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Thread: 2013 Bow Comparisons

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dhom View Post
    I understand what you are saying. However, I believe their whole point of how they tested these bows was to replicate what happens when Joe Hunter goes into a shop, has the bow draw weight and length set to their needs which was determined to be 29/65. They deemed this to be the average buyer. Then they shot what they felt was an average hunting arrow through the chrono. They did not claim any tuning and that was the point. How do these bows compare out of the box set up for the average buyer.
    This is correct. The test is not useless, it represents what most guys walk out of the shop with an hunt with for many years. Far from useless information. Just because test results differ from yours does not make the data irrelevant.



  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by dhom View Post
    I understand what you are saying. However, I believe their whole point of how they tested these bows was to replicate what happens when Joe Hunter goes into a shop, has the bow draw weight and length set to their needs which was determined to be 29/65. They deemed this to be the average buyer. Then they shot what they felt was an average hunting arrow through the chrono. They did not claim any tuning and that was the point. How do these bows compare out of the box set up for the average buyer.
    I understand what you're say as well and know lots of bow hunters that know very little about their equipment.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by mtn3531 View Post
    Then they are assuming that every shop sends them out with a bow that's too long on the draw and not in time. You know what you get when you assume, right? I believe they have posted something similar to this before and got blasted for it. I'm throwing the BS flag on having every single one of the bows in this test that far out of spec.
    Not every shop, but many shops.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn3531 View Post
    Then they are assuming that every shop sends them out with a bow that's too long on the draw and not in time. You know what you get when you assume, right? I believe they have posted something similar to this before and got blasted for it. I'm throwing the BS flag on having every single one of the bows in this test that far out of spec.
    I know nothing of them or their possible previous posts. I was just clarifying what the premiss of their test was. Most average guys come into a shop have an idea of what their dl is and some have no idea. They are given a bow, and told to draw back to see how it fits them. If one of these above bows fits them they walk out thinking they have a 29 inch draw when in reality they may be longer. This could be on any dl.
    Now back to these findings, the original numbers posted may be bogus but the premiss of their post has some merit. Maybe it would just need to be conducted by a more legitimate shop.

  5. #55
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    Might have been someone else, I haven't dug thru the posts but I do remember someone last year from AZ posting findings like this and they got flamed for not measuring the DL's right, and a host of other issues. An explanation of how the DL's were measured, what scales were used, the type of chrono etc etc would make this info a little more useful
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornagain View Post
    Interesting I have shot pretty much most of the bows on the list and found completely different results than you folks have. Bows that you have going faster than others I have found the complete opposite at an even higher degree. To say most of the manufacturers are 3/4 of an inch long vs you folks not measuring correctly, my money would be on you folks not measuring correctly. I haven't found any of the bows you listed as being long out of the box by 3/4" and that is measuring several of the same model even Mathews is doing a better job with their draw lengths. Sorry to say I for one am not buying into your testing but hey that's me.
    Its crazy how people's results can vary so much. I have been working in an archery proshop for 24 years and I am confident I know how to measure drawlength correctly. There are always many factors to consider. I simply made this chart for our customers to be able to compare the bows real world specs in an apples to apples way. Whether you agree with the drawlength findings or not, they were all done the same way on 70# bows and therefore consistant at least as far as comparing one to another.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBird1 View Post
    Most folks don't have a clue as to how much DL. is impacted by limbs being backed down. This is a real issue with parallel limb bow designs and it just one more reason why I will never ever buy another bow that doesn't have rotating mods. on the cams. If you want to shoot to your fullest capability, I'm a strong believer that you should make the bow fit you as opposed to you fitting to the bow. Also for all of you folks that say you know your DL so you don't need adjustable cams, I say think again. Every time you switch bows, chances are you're going to find that the new bow's DL. is not the same as your old one even if the specs. say they are.
    Actually reducing drawlength on a parallel limb bow, while still having an impact, has less of an impact that the older more traditional designs.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Out of the box set to 65lbs with no tuning, no timing, and not setting DL correctly = useless information.
    Each binary and cam and a half bow was timed correctly after poundage was adjusted. The solocams were also checked for proper cam position as per manufacturer's recommendations.

  9. #59
    It was not a pull out of the box and shoot test....

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongopino915 View Post
    Not saying that the data are not real but the test conducted is quick and dirty.
    Not too sure about the dirty part..... but I have over a full day into testing these bows after all the adjustments were done.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn3531 View Post
    Then they are assuming that every shop sends them out with a bow that's too long on the draw and not in time. You know what you get when you assume, right? I believe they have posted something similar to this before and got blasted for it. I'm throwing the BS flag on having every single one of the bows in this test that far out of spec.
    Sorry for the lack of faith you have brother. You are welcome to come and check out any of the bows we included in our test and take the measurements and shoot them through the chrono. I did not post this to promote a brand or model. Simply stated what we found when comparing the bows in our shop at the same specs.

  12. #62
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    After 24 years of working in a proshop I would hope I could say I am legit....

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtn3531 View Post
    Might have been someone else, I haven't dug thru the posts but I do remember someone last year from AZ posting findings like this and they got flamed for not measuring the DL's right, and a host of other issues. An explanation of how the DL's were measured, what scales were used, the type of chrono etc etc would make this info a little more useful
    Drawlengths were measured with a metal tape to the throught of the grip (true draw) then I added 1 3/4" as per ATA and AMO specs. That is the standard that all manufacturers claim to build by.

