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Thread: Hoyt Draw Stop Timing (Revised)

  1. #76
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    Steve

    I don’t know that we really differ that much in our theories concerning arrow spine.



    What I’ve witnessed is that most folks use the programs and/or spine charts to FIND an arrow that is correctly spined for their bow with a field tip. And there is nothing wrong with that, it works great until you slap a broadhead on the arrow… then the dynamic spine changes ad the arrow is weak, compound this with the fact that in their quest for speed many shoot an arrow that is borderline weak to begin with. Now there is no way to make the field tips and broadheads hit together without altering the flight of the arrows by moving the rest out of centershot or turning the bow down until the spine is better tuned to the broadhead.

    The few individuals who do utilize a slightly stiff arrow will have a slight differential in POI with field points and broadheads but usually it is not enough to worry about.

    My personal philosophy is to shoot a very stiff arrow for the short distances such as 50 yards and less; tuning my point weight and fletching size for the best groups at 50… then the field points and broadheads hit together…

    I also ain’t a speed freak, so I have no problem using a wrench on my limb bolts to correct any aberration in POI.

    I do utilize properly spined arrows for target shooting at distances over 50 yards as I have found accuracy to be much more critical of spine at longer distances.


  2. #77
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    I guess we do agree. Considering that I would not suggest that anyone take a hunting shot beyound 50 yards, and most not more than 25 yards (ouch), any differences do not apply.

    I still have not found that I have problems with stiff arrows not grouping or shooting left/right at distances, but than again why bother with stiff arrows in those conditions. After all, overly stiff arrows are usually associated with fat arrows and that is the last thing we want in the wind.

    Still, I won the Oregon State Games in 1999 using Beman ICS 340 at only 60 lbs, and at least out to 80 yards, they were dead on.

    So after saying that, I am looking into some new "distance" arrows that are thinner than my old ACC's and stronger than the ACE's that I sold on e-bay. I shoot 60 # because that is what my body handles best (a few more years on this old boy and that will probably change). The more I look, the harder it is going to be to get FOC., overall weight, small diameter, and properly spined arrows to fit my bill.

    Got any suggestions?

  3. #78
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    Sometimes despite the charts and programs... a 340 might be the proper spine at 60 lbs... In fact at 29" a 340 with 100 grain point cut to 28" is a slight bit weak for my UltraTec with Spirals... and my strings.

    The charts and programs are a great place to start.. But not necessarily the end all... A different string, speed balls and many other things affect the efficiency of the bows.. and this will affect the correct arrow spine... even the length of the point or the weight of the vanes and have an effect.
    That's one reason I really like the On Target software... it allows you to calibrate from many angles, including bow efficiency
    Last edited by JAVI; July 10th, 2006 at 10:55 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI
    Sometimes despite the charts and programs... a 340 might be the proper spine at 60 lbs... In fact at 29" a 340 with 100 grain point cut to 28" is a slight bit weak for my UltraTec with Spirals... and my strings.

    The charts and programs are a great place to start.. But not necessarily the end all... A different string, speed balls and many other things affect the efficiency of the bows.. and this will affect the correct arrow spine... even the length of the point or the weight of the vanes and have an effect.
    That's one reason I really like the On Target software... it allows you to calibrate from many angles, including bow efficiency
    Good point. I guess I need to update to 'On Target'; I have been using an older software program for that purpose and I found more holes in it than a brides mesh vail (very small holes but a lot of them {LOL}).

    Still, the bow I was using at the time was a Septer II with furry cams. A pretty good bow but nothing like the UltraTec with Sprials (at least for speed) and I was using the same shaft you mention but with only 85 grains at the tip. If I remember correctly, I was using Flex Fletch but I don't remember the size (right around 2" though I'm sure).

  5. #80
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    Javi and Archersteve,
    I'm shooting a Super tec w/ a 30.5" d/l (the cam is 30, but I tweaked the buss cable to 30.5). I'm set at 72# and I'm shooting a 29 3/4" 2317 XX78 with stinger 125 heads on the end.
    I've been shooting blazers and I even tried some Easton Buckeye 340's at 28 1/2" with 4" feathers.
    The feather controlled shaft was dead on with the field points, so I put some feathers on one of my 2317's and dead on with my field points as well.
    I performed the walk back tuning and my vert. and horz. were/are on the money prior to starting the broadhead tuning.
    I feal that I wasn't getting enough stearing on the back of the shaft and that I wasn't able to get an aggressive enough helical with my Arizona fletcher.

