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Thread: .500 and .600 spine "Youth" arrows...

  1. #1
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    .500 and .600 spine "Youth" arrows...

    Seriously?

    I am stunned at how many companies are marketing 500 and 600 spine arrows as "youth" arrows these days, and even more shocked at how so many archery shops are selling them to young recurve archers shooting 20# recurves...



    The ignorance about recurve youth arrows is so widespread it makes me wonder if we will ever overcome it. I mean when the arrow manufacturers themselves aren't offering reasonably priced arrows for youth under 1000 spine...

    Good grief.

    I have shot 500 spine arrows from my 45# recurve at 32" long! I know many adult men that shoot 600 spine arrows at 42+ # !!!

    Hey arrow companies (not Easton or CX or Carbon Impact, because they "get it") - if you want to jump on the Hunger Games/Brave bandwagon and not hamstring these new young recurve archers with an arrow that slaps their riser every shot, you HAVE to start producing arrows in the 1300-2000 spine range. Period.

    *** Rant off ***
    Renegade Archer


  2. #2
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    Well, it is a very hard sell to have parents buy new properly spined arrows when they just bought a Genesis bow with 1820 arrows included. I just had this conversation with one of our instructors.

  3. #3
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    Oh, I've heard 'em all. I know exactly the position these parents are in because I was one 12 years ago when my two older kids (and me) were new to JOAD with a very tight budget. I don't expect them to know the difference between a .500 and .600 and 1.000 spine arrow, but that's where the arrow manufacturers need to step in with decent information.

    A good example of this is what Carbon Impact does with their excellent Super Club arrows. They sell them as weak as 5/15, 10/20, 15/25 etc. offering an inexperienced parent or archer at least a CHANCE that they will select an arrow that shoots reasonably well and not crumple vanes or slap the shelf and sight window every shot. Or (as many have discovered) be so overspined that a new barebow recurve archer will need to aim 2-3' away from the target just to hit it.
    Renegade Archer

  4. #4
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    It is not just the carbon arrows either. Even adults shooting light draw limbs have a hard time with aluminum arrows the shafts of many of the arrows are only 27" full length, why? Fortunately the Groves Spitfire I was shooting last winter has an overdraw to allow me to shoot 1516's at 27".

    Having the same problem with my kids trying to find proper arrows.
    Archer

  5. #5
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    .500 and .600 spine "Youth" arrows...

    Well, I'll throw a company under the bus here. I've even criticized them on my Facebook and Twitter page. Actually, I'll throw two under the bus.

    One of them is the Easton owned company of Beman. Their ICS Junior arrows are a .500 spine arrow marketed to youth shooters. The arrows just suck, even for compound shooters.

    Victory Arrows sells a "designed for youth" arrow called the Ares and Venus. Venus is the .600 spine variant, the Ares is .500 spine.

    For compound archers, all three arrows just are horrid. I have 14 year old kids just getting into the .600 spine world.

    I won't get into the recurve world.
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  6. #6
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    Victory Arrows sells a "designed for youth" arrow called the Ares and Venus. Venus is the .600 spine variant, the Ares is .500 spine.
    Partly what caused me to start this thread...

    I was asked by a JOAD parent yesterday to find some arrows for his daughter, and the Super Clubs are on backorder, so I was searching around for something she could use... Got my hopes up when I saw the Victory offerings, but honestly wasn't at all surprised when I saw the spines. Oh well, I guess at least they list them huh? LOL.

    I won't get into the recurve world.
    Smart man.
    Renegade Archer

  7. #7
    Unfortunately, it's not just kids getting terrible arrow advice. I have archery shop owners look at my arrows and say, "Those are way too weak. You need 500 spine carbon whizbang skullcrusher arrows with Dukes of Hazzard arrows wraps." They are, of course, completely wrong (I shoot 28 pound limbs) but the problem is many arrow manufacturers' charts for target recurves are just plain very incorrect.

