a href="http://www.lancasterarchery.com/archery-classic-register/#header">
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: Horse bows vs recurves, ease of shooting, fun, and accuracy help

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    74

    Horse bows vs recurves, ease of shooting, fun, and accuracy help

    I'm interested in starting traditional archery. I've been looking at the Samick Sage or Greattree Goshawk as my starter bow

    Can one shoot at distances of 70meters with a "horse" bow (kaya kahn, bearpaw express) like this and shoot a respectable grouping or would a standard recurve be better ?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    LI. NY
    Posts
    15,355
    Mellow -

    If you're talking 70M accuracy you're beyond the range of what's considered "traditional" archery these days.
    Might be better off asking in the FITA forum.
    Both sighted and bare bow styles are discussed there.

    As far as "horse" bows, I'm sure there are videos on youtube showing unbelievable accuracy with them.
    Goes to show that anything may be possible.
    In reality, accuracy at extended ranges would be a stretch with a horse bow. At from what I've seen first hand.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    5,343
    Can one shoot at distances of 70meters with a "horse" bow (kaya kahn, bearpaw express) like this and shoot a respectable grouping or would a standard recurve be better ?
    I think you would be better suited with a standard recurve. I've shot horse bows, but not a lot. Some archers can do amazing things with them, but I can't imagine the practice and professional instruction required to get to that level.

    'Course Jimmy Blackmon has some videos of himself shooting...I think 140 yds or so, with a selfbow, and doing quiet well.

    Depends on your goals, your talents, and your dedication. A sighted compound would be the easiest route, at least with archery, but who said easiest is the most fun?
    Support the Future of Archery--Support the NASP

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC, Canada and Whidbey Island, WA
    Posts
    5,196
    If accuracy is your primary goal then skip the horse bow, they just aren't built for it.

    -Grant
    Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

  5. #5
    Korean style horsebows are used to shoot 70m+ ... they have the best looking long ranges in the world... but the target is like 6 by 12 feet.
    The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a bow, is a good guy with a bow

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Posts
    3,328
    I have a couple of Saluki bows if you do the work it's as accurate as any wood Recurve I've shot but it is less forgiving of Form errors, if you have good repeatable Form then no reason to shoot it any less than a normal bow. This is me shooting my Saluki Turk out to just over 35y.

    I work hard on my Form and shoot many different types of bow, the Horsebow is a challenge and think gives me the most fun and biggest smiles when I shoot them well




    Ever notice you see a lot of Trad shooters on Youtube and some of these DVD's, shoot one arrow cut to another shot, one arrow etc, I would like to see not just one shot accuracy but some demonstration of repeatable consistency from the shooters, not that I think they cannot do it, just would be nice to see.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    74
    Thanks everyone,

    I used to shoot FITA with a compound and I'm interested in starting again. I like traditional archery, yet for some reason I don't see myself shooting a target recurve bow, but rather a traditional one, or one of those ILP hunting style ones with the short rizer, or a wooden take down, or wooden one piece.

    I probably wont shoot for competition in the next few 2 years, but rather recreationally shoot at targets and I want to try some 3d shooting too. I'm just worried that I'll pick a bow I hate, I'm not sure which I should be starting with. I'm serious about this sport, I'm not going to buy a bow and let it "rust".

    I was asking about the horse bows because I liked the look of the Kaya kahn with it's shelf. It's attractive too. But I fear that it's kind off a impulse buy and that it wont be the bow to shoot at targets with a decent grouping at various distances and do some 3d with. I'm no zen master nor do I want to be king of the kahn for instance. Jimmy Blackmon appears to be magic with his bows, he probably floats on air too. Amazing the way he can actually hit the targets that well or isnt it such a great feat using a traditional bow ?

    I guess all I'm saying is this, firstly because where I live there isn´t a dealer where I can try all or any of the models I´m interested in... so I´m completely dependant on your experience, and secondly forgive me if it sounds vain.. I want to start with a bow which looks good enough to inspire, that with practice one can shoot quite well enough to hit at least gold of a target with at 50m or wishfully at 70m have a decent enough grouping which fits inside the red circumference.


