October 24th, 2013, 12:14 PM
Ken, honest question- I thought Rick's hand wound up higher on his face, relative to his eye, than your anchor. I just mention that because it seems that he has his hand almost a finger's width closer to his eye than you do (facial construction differences)?
I'm a big fan of Masters of the Barebow vol. 3, Rick Welch's Accuracy Factory, and Viper's book Shooting the Stickbow. All good references when starting out.
October 24th, 2013, 02:35 PM
OK girls, I took my own advice. I watched the videos that I recommended to the OP. Some are of Rick Welch shooting and others were his students. I know they only show the best shots of the students because it's not possible for all of them to make perfect shots all the time.
BUT, if any one of you watches those videos and can come back and tell me that you would not like to make shots like that, then I will gladly rest my case. (disclaimer; not applicable to those who can outshoot Mr. Welch)
Another thing I noticed that might be helpful for the OP to understand. None of those shooters, including Rick Welch himself, do everything exactly by the book. Of course there's Ricks famous release indicating that he does not use good back tension, the funky follow thru and possibly even a collapse before or during the funky release. But, who cares, the results speak louder than words. Proves to me again that the bow does not have to be perfectly straight, the anchor does not have to be in a certain place, the release can be less than perfect and still get good results.
October 24th, 2013, 03:14 PM
There is some truth in all advertising Forrest. It may just not be what you want to hear or see, if you're already sold.
October 24th, 2013, 03:21 PM
Kegan - I am not sure. I liked his advice about positioning your feathers and using one to touch the tip of your nose at full draw. He buts his hand on his face a bit differently than I do though and it is likely due to just difference in facial structure and what feels comfortable.
My anchor is based on two things, consistency and comfort. I cup my cheek bone, touch a tooth with my index finger, and touch the back of my thumb to my ear (along with the feather touching the tip of my nose). This gives me a comfortable, easy to find, consistent, and solid multipoint anchor. I never gave a thought to where the arrow was wr was not in relationship to my eye - that just is what it is.
October 24th, 2013, 03:30 PM
Do you line up the back of arrow with front or does your form/tuning take care of that?
I'm working on sight picture at blank bail today (it was snowing here this morning...lol) and lining up back with front and even though I lost a tad of anchor/draw it seems to be working?
October 24th, 2013, 08:54 PM
That's what I love about Trad archery its all about me....I screw up its me...I shoot great it's all about me....one thing I've learned over the last several years is the way I shoot the bow is all me...I took some pointers from ALOT of people and copied some stuff but basically my style came from shooting 10,000,000 arrows and settling into what works.
Forest Im not in anyway bashing Rick or his classes because I'm sure he has helped a whole bunch of shooters become better shooters but let's be honest if any student would spend 3 days with ANY world Class archer they would come away a much better archer at least for a while...
SKY TR7 Gold XCCB TR7 Limbs 42# White
SKY TR7 Silver XCCB TR7 Limbs 38# Black
Carbon Express CXL 250
carbon Express X Buster
October 24th, 2013, 09:37 PM
Ken, that's what I was thinking- same reference points (feather and ear) but different facial structure make them just that little bit different in terms of relation to the eye.
That might explain why he keeps outshooting you!
October 25th, 2013, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by vabowdog
I am sure that you're right. I only pointed the OP in that direction because he said that he was interested in the same things that Welch does. And, I know that there are videos out there that are easy to find which could be useful to the OP. It appears he lost interest though so looks like, dead thread.
October 26th, 2013, 12:03 AM
Thanks everyone for all the feedback. Really appreciate it. I have another question though.
If I'm shooting at a 20 yard target with a 40# longbow at a 27-28" draw, should my trajectory be pretty flat or would I have to aim a tiny bit higher? Reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to figure out why I have resorted to overdrawing and I think this might be it. My arrows' trajectory was not straight at 20 yards, like I was used to shooting at 10 yards, so I drew back further to increase my FPS and flatten my trajectory, when I should have just tried to aim a little higher.
The arrows I'm currently shooting (500 spine aluminum, 32" shafts) are considered heavy for a 40# bow, if I had lighter arrows like 600 spine carbons, would the trajectory of my arrows be flatter?
