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Thread: Climbing to 17+ ft. w/2 Muddy Sticks!!!

  1. #26
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    I'm definitely interested in seeing this.

    David

    2013 Tenpoint Titan Xtreme, BE Executioners
    2012 Bowtech Insanity CPX - 51.5 lb, 28" DL
    Spot Hogg Hunter w/Wrap, QAD HDX, Beman ICS Hunter 400s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade
    2011 Diamond Razor Edge - 50 lb, 28.5" DL
    Redhead Carbon Fury 4560s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade


  2. #27
    Oh man I was believing everything until I heard how you got your user name. The mentioned company has never had any limb problems.

  3. #28
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    Pics please..... That link didn't work
    Elite Energy 35
    JBK Bowstrings Pro-Staff

  4. #29
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    I'm having the same problem everyone else is..... Pictures are uploading, but not showing..... Possibly the resolution was too high.

    Here's a smaller version:

    DSC00372s.jpg

    Attach the Muddy stick to the tree as high as you can reach... Loop the runner through the aider (center it), hang both loops over the closed lower foot peg, and open the peg..... DONE!

    With peg open, aider cannot detach, as long as it is not frayed or damaged.... (These things are extremely strong, made of Dyneema, or something similar. They are used in rock climbing. Do the research and check the capacities for yourself.)

    Whenever I'm climbing, I worry about the strength of the pegs themselves, never about standing on the aider steps. As you can see, all the "load" is balanced on the center of the Muddy stick's lower foot peg (the smooth oval shaped foot peg mount), not on the pegs themselves.

    Walking around with 2 Muddy sticks is a lot lighter than carrying 4 of them!
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  5. #30
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    One other caveat: Like all straps, uv and sunlight eventually will "take a toll" on both the aiders and the runners..... (How many seasons/years before they become "compromised", I don't know. ~ It's not like they are out year round, or even seasonally for that matter.) ~ That's a good question for either the manufacturer or possibly a "rock climbing store"....

    If a component becomes frayed, you obviously should replace it.

    PS: Strength: The runners (the "thin" white looking straps connecting aider to Muddy sticks) are rated at 22kN... Using a (kN to pounds) conversion calculator (that I found online), that number converted to a breaking strength of about 5,000 pounds! They are made of Dynex (Spectra). I'm not sure about the aiders, (which incidentally have a 3 year manufacturer warranty), but since they are designed as rock climbing gear..... I'm not in the least bit worried.

    I did talk with a rock climbing gear store last summer/fall, and they said that both the Dynex and Dyneema are both incredibly strong and both had similar properties..... (2 different manufacturers, 2 brand names)
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  6. #31
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    Could everyone see the second replacement photo I uploaded?
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  7. #32
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    yes.

  8. #33
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    Any chance you can show an up close picture of how the runner and aider connect to one another and then to the stick? It looks like a slick system. One other question, how high is your stick's rope tied off? It looks like it's at least 7+ feet from the ground. How on earth do you tie something that high up, unless you're 6 feet something?

    David
    2013 Tenpoint Titan Xtreme, BE Executioners
    2012 Bowtech Insanity CPX - 51.5 lb, 28" DL
    Spot Hogg Hunter w/Wrap, QAD HDX, Beman ICS Hunter 400s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade
    2011 Diamond Razor Edge - 50 lb, 28.5" DL
    Redhead Carbon Fury 4560s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoda4x4 View Post
    Any chance you can show an up close picture of how the runner and aider connect to one another and then to the stick? It looks like a slick system.

    David
    I can get a up close photo and upload it this evening. It's very simple. As for the aider, they have a small load bearing loop at the top used to connect rope etc. I just slide the runner (the white connector which is also a loop, 10 mm. wide x 30 mm. in diameter in photo) 1/2 way through this loop on the aider. Then I hang both sides over the closed Muddy foot pegs before opening them. ~ Super fast.