    @viper1 I just found your post on selecting a bow. my next read

    @steve morely - check this guy, I thought it was pretty wicked too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf-oaa4OHT8

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC, Canada and Whidbey Island, WA
    Posts
    5,196
    Keeping the arrows inside the red on the 122cm target at 70m is hard enough with a full FITA rig. It's not something most people can do regularly with even the best target barebow. You may have to reset your expectations a little.

    -Grant
    Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by grantmac View Post
    Keeping the arrows inside the red on the 122cm target at 70m is hard enough with a full FITA rig. It's not something most people can do regularly with even the best target barebow. You may have to reset your expectations a little.

    -Grant
    I'm just trying to say it would be great to hit the target with a good grouping with training and experience. If I remember correctly this was not so hard with a compound bow (keeping arrows in gold and red), of course with a bare bow recurve I realise now that I have no idea about recurves, it is something completely different and I should reset my expectations, perhaps to none for now.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Missouri, USA
    Posts
    20
    Horsebows, or Asiatic recurves are known for long range shooting. If it's distance shooting you want to experience, there is nothing better within a reasonable budget than the Kaya KTB or Kaya Windfighter. Oh and pick up a thumb ring

  11. #11
    I alternate, shooting my Kaya KTB left-handed w/a a thumb ring and my Bear Custom Kodiak T/D right-handed.

    I'm more accurate in general w/ the Bear, but feel more accomplishment when I do well w/ the Kaya:

    wfa-12yd-group-612.jpg

    (That's @ 12 yards, don't have a large enough yard for farther)
    --
    Bear Custom Kodiak T/D (green stripe) B-handle w/ #1 limbs (50#). Carbon Express Heritage 150 arrows w/ 100gr. bullet points, Carbon Express Nativ broadheads, G5 Small Game heads.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC, Canada and Whidbey Island, WA
    Posts
    5,196
    Quote Originally Posted by Mellowfellow View Post
    I'm just trying to say it would be great to hit the target with a good grouping with training and experience. If I remember correctly this was not so hard with a compound bow (keeping arrows in gold and red), of course with a bare bow recurve I realise now that I have no idea about recurves, it is something completely different and I should reset my expectations, perhaps to none for now.
    The very best barebow shooters in the world can just accomplish what you are wanting to do with very target-specific bows. Shooting a more traditional bow it would be very good shooting to keep them inside the red on the 122cm target at 50m.
    Nobody is doing it with a horsebow.

    -Grant
    Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    LI. NY
    Posts
    15,355
    Mellow -

    Grant pretty much covered it right there.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    74
    Thanks Guys, I've found a club nearby. They can give me a introductory lesson with a recurve bow. I'll get back to you.. it's very exciting!

    I hear you @grantmac, I hope I wasn't insulting, If anything just naive.. I think just hitting the target at 50m with a 'curved stick' is pretty awesome.

    Go well

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    BC, Canada and Whidbey Island, WA
    Posts
    5,196
    Quote Originally Posted by Mellowfellow View Post
    Thanks Guys, I've found a club nearby. They can give me a introductory lesson with a recurve bow. I'll get back to you.. it's very exciting!

    I hear you @grantmac, I hope I wasn't insulting, If anything just naive.. I think just hitting the target at 50m with a 'curved stick' is pretty awesome.

    Go well
    Not at all, I just didn't want you to invest a tonne of time and not achieve the accuracy that you would like.

    -Grant
    Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,143
    Mellow, learn to shoot a good recurve that fits you and learn good form. When you have that mastered to a good level, other more difficult style bows, like a horse bow, are then more fun and accurate to shoot.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mellerstain, Scotland
    Posts
    1,322
    If the OP doesn't mind, Why do people think that they cant be as accurate with a horse bow, when you read so many times its the indian and not the bow that's the accurate part of the equation.
    (don't get me wrong. the advice is sound IMHO so far. just a discussion starter)
    Join our Facebook page "Border Archery"

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    LI. NY
    Posts
    15,355
    Sid -

    You know the answer.