October 26th, 2013, 12:37 AM
I do not know what I do as far as that goes - my entire focus is on the spot that I want to hit, I do not consciously line up anything
Originally Posted by bradd7
October 26th, 2013, 12:41 AM
One thing about Rick's 3 day clinic - I have not heard one person who has attended it say that they did not feel it was worth it and had significant improvement in their shooting. I have heard several people over the years feel that some other clinics offered were a waste of time and money and their shooting did not improve at all.
I can personally speak to one. I attended the Black Widow Shooting Clinic with Fred Asbell and it did not help my shooting at all, maybe even hurt it. I learned a lot about arrow tuning and still hunting (Fred Asbell has great insights on ground hunting), but the shooting - total waste of time and money.
Rick also has taught at least two, maybe three shooters who went on themselves to become IBO World Champions - that says a lot if you ask me.
I know that of all the people I have shot with and met over the last 20+years - the tips that Rick Welch gave me helped my shooting more than all the rest combined.
October 26th, 2013, 01:26 AM
Here's a thought. How about putting an arrow on the string, come to anchor, focus on the spot, then, peek down and see how the arrow lines up. Then, you can answer ol' Bradd's question.
Originally Posted by sharpbroadhead
Form is everything.
October 26th, 2013, 03:11 AM
Why, it is not something I do - He asked if I line up the back of the arrow with the front - and I don't - I pay no attention to it - that is answering the question. Besides - how can the back of the arrow not be lined up with the front - the arrow is solid is it not? It is not a piece of spaghetti, the back would always be lined up with the front, how could it not? Unless the arrow is bent.
October 26th, 2013, 04:20 AM
I have heard a few people say that after a couple of months they were shooting back the way they were before, I don't think it's Ricks fault in that he is a bad teacher, I just think 1 to 3 days is too short a time for some people to absorb and retain all that information.
Originally Posted by sharpbroadhead
My personal opinion Archers will gain more by being taught 1-2 times a week over a couple of months, it gives them time to try things and ask questions and be reminded of the small details they sometimes forget.
October 26th, 2013, 07:57 AM
Not something you do--consciously, I suppose. I assumed bradd's question (actually) was, do you put the rear of the arrow under your eye, and line it up with the mark. I'd be curious to know, so why don't you do that, and report back.
Reason is, I've got a dear friend and hunting buddy who shoots instinctive. He anchors on the side of his face and says when he's a full draw the tip of the arrow is at 7 o'clock of the mark.
Form is everything.
October 26th, 2013, 09:13 AM
I assumed bradd's question (actually) was, do you put the rear of the arrow under your eye, and line it up with the mark
Yes Jim that's hat I meant. I'm just trying it out. Two ways I have found, either set draw shoulder back more or open up front. Seems it may shorten draw a tad in some cases but arrow comes off straighter. Like shooting down a tube.
Just curious to see if others had tried it?
October 26th, 2013, 09:36 AM
Even if a 500 (2016) at 32" is close spine wise, it's way too heavy for performance from a 40# bow.
Look, I'm shooting between 190 and 205 fps depending on the limbs I'm using, and the trajectory is no where near flat at 20 yds.
Given your size, the odds on you drawing 27 - 28" are slim to none.
With proper alignment/expansion and NO over drawing, you should have a longer draw length.
PROPERLY increasing your draw length will give you more speed than anything else, save going to lighter arrows.
BTW - if that actually is your DL, a 29" 1816 (0.756 spine) would be a good starting point.
That would weigh approx 350 grs with a NIBB / glue in target point.
“Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”
October 26th, 2013, 12:08 PM
If someone knows where their arrow tip is in relationship to the target as in 7 o'clock off the mark...they're not aiming Totally Instinctive. They're Gap aiming...but just may not know they're exact gaps and guesstimates....which is how I aim...but my arrow is always through the vertical line through the target at 6 o'clock, right on the target or at 12 o'clock.
For me...the back end of the arrow is always lined up with the front end and the target within my sight picture...but I know quite a few people who's arrow isn't because of shooting the opposite of their dominate eye and/or how they anchor.
