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Thread: Hoyt Draw Stop Timing (Revised)

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by theTarget
    Hello,
    I am from Germany and my English is not very good.
    So I have a question about your post.
    You write: "If limbs are bottomed out". What does this mean?
    Does it mean to set the bow to its higest drawing weight?
    Screw in the limb bolts completely?
    Yes...



  2. #102
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    Just wanted to say thanks for all of the info regarding sync and timing the cam & 1/2.

    Great solid wall!

    Really says something when it all comes together, sight in the fp's and the bh's hit the identical spot the fp's do. After getting the cams in sync and timed, paper tuned bare shaft and bingo, bullet hole. Group tune was a breeze with a minimal move on the nock set to bring the bh up to the fp poi. The ultratec hasn't shot this well....ever.

    Thanks Javi

  3. #103

    Help required

    Hi I 'm new to this site and was wanting to ask a question about this post.

    I have a reflex timberwolf 2005 model I have just replaced my cables and string with a full set of winners chioce. I have made sure length of cables and strings were the same before fitting. I have made sure as at the start of this thread the timing is correct. Reference marks line up with cables. In fact everything looks like its normal.
    The only thing is my bow sounds noisy compared to before. The noise sounds like its coming from around the top cam, and its kind a like low pitch metal sound.This noise only happens once arrow is released not on draw back.

    Can anyone shed some light on this for me it would be muchly apreciated.

  4. #104
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    silly newbie question, but......

    Will adjusting the draw length module and/or changing the draw weight of the bow from full tiller and 'D' hole setting cause the draw stop timing to change? After reading this thread, I looked at my UltraSport's timing and noticed the top cam was under-rotated according to the pictures supplied; Yet when I asked my pro shop about this, he drew the bow back, quickly looked at both cams and said everything looked fine to him. (I think he was looking at cam synch only.) I recently significantly changed the draw weight, (from 40# to 57# - limbs are rated 50#- 60#) and the hand shock was horrendous. It previously didn't seem to have ANY. Pro shop suggested backing down on the draw weight a little (its at 54# now), and that seemed to help it some, as maybe did another stabilizer, but its still there and still quite noticeable.
    I guess I'm wondering if the thing IS in time, it just doesn't look it because its not at max draw weight and the draw length module isn't in the 'D' hole; and if it IS out of time, would it explain the hand and arm numbing shock it developed?Thanks for any help.

  5. #105
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    ??????

    javi and/or steve,

    i recently put new strings on my trykon xl. has a 29' draw, 50-60lb limbs. here's my dilemna... It vibrates bad. now i got as far as having it a 1/4" longer for the axle to axle, but how do I know that the cams are out if time. what do I reference on the cam for this bow to know that they are out of wack. the 2 lines on the bottom cam are the only thing i can see and when the bow is at rest it is right in the middle of the lines. I've been told to follow your setup for this but I get confused as to where to look on this cam . now which way do I go to lets say if it is over rotated?? do I use the buss or the control. I have to do this myself so it is hard to tell. if I have my wife help me i suppose I'll need pics of the actual cams that I use for her to understand what I am doing. I took it to an archery shop but he doesn't deal with hoyts that much and really didn't know what to do. any advice would be super help.

    thanks,

    Dan
    Hoyt Vectrix 29" 50-60 lbs(maxed out) QAD Ultra-Rest CX Maxima 350 arrows
    VBG Camelback Pendulum RAGE 100gr 2 blade broadheads

    If some of our teenage thrill seekers really want to go out and get a thrill,
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildthingdownun
    Hi I 'm new to this site and was wanting to ask a question about this post.

    I have a reflex timberwolf 2005 model I have just replaced my cables and string with a full set of winners chioce. I have made sure length of cables and strings were the same before fitting. I have made sure as at the start of this thread the timing is correct. Reference marks line up with cables. In fact everything looks like its normal.
    The only thing is my bow sounds noisy compared to before. The noise sounds like its coming from around the top cam, and its kind a like low pitch metal sound.This noise only happens once arrow is released not on draw back.

    Can anyone shed some light on this for me it would be muchly apreciated.
    There could be a lot of reasons, so I can't tell you that "this or that" will solve your problem.

    First, if it seems to be from one cam, it sounds like maybe you have a loose e-clip on the axel. Perhaps a worn or missing cam spacer. Shooting a bow with a missing or loose e-clip is a very bad thing, so check it out right now.

    Second, if the above did not solve the problem, have a friend stand near but off the side and listen to the shot. Do not thell them what you are hearing, but ask them what "they" hear. Sometimmes we hear things that are confused because of the way sounds moves around our bodies. It is possible that the sound is coming from a rest, a loose peep insert (Super Peep), etc., and you are hearing the location incorrectly.

