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Thread: Hey Nuts &Bolts!

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by redtamayo View Post
    All the above I get. My question is, should I set my hybrid top cam lean to zero at full draw before doing any of the above? Or more specifically, as I use a 2012 Carbon Matrix RKT (Carbon Riser), should I adjust my top cam to have just a skosh (borrowing your word) of left cam lean at full draw? As a right hand shooter.

    Thank you, you have been a source of a wealth of information.

    Regards,
    Red
    Just start with what you have.

    Tweaking the top axle, changing the cam lean amount,
    is a TINY adjustment,
    to avoid the HARD work of CHANGING the draw length (twisting the bowstring).

    Most folks really hate to admit that their draw length is TOO LONG.

    So,
    this is why I limit the tweaking of the top axle to 2 twists extra (one side)
    and removing 2 twists (other side).

    If your cam lean is pretty good,
    then,
    just SKIP this step,
    and go STRAIGHT to dialing in the bowstring twists.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  2. #202
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    Thank you so much for your very detailed reply. I appreciate it.

    Regards,
    red

  3. #203
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    Marked no 143-145

  4. #204
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    N&B,

    It is my understanding that the majority archers generally agree that an arrow will fly best with an FOC in the range of 7%-15%, with indoor short distance shooters opting for

    the lower end of the spectrum and outdoor long distance tending more high end of the spectrum. I understand the flight issues you might get shooting a very low FOC arrow

    or an arrow that has rear-of center of gravity, but, do you know of any negative flight characteristics of arrows with an "extreme-FOC" say 20% and up?

    I know this is a hotly debated topic, I was just wondering if you have experimented with this, or if you are aware of any science or information concerning the flight

    characteristics of EFOC arrows 20% and higher.
    My other bow is a Marlin 1895G 45-70 Gov't open sights
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiobooners View Post
    In all seriousness I do hope ppl understand that a deer is not worth losing your dignity over.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortyneck View Post
    N&B,

    It is my understanding that the majority archers generally agree that an arrow will fly best with an FOC in the range of 7%-15%, with indoor short distance shooters opting for

    the lower end of the spectrum and outdoor long distance tending more high end of the spectrum. I understand the flight issues you might get shooting a very low FOC arrow

    or an arrow that has rear-of center of gravity, but, do you know of any negative flight characteristics of arrows with an "extreme-FOC" say 20% and up?

    I know this is a hotly debated topic, I was just wondering if you have experimented with this, or if you are aware of any science or information concerning the flight

    characteristics of EFOC arrows 20% and higher.
    Nope.

    INdoor shooters,
    if you mean 18 meters for FITA indoor
    or
    if you mean 20 yards for NFAA spots (5 spot targets)
    or
    if you means 20 yards for Vegas 3 spot targets...

    nobody shooting spots goes for the 7% FOC, when shooting 20 yards.

    VERY VERY difficult to design an arrow combination to hit 7% FOC
    and have the "proper" arrow stiffness.

    ONLY 3D shooters,
    who demand MAXIMUM speed,
    and want their arrow to hit the 5 grains total arrow weight, per pound of draw weight limit...

    will try and design a combination of components
    to make a 300 grain arrow,
    for a 60 lb draw weight bow,
    AND
    have the arrow still be STIFF enough to fly properly.

    It can be done,
    to make a 300 grain total weight arrow
    fly correctly, and accurately,
    from a 60 lb draw weight bow....
    and the FOC will get down the 7% range.

    So,
    for INDOOR shooting,
    at say 20 yards....

    yes,
    EXTREME FOC has very interesting results...

    especially for BAREBOW recurve shooters.

    BAREBOW recurve shooters,
    all want the POINT OF AIM,
    to be on the bullseye at 20 yards.

    The only way to do this,
    well,
    actually two ways....

    a) use a LOW draw weight recurve bow, to get the arrow speed, REALLY SLOW,
    ....use a super long arrow (which is also going to be WAY WAY too stiff)
    ....so you start using ridiculously heavy weight in front,
    ....so, the LONGEST aluminum arrow you can find,
    ....extra heavy inserts
    ....250 or 300 grain screw in field points.

    or

    b) shoot HIGH draw weight recurve bows, say in the 50 lb range and higher
    ....use a super long arrow (which is also going to be WAY WAY too stiff)
    ....so you start using ridiculously heavy weight in front,
    ....so, the LONGEST aluminum arrow you can find,
    ....extra heavy inserts
    ....the appropriate HEAVY field point to get to "proper spine".