  14. #64
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    Sorry for all the reply's. I was trying to go through the posts one by one and answer y'alls questions. Happy to discuss and differences that others have found. It seems that more often than not people online don't really know what they are talking about, so I don't blame the skepticism.

  15. #65
    The thing is I haven't run across these long draw lengths on most of the bows you mentioned certainly not 3/4" of an inch. So right then and there that put's up a red flag for me. I also have to respectfully disagree with your statement about the effect of turning down the poundage on parallel limb bows vs target style limbs. With parallel limb bows with every turn you are moving the axles closer to each other effectively increasing the draw length if anything to even more of a degree than target style limbs. Add in all the chrono tests on Youtube done comparing a lot these same bows that show considerably different results not to mention my personal findings and it leads me to believe while your intent was good maybe your methods are not as sound as they could be. I applaud the work you have done, I just doubt your results is all.
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  16. #66
    I appreciate the OP's efforts. What would be great is if we could different shops/expert tuners to post up results for a standard that is real world but all exactly the same.

    How about this: tuned bow, 29" exact draw amo, 60 pounds pull on a 60 pound bow with a popular hunting weight shaft...maybe the 55/75 GT Hunter with Blazers and 100 grain head?

    Somebody that knows popular shaft weights tweak/standardize the arrow specs so guys that don't have this exact shaft handy could still hit the test grain weight and everybody could at least test with the same weight.

    I'd be real interested in seeing something like this that included a Bowtech Invasion/Experience, G5 Defy/Impact, Elite Answer/Hunter, Hoyt Spyder 30/Turbo

    Once we had a database maybe it could be complied and posted as a sticky?
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  17. #67
    Make it 400 grains as a standard I'd think was about right.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornagain View Post
    The thing is I haven't run across these long draw lengths on most of the bows you mentioned certainly not 3/4" of an inch. So right then and there that put's up a red flag for me. I also have to respectfully disagree with your statement about the effect of turning down the poundage on parallel limb bows vs target style limbs. With parallel limb bows with every turn you are moving the axles closer to each other effectively increasing the draw length if anything to even more of a degree than target style limbs. Add in all the chrono tests on Youtube done comparing a lot these same bows that show considerably different results not to mention my personal findings and it leads me to believe while your intent was good maybe your methods are not as sound as they could be. I applaud the work you have done, I just doubt your results is all.
    I don't know how I could measure all the bows so differently than you, it is such a simple measurement, but regardless what the result is, the differences from model to model would have to be consistent therefore showing the differences from one model to another in regards to how much longer or shorter the draw length is. I will also have to respectively disagree with your assessment of drawlength changing with parallel limbs vs target models. The more "non paralleled" the limbs the greater the braceheight increases as you back the limbs off, effectively increasing the draw length. As far as findings on youtube???? I have yet to see anyone show measuring drawlength. Maybe I will need to film the drawlength and chrono results for people to believe this stuff....

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCBuckNBass View Post
    I appreciate the OP's efforts. What would be great is if we could different shops/expert tuners to post up results for a standard that is real world but all exactly the same.

    How about this: tuned bow, 29" exact draw amo, 60 pounds pull on a 60 pound bow with a popular hunting weight shaft...maybe the 55/75 GT Hunter with Blazers and 100 grain head?

    Somebody that knows popular shaft weights tweak/standardize the arrow specs so guys that don't have this exact shaft handy could still hit the test grain weight and everybody could at least test with the same weight.

    I'd be real interested in seeing something like this that included a Bowtech Invasion/Experience, G5 Defy/Impact, Elite Answer/Hunter, Hoyt Spyder 30/Turbo

    Once we had a database maybe it could be complied and posted as a sticky?
    We did use a GoldTip 5575 with blazers and 100 grain tip. Total arrow weight was 362 gr. By far the common arrow at our shop.

  20. #70
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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by abowpro View Post
    We did use a GoldTip 5575 with blazers and 100 grain tip. Total arrow weight was 362 gr. By far the common arrow at our shop.
    I know you did----I read your post carefully. I was suggesting everyone use that shaft if that is a common hunting weight all made up. Somewhere between your 362 and 400 grains---whatever everyone could hit exactly (easily with what they had handy) to standardize the test and be of useful info as it being a common average weight. Maybe 375 grains?
    nuts&bolts asks me how his form looks

  22. #72
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    I cannot believe all the blah blah blah that I am hearing. abowpro simply conducted a simple test. It was HIS test....and he posted the results.....simple as that... he posted what he found and published it for all of you..........Give me break.....

    THANKS FOR YOUR REVIEW abowpro, I found it useful.
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  23. #73
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    I have recently tuned a brand new Heli-m, Z7, 06 Switchback (never shot), Insanity CPXL, D350, and they were all 1/2 long on draw length. I have not seen many bows except for PSE running a full 1in. long. Most bows i see are 1/2in long but not 3/4 to an inch.

    Hoyts are usually pretty close and so are Athens. If you get a new bow within 1/4in you doing good.
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  24. #74
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    The arrow weight of 362gr. used is a very standard arrow weight. That would be a 27.5in. GT 55/75

    I would have to say the majority of customers arrows are in the 340-380gr. range. I do have some shooting 425-450 gr. arrows but not near as many as 350-375gr.
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  25. #75
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    Backing a 70# bow down to 65# does not do much to draw length. Maybe .125 in. at most
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