Look how Rick Welch sets up his camera to represent an archer's sight picture.
In reality...the arrow is always pointed towards the target but I think some people don't quite understand how VISUALLY it may look different to another archer.
October 26th, 2013, 12:35 PM
When I shot Longbow my arrow wasn't lined up with my eye, it didn't seem a big problem (as long as you do the same thing) to tune the bow to allow for this, it was mostly just a comfy anchor for me.
Now that I'm shooting Barebow I made that effort to get the arrow directly in line with my eye (felt very weird at first) but now I have it nailed I can make good use of String blur to compensate for the dynamic spine changing on my crawls and not have to adjust plunger settings on longer shots.
I think if I went back to Longbow I would continue to try and get the arrow directly under the eye, it seems to cut down on those fliers when minor form errors happen.
October 26th, 2013, 01:31 PM
What in the world is Viper talking about? It is better to shoot an arrow that is weak in spine just because it is lighter in weight? I cannot believe he said this. Any experienced archer knows that a properly spined arrow is one of the most important aspects of accurate shooting.
I would MUCH rather shoot a heavier slower arrow that is the proper spine than an arrow that is lighter and faster, but weak in spine, ESPECIALLY if I planned to hunt!
This is archery 101!
But, since this is 2013, you don't even have to choose - you can have both.
You can have a light fast arrow that is tuned to your bow - for example - Carbontech Cheetah arrows are 6.1 grains per inch for a .525 spine.
The 1816 arrows that Viper recommends as being "lighter" are actually MUCH HEAVIER than the Carbontech, weighing in at 9.27 grains per inch!
Whatever you do, ALWAYS SHOOT THE PROPER SPINE ARROW that is tuned dynamically to your bow - Especially if you are a bowhunter.
That advice from Viper is not what most any experiences archer would give!
October 26th, 2013, 01:34 PM
Why don't I shoot the way you do or someone else, I don't know, I just don't. I look at what I want to hit, I sort of quickly visualize the shot and the arrow hitting the mark and then I draw, hit anchor (all the while looking at my spot), remind myself to keep my eye on the spot, and BANG - the shot goes off. That's what I do and what I think about when I shoot. I don't look at the arrow, I don't think about the arrow or where the back of the arrow is, etc...
Originally Posted by Jim Casto Jr
Obviously the arrow is pointed at the target or I wouldn't hit the target - it is just not something I think about it - I just do it. Do you think about which way to lean to stay upright while riding a bike - or do you just do it? Do you get you out a calculator and triangulate all the proper angles needed to throw a wad of paper in the trash or do you just do it?
October 26th, 2013, 01:46 PM
I doubt anything negative would happen if you drew your bow and peeked down to see how the arrow is aligned so bradd would know--I'd be curious too. A lot of folks shoot with their inferior eye and they surely don't have the arrow aligned.
Form is everything.
October 26th, 2013, 01:50 PM
Steve basically confirmed me keeping it. Rear sight. Good, repeatable alignment.
October 26th, 2013, 02:17 PM
TLY glad to have you. You will learn who to listen to on here. When you are discussing aluminum arrows Viper is your man and other subjects as well. If your draw is 27 then you are shooting about 37.5#s with your Montana. The 2016 is a load to push and should be a stiff arrow for your poundage. I shoot a 37# bow almost like the Montana and I shoot 1816's. You will have to forgive some of us on here we will argue about anything. Keep at it and let us know about how your arrows are hitting the target and the distance to the target. If you are 20 yards back I think you will see what Viper says about the 2016's being heavy for your bow. You will see a big drop in the arrow. You can buy a couple of arrows from Lancaster Archery in three different spines to see how they do in your bow. The spine charts you see around now are useless for aluminum in traditional bows.
October 26th, 2013, 02:53 PM
TLY if you are just stating with trad archery you can shoot the 2016's until you get to the point you can shoot a good group. They will group they will just not be the best spine for the bow. Just did not want you to think you need to go out and buy a dozen arrows now. They are some good videos on Youtube about the Montana. A lot of people shoot it.
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