    With the spotlight being shone on archery over the past couple of years, you'd think that proper information would be at least leaking in through the cracks, but so many "knowledgeable" shop owners are so stubbornly set in their false information and refuse to change because they are absolutely, positively convinced that they're right and there is no way they could be wrong. They have those charts to back their opinions up, provided by the arrow companies.

    In my case, if there wasn't an ArcheryTalk forum like this one, I would have been accepting the information like I did right at my introduction to archery in 2008, and I would still be struggling with mismatched gear. My daughters and I are very grateful for folks on AT that provide good advice (like John "Limbwalker"). Many headaches have been remedied and/or avoided.

    As for adults, the problem I have is one that many have - the softer spine arrows in 700 and softer are not long enough for the most part. I did find some 700, 800, 900, and 1000 spine carbon arrows in 31" stock length, and the manufacturer doesn't even market them to recurve shooters. For orangutan-armed shooters like myself, these are just the ticket.

    For my daughters, I'm just glad that they do have some selection, albeit mostly by mail order since most of the shops only seem to stock 500 to 600 spine arrows or stiffer (the aforementioned whizbang skullcrusher carbon types with General Lee wraps). I do wish, as has been expressed here, that there was a means for more proper communication to the shops as to what an appropriate arrow for youth recurve shooters should be.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Seriously?

    I am stunned at how many companies are marketing 500 and 600 spine arrows as "youth" arrows these days, and even more shocked at how so many archery shops are selling them to young recurve archers shooting 20# recurves...

    ...
    I suspect this is liability/safety driven. Put some young lanky outlier on the line with a "20#" bow and a full-length arrow drawn well into stacking and you could easily get to the point where 500's would be appropriate and 1214 Jazz's would be dangerous. Such unlikely events become virtual certainties if a product is successful.

    Knowledge is the remedy. If there were more recurve-knowledgeable shops parents could be directed to an appropriate arrow, but there aren't, so they aren't. Packaging and advertising could provide proper education, but try running that by your marketing department.

  9. #9
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    With this problem being the norm, what is being suggested on the various arrow selection software (ie The Archery Program, Pinnwheel ect.)? I'm asking because Ruth Rowe suggested that I reduce my weight from 36# to 22# with my 29" draw. I have only been shooting for 3 months and she took a few minutes out to give me a few pointers and suggestions. I know the 1916's and 1816's will not work, but since I will have to order them from LAS I was going to get the software and let it guide me.

  10. #10
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    Why give people the right information when you can sell them two sets of arrows, maybe more with the wrong information? Nova, don't bother with the software for recurves, it is barely helpful for compounds, let alone recurves.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NOVABB View Post
    I'm asking because Ruth Rowe suggested that I reduce my weight from 36# to 22# with my 29" draw.
    This is a good illustration of the problem I have faced. It's going to be tough to find arrows long enough but soft enough. You could try the 1000 spine Bloodsport One arrows with 120 grain points, but that might not be technically soft enough. They are, however, long enough at 31". Pretty much any arrow in a range that would be correct spine is likely going to be one to several inches too short.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    Partly what caused me to start this thread...

    I was asked by a JOAD parent yesterday to find some arrows for his daughter, and the Super Clubs are on backorder, so I was searching around for something she could use... Got my hopes up when I saw the Victory offerings, but honestly wasn't at all surprised when I saw the spines. Oh well, I guess at least they list them huh? LOL.





    Smart man.

    I saw some Medallion XR's on clearance on a website yesterday for around $90.00 a dozen. I believe they had them down to 1100 spine. Would that be something that would help?
    Recovering Golf Addict

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwilder3 View Post
    I saw some Medallion XR's on clearance on a website yesterday for around $90.00 a dozen. I believe they had them down to 1100 spine. Would that be something that would help?
    I saw them at Eagle Archery for $72 a dozen. http://www.eaglearchery.com/Carbon-E...R-Arrow-Shafts. Meaning that it is $6 per shaft. Wonder if this is too good to be true?

  14. #14
    That is a good price for the xr from what I have seen. Planning on getting some in the near future for the young ones.

