Archery Talk Forum banner

Hoyt Draw Stop Timing (Revised)

342K views 657 replies 249 participants last post by  jcs-bowhunter 
#1 · (Edited)
For those who may be interested I have revised the much posted PP slide of the cam & 1/2 draw stop timing. I hope this addition will be easier to understand...
 
#316 ·
Ok will my string need to settle after I press it?

And now I can't get my a2a to spec without twisting the string alot, so I put back what was in it. Now a2a's 1/4" long, dunno about DL, and the draw weight is pretty close. I really don't care as long as i am timed and synched.

im just wondering if I should shoot a few dozen arrows before putting in the peep and then paper tuning.

and if I do that before creep tuning, i shouldn't have to reset my peep and paper tune again, right?
 
#319 ·
ATA is set with th CC and BC. the bowstring will move it but not to the degree you need. If you are a quarter inch out then put 4 twists in both CC and BC and try again from there.
Yes your string may need a little shooting in if it is an old string and will definately need shooting in if new but, you are still bench tuning the bow so don't worry with that for now. One step at a time.
 
#320 ·
Differences...

I noticed today that the sticker on my bow has a different lenghts than it sais on the hoyt website tune charts... If I order new strings, which should I stick to, the sticker, or the tune charts:

String: sticker 59 => tune chart 60.5
Buss: sticker 39 tune => chart 39.25
control: sticker 42.25 => tune chart 42.25

The strings on it now are the strings that where on it when I bought it (2nd hand) but they need replacing. The ATA is dead on, BH is dead on, Tiller is 1/32nd higher on top, and the timing is perfect (can't measure draw weight here, but it feels about right). The current strings don't look like factory strings (all red... Doesn't seem hoyty to me). Should I worry much about the lenght differences (especially the string bothers me)?
 
#322 ·
I noticed today that the sticker on my bow has a different lenghts than it sais on the hoyt website tune charts... If I order new strings, which should I stick to, the sticker, or the tune charts:

String: sticker 59 => tune chart 60.5
Buss: sticker 39 tune => chart 39.25
control: sticker 42.25 => tune chart 42.25

The strings on it now are the strings that where on it when I bought it (2nd hand) but they need replacing. The ATA is dead on, BH is dead on, Tiller is 1/32nd higher on top, and the timing is perfect (can't measure draw weight here, but it feels about right). The current strings don't look like factory strings (all red... Doesn't seem hoyty to me). Should I worry much about the lenght differences (especially the string bothers me)?
I would press the bow and measure them to see what you have. I would also bench tune your bow with the old string so that you will know within an 1/8th what you will need. This will save you so much work down the road.
 
#327 ·
If someone could do me a favor, and take a picture of your Vulcan cams at full draw that would be great. I plan on doing this process roughly in 1hr. And a visual would be good to have. But knowing that I can't go by that 100% would just help me stay in the " ballpark " knowing that i'm doing things right.

BTW, great post Javi !! Thanks for your time on this, and all the inside info your willing to share w/ fellow shooters.

~Dustin
 
This post has been deleted
#331 ·
Question I've always heard max the limbs before tuning is this true with all Hoyts? Or something you can set draw weight and then time and sync the cams? BTW i don't have the cam+1/2 i have the C2 non adjustable 30" cams. TY
Actually, all bows should be maxed to check and set all factory specs. If you have gone through the draw stop timing, the last step is adjusting main bow string to get correct draw length. You will note that both cams move with twisting the main bow string. As long as they move equally there is no problem. As Hoyt states in their manuals, the timing marks or reference holes are just that, reference points.
 
This post has been deleted
#416 ·
I found this in my Hoyt manual.

Note: To verify that the factory specs (cam orientation, draw lenght, draw weight, brace height, axle-to-axle, etc.) of your bow are correct, it is important to have your bow at peak poudage (tighten lib bolts all the way and back them out 1/4 turn) and ensure proper string and cable lengths. Lengths of the strings and cables should be measured with approximately 100 pounds of tension. Add or remove twists to obtain the proper length.


Interesting that they say max the limbs out and then back off 1/4 turn and check specs.
 
#335 ·
Javi,

It is nice to have you back :set1_applaud: :wav: :77:. Seems like you are a little more active on your post again. You are a great resource.
Thank You!
 