    Archersteve -- you asked that you I meant by moving the WB till it affected my field point flight, just that -- they started impacting way to the right. So I moved the WB back and started tuning it all over again.

    Hopefully this makes sense.

    Steamin

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamin
    Javi and Archersteve,
    I'm shooting a Super tec w/ a 30.5" d/l (the cam is 30, but I tweaked the buss cable to 30.5). I'm set at 72# and I'm shooting a 29 3/4" 2317 XX78 with stinger 125 heads on the end.
    I've been shooting blazers and I even tried some Easton Buckeye 340's at 28 1/2" with 4" feathers.
    The feather controlled shaft was dead on with the field points, so I put some feathers on one of my 2317's and dead on with my field points as well.
    I performed the walk back tuning and my vert. and horz. were/are on the money prior to starting the broadhead tuning.
    I feal that I wasn't getting enough stearing on the back of the shaft and that I wasn't able to get an aggressive enough helical with my Arizona fletcher.

    Archersteve -- you asked that you I meant by moving the WB till it affected my field point flight, just that -- they started impacting way to the right. So I moved the WB back and started tuning it all over again.

    Hopefully this makes sense.

    Steamin
    Blazers are great vanes, but they are equivalent to 4" Vanes and not feathers for stearing, at least not in my experience. Perhaps if you used a larger vane like a 4" with helical or a quickspin....... Still, having not run the arrow numbers through the system (that program and all my books are not with me this week), my gut instinct is not fletch stearing but fletch contact.

    Blazers have a higher profile than most vanes (.55" verses .5" and smaller), and are so much stiffer than feathers, so you really need to check for contact. Of course you cannot just coat the fletch and shoot to confirm contact because the WB gives you a false reading. You may need to look for other ways to check for fletch contact outside of the WB. Are the vanes hitting the WB? I helped one shop with a WB where the WB had a flat side at the bottom on it instead of a full circle and the person was trying to shoot cock fletch down - the blazers were leaving a film of plastic on the metal.

    Are the blazers hitting the cable? If they are, you will wear out the cable and you don't want that, with feathers or vanes.

    All of the above conditions assume that the test you ran while tuning were close, but not perfect and that the little bit of contact was causing the problem. Still, there may be other issues.

    I asked about moving the WB and field point flight because there is a big difference between the field point impact moving right and the arrow not flying well. I see that the problem was in impact, not flight.

    Go back to moving your WB to the right. You will move field point impact to the right, but the movement of broadheads to the right will be much faster. When the two come together, you will need to resight the bow again - but then your done until you change something else. But if the feathers are shooting groups with both, the problem is not arrow spine and moving the WB is not likley to help.

    So, first check for clearance, than move the WB. Remember that much of this thread has side tracked to discussing "too stiff". The light weight feathers will actually effectively stiffen the arrow dynamically, and the feathers provided you the best combined groups. This makes one wonder if the arrow is too week. Did you back the bow off a couple of turns as JAVI indicated? If so, what happened?

  7. #82
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    I've attached a picture of what type of flight I am getting with my bow right now, (well yesterday).
    The center dot was point of aim and the feather was right on, the shaft to the left was point of impact with the blazers. The bottom arrow is blazers with a T4 nock (just to see what it would do).
    To answer the ? of flight with field points and the boadheads, they both have the same flight and same point of impact.
    I had the same results with the buckeye 340's.
    Should I still move the WB or leave it as is?

    Steamin
    Last edited by Steamin; November 23rd, 2006 at 02:44 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamin
    I've attached a picture of what type of flight I am getting with my bow right now, (well yesterday).
    The center dot was point of aim and the feather was right on, the shaft to the left was point of impact with the blazers. The bottom arrow is blazers with a T4 nock (just to see what it would do).
    To answer the ? of flight with field points and the boadheads, they both have the same flight and same point of impact.
    I had the same results with the buckeye 340's.
    Should I still move the WB or leave it as is?

    Steamin
    I think the problem is impact with the Blazers somewhere. The fact that the T 4's made such a major impact change, and in such a bad location, pretty much confirms it is not a stabelization problem.

    I would not move the WB and to be honest, unless you hunt in a lot of rain, I'd shoot feathers and be done with it.

    When all is said and done, don't fix it if it is not broken.

  9. #84
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    How exactly did you tweak the buss cable to gain a 1/2" of draw?

  10. #85
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    Javi,
    I shouldn't say a 1/2", but I gained some noticable length by following your directions on twisting/shortening the buss cable in the tuning instructions.

