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Thread: Who thinks IBO should have a Known yardage class for men and women? And why?

  1. #51
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    Give people a choice.



    I think Known is a good thing to bring in more shooters. Just don't push it on the people who don't want to shoot it, like the ASA has.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark1976 View Post
    A better question would be why not? I can't wrap my head around not having a known class and why anyone would be against it? If it brings more participation and allows people who might not do it without a known class, why would you say no, no, no?!? It makes no sense! It literally doesn't hurt anyone to allow some the use of a rangefinder that either struggle with yardage for whatever reason or don't have the time or finances it takes to learn, but would love to be able to compete! From am orginizations stand point, it brings in more revenue, and that's just good business!
    i think that the main issue (atleast one) is that it would mean that every qualifier would need to have a range set up for known. that being said, clubs around here have a hard enough time keeping one range in good shape, and in the northeast some clubs simply dont have the space.

    to have known and unknown on the same range would be disaster.

    also adding to the already 30 or so classes is not trivial. but since we are on the topic, why not have known cub class thru open known classes....does not seem fair to make the kids learn to judge if they are not going to need the skill as an adult. so 30 known classes added to make it nice for everyone.....
    Handsome Dave Castle
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by silhouette13 View Post

    to have known and unknown on the same range would be disaster.

    ..
    In the ASA, the known 50 shoots the same range as the open Pro's at the same time and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
    A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstarnes View Post
    In the ASA, the known 50 shoots the same range as the open Pro's at the same time and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
    We have known and unkown at my range. Doesn't seem to be a problem. The only problem we have is the known class is getting bigger all the time. Bigge than the Open Money class by twice as much.
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  5. #55
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    to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.


    Quote Originally Posted by sagecreek View Post
    We have known and unkown at my range. Doesn't seem to be a problem. The only problem we have is the known class is getting bigger all the time. Bigge than the Open Money class by twice as much.
    Handsome Dave Castle
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by silhouette13 View Post
    to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.
    There is no way of controlling it for sure. It's based on the honor systema and self-policing. We run lanes out one side of the trail and then shoot back the other side. There is usually other groups standing around everywhere keeping an eye open to see what's going on. It works for us with no complaints or bickering of cheating.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by silhouette13 View Post
    to be clear i am not opposed to Known. how do you assure the known group in front is not sharing the news with the unknown behind? no rangefinders are allowed on the course for unknown....how does one keep them away from other groups? not being a jerk, i am really curious. i know a bunch of folks up here who would welcome known.
    If people want to cheat they will. Range finders themselves can in no way cause people to cheat. People that cheat really do not benefit much from a range finder. By far and away the best way for someone to cheat is to simply write down whatever score they want. Another popular way to cheat is for everyone in the group to talk "yardage" prior to shooting and then again after each shot.

    Range finders do not increase the likely hood of folks cheating. The folks that insist range finders on the course increase the incidences of cheating are fundamentally against known distance 3D. Being against known distance 3D clouds their reasoning behind thinking range finders increase cheating. When an archer yanks a shot 10" left or right it isn't because of a yardage estimating error and when he writes an 8 down instead of a 5 it isn't because he is or is not using a range finder.

    Folks that lie (cheat) are going to do it regardless of whether a rangefinder is in the group ahead of them. We all know folks that were hard core cheater (liars) right up until they decided to quit for some really "good" reason. The announced reason is never because they have realized either everyone knows they are cheating OR that folks are watching them so closely they can no longer cheat and post high scores.

    I've known a couple hard core cheaters and I couldn't have cared less........ Well one of them bugged me some years ago because he kept asking me why I no longer shot in the money Hunter class against him. In fact everyone stopped shooting that class and I expect he thinks it was because he was so much better than the rest of us!
    "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
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  8. #58
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    in no way saying a range finder causes cheating...just that IBO rules are they are not allowed on the range period, so if the range was used by K classes and open, then that would mean(to me) that groups cannot even be near each other to avoid incident.

    i am also well aware that a cheater will find a way t o cheat.

    in fairness i am in IBO only land with WQ clubs having one course and mulitiple stakes, so with out ever shooting an ASA i really cant see it in my minds eye.

    you guys are telling me that Levi could be 1 target a head of Keith Trail shooting the same course same time but one known and one unknown? and the distances are published then verified with a range finder? of you must have a range finder to shoot it?

    honestly, not trying to argue either way, just want to understand the logistics.
    Handsome Dave Castle
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  9. #59
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    also my wondering is more of the " someone claims someone else is cheating", which seems almost as prevalent as cheating. if some one says they saw someone using the finder....weather or not they did" if a finder is near them how could one really officiate?
    Handsome Dave Castle
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  10. #60
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    In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagecreek View Post
    In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.
    I shot London Ky in the K50 class and we shot the same range at the same time as the open Pro class. At the Classic I shot K50 and we shot the same range at the same time as semi Pro.
    A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by silhouette13 View Post
    in no way saying a range finder causes cheating...just that IBO rules are they are not allowed on the range period, so if the range was used by K classes and open, then that would mean(to me) that groups cannot even be near each other to avoid incident.

    i am also well aware that a cheater will find a way t o cheat.

    in fairness i am in IBO only land with WQ clubs having one course and mulitiple stakes, so with out ever shooting an ASA i really cant see it in my minds eye.

    you guys are telling me that Levi could be 1 target a head of Keith Trail shooting the same course same time but one known and one unknown? and the distances are published then verified with a range finder? of you must have a range finder to shoot it?

    honestly, not trying to argue either way, just want to understand the logistics.
    A simple tweak of the rule fixes the issue. If the IBO is even half way concerned about cheating they'd bust up groups AND half a range official on the course such that he can be called to ANY target. As it is arrow calling is much "looser" at IBO tournaments than ASA. At least is or was in IBO AHC than ASA Hunter, K45 and K50.