#336 ·
First off Thanks too Javi, Archersteve, Hoyt Thompson and all that have added info too this topic!! My question is after doing the first couple steps and getting tiller even, when you start adjusting the buss and/or control for the draw stop how does the tiller stay even or do you have to adjust in combo:confused: Again THANK YOU all very much
 
#337 ·
If you adjust the cables in equal twists then the tiller will stay close together. You will notice that as you DL and DW get closer to spec that the ATA will become close as well and then you can use you BH measurement to set the proper cam rotation position at rest. It is a balancing act that only comes with practice.
 
#339 ·
It really isn't that difficult... Take a moment or two and really look at how the cables run and what twisting one affects... A simple way to do this is to remove the cables from the cable slide and one at a time pull or push them toward the riser... this will show you the reaction of the cams as you apply twists to the cable. Then do the same with the string and watch how each cam is affected...
 
#340 ·
All right guys heres what I got:
draw length +1/4" (which I actually like cause I'm a little longer than 30")
A2A +1/8"
Brace +5/16"
Draw weight pretty close maybe a little low (don't have a very good scale)
Tiller dead nuts
draw stop dead nuts

I think I'm pretty close what say you? Should I keep trying or should I go ahead and mount accesories and give it a whirl?

Again THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I just love this place:thumb:
 
#341 ·
Ok, I see you are shooting a Vectrix so I am going to tell you that you are close but with the draw length specific cams you need to make sure you use the performance marks on the bottom cam.
The performance marks do not need to be centered but I use them to make sure that your post that attaches the CC to the bottom cam is far enough away from the CC. When you shot a bow the cams do not just come to rest in the static position, they swing back and forth a bit. If your CC is to close to that peg you will start to rub the CC where it wraps back around the small eccentric on the peg where you attached the CC. You will also see that your performance marks will be off to one side. I recommend about 1/4 inch between the CC and that peg. With your brace height that much over I would definatly look at it.
You may have to shorten the bow string to rotate both cams equally to keep your Tiller and DS timing on. I also see you are a touch over on ATA which will lower the DW a tad. Remember you are looking for what shoots best for you so maybe to get the most out of your strings right now losing a few pounds of DW is better than shooting a untuned bow.
I would try putting a few more twists in your Bow string to get you DL and BH set closer to spec and make sure you look at that bottom cam peg. Halo serving or not you will eat that up in 500 shots or less if it is rubbing at the shot.
After that go on to creep tuning cause you are about as bench tuned as you are gonna get.
Don't it feel good to have timed one of the more complicated setups out there. After this go on to tackle Binary cams and you will be the man in your shooting community. HAHAHA.
 
#342 ·
Ok well here’s my story I gave this tuning thing another whirl and I got the tiller dead even (the ref holes are no where even close to being even, the top one is almost on the hole while the bottom one is no where close), the draw stop is dead even, and the draw length is dead even, I took my Axel to Axel measurement the way archersteve told me and I’m 7/16 long from the Hoyt tune charts, my brace height is 1/8 less then the tune charts, I dont have a scale but its around 60 pounds. My string and buss cable are twisted pretty good so I don’t think I can get my axel to axel that much smaller (my buss cable is actually twisted so much that the split part is actually twisting when I take the bow of the press). And the cam lean I got right now is ridiculous it almost looks like the string is going to fall right off the cam. I got a 06 lazertec and i put a winner’s choice string on it the rest of the cables are factory, it’s a 60 lbs draw.


As I was writing I was thinking, while this whole tuning process was going on I decided to twist everything a lot to see if I can get the axel to axel to get relatively close now I measured it and I was still a little long but when I drew it back there seemed to be a lot of weight on it like probably close to 70 pounds. When I bought the bow, the guy at the dealership said it was a 60 pound bow but the sticker on the limb is cut off so no one really knows. Do you guys think I might have a 70 pound bow instead? When I first started this whole thing about a month ago I think starting off the Axel to Axel was 1/4 inch long would that be enough to take 10 pounds off the max weight?

Im sorry guys if i'm being a pain but I do appreciate your guys help.
 