    The weakest part of this setup are the sticks themselves. (The Muddy stick ropes and the footpegs in particular.) ~ I don't know exactly how the ropes on the muddy are attached. Some day I'm going to take one apart to take a peek. If anyone could comment on the Muddy stick rope assembly, I'd appreciate it.
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenLimbs View Post
    I can get a up close photo and upload it this evening. It's very simple. As for the aider, they have a small load bearing loop at the top used to connect rope etc. I just slide the runner (the white connector which is also a loop, 10 mm. wide x 30 mm. in diameter in photo) 1/2 way through this loop on the aider. Then I hang both sides over the closed Muddy foot pegs before opening them. ~ Super fast.
    Ok, that makes sense. And how did you get the stick up so high? As I mentioned before, it looks like it's at least 7 feet high to the rope.

    David
    2013 Tenpoint Titan Xtreme, BE Executioners
    2012 Bowtech Insanity CPX - 51.5 lb, 28" DL
    Spot Hogg Hunter w/Wrap, QAD HDX, Beman ICS Hunter 400s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade
    2011 Diamond Razor Edge - 50 lb, 28.5" DL
    Redhead Carbon Fury 4560s, Magnus Buzzcuts 125gr 2 blade

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoda4x4 View Post
    Ok, that makes sense. And how did you get the stick up so high? As I mentioned before, it looks like it's at least 7 feet high to the rope.

    David
    I just reached up as far as I could and rapped & locked the rope in the cam buckle. (And then swooped the rope back through so it can't come loose/come out of the cam buckle as Muddy instructs.) A 6 ft. tall guy can get the rope to about 7 ft. on a "normal" diameter tree. The top step is 1/2 a foot higher than that, so it's at about 7.5 ft..... Once you're up on the top peg of the first stick, put the second up the same way. Voila ~15 ft. off of two 20" sticks!

    I think this is about as "good as it gets" in terms of travelling light..... (Of course I also use one peg on a quick attach strap and one Jim Stepp Stepp Ladder to get a few extra feet out of the two sticks.) Once it's all setup, my feet are at close to 18 ft. I'm very cautious, and I don't find climbing and descending (a fairly straight tree) very difficult at all. Just remember to use a fairly vertical tree, you don't want a twisty tree, or to climb a tree that is leaning back at you. (If there is very slight lean to a tree I just climb the other side.)
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  12. #37
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    I do something very similar. Ill post pictures later.


    Www.thepathlesswoods.com

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahawk19 View Post
    I do something very similar. Ill post pictures later.


    Www.thepathlesswoods.com
    Can't wait to see how you're doing it..... I'm going to do a little shooting, and head out for an afternoon hunt. I passed up on a small doe this morning. (first potential deer of the season) This morning I was hunting out of one of my I.T.S (Innovative Tree Stands) Flex-E Ladders. ~ This afternoon, I'll be in "one of these setups."

    PS: Deer hunting around here is excruciatingly difficult. We have a "very lean" deer population to put it mildly..... I think there are only about 4 or 5 deer per square mile.
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  14. #39
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    Thanks for the pic. With you standing in the bottom aider loop, what is the distance from the bottom aider loop to the stick's lowest foot peg?

  15. #40
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    I'm using 3 sticks setup like this. I am 5'9" so the taller guys out there could stretch this on out, but at my height I am getting 88 inches out of one stick. 7'4" then I step up on my ameristeps to get me around the 23' mark.

    This is just a handmade ladder made from 14' of tubular webbing using double figure 8 knots to attach to the steps. I stole the idea from someone else on AT (I don't remember who), but I take no credit for the idea.


    Www.thepathlesswoods.com

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahawk19 View Post
    I'm using 3 sticks setup like this. I am 5'9" so the taller guys out there could stretch this on out, but at my height I am getting 88 inches out of one stick. 7'4" then I step up on my ameristeps to get me around the 23' mark.

    This is just a handmade ladder made from 14' of tubular webbing using double figure 8 knots to attach to the steps. I stole the idea from someone else on AT (I don't remember who), but I take no credit for the idea.
    No stability issues with your setup, right? ~ I suspect your ladder is even more stable than what I'm using. It's just bulkier.