    Third, keeping the cable and strings the same length is almost impossible. A single half twist will not change you length enough to measure, but makes a huge difference in timing and sync. If all of the above checks out, start with JAVI's method and start over.

    Last, and perhaps this should have been third, what string material did you take off and what material did you put on? If the noise is coming from the whole bow, and you changed from one string material to another, this might be the nature of the new string material. No, this should have been last, it is not very likley.

  7. #107
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    If you changed the draw weight by turning the top and bottom limb bolts exactly the same, you would not have changed timing or sync. Only a slight change would have occured on brace height and 'axel to axel'. You could measure a change in tiller, but it will not be unbalanced. Now, how exactly were your limb bolts turned?

    My guess is that your Pro Shop is either not really "pros" or they are giving you the cold shoulder. "horrendous" hand shock on a properly tuned cam 1.5 and the other HOYT cams derived from it is never normal. If the bow was properly tuned, it most assuradly would not be "horrendous". Here is what I think is happening.

    At lower poundage, the bow is developing less potential energy. As you increase the draw weight, the increase in potential energy must be released to the arrow in kenetic energy and to the air as vibration. If the bow is not tuned correctly, the vibration will become quite noticable, and even "horrendous". At the lower poundage, the vibration is still there, but is proportionally less.

    Take the bow to another "Pro Shop". At least, take it to another tech in the local "pro shop" and try to get him to do it right.

    Of course, you can learn to tune it yourself. Now you know the reason so many of us do our own. JAVI's method is a great method to follow.


    Quote Originally Posted by StevenB-NC
    Will adjusting the draw length module and/or changing the draw weight of the bow from full tiller and 'D' hole setting cause the draw stop timing to change? After reading this thread, I looked at my UltraSport's timing and noticed the top cam was under-rotated according to the pictures supplied; Yet when I asked my pro shop about this, he drew the bow back, quickly looked at both cams and said everything looked fine to him. (I think he was looking at cam synch only.) I recently significantly changed the draw weight, (from 40# to 57# - limbs are rated 50#- 60#) and the hand shock was horrendous. It previously didn't seem to have ANY. Pro shop suggested backing down on the draw weight a little (its at 54# now), and that seemed to help it some, as maybe did another stabilizer, but its still there and still quite noticeable.
    I guess I'm wondering if the thing IS in time, it just doesn't look it because its not at max draw weight and the draw length module isn't in the 'D' hole; and if it IS out of time, would it explain the hand and arm numbing shock it developed?Thanks for any help.

  8. #108
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    Sorry it took so long to respond, I was out hunting last week

    I am quite sure that the bow is not tuned now. This is quite common with new strings. Did you know that you cannot measure the difference a single half turn makes on the string length, but it makes a huge difference in timing.

    My best advice is to go back to page one, post #1, of this thread, and print out the pictures. Than go down a couple of post to were JAVI gives his directions.

    Start with step one, follow it step by step, and it will come together for you. Remember also that the brace height, axle to axle, draw weight, do not need to be exact. You can get them that way, but for a new tuner, it is not really necessary.

    As for "how do I know that the cams are out if time?", the pictures show this pretty well, but to help out a little, the cables at full draw contact a "flat" spot on the top and bottom cams. Look for this cam spot or lobe and see if the cables are touching the flat spots at the same exact time. In addition, Hoyt has the cable stop post on the bottom cam (I think it is the bottom, my bow is not in front of me ), this should touch the cable at the same time both cables touch the flat spots on the cams (touching a little early actually gives you a more "solid" wall, but I try to get it to touch at the same time to perserve sync).

    It really is not as tough is it first looks. You and your wife will have this down in no time.

    Quote Originally Posted by danbear
    javi and/or steve,

    i recently put new strings on my trykon xl. has a 29' draw, 50-60lb limbs. here's my dilemna... It vibrates bad. now i got as far as having it a 1/4" longer for the axle to axle, but how do I know that the cams are out if time. what do I reference on the cam for this bow to know that they are out of wack. the 2 lines on the bottom cam are the only thing i can see and when the bow is at rest it is right in the middle of the lines. I've been told to follow your setup for this but I get confused as to where to look on this cam . now which way do I go to lets say if it is over rotated?? do I use the buss or the control. I have to do this myself so it is hard to tell. if I have my wife help me i suppose I'll need pics of the actual cams that I use for her to understand what I am doing. I took it to an archery shop but he doesn't deal with hoyts that much and really didn't know what to do. any advice would be super help.

    thanks,

    Dan

  9. #109
    Thanks to both Javi and Steve. This worked great for me. I built a crank board and tuned my Trykon, 2 xTec's and an MT Sport. I must say that these bows are shooting better than my proshop EVER had them shooting. EVERYTHING seems so much more solid. I will never again be a slave to the proshop.
    '12 Carbon Matrix RKT Bone Collector
    '11 Carbon Matrix Plus Blackout Bone Collector w/Z3 conversion

  10. #110

    Thumbs up Help Javi!