#345 ·
It is hard to tell what you may have. The one way to know for sure is get the serial number off the bow and call Hoyt. Also if you really want a difinative answer you will need to disassemble the bow and get the deflection numbers off of you limb bases. Hoyt can tell you more about what you have from there.
The factory cables are going to be your downfall. The one thing they are good for are peep tieing thread and getting your bow bench tuned so you will know what lengths to order your good strings.
I am having a hard time following what you have done. First you say you are 7/16ths long in your ATA but you say you started at 1/4" long a month ago. Maybe I am misunderstanding you but this would mean you are untwisting stuff.
The way you desribe your cam lean I am worried you have a bent riser or bent axle. My suggestion at this point is if you bought it new then get a proshop to send it back to Hoyt. If you bought it used then take it to a proshop and see if they can give it a good going over. Something sounds off.
I hope you are not using a "boat roller" type press on your Hoyt as it will twist it up badly.
 
#343 ·
Hoyt Thompson, I looked at my marks they are dang near as centered as they can be and my post is 3/16" away from my string, tonight I will twist my string a little more to see if I can increase that just a bit more then a shootin we will go! One more question the little white peg for let off marked 65 and 75% how does that work, it doesn't look like it contacts anything?
Does the Diamond Edge have a binary system? I'm thinking about one for my son so I might be having that adventure sometime soon too! Thanks have a day.
 
#344 ·
First the let off hole question.
When you put it in the hole for the let off you want, it will contact the cable at full draw. It will change the timimg slightly so creep tune, then install it and creep it again to acheive the best results.
Second, 3/16th sounds a little to close in my opinion, I would twist the string a tad to get you DL down a bit and rotate the cams a slight more to keep the peg from rubbibg. You may wind up taking a twist out of both BC and CC to rotate both cams back to keep the cable away from that peg.
 
#346 ·
I have a question a little off topic, but I think it'll fit here.

Well I can't set my rest low enough to line it up with the berger hole. How does this affect everything?

(you're supposed to set the nock point and rest so the arrow is lined up with that hole in the riser, right?)
 
#347 ·
Not really necessary to line up the rest with the berger hole (rest attachment holes).

In an ideal world, the rest should put the arrow at the exact center of the bow. Measure the bow, top to bottom without drawing the bow, and find the exact center. Now, place the arrow at the center and get it perpendicular to the string, and that is the ideal place to have the rest.

OK OK, most that have tried this find that it is below the shelf or even at the place they set their hand on the grip. This is not too uncommon, because it is not an easy Engineering trick to pull a bow back from any place other than the center of the bow without the limbs tipping back at you.

So, we compromise. It is best, although how much better is subject to argument, to get the arrow closest to the center of the bow. On some bows, I found that I just wanted the fletch to clear the rest, and the smaller the fletch, the closer the arrow to the rest, the better.

Most of the time, if we just get the arrow at the holes, or just above it, you won't even be able to tell the difference.

So, if you are really picky, and want that extra one or two fps, and think that you are good enough to see a little less nock travel, spend the money for another type of rest. Otherwise, don't worry about it.
 
#349 ·
hoyt protec tunning..cam .5

Where are you guys grabbing onto your string to check timing..?
In other words where do you start your tunning from...?
Are you 90 deg. and perpendiculer to the hole in the riser or slightly above?
I have been finding that I actually need to be about 3/16 below the 90deg mark on the string. This is almost always necessary to get that bullet hole WHILE PAPER TUNING.
I always end up back to this point on all my hoyts with any arrow spine or any cam sync method.
The only way I have ever been able to get around this is to forget about paper tuning and just group tune etc.
The bows all shoot great. In fact shoot in 28o"s with the hunting bow on spots.
But still this bothers me some times... I am a beleiver that if you can not get a good paper tun then the the bow is not tuned.
Any oppinions...would love to here Javis opinion on this. I have really had some sucess with his method here. That is forgoing any paper tuning.
 