    I hunted out of my setup again this evening. The darn Jim Stepp "Stepp ladder step" (bottom) slipped again to the side, about 6 inches (coming down) on a beach nut tree..... (I only use one of them at/near the bottom at around 3 feet, ONLY as a platform for setting up the first Muddy assembly, so it's no huge deal.... (I need pegs at the top as a resting platform for hunting out of my Trophyline harnesses.) I too add 2 or 3 Ameristep plastic foot pegs on a HEAVY duty ratchet strap to complete the top "platform" setup.) Regardless, IMO, those "Jim Stepp Stepps" are potentially extremely dangerous at higher heights, because they are so prone to slipping. ~ They slip regardless of how tight they are snapped to the tree when/if your weight is not balanced exactly on center.

    One of the really cool aspects of this setup is it takes more time to prep the equipment on the ground than it does to go up the tree. (and that doesn't take long either) ~ After snapping Stepp to the bottom of the tree, I was at about 15 feet this evening in about 5 minutes..... (I didn't use the extra peg at the bottom this evening for the added 2 feet. Too high given the tree cover.)

    PS: One big plus is this is also the quietest (crazy quiet) way to climb that I've ever encountered....
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  17. #42
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    Tagged

  18. #43
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    Please be careful doing this setup man..... I just don't know if the safety risk is worth not having to carry 2 more sticks.

    Isn't it extremely hard in the dark when you're climbing down? I would think it would be hard to get your boots into those steps when they're sitting against the tree in the dark?
    Elite Energy 35
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by InjunJR View Post
    Please be careful doing this setup man..... I just don't know if the safety risk is worth not having to carry 2 more sticks.

    Isn't it extremely hard in the dark when you're climbing down? I would think it would be hard to get your boots into those steps when they're sitting against the tree in the dark?
    I'm extremely careful! And I trust the aiders (and myself) more than the Muddy sticks themselves! ~ I think that is "key" to safely using this technique. (I do appreciate your candid recommendations & warnings.)

    As I stated in my first post: I'm not suggesting anyone tries any of this. I'm just sharing what works for me. Bottom line: It's not difficult (for me) at all. YMMV.... When coming down, I simply start out bracing myself by keeping my left arm on the top peg, my right arm on the lower peg. With a lowered right shoulder, I can easily see & manipulate the top (right hand loop) of the aider with my toe. Once the first boot is in properly, that keeps the second loop away from the tree and kicks it slightly to the side...... They key here (as you get towards the lowest aider loop) is to make sure you're securely bracing yourself (and using your arm muscles) with the pegs. IMO, these short aiders make all the difference. Any longer would be too long.....

    Never climb the side of the tree leaning towards you (or leaning left/right for that matter.) That allows your toe to slip away from the tree. And remember, whenever my feet are in an aider loop, I have both hands firmly grabbing/holding the pegs for stability & weight distribution! (I also keep a portion of my weight suspended like this as I get near the lowest steps of the aider, just in case my foot kicks to the side.) This is crucial. Honestly, I find it easier to climb/descend this way than by using pegs on a tree!

    Also, the highest step (on this particular aider) is very close to the lower peg. This helps considerably. (So close that when going up, I frequently don't even use it. But when going down, it allows me to stand on the lower peg and only slightly bend my leg. If it takes extra time to get the aider into position (so my toe/boot is 1/2 way into the step/loop, it's no big deal.... I'm not "fighting against time" as my leg gets tired!

    Having climbed using this method for almost a whole season, I personally find it no more difficult/dangerous than climbing using any other method. IMO, there are also a lot of safety benefits that mitigate the risks. 1.) Only having to carry up and manipulate one stick. (The lowest one is already around the tree which only gets lifted, and only needs lifting if you're using "booster steps.") 2.) The speed of setup. Very little time is needed, about 5 minutes to "install" and climb both sticks. And you're never stuck standing on one foot (in an awkward position) like you do with pegs on a tree.... (that sucks the strength out of your leg) 3.) Only 2 sticks are being used that can fail. (And only one of them is higher than 10 ft.) To be totally honest, I think that if a Muddy stick peg fails, both sides fail? (Because each peg opens and braces itself against the other peg.)