    So,
    no negative effects for a TARGET shooter.

    When the FOC gets EXTREME, say 20% or even MUCH MUCH more, like say 25% or even MORE...

    hehehehehe,

    the groups get soo tight,
    the arrow speed is SO SLOW....

    but the momentum is ridiculously HIGH...

    I shot a single spot,
    with some experimental EXTREME FOC arrows
    (low draw weight, Easton X7 2512...and a really really heavy field point in front)
    that the field point cut a gash 2-inches long in the sidewall of my X7 arrows.

    Kinda cool looking. No bounce outs.
    Aluminum arrows get CREASED or SLICED if you shoot single spot.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuts&bolts View Post
    ...I shot a single spot,
    with some experimental EXTREME FOC arrows
    (low draw weight, Easton X7 2512...and a really really heavy field point in front)
    that the field point cut a gash 2-inches long in the sidewall of my X7 arrows.

    Kinda cool looking. No bounce outs.
    Aluminum arrows get CREASED or SLICED if you shoot single spot.


    Thanks for the answers!
    My other bow is a Marlin 1895G 45-70 Gov't open sights
    Quote Originally Posted by ohiobooners View Post
    In all seriousness I do hope ppl understand that a deer is not worth losing your dignity over.

  7. #207
    Nuts & Bolts,

    I have learned a great deal from your posts and appreciate your time and effort to educate the masses (i.e., me). I was going to do a little Kitchen Sink Tuning this morning as I just purchased a new set of strings and cams (better DL fit) for the old Katera and had them instaled by a well known archery shop here in southern California. After getting to the range early this morning, I could not get anything to work regardless of the adjustments. Frustrated, I placed the bow in the case and headed home to just chalk it up to a poor day of shooting or just bad form. After breakfast, I started looking at my bow and found the following issues:

    Rest - had been moved and not tightened down or set screw tightened, minor pivoting in an up- and down-motion during course of shooting.

    Cam Lean - new string is a fixed yoke and the upper cam leans throughout draw cycle (see photo below)
    cam lean.jpg

    And the Kicker!!!

    Limbs not all the way seated into limb pockets on upper set of limbs. Started taking measurements of ATA, brace height and tiller and notice the upper tiller is 1/4 inch longer. Could not figure it out for a while and then the gap (see picture 2) catches my eye. Can't imagine that would make any difference (dripping with sarcasm). For reference, here is a picture of the bottom limb pocket.

    bad limb.jpggood limb.jpg

    Heading over to a different shop now, because the other one is not open on Sunday.

    Time to buy a bow press and start learning.....

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge,

    Chris
    '08 Hoyt Katera, Limb Driver, Spot Hogg Hunter, Sims, Beman Team Realtree MFX, Grim Reaper Hades
    '14 Hoyt Faktor, QAD HDX, Spot Hogg Tommy Hogg, Fuse Carbon Blade, Easton Bloodline, Slick Trick Std.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by nexus View Post
    Nuts & Bolts,

    I have learned a great deal from your posts and appreciate your time and effort to educate the masses (i.e., me). I was going to do a little Kitchen Sink Tuning this morning as I just purchased a new set of strings and cams (better DL fit) for the old Katera and had them instaled by a well known archery shop here in southern California. After getting to the range early this morning, I could not get anything to work regardless of the adjustments. Frustrated, I placed the bow in the case and headed home to just chalk it up to a poor day of shooting or just bad form. After breakfast, I started looking at my bow and found the following issues:

    Rest - had been moved and not tightened down or set screw tightened, minor pivoting in an up- and down-motion during course of shooting.

    Cam Lean - new string is a fixed yoke and the upper cam leans throughout draw cycle (see photo below)
    cam lean.jpg

    And the Kicker!!!

    Limbs not all the way seated into limb pockets on upper set of limbs. Started taking measurements of ATA, brace height and tiller and notice the upper tiller is 1/4 inch longer. Could not figure it out for a while and then the gap (see picture 2) catches my eye. Can't imagine that would make any difference (dripping with sarcasm). For reference, here is a picture of the bottom limb pocket.

    bad limb.jpggood limb.jpg

    Heading over to a different shop now, because the other one is not open on Sunday.

    Time to buy a bow press and start learning.....

    Thanks again for sharing your knowledge,

    Chris
    OUCH.

    Chris,
    send me a pm,
    and I can call you,
    and walk you through the repairs,
    if you are interested...

    when you purchase a portable or full size press.