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVI
    posting the other information in the thread as well... Hope this helps...

    Hybrid Cam Sync & Timing
    By Mike Javi.... Cooper



    The timing system on the hybrid cams is somewhat different from other systems.

    The cams need to be in synchronization and in draw stop timing; these are two entirely different issues but interconnected. It is possible to have the cams in sync, but not in time and visa versa.

    The string is for all practical purposes, just along for the ride, the buss cable (yoke) controls the bow, and it is used to set the axle to axle (limb) preload and takes most of the weight of the limb deflection at full draw. The control cable (slave) ties the two cams together so that they rotate at the required speeds.

    The reference marks or holes (depending on the cam) are there to provide a visual reference to cam synchronization not draw stop timing. I find that tiller is a more precise indicator of cam sync; if the limbs are bottomed out the tiller will reflect the position of the cams better than the reference holes (marks).

    To adjust the cams, I back the string off until I’m sure it isn’t affecting the axle to axle (usually ten twists will do) then adjust the buss cable to bring the axle to axle measurement to a ¼” longer than the specifications for that particular cam/limb combination (see Hoyt tune charts). The control cable should be used to sync the rotation of the cams while doing this. If the cams are in sync at this point the reference holes will be equidistance from their respective cables and the tiller will be even (limbs bottomed out).

    Now is the time to adjust the draw stop timing, using a draw board or similar device (you can draw the bow and have someone else look at the cams) when the bottom cam’s draw stop is just touching the buss cable, the control cable should lay flat in the groove of the top cam. If the cam is under rotated you can put a twist in the buss or untwist the control, I determine which I do by the draw weight and draw length of the bow. Shortening the buss cable will lengthen the draw and increase the draw weight. Shortening the control cable will decrease the draw length and decrease the draw weight.

    At this point, I measure the draw length (using AMO standards); it should be long and the draw weight should be higher than spec for the bow. I will then twist the string to bring the draw length to spec; this should also bring the draw weight and axle to axle into spec.

    I double check everything and tweak a half twist here or there to fine tune it.

    Finally I use the hybrid cam creep tuning method to set the bow to my shooting style.

    If you follow this method you will have a very solid wall and the bow will be practically vibration free.

    A note: the regular cam & ½ should be tuned in the “D” draw length slot for best performance. You can then set the module to your required DL and tweak the DL using the string.
    Javi, I'm having a little trouble understanding all of this. Does this method work the same fro the new Trykon w/ Zepher cams? B/C there is a draw stop at each cam. Is there any thing you need to do different on the Trykon? Thanks Keith

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith.richburg
    Javi, I'm having a little trouble understanding all of this. Does this method work the same fro the new Trykon w/ Zepher cams? B/C there is a draw stop at each cam. Is there any thing you need to do different on the Trykon? Thanks Keith
    Yes... and the only thing is you can't get the 1/4" on the parallel limbs..

  12. #112
    Javi, Thanks for the reply! I'm still kind of unsure on something though: When I'm checking cam timing on my 06 Trykon with the Zepher cams, I'm wathing to make sure that both black draw stops roll over and touch the cable at the same time, right? If that is the case, mine seems to be under rotated b/c the bottom cam draw stop touches before the top one does. In that case I would need to put a twist in the buss cable(shorten) or take a twist out of the control cable(lenghten), correct?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith.richburg
    Javi, Thanks for the reply! I'm still kind of unsure on something though: When I'm checking cam timing on my 06 Trykon with the Zepher cams, I'm wathing to make sure that both black draw stops roll over and touch the cable at the same time, right? If that is the case, mine seems to be under rotated b/c the bottom cam draw stop touches before the top one does. In that case I would need to put a twist in the buss cable(shorten) or take a twist out of the control cable(lenghten), correct?
    Yes...

  14. #114
    Thanks Javi!

  15. #115
    Javi, OK draw stop timing is dead on! Cam syn is dead on! Tiller is dead on! The Hoyt tune chart shows axle to axle at 32 1/8". On side is dead on at 32 1/8" the other is at 32 3/16". I have winners choice strings on this bow. What do I need to do to fix this problem?

  16. #116
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    May 2005
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    Javi - Tow weeks ago my Ultratec was spot on after following your directions. I noticed two days ago that I had a strand on my buss cable broken.

    New cables made and installed.

    I see now that my cables aren't equaldistance to the reference holes.

    I set the module in the D setting per Hoyt's tuning chart. Following your directions I Untwisted the string, Twisted the buss to achieve ATA, timed the cams so the bottom and top cam hit exactly the same time. The wall is solid.