    I'm going to stay with feathers, @ least when shooting stingers. I just got in from shooting/trying to see if or where I was getting contact on the blazers.
    I never could see or notice any contact. I'm not touching the cables upon release.
    I done some shooting @ 30 yards and the feathers w/broadheads were right on the money with the field points (I shot both blazers and feathers w/points) as soon as I started shooting the blazers, with the aiming point the field point arrows, it was considerably lower on point of impact (with broadheads).

    I did notice that I was applying torque to the bow and changed the grip style that I was using and noticed a difference in flight.

    Thanks
    Steamin

  11. #86
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    Unhappy Reflex Highlander Cam setup

    I have a problem with setup of my Reflex Highlander.
    It buy it about 3 months later,and shoot 200-250 arrow.
    I have a cam in uner rotate and i try (thanks to Javi for is post) to adjust it and now the stop timing is correct but control cable is in the reference hole but the bus cable is out of the reference hole and the draw lenght is 3/4 long.
    I think the the control cable is short because it has only two turn but the bus cable has many turn.
    I set draw lenght 28 and i decrease draw weight from 70lbs to 65lbs.
    For the setup i must put the bow to the high draw weight and at the maximum draw lenght?
    I made same mistake in the tuning sequence?

    Thanks

    Simone

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Six73
    I have a problem with setup of my Reflex Highlander.
    It buy it about 3 months later,and shoot 200-250 arrow.
    I have a cam in uner rotate and i try (thanks to Javi for is post) to adjust it and now the stop timing is correct but control cable is in the reference hole but the bus cable is out of the reference hole and the draw lenght is 3/4 long.
    I think the the control cable is short because it has only two turn but the bus cable has many turn.
    I set draw lenght 28 and i decrease draw weight from 70lbs to 65lbs.
    For the setup i must put the bow to the high draw weight and at the maximum draw lenght?
    I made same mistake in the tuning sequence?

    Thanks

    Simone
    Cams are not in synchronization… This is the primary step… it must be done…

  13. #88
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    Ditto JAVI.

    Remember Six73 that every step is important and that they must be followed in sequence.

    Remember also that you knew enough to see that there was a problem and you knew enough to ask the question. You will be able to figure it out without problems. Just go back to step one and start over.

  14. #89
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    Cam Setup

    Thanks a lot,today put my bow in press and synchronize the cam.

  15. #90
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    Thank You

    Thanks so much. I spent the day tuning my vipertec and now I'm shooting a new bow. Reduced the sound and hand shock and now the back wall feels amazing.

  16. #91
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    Hoyt Draw Stop Timing

    I am going to tune my Trykon XL with the 2.0 cam (27" draw)per Javi's directions

    I have had my form critiqued and everything seems to be fine. I may blow one aspect of it like punching the trigger, but nothing consistently wrong. My problem is that I shoot a terrific group of 3-4 arrows and get an unexplainable flyers.

    I talked with Hoyt today and to make a long story short, the rep seemed to depart from the norm, shall we say, leaving me wondering.

    1. I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?

    2. How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on ?

    3. The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????

    4. The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????


    When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?

    Thank you for the help.

  17. #92
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    Hoyt Draw Stop Timing

    ACAL
    I am very curious because i just ordered a TRykon Xl at 27" DL.
    Is your Trykon coming up short??
    Thanks

  18. #93
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    Trykon XL

    Nabob check your PM


    I just replaced the original buss cable and found that the bow was nowhere near being tuned when it came from the factory. Twisted the buss and control cables and everything seems to be ok. ATA is fine, cam sync. is set, draw length is set. I am going to shoot it tomorrow, and hopefully all will be well.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by acal
    I am going to tune my Trykon XL with the 2.0 cam (27" draw)per Javi's directions

    I have had my form critiqued and everything seems to be fine. I may blow one aspect of it like punching the trigger, but nothing consistently wrong. My problem is that I shoot a terrific group of 3-4 arrows and get an unexplainable flyers.

    I talked with Hoyt today and to make a long story short, the rep seemed to depart from the norm, shall we say, leaving me wondering.

    1. I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?

    2. How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on ?

    3. The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????

    4. The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????


    When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?

    Thank you for the help.
    Let me try to help a little. It is unfortunate that you got a Hoyt Rep that was perhaps not quite up to Par. So, lets get started.

    "I need to know if the sticky on the Cam and 1/2 by Javi applies to the Zephyer cam ?" Yes, the sticky works for the Zephyer as well, but note the comments on the Spiral Cam. The Spiral Cam and Zephyer are tuned the same, and the only real difference between the sprial and cam 1.5 is that the spiral is not draw length adjustable.