    As long as a bow doesn't change shooting characteristics during a shooting session, ANY bow will stack identical arrows all day long at any distance, IF shot from a shooting machine. The problem arises when the shooting machine is human. Ease of consistency in grip position and placement, effects of slight variation in draw length or other glitches, ease of release (finger pinch) all factor in. It's not the bow itself, it's the bow to shooter interface.

    There's a world of difference between comparing one of your bows to something from WW. Samick or even Hoyt and comparing those to a Hill style LB or horse bow.

    The other reason is some of us have actually see people try to shoot them. Except for a few circus acts on the Internet, most times the results aren't pretty.
    The other issue, and it's a subtle one, is that most of the horse bows I've shot, have incredibly smooth (read easy) draws for their actual weight. While that sounds like a good thing, a less experienced shooter can think the bow is lighter than it is, and loose control due to over bowing after just a few shots.

    Viper1 out.



    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mellerstain, Scotland
    Posts
    1,322
    Quote Originally Posted by Viper1 View Post
    Sid -

    You know the answer.

    As long as a bow doesn't change shooting characteristics during a shooting session, ANY bow will stack identical arrows all day long at any distance, IF shot from a shooting machine. The problem arises when the shooting machine is human. Ease of consistency in grip position and placement, effects of slight variation in draw length or other glitches, ease of release (finger pinch) all factor in. It's not the bow itself, it's the bow to shooter interface.

    There's a world of difference between comparing one of your bows to something from WW. Samick or even Hoyt and comparing those to a Hill style LB or horse bow.

    The other reason is some of us have actually see people try to shoot them. Except for a few circus acts on the Internet, most times the results aren't pretty.
    The other issue, and it's a subtle one, is that most of the horse bows I've shot, have incredibly smooth (read easy) draws for their actual weight. While that sounds like a good thing, a less experienced shooter can think the bow is lighter than it is, and loose control due to over bowing after just a few shots.

    Viper1 out.



    Viper1 out.
    My reason for being on the internet is to try and help enhance the idea of what makes a bow stable. Step over the Must follow what ever gold medal has, and find a bow that suits themselves. If we can establish a much better remit as to what classes a bow as stable, then people can start to select bows with more of that feature. This should eveolve equipment through education rather than the spoon fed glass limbs with a wee bit'o-carbon to ease the dollars out your pocket. the R&D in the last 15 years on limb design has not been that great has it?

    our ideas are in our bows. but to be honest, we think people are right in saying horse bows are unstable. Heavy Sticks on the ends of the limbs, needing lots of preload to help with speed, killing vertical stability, followed by thin limb designs that do nothing for torsional stability followed by a reflexed handle.
    add those three together and you have a wrestle with form on your hands.
    the next few treats that they have don't help accuracy either, but are needed for their intended use, short and light mass.
    Join our Facebook page "Border Archery"

  20. #20
    Also none of the risers are cut to center means that tiny differences in arrow spine make a big difference in arrow flight... and shooting off the knuckle means an imprecise shelf location each time you grip the bow (or get tired)

    But horsebows are just more dang fun to shoot for some reason, shooting off the "far" side of the riser with a thumb grip is great, not sure why its much better. You don't really see people taking the time to sight down the string and arrow or gapping etc... its more like grip it and rip it, and if you know your bow really well you can still shoot accurately.
    The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a bow, is a good guy with a bow

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    74
    I believe that the shooter's raw talent provides the base yes, but I also do not write off the role equipment can play to level the field or further enhance the shooters capabilities. One of the questions I had was about which bow would shoot better, and I really believe that in some circumstance that it would probably be possible for one to out perform the other, even if slightly in various fields.. be they comfort, ease of shooting, accuracy, distance etc. I also posted because I have no knowledge of recurve bows, nor a horse bow and I'm confused and intrigued by both. From a aesthetical standpoint I like shorter bows, they just look better. That plays some physiological role, which makes me believe that I will have more fun shooting it, and shoot better. Hogwash but I believe that in a high probability of cases 'better looking' contributes to 'better quality' and 'better performing' in the mind. Recurves there are that look great fortunately so that's not the end-all criteria for me. For example the tradtech ILF bows look wicked but are more expensive than the Kahn bow.