    Yes, Levi, Keith, Kent, Scott and Chance were all on the same courses while some of us had rangefinders and some did not........ I'm fairly certain that is the very first time my name has been in the same sentence as the supa' stas'!

    Quote Originally Posted by sagecreek View Post
    In ASA national events, there is not any know class shooters on the same range as unknown shooters.
    See below....

    Quote Originally Posted by sstarnes View Post
    I shot London Ky in the K50 class and we shot the same range at the same time as the open Pro class. At the Classic I shot K50 and we shot the same range at the same time as semi Pro.
    "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
    Know when to walk away and know when to run.
    You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table."
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    Stan ShootOff and JustX releases for hunting, foam and paper!

  13. #63
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    thanks for the insights, i have to say that the IBO in new england is stepping up by having ibo officials walking the range through out the event.

    whereas ASA seems to kind of walk out and back and IBO is a trail type shoot how would one get word that an issue was in need of immediate ruling for an average club that has some walk through s?

    BTW i am an IBO rep for NH, i enforce rules as written or ruled on by the leadership, that being said i would support K classes in IBO, i do feel it would bring loads of spots shooters and field guys into the fray in this area. i actually would shoot it myself.
    Handsome Dave Castle
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  14. #64
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    If they did, it would have to be a separate range completely (or someone who shot on Friday could give the yardages to an unmarked shooter that was shooting Saturday). Is there going to be enough attendance to justify an entirely separate 40 target range for marked yardage only (maybe they could work it a bit and get 2 or 3 different max yardage stakes for K50, K45, K30)?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermag1 View Post
    If they did, it would have to be a separate range completely (or someone who shot on Friday could give the yardages to an unmarked shooter that was shooting Saturday). Is there going to be enough attendance to justify an entirely separate 40 target range for marked yardage only (maybe they could work it a bit and get 2 or 3 different max yardage stakes for K50, K45, K30)?
    No you do not need an entirely separate course! How long would it take to move the stake a few steps in any direction? No longer than it takes to walk the distance of the course.

    Yes, the IBO would have to adapt to some extent to what customers want. Their inability or desire to do so is why the IBO basically has not improved or grown their game in 20+ years.
    "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
    Know when to walk away and know when to run.
    You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table."
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  16. #66
    Im for IBO known only if all shooters in the known classes can obtain a sponsorship from Massengil, Summers Eve , Kotex or Monistat 7 and proudly wear a shirt with theyre sponsors logo's

  17. #67
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    Ouch!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pincher View Post
    Im for IBO known only if all shooters in the known classes can obtain a sponsorship from Massengil, Summers Eve , Kotex or Monistat 7 and proudly wear a shirt with theyre sponsors logo's
    If they are willing pay all my expenses for every tournament I'd wear their logos proudly! I'm a grown acss man, I think I can handle it!
    "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
    Know when to walk away and know when to run.
    You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table."
    PSE Phenom, Supra ME, DNA SP
    Stan ShootOff and JustX releases for hunting, foam and paper!

  19. #69
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    I am one of the three who started the IBO. We started it using the same targets at all three shoots. We had long lines back then. Our club made 4 different ranges so the lines wernt as long as some. We had unmarked yards. Times change and almost everyone uses binoculars and rangefinders. So just leave it unknown but let everyone use rangefinders. Its 3D guys not NFAA spot shooting. It was to be like hunting not target shooting. When we started no one thought it would go over, almost no one thought 3D would go over.
    You have to listen to people and make changes. I stepped down from the IBO because I didnt have time had to much going on. Wish I would have hung around now. The guys I shot with had alot of ideas to keep people coming back.

  20. #70
    I personally don't shoot known yardage and enjoy the yardage judging aspect of the game. But that's me. That's not someone else. As someone who shoots often, I would not be offended in any way by someone else wanting to shoot known yardage for WHATEVER reason. It simply doesn't matter why. Who am I to say "no you can't play, go somewhere else." It's not like these will be shooters who will be competing against me. They will have their own class and compete against one another. I would love to see these tournaments grow. My biggest fear is not whether we let individuals who excel at spots come into the 3d game..... It's whether the 3d game will still be around in years to come. If it can help us grow, then let it happen. All it does is bring more people to the events we love to partake in.

    I don't shoot ASA. I would love to, but due to the travel and expense I just haven't worked it into my budget. If I can find a way I will eventually. So as a person who shoots IBO regularly, I don't see why this would be a bad thing. It doesn't ruin anything. Classes will still exsist that allow us to persue the game we prefer. I guess I just don't know why anyone would say your game doesn't count, so you can't play.

    More archers equals more strength and staying power for the organization.

  21. #71
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    in fairness though, if you are going to have a top class for known shooters.....it would be logical to have a known class for the cubs through yth 15-17. if you are focused on K for your end aspirations, why should you be forced to develop judging skills up to that point where it doesnt matter.

    simply not fair. i think the ASA should adopt this too since it seems to be what the IBO is judged on...the ASAness of the IBO.
    Handsome Dave Castle
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