    You will need a press that has enough capacity
    to COMPLETELY relax the limbs.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  9. #209
    Thanks for the offer.

    I took the bow over to the other shop and we set the limbs in the pockets and corrected the cam lean. Used a draw board to try and check cam timing and noticed my new cams (new to me - used) were not hitting the draw stops correctly. The upper cam was not touching the cable at all, and appeared to advance completely past the cable. Took our collective minds a little while to figure out that the upper cam was slightly out of square. Once we placed a straight edge on the side of the cam we could see the warp. This probably explains why the other shop had the cam leaning so hard to one side, it forced the stop towards the cable at full draw. Of course, I would have preferred a call that stated, "there is a problem and we should keep the old cams on the bow for now if you want to keep shooting".

    Anyways, I'm going to get a press and put my old cams back on and order some new ones from Hoyt. Lesson learned.

    Chris
    '08 Hoyt Katera, Limb Driver, Spot Hogg Hunter, Sims, Beman Team Realtree MFX, Grim Reaper Hades
    '14 Hoyt Faktor, QAD HDX, Spot Hogg Tommy Hogg, Fuse Carbon Blade, Easton Bloodline, Slick Trick Std.

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
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    1,193
    Quote Originally Posted by nuts&bolts View Post
    So,
    when you can get a fletched arrow to NAIL a weighted string,
    and
    when you can get a bareshaft to ALSO touch the weighted string...

    when shooting at 5 feet,
    then,
    your draw length is dialed in.

    Single cam bow,
    twin cam bow,
    hybrid cam bow...

    any bow with a buss cable (cable with 3 end loops, where two of the loops attach to the top axle),
    you can tweak the draw length...

    by shortening or lengthening the buss cable (add or remove twists at the bottom of the buss cable).


    Single cam bow,
    twin cam bow,
    hybrid cam bow,
    binary cam bow...

    you can also adjust the bow DL setting, by ADDING/REMOVING twists from the bowstring itself
    (add/remove twists from both ends to keep the peep sight pointed dead straight ahead).


    The key thing to remember
    is that when you ADJUST the bow DL setting,
    keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same as before,
    cuz we are trying to make the ELBOW (release arm side)
    SWING AROUND YOUR SHOULDER, like a door hinge.

    This will ONLY happen,
    if you keep the FRONT HALF of your body (bow arm half)
    exactly the SAME as before (bow arm elbow bend).
    Can you explan binary cams and DL change? Do you put a twist in the cable or string?? Do you do both ends?

    Thx
    Bowtech Experience. Limb driver rest, BStinger, Sword site, black eagle arrows, wasp Broadheads

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Buffalo NY
    Posts
    1,193
    Great thread btw
    Bowtech Experience. Limb driver rest, BStinger, Sword site, black eagle arrows, wasp Broadheads

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    Thank you nuts!!!!!

  13. #213
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    Location
    Staples, Minnesota
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimoohunt View Post
    Can you explan binary cams and DL change? Do you put a twist in the cable or string?? Do you do both ends?

    Thx
    Binarys are even more adjustable in this regard. Twisting the string and untwisting the cables will shorten draw length.

    Untwisting the string and twisting the cables will lengthen DL.

    Untwisting string without twisting cables will lengthen DL, lower peak weight, increase A2A and shorten brace Although slightly on the later two.

    Here's a link to Elite's tuning basics.

    http://www.elitearchery.com/technolo...ent_basics.pdf

    '12 LH Insanity CPXL 30.5/70, Custom CBE Tek Hunter, Limbdriver
    '09 LH GT500 30/70 Ripcord, Copper John
    In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity- Albert Einstein

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by lunk2002 View Post
    Binarys are even more adjustable in this regard. Twisting the string and untwisting the cables will shorten draw length.

    Untwisting the string and twisting the cables will lengthen DL.

    Untwisting string without twisting cables will lengthen DL, lower peak weight, increase A2A and shorten brace Although slightly on the later two.

    Here's a link to Elite's tuning basics.

    http://www.elitearchery.com/technolo...ent_basics.pdf

    NOT QUITE.

    1) untwist the string (at both ends), and yes, the draw length gets slightly LONGER.
    2) twist the cables (do the same adjustment on both cables) and the draw length also gets slightly LONGER.