  15. #15
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    Yes, $6/arrow is a good price for the Medallion XR's. And I'm intimately familiar with that arrow by now, as half my JOAD female recurvers use them, including my daughter, and I drafted a spine chart for CX specifically for the sub-1000 spine XR's for recurve. Great arrows. No other company can claim to serve the competitive youth like CX does with arrows under 1300 spine.

    But I'm trying to keep the cost down, and the Super Clubs are the best bang for the buck for casual JOAD archers. They are durable, light, pre-fletched and come with nocks and points. And they are accurate enough for kids that only touch their bows once a week. I won't put a kid in Medallion XR's unless they've proven to me they are actually practicing at home, and are trying to get better.
    Renegade Archer

  16. #16
    Does the chart you worked up differ much from the one on the CX website currently?

  17. #17
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    Yea, it's about one full size weaker than the one CX published.

    Not sure why, but I always seem to tune arrows a size weaker than anyone else I know. Always been that way for me and my archers.
    Renegade Archer

  18. #18

    .500 and .600 spine "Youth" arrows...

    John

    Get CX to make the Maxima blue in a 33 inch 600 spine - there is a market for them

    Matt
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  19. #19
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    I can ask. Not an arrow I'm familiar with, but I'll look into it.
    Renegade Archer

  20. #20
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    I don't necessarily recommend these, but they do exist................. now who speaks French?

    http://www.archerie-roland.net/jos/i...am=1&Itemid=32

  21. #21
    I do.

    Basically they're saying they're designed for the youth and women in the 1650 and 1150 spines. Anything above is for men etc.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by limbwalker View Post
    I can ask. Not an arrow I'm familiar with, but I'll look into it.
    Pardon me while I wander off topic...

    Regarding the CX Maxima Blue, that's an arrow with dual spine and diamond weave that they currently offer in spines to 350. In other words, a hunting arrow for compound bows. They look very snazzy in person, if you like the woven carbon look. I think the woven look is exciting, but I don't know that I'd believe it's anything but for appearance.

    I am skeptical that the weave would impart strength where you need it in an arrow and may in fact impart weakness. I bet it's just an outer layer for looks with the real business underneath. Just 'cause carbon is woven doesn't mean it's stronger that way. Woven works well in applications like bicycles where tension stresses come from a lot of different directions, but in an arrow I'd expect the stresses to be largely compression in nature, hence my assessment that woven would not provide an advantage.

    Back toward the topic at hand...

    I think that in carbon arrows, the Medallion XR arrows sound nearly perfect and that's what my daughter will be shooting when she's ready for that next step above Platinum Plus arrows. That time is rapidly approaching in my daughter's case.

    I think what baffles me is that manufacturers are producing arrows that they should know are inappropriate for youth and that they already produce arrows that are considerably better for youth than these new offerings. As said above, "Why sell one set of arrows when you can sell someone two sets (or maybe even 3)." I guess my question is, are the manufacturers intentionally pushing these products knowing that they're likely to cause frustration in the name of selling more product or are they simply caving in to the demands of an uninformed dealer network?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greysides View Post
    I don't necessarily recommend these, but they do exist................. now who speaks French?

    http://www.archerie-roland.net/jos/i...am=1&Itemid=32
    Google does.
    Try this.
    http://translate.google.com/translat...%26Itemid%3D32
    The Sticky "What to include" Glossary Thread Carbon Impact Thread

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dchan View Post
    Now that's nifty. I spun up Google Chrome today specifically to translate that and another website for me........... and it didn't do that one..........

    Luckily with some help I worked it out..... I did speak a little French at one time.

  25. #25
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    The fact that arrow companies market 500 spine arrows as "youth arrows" makes me mad as well. I am a victim of this too. When I was younger, I contacted Easton, told them how much weight I was pulling (back then i was pulling 24 lbs.) and they sold me 550 spine. They tuned horribly and left huge rips in paper when I paper tuned. I think the reason they market stiff spines as youth arrows is so they can make more money. They know the naive parents of kids who just got into archery will ask what spine, then they tell them the wrong information just knowing they will come back in the future to buy the right spine. It's all a scam to make money of you ask me.

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