture.


    Since your eyeballs do NOT BULGE MORE some days
    and
    since your eyeballs do NOT BULGE LESS on other days...
    and
    since your SKULL is the same shape EVERY day...

    as long as you have a consistent shooting posture...







    as long as you have a consistent bow arm elbow bend....

    then,
    the FRONT HALF of your shooting posture remains the SAME.

    (how you set your feet, affects how much DL you need).

    First picture, we have 2nd Nature in a VERY OPEN shooting posture (shoulders pointed OFF to the LEFT of arrow flight)....so this requires a SHORTER draw length on the bow.
    Second picture, we have 2nd Nature in a parallel or NEUTRAL shooting posture (shoulders parallel to the arrow flight)...so this requires a slightly LONGER draw length on the bow.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

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