    Now the tiller and BH are higher by 1/4" than they were prior to putting on the new cables and the cables aren't exactly equaldistance as they were prior to the new cables.

    I've basicly taken all twists out of the cables and re-twisted to bring everything back, but still seeing a discrepancy in tiller, BH, and the reference holes.

    What am I missing???? What should I re-do?

    Very confused at this point.

  17. #117
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    You probably need to start over...

    when you twist or un twist do it 1 twist at a time... even a 1/2 twist can move thing a bunch...

    And don't forget to measure draw length and draw weight during the process. The job isn't complete until you have Draw length, draw weight, cam sync and draw stop timing correct.

  18. #118

    Thanks. Chasing out the ghosts in the machine...

    To all on this post, and esp. Javi,

    Just saying thanks for making archery completely addicting, rather than just consuming. What is really great is that after this post I have the beginings of what it may take to understand how this bow of mine actually works. I can shoot pretty well, OK enough to whack deer, but it will be alot more fun when I can really sense how the bow is working as well as I can sense how my hand, for example, is working.

    Thanks for the significant contributions.

    JK
    ----------------
    Guardian 27/62
    Sword Apex Hunter
    QAD HD Drop Away
    Fuse stabilizer
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  19. #119
    Hi folks.

    I have 2006 UltraTec, Cam 1/2, 65% let off. I noticed recently that the drawlength was about 3/4" longer than spec, so I set out to do Javi's tuning method. I've done this before on my old bow, so I'm happy doing this. However I'm not sure I've done it right this time...

    I backed 10 twists off the string, adjusted the bus cable to get the A-to-A to be 1/4" longer than spec and adjusted the control cable to get the tiller even. I seemed to get that spot on. At this point the cables were directly over the reference holes.

    Next I adjusted the control cable 1 or 2 turns to get the draw stops to be in time. Again this seemed to go ok (tiller was now a fraction out, but only a fraction). The cables were still over the reference holes.

    Now, at this point Javi says that the draw length should be long (in his printable instructions he says 1/4" long) and the draw weight should be higher than spec.
    This is where it starts to go wrong for me The draw length was about 1/2" to 3/4" long and the weight was 2-3 pounds under spec.

    I put a couple of twists on both cables to shorten the A-to-A (which was longer than spec still) which got the draw weight back to spec without affecting the tiller (still almost even), draw stop timing, or draw length (still 1/2" to 3/4") long.

    Now, I twisted up the string to get the draw length back to spec. However, I had to put quite a lot of twists on the string and the cams look like they are over-rotated, I mean both cams are rotated in towards the bow more than they should be (compared to my old Ultratec), not the draw stop timing.

    At this point the bus cable is 1/4" to 1/2" inch away from its reference hole (tiller still even) and the bracing height is higher than spec and the A-to-A is a 1/16" too long.

    So, any ideas where I might have gone wrong?

    I'm shooting low let off modules (65%) - are there different cams for different let of modules or do both the high and low let off modules use the same cam? and could that be wrong?

    Also, should the draw length be measured when the draw stops are just touching the cables, or when the bow is pulled hard into the wall (makes about 1/4" difference to draw length)?

    Thanks for any help (and the great instructions Javi!)
    Chris .

  20. #120
    Hi fellows, first time posting here, I'm going through putting on new strings on my ultra-tec I have been following the the thread and have a question for you guys I have done everything so far it says up to checking tiller , mine is out and don't know which strings need twisting ? My tiller is bigger on the top. Any help? Glenn

  21. #121
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    Hoyt Trykon

    Am I correct with the understanding that you can lengthen the control cable and this would put the nock in an upward travel upon release and the opposite when it is shortened ?

    Thanks much for the reply.

  22. #122
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    Javi,

    This is a great post. Is this a Power Point file? If so I would love to have a copy if that is possible.

  23. #123
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    Has anyone worked with tuning the C2 cams yet?Would it be just like tuning spirals?
    Yman

  24. #124
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    Hello Javi,

    how do you set the draw weight before you start the whole procedure?
    I have a Hoyt Protec with 50 - 60 lbs. Do I have to set it to the maximum
    of 60 lbs before I start?
    Because after the procedure you set the draw weight again to some
    reference (the maximum of 60 lbs)?

    Thanks

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by theTarget
    Hello Javi,

    how do you set the draw weight before you start the whole procedure?
    I have a Hoyt Protec with 50 - 60 lbs. Do I have to set it to the maximum
    of 60 lbs before I start?
    Because after the procedure you set the draw weight again to some
    reference (the maximum of 60 lbs)?

    Thanks
    I check the draw weight with the limbs bottomed... this id how the proceedure is done with the limbs bottomed out... So yep if your goal is 60 lbs and you have limbs which produce 60 pounds...

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