    "How is draw length determined, from the deepest part of the throat to the string, or is an additional measurement added on?" The answer to your question is YES. OK, I guess this did not help much did it. The actual draw length is measured from the string to the deepest part of the grip, but the AMO draw length takes this measurement and adds 1-3/4" to the actual. You buy the bow using AMO measurements, so if you shoot a 27" draw length, the measured distance should be (27" - 1.75" = 25.25")

    "The rep also indicated that the lower draw stop should contact the cable at full draw, and the top cam stop shortly after ????????" This one is a matter of feel. If you do this, it will indeed work, but you will find the wall a bit on the soft side (at least for my taste). Crackers has been known to tune it with the top draw stop coming in contact slightly first. JAVI and I find that having the two come in contact at the same time yields the firmest, most repeatable feel. In reality, it is a matter of taste.

    "The rep also indicated that tuning via the cables/string can be accomplished without bottoming out the limbs????????????" This is true, but the reason for bottoming out the cams is to get the cams sync'ed first. There are alternate ways to get the results that you get with JAVI's method (actually I use my own alternate way) but if you follow his method it solves all of the tuning issues in the process of tuning the bow.

    "When ordering new strings and cables, should they be ordered at the length that is indicated in the specification table for my bow, or should they be ordered longer and then twisted to length ?" That depends on who you are ordering them from and how you state this, but I would call, say for sake of argument, Vapor Trail. I would then say, Hey, I have a HOYT Trykon XL that I need to put new strings and cables on. I would than say the specifications table for my bow say the following. Done that way, there is no question about what you are asking for. All of the custom string makers will have the knowledge of how the bow company in question is making the strings (some list twisted length and some un-twisted length).

    I hope this helps, but remember, the reason JAVI uses the method he does is because it gets A2A, Brace Height, Cam sync, and cam tuning set correctly in one shot. If we find that A2A and Brace height are already correct (something that is actually measured with limbs bottomed out), than we can skip some steps.

    My best advice is to follow his steps line by line.

  20. #95

    Question

    This may be a silly question, but after you have set the timing and sync. up in position C for your cam and 1/2 should you tweak it when you change your draw length to position D or is the difference unnoticeable?
    Thanks in advance

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by murster 67
    This may be a silly question, but after you have set the timing and sync. up in position C for your cam and 1/2 should you tweak it when you change your draw length to position D or is the difference unnoticeable?
    Thanks in advance
    Good question, and generally, you will not notice a difference. The reason for using the "C" position is for the BH and A2A which are measured in this position.

    If the cams seem out of time, you may need to twist a cable 1/2 turn, but I have never seen this, and only heard it once (remember to believe only half of what you see and ....... oh never mind).

  22. #97
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    Smile cam time

    JAVI thanks for the info worked on my TRYCON XL like a charm holds twice as steady now ata's on the money and so is my tiller Thanks again
    PSE Bows/ Bow madness, Phenom,
    MFAA/NFAA member

  23. #98
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    Javi,
    I started to set my bow with your instuctions and have a question. If I let the 10 twist out of the string then twist the buss cable to get the 1/4" longer ATA and twist the contol cable to sync the cams. Then if I start twisting the buss cable to set the draw stops does this not just screw up what I just did sync the cams?
    One more question when you are setting the sync with the contol cable you are keeping tiller even and not looking at cam marks correct?
    If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?
    Vince Lombardi
    Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
    Vince Lombardi

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDaily
    Javi,
    I started to set my bow with your instuctions and have a question. If I let the 10 twist out of the string then twist the buss cable to get the 1/4" longer ATA and twist the contol cable to sync the cams. Then if I start twisting the buss cable to set the draw stops does this not just screw up what I just did sync the cams?
    One more question when you are setting the sync with the contol cable you are keeping tiller even and not looking at cam marks correct?
    The only reason to untwist the string is to make sure it isn't influencing the cam rotation and limb load...

    And yes you are playing a balancing game between cam sync and cam timing.. If everything else is correct the marks will come into line as well... but I don't judge by them... they like the A2A and Brace are just for reference...

    In the end you want the cam timing. sync, draw length and draw weight correct... with the proper load on the string and cables this will produce the smoothest shooting setup...

  25. #100
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    maybe simple question

    Hello,
    I am from Germany and my English is not very good.
    So I have a question about your post.
    You write: "If limbs are bottomed out". What does this mean?
    Does it mean to set the bow to its higest drawing weight?
    Screw in the limb bolts completely?

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