    3) untwist the string ONLY, the string gets longer, so the draw length gets LONGER
    ....untwist the bowstring ONLY, and the PEAK DRAW WEIGHT goes HIGHER slightly
    ....untwist the bowstring ONLY, and the HOLDING WEIGHT goes LOWER slightly
    ....untwist the bowstring ONLY and the ATA does grow
    ....untwist the bowstring ONLY and the brace height does shrink

    3) twist the bowstring ONLY, the string gets SHORTER, so the draw length gets SHORTER
    ....twist the bowstring ONLY, and the PEAK DRAW WEIGHT goes LOWER slightly
    ....twist the bowstring ONLY, and the HOLDING WEIGHT goes HIGHER slightly
    ....twist the bowstring ONLY and the ATA does shrink a very very very tiny amount
    ....twist the bowstring ONLY and the brace height does grow a very very very tiny amount


    Easiest way to remember...
    when draw weight goes DOWN, then holding weight goes UP....when you SHORT STRING a bow...(ADDing TWISTS at both ends)

    when draw weight goes UP, then holding weight goes DOWN....when you LONG STRING a bow...(RE-moving twists at both ends)
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  15. #215
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    I get points for being close right? Thanks Nuts&Bolts.

    '12 LH Insanity CPXL 30.5/70, Custom CBE Tek Hunter, Limbdriver
    '09 LH GT500 30/70 Ripcord, Copper John
    In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity- Albert Einstein

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by lunk2002 View Post
    I get points for being close right? Thanks Nuts&Bolts.
    Yup.

    The Elite table is dead on correct,
    but sooooo many boxes,
    easy to read the rows backwards.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  17. #217
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    Pittsburgh
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    I have a question. Let's say you just bought a new bow. What would be your definitive checklist for taking it from the box to a finished setup with regards to what order you do everything ( mounting accesories, rough tuning, kitchen sink, creep, building your arrow... everything)? I'm looking for something that can be used as a reference guide.

  18. #218
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    Columbia IL
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    Re: Hey Nuts &Bolts!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick79 View Post
    I have a question. Let's say you just bought a new bow. What would be your definitive checklist for taking it from the box to a finished setup with regards to what order you do everything ( mounting accesories, rough tuning, kitchen sink, creep, building your arrow... everything)? I'm looking for something that can be used as a reference guide.
    Great question. I just bought a new spyder 30 and was wondering the same thing. What is the first steps in tuning a new bow. I am going to do the kitchen sink but do I start with that? My nocking point is level with my burger hole and the top of my arrow is a 1/4 low from my nocking point. Did my bow shop set that a little low? This is the first bow I have ever tuned my self. I have always just let the bow shop set it up and left it a lone. But I really want to start shooting the best I possible can. And yes I have been working on my form as well. Thanks!!

    Sent from the tree stand.
    Hoyt spyder 30

  19. #219
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    Mt. Hermon, LA
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    I notice that the target with string attached is on an "elevated platform". Is there a certain height that this needs to be to perform this properly?

    OWNER-Busted Nock Bow Tuning
    Perfecting Arrow Flight
    HOGWIRE STRINGS
    Black Eagle Arrows Pro Staff


  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by deer slayer 11 View Post
    Great question. I just bought a new spyder 30 and was wondering the same thing. What is the first steps in tuning a new bow. I am going to do the kitchen sink but do I start with that? My nocking point is level with my burger hole and the top of my arrow is a 1/4 low from my nocking point. Did my bow shop set that a little low? This is the first bow I have ever tuned my self. I have always just let the bow shop set it up and left it a lone. But I really want to start shooting the best I possible can. And yes I have been working on my form as well. Thanks!!

    Sent from the tree stand.
    So,
    the FIRST thing we do,
    is we move the arrow rest sideways to hit factory centershot.

    If you dont' know what is this STARTING position for the arrow rest,
    then,
    simple enough to tape an arrow to the sight window with some masking tape
    and then,
    load an arrow on the string,
    put the arrow on the arrow rest
    and MEASURE the edge to edge gap between the two arrows, near the front of the arrow
    and MEASURE the edge to edge gap between the two arrows, near the rear of the arrow.

    So,
    move the arrow rest sideways until these two measurements match up.

    THIS IS A STARTING POINT only for arrow rest position,
    cuz,
    we are going to FINE TUNE
    we are going to CHANGE this arrow rest horizontal position,
    LATER during KITCHEN SINK TUNING anyways....
    at the appropriate step.