    If you don't have the hand or arm strength to hold your own weight (hang) from a pole, you definitely shouldn't be using this method. (Probably shouldn't be climbing trees in the first place anyways.) ~ It's not that you have to hold your weight like this, unless you need to recover if your toe ever slips out to the side on one of the lower loops of the adier. NOTE: I have yet to experience this problem using this technique......

    The one and largest RISK about using this method is picking a strange tree angle to ascend where you foot can easily "slip to the side" on the lower steps of the aiders. To address this issue, it is paramount to use the Muddy stick foot pegs as a brace while climbing. Not only does this allow you to distribute your climbing weight partially to your arms (which makes it much easier to climb incidentally), but it also gives you the leverage needed in the event you have "chosen a poor tree angle to ascend." (trees can be deceiving) Holding the tree (instead of the pegs) doesn't address this risk, and that's what got me into a very dangerous situation last fall when trying to climb with aiders and "Jim Stepp Stepps." ~ Last fall, I learned & lived through this "near disaster."

    PS: Last evening, I decided not to keep my stand in it's location. Not only did I disassemble my top platform, but I also pulled the sticks as I came down. I had my backpack on my back, and my bow hanging off my hip to save time. My big surprise was when I was stepping down off the lower "Jim Stepp Stepp" and as usual, it slipped to the side (off the beach nut tree) and my last step to the ground came unexpectedly fast. ~ And my boot hit the lower limb of my bow when this happened, as it was hanging off my right hip. Unfortunately, those "Stepps" are crucial at the bottom for a little extra height. (Because you need both feet centered on this so you can reach up as high as possible to hang the first stick.) If I tighten them any further, I think the aluminum is going to fail....

    Note: When setting up, and usually when pulling down: I have para chord attached to my pack on the ground. And the pack is tethered to my bow with a Doyle's lift. (So as the pack comes up and down, the lift reels/unreels.)
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  20. #45
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    You have my curiosity up. If you have cranford steps and the jim step stepladder system and muddy sticks, why would you want to take all those chances and spend the extra money?
    Jim Litmer VP Sales www.thirdhandarchery.com 1-800-339-0232
    International customers please order by email thirdhandinc@twc.com

    The original Made in the USA

    "Hunt safe today, so you can hunt again tomorrow".

  21. #46
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    I should also add this:

    Last fall, when I first began using this method, I was very leery about it, and extremely apprehensive... (I'm always cautious, and try to be as safe as possible.)

    Even so, I had just experienced a "mishap" using the original technique (same loops and aiders, but with Jim Stepp Stepps) 15+ ft. up, a mishap that could have been fatal..... At 15+ ft. up, my right boot slipped off the tree to the left and with nothing to hold: I slid down tree about over 5 ft., and was left "bear hugging" the tree almost inverted with my body shaped like a "boomerang!" (with my foot over my head in loop of the aider) ~ Seconds before the incident, my boot initially slipped and I recovered. I thought to myself: "Oops, I guess I just wasn't being cautious." I immediately proceeded to try the same maneuver a second time (being as cautious as possible) and WHAMMO!!!!

    Several weeks later, I was using my 4 sticks one day and got to thinking to myself about someone here on a/t who was making "loop extenders" for Lone Wolf climbing sticks. This gave me the idea.....

    That afternoon, I took a close look at the Muddy sticks and thought to myself: "Wow, the stuff I can't safely use with the "Jim Stepp Stepps" looks like it might also work perfectly with these sticks."

    At first I was very nervous about trying this technique using the sticks instead. But after a few climbs I realized the HUGE difference was in the structure of the sticks that provided stability and safety (IMO)...... After almost a season of climbing this way, it has actually become my preferred method of ascent/descent!