#350 ·
For you to be 3/16th low nock then a few things pop into my mind. 1) spine is to weak. Try shooting a lighter point to see if this helps. 2) Bottom cam is ahead of the top cam causing the nock to travel below the intended power path. 3) you have a unique shooting style which may be causing you to have a lower than 90 degree nock point. You say it is not the first or second but, I believe it may be number 2. Only you will be able to tell us as wel cannot inspect your bow.
You mention cam sync method, did you finish the tuning by using the modified creep tuning to zero in your bow?
Bench tuning is only a starting point and creep tuning allows you to fit the bow to your form and your style shooting.
I tune with a dloop set at 90 degrees to the string and arrow passing thru the berger hole at some point. lower the arrow the better up to the point that you are not getting sufficient fletching clearance. With Blazers or any other high profile vane you may even find that you are going thru the top of the berger hole. If you are using a drap away you also may need to be going thru the top of the berger hole for fletching clearance of the shelf and drop launcher arm.
Let me know if this helps you out and get back to us. Javi..... your turn. :lol:
 
#351 ·
protec tuning

I have tried all combinations of tip weights and arrow spines, also timed out cams so top cam is ahead of bottom cam and vise versa as well as both in sync.
I have tried different drop aways rests too.
I think the only thing i have not tried is to get a little longer cables and string.
They are rite at spec at installation with little room for twisting...maybe 4 to5 twists or so. They are generally about 3/16 of an inch shorter then the chart show but when on the bow the brace, draw length and weight are dead on.
But this is in the un sycned/tuned state. I have talked to a few different people about this and they tell me they no longer paper tune their bows anymore. That a big...... W.t.f.
Also have had people tell me to ditch the drop away rests that they are more gimick then reality. I noticed this is mentioned in the Bowtek threads...see Nolen threads.
Have to try some more experimenting it sound like.
 
#352 ·
I have tried all combinations of tip weights and arrow spines, also timed out cams so top cam is ahead of bottom cam and vise versa as well as both in sync.
I have tried different drop aways rests too.
I think the only thing i have not tried is to get a little longer cables and string.
They are rite at spec at installation with little room for twisting...maybe 4 to5 twists or so. They are generally about 3/16 of an inch shorter then the chart show but when on the bow the brace, draw length and weight are dead on.
But this is in the un sycned/tuned state. I have talked to a few different people about this and they tell me they no longer paper tune their bows anymore. That a big...... W.t.f.
Also have had people tell me to ditch the drop away rests that they are more gimick then reality. I noticed this is mentioned in the Bowtek threads...see Nolen threads.
Have to try some more experimenting it sound like.
That's 'cause the lengths on the limb are untwisted lengths...:wink:
 
#354 ·
I re tie the drop rest cable after the cams are synced.
The bow shoots pretty good this way so I may leave it alone.
 
#356 ·
You never time a bow with the drop rest cable NOT attached to the cable.

You are taking the bow out of time and that is why the tune is 3/16" low.

But, it you like the way it shoots, don't change a thing, but, if you want a smoother bow, a harder wall, a slightly faster bow, re-time the bow with the fall-a-way rest functioning and then tune the nock height.
 
#357 · (Edited)
Thanks you guys, but yes I know that the drop cable should be and is attatched.
I re tie it to the bus cable so that it does not add any tension to the cable. Yes that is obvious, so I have tried it both ways.
I still think some longer string/cables may have some thing to do with it. I base this on my two target bows. The strings on those are installed at the lenghts shown on the tune charts,then twisted from there.
I seem to only hit this on the shorter ax to ax. bows with the shorter strings/cables on them.
As mentioned earlier the other strings on these are installed 3/16" shorter then the charts show and twisted from there.
Thanks for all your help..I have alot to think about again.
 
#358 ·
string lengths??

Are the new hoyts like my Katera coming with twisted string and cable lengths on them now?I know from a few years ago they were un twisted lengths, but was told they are on the money now.
 
#361 ·
Are the new hoyts like my Katera coming with twisted string and cable lengths on them now?I know from a few years ago they were un twisted lengths, but was told they are on the money now.
You would need to call Hoyt on this one.

You can also just ask the Custom Bow String maker to determine the length. I just call them up, tell them what bow I have, my draw length, and they already have the data.

But, if you are going to make your own, call Hoyt and ask.
 
#359 ·
i have been shooting my katera for a little over a month now and i noticed that the top cam is underrotated by atleast a 1/4 inch. i also checked and the ata is about 3/16 to long and the bh is a little long. what should a twist to get it timed, and when you twist them do you twist the top or the bottom.

i have a 30 inch DL and want to keep it there,and i feel that it might be a tad long right now. also how do you guys measure draw length without a draw board

thanks
fdhoyt
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top