    So,
    don't sweat the arrow rest STARTING POSITION,
    before you start Kitchen Sink Tuning,
    cuz we will dial in the PERFECT position, LATER
    based on REAL WORLD TEST results...shooting arrows, hitting a target.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  21. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by deer slayer 11 View Post
    Great question. I just bought a new spyder 30 and was wondering the same thing. What is the first steps in tuning a new bow. I am going to do the kitchen sink but do I start with that? My nocking point is level with my burger hole and the top of my arrow is a 1/4 low from my nocking point. Did my bow shop set that a little low? This is the first bow I have ever tuned my self. I have always just let the bow shop set it up and left it a lone. But I really want to start shooting the best I possible can. And yes I have been working on my form as well. Thanks!!

    Sent from the tree stand.
    So,
    then,
    the next thing we want to do
    is to set the arrow rest HEIGHT
    for the STARTING POSITION,
    before we start the Kitchen Sink Tuning and the Creep Tuning.

    If this is a drop away arrow rest,
    I like to set the arrow DEAD LEVEL to start,
    cuz ALL ARROWS fly DEAD LEVEL,
    cuz this is what vanes are designed to do.

    So,
    the entire PURPOSE of a drop away arrow rest is to fall down OUT OF THE WAY,
    but,
    the entire PURPOSE of a drop away arrow rest is to provide GUIDANCE before DROPPING DOWN OUT OF THE WAY.

    So,
    if you set the back end of the arrow HIGHER
    than the FRONT END of the arrow...

    when the bow is at rest,
    then,
    when you LAUNCH the arrow at 300 fps or any speed going FORWARDS,
    the FRONT END of the arrow which STARTED OUT LOW
    is going to RISE to the height of the arrow nock
    and fly LEVEL,
    cuz that is what vanes DO.

    So,
    seems kinda SILLY to me
    that a drop away arrow rest setup
    is set with the front end of the arrow LOWER than the back end of the arrow,
    cuz if you do this,
    you have lost ALL GUIDANCE from the drop away arrow rest arm,
    cuz the FRONT END of the arrow rises up to the same height as the BACK END of the arrow
    and then,
    the arrow shaft has now lost ALL CONTACT with the drop away arrow rest arm.

    So,
    if you want to save time,
    then,
    move the arrow rest arm HIGHER until the arrow is DEAD LEVEL
    when the bow riser is VERTICAL.

    You can also leave your arrow rest alone,
    cuz we are going to CHANGE the height of the arrow rest ANYWAYS during GROUP TUNING,
    but you will save time during tuning
    if you get the arrow rest height HIGH enough
    to get the arrow closer to DEAD LEVEL,
    when the riser is DEAD VERTICAL.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  22. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by juspassinthru View Post
    I notice that the target with string attached is on an "elevated platform". Is there a certain height that this needs to be to perform this properly?
    I want shooters to shoot with the bow arm LEVEL
    with the arrow LEVEL,
    when at full draw.

    So,
    I want the target,
    I want the middle of the target
    to be at YOUR shoulder height.

    So,
    I want you in THIS shooting position,
    hitting the center of the target.



    So,
    when you are in THIS shooting position,
    then,
    the center of the target should be at your index finger height.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  23. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick79 View Post
    I have a question. Let's say you just bought a new bow. What would be your definitive checklist for taking it from the box to a finished setup with regards to what order you do everything ( mounting accesories, rough tuning, kitchen sink, creep, building your arrow... everything)? I'm looking for something that can be used as a reference guide.
    I will discuss this in the DVD I am preparing,
    and
    during the seminar in Iowa, at Hitaga Archery in September 2013.

    1) take the bow out of the box

    2) mount all your accessories

    now,
    see post #220 in this thread.
    www.nutsandboltsarchery.com
    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...=who+wants+dvd
    Send me an email for DVD = $25.00....

    alanlui@comcast.net

  24. #224
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Columbia IL
    Posts
    183

    Re: Hey Nuts &Bolts!

    Thank you so much! I can't wait to try it this weekend as long as I'm off.

    Sent from the tree stand.
    Hoyt spyder 30

  25. #225
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Fenton, MI
    Posts
    335
    Hey Nuts...

    Thanks alot for dedicating your time to helping people like me. I changed my draw length almost 1/2 in.

    I pushed my bareshaft shooting out to ten yards!! Well 25ft...I found it little harder to split the string everytime farther back(working on consistency)...

    2nd and 3rd shot both hit the first arrow with the broken knock.....


    shafts.jpg

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