    I can't help but wonder whether I should try and replace all the bolts on the Muddy sticks with a higher grade/stronger steel.... As I previously mentioned: It's the metal (stick pegs & attachment rope connections) that make me nervous.
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  22. #47
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    This post contains photos of what "didn't work" last summer/fall. (And "didn't work" is an understatement!) It could have been the end of me. It's on the "climbing without sticks" thread hereon a/t..... (Which is also where I got the inspiration to try new methods.)

    http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...post1065150548

    Note: I have other posts on this thread leading up to this photo, indicating "how easy it was to climb." using 4 "Jim Stepp Stepp Ladders" & 4 aider assemblies. ~ It was in fact easy, BUT JUST NOT SAFE whatsoever as I found out "the hard way" when my toe slipped off the tree @ almost 20 ft from the bottom aider loop! (I had nothing to hold but the tree itself, so I slid down, and slid down FAST!)
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  23. #48
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    I tried the aiders & just never got comfortable with them. If you have something to hang onto like your stick it's ok, but without a hand hold it's a pia. Couple question what's your setup weight & what harness are you using?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHMTitan View Post
    Thanks for the pic. With you standing in the bottom aider loop, what is the distance from the bottom aider loop to the stick's lowest foot peg?
    I forgot to take exact measurements yesterday, sorry....
    The short answer: The aiders are about 4 ft. in length so that's what you can expect (providing you can attach the sticks high enough to use all 4 feet.)

    BHMTitan sent me a PM indicating he was contemplating using this technique using different/longer sticks because he was curious as to how much distance he could/would gain.....

    I want to suggest that there are likely safety concerns regarding stick selection and stick lengths.

    I had previously contemplated safety implications of using longer/different style sticks (which are only useful if you can reach high enough anyways.) ~ I don't know how this effects safety as I'm not an engineer. (Is the bottom stick fork/tree mount more likely to slip to the side if your toe slips to the side while climbing??? I suspect it might well be.)

    On a related note: I'm not sure whether pivoting fork/tree mounts (on the sticks) are better or worse than non pivoting ones. The Muddy sticks can pivot so they grasp the tree exceptionally well when using them 100% conventionally. I think it all comes down to the metal components/designs (and the possibilities of applying unexpected lateral stress, should either/both your toe and/or lower fork/tree-stick mount slip to the side.)

    One thing I do suspect may be extremely important regarding stick selection is: Selecting a stick that allows for the aider attachment point to be vertically at the same spot that the lower fork/tree mount secures the stick to the tree. (If there is any significant distance between the two points, a toe slipping off to the side of the tree while climbing the aider portion could add stress between the two points and cause the stick to fail.)

    One thing I can tell you is the Muddy sticks "just feel right" for this application in terms of length and design...... Any longer and I wouldn't be able to use all 4 feet of the aider. Also, the distance between the upper and lower pegs seems to be just right (for me) with regards to using my arms to climb/descend while ensuring stability while using the bottom step(s) of the aider. The double steps not only make climbing easier, but they effectively lock the white connecting loops (connecting the aider to the stick) quickly & easily into place....
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbigbear View Post
    I tried the aiders & just never got comfortable with them. If you have something to hang onto like your stick it's ok, but without a hand hold it's a pia. Couple question what's your setup weight & what harness are you using?
    I"m 210 lbs. (without gear/clothing). You are completely correct with regards to needing the sticks to hang onto. (A "lesson" I learned the hard way last fall.) Without the "structure & stability" of the sticks to hold (as a brace) & use while climbing..... It's not only a "pia" but also potentially life threatening when (not if) your boot toe slips to the side of the tree unexpectedly. ~ As for a "safety harness", I hunt from tree saddles (the late Trophyline) which has a built in linesman belt which I keep "draped" around the back of the tree (and over the stick's foot pegs above) as I climb/descend. Once I'm in the tree at height, I'm tethered to the tree from above using a 5000 lb rope that I "hang" from to pivot around the tree. (My stand literally becomes my safety harness/tether.)
    --------------------------------
    "RoadTrips" Tree Saddle, Muddy Sticks & Petzl Aiders?..... "A Killer Combo!"
    My limbs are just fine.... Unlike the '02 TomKat that "detonated" (limbs failed twice) many years ago!

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