    I don't have access to a bow store where one can try out various bow nor shoot various bow's. If I purchase a bow it's a done deal, no turning back since I'll likely order it online. Finding support from experienced shooter or salesperson Jim is also not there, thus all the questions in the forum too I suspect.

    Anycase I want to have fun with the bow, yet not be limited by it's potential to shoot great as my skills improves. I probably sound like I think I have the mind of a jedi, but I do. No just kidding. I want to work hard and improve best I can. I'm heading over to the local club saturday where I can try my hand at a recurve bow.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Portland area
    Posts
    301
    Good shooting Steve, that is hard to do with a horse bow. I had a Saluki Turk for a while and it (or I) was very "twitchy" and hard (for me) to shoot well... however the bow itself was a real treat, one of the coolest bows I have owned through my journey in archery. Lukas was a very cool dude to work with and did some very special things with the bow.

    Have a great day,
    Kasey

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    LI. NY
    Posts
    15,355
    mellow -

    You can set up a synthetic scenario where any bow, weapon or anything else will out perform any other.

    I generally give the following recommendations to new shooters:
    Get a bow that is:
    1. Lighter in draw weight than you think you can handle
    2. Longer in length that you think appropriate and
    3. Less expensive than you can afford (within reason of course)

    To that, I really have to add, getting a bow that is both generic enough and with a proven design - almost regardless of what your long term goals are.
    That's usually the easiest way to begin the process.
    As your form, strength and understanding develop, you'll be better equipped to make decisions regrading the next step.
    And there will be a next step.

    Viper1 out.
    “Simple and innocent, however, as it (the bow) appears, and capable as it is of being a trusty friend and ally, a bow is at the same time a watchful enemy, ready to take advantage of the smallest slight.”

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Mellerstain, Scotland
    Posts
    1,322
    Target Shooting will show you each aspect of archery, from tuning the bow, to tuning the arrow to the bow, and tuning yourself to the bow...

    Its very systematic in that sense.

    a lot of other forms are less systematic in the ways you learn, so depends on your nature. Plenty of people have taught themselves trad bow shooting from books.

    Im a Firm believer in multi discipline learning. Learning road biking, helps with mountain biking, and even Trampolinging helps with freestyle Kayaking. I think a Trad bow archer can learn a lot from Target shooting, and vice versa.
    That said, I think you can learn a lot from what Target bows look like. and applie that to your short bow and you will be onto a good/better thing.
    if the handle dips into the bow, then its not so easy to shoot well, if the limbs are easy to twist, and the string wobbles up and down easily, again it will be harder to shoot.
    how smooth the bow is to pull again is quite simple to test, and how heavy/hard is the bow to spin round its centre (you can feel this iby holding the grip and rotating the bow back and forth, Short bows only for practicality purposes)) will show you how heavy the limbs are. This should take care of a lot of things about a bow. that will help show you speed, Smoothness, and stability for any one given design.

    That's our take on it...
    Join our Facebook page "Border Archery"

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,143
    Sid, having been down both paths, I hear what you are saying. But, I can't think of one thing my home-grown, self-taught, methods gained me in target shooting from the line; although, I can say that even if I'm just shooting from the hip at 10-15 yards for fun, having the dynamics and mechanics of the bow learned in the minutia of target shooting makes me way more accurate than I would be otherwise. I still hold that if you learn pure target form on a bow that meets Tony's above criteria, you will have mastered way more bow styles and shooting styles than the ones you learned on. There really seems to be no vice versa to this.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •