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Thread: Time for a new rule?

  1. #1

    Time for a new rule?

    Do you think with all the big arrows in ASA blocking the 12 ring and glance outs happening. If people in the group agree should you get the higher score if damage is shown. I know you can opt for the upper 12 but is that fair either. Just a thought.



  2. #2
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    Yes kick outs suck, you got the yardage, you made the shot but get less than the best result. BUT, just because you damage someone's nock that was in the 12 ring does not mean your arrow would have landed in the 12 ring. I have seen arrows kicked nock high, low, right or left in the target. Not much more they can do besides the option to call uppers.

  3. #3
    Sometimes ya gotta lay up.....call the upper or take the 10
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    12 ring, 1 1/2" in diameter.... 1.500" / .422" (rounded up) = 3.555 arrow widths straight across. And then up and down and the corners.... Whether likeable or not there's enough room for more than 5 arrows.....
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  5. #5
    How is the upper "not fair" ?

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    I doubt that they will regulate the size of the arrow due to the money involved with the arrow manufactures. If they would say that everyone must shoot an arrow no bigger than a 23 series or something that is fine as long as everyone is playing the same game. I always looked at glance outs as being part of the game. It happens in field and fita also.

    To much judgement on the damaged arrow thing, you guys can't agree on how to score the arrows so lets not put damage into the equation.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tmorelli View Post
    How is the upper "not fair" ?
    Right. Its the same size as the lower....heck I like the upper...hardly anyone shoots for it...usually got a clean shot at it haha.

    Ive shot with some that call upper almost every shot.
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    This year down in Alabama I had 7 glance out cost me some good points .
    SHUT UP AND SHOOT YOUR BOW

  9. #9
    3D shooting is a game of knowing when and where to make your shots. You have to pick and choose. It's just part of the game. Every one of us that have shot it, have been kicked out by hitting another arrow. But on the flip side of the token, every one of us here has hit another arrow and then it actually knock us INTO the 12. So it does go both ways in that respect.

    It really all depends on the skill level of the shooters in your group. Some days you get with guys that absolutely wear those 12 rings out and stay in them all day. If you are use to shooting in a smaller group or shooting with people that don't hit so many 12s, then you are going to struggle a little bit if you are scared to shoot at a 12 with an arrow or two in it when you get with a group of good shooters that can hit a bunch of 12s. But...you aren't dead last on every target anyway. You will lead off on several targets and have first crack at either 12 ring. Its just the luck of the draw....some times you are up as the first or second shooter on the closest targets, and some times you are up last on them. My weekend in Cullman...most ever target I came up on to lead off on, was right at our max yardage and usually a black target too that I couldn't see any detail on from the stake. So my arrow ended up being a reference point to the other guys as to where the 12 was LOL. It's just how it happens. I lead off on only one close target out of 40 that we shot. And our group of 4 all shot a 12 on it.

  10. #10
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    what if you have a glance in should that then be called a 10 ? ya glance outs do suck but glance ins do count higher too ,so really its a horse either way.i have had ins and outs on the 12 ring too i remember the outs and just am happy with the ins.

  11. #11
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    I think it is just part of the game we are playing, this weekend I had some targets where I was first on a easy target and other easy targets I was last. Depending on how my group had filled up the 12 rings I had to play the game and make good decisions. To me the current asa game is a really challenging game to play and be competitive and I absolutely love it.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jimb View Post
    I doubt that they will regulate the size of the arrow due to the money involved with the arrow manufactures. If they would say that everyone must shoot an arrow no bigger than a 23 series or something that is fine as long as everyone is playing the same game. I always looked at glance outs as being part of the game. It happens in field and fita also.

    To much judgement on the damaged arrow thing, you guys can't agree on how to score the arrows so lets not put damage into the equation.
    To go with a max diameter of 23 series wouldn't be that tough of a task. However, it can't be done on a whim and go into effect "overnight". IF the new diameter was put into effect on a "delayed basis" to give the arrow manufacturers time to sell out their inventories, and the shooters to use up their inventories over the course of 2-4 YEARS, then it would work out just fine.
    For example: To rule that effective January 1, 2015 the new arrow size max is 23 series and anything larger is illegal for competition would NOT work!
    To rule that effective January 1, 2017 or January 1, 2018 would give manufacturers and suppliers time to sell out inventory, and shooters time to use up what they have and a few years subsequent.

    Since the USA is the ONLY country on the planet that uses arrow diameters over the WFA (formerly FITA) shaft size restriction...the arrow manufacturers would NOT be "hurt" substantially by the limitation! They would sell just as many arrows after the change, if not more. Also, I know for a fact that with regard to the carbon arrows, they can manufacture a carbon shaft that is WFA (formerly FITA) LEGAL with a range of spines that would "fit" nearly all bows.
    They simply need the "nudge" to get that job done, since right now, they have no need to do so.

    Personally, I'm in favor of making the shaft diameter the same through all venues of archery and have that shaft diameter restriction as a "world standard." Outdoors, indoors, NFAA, ASA, IBO, WAF, USA Archery...the works. Make the largest diameter arrow that is legal for competition a 2315, period.

    field14
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete53 View Post
    what if you have a glance in should that then be called a 10 ? ya glance outs do suck but glance ins do count higher too ,so really its a horse either way.i have had ins and outs on the 12 ring too i remember the outs and just am happy with the ins.
    I guy in our group this weekend at the Classic had his arrow glance off of a pine tree (bark flying) and hit the target in the 10 ring. He lost one vane! He scored a 10.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by math1963 View Post
    I guy in our group this weekend at the Classic had his arrow glance off of a pine tree (bark flying) and hit the target in the 10 ring. He lost one vane! He scored a 10.
    Had that been an NFAA, IFAA, USA Archery event...that arrow glancing off a tree and into the target would have scored....a ZERO! Of course, there are rules concerning target set up that require a full and unimpeding view of the entire target face AND an fully cleared path to the target that "even the lightest bows" can make it to the target without interference, too. Glance ins off the ground? Score ZERO!
    field14 (Tom D.)
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    Also, I know for a fact that with regard to the carbon arrows, they can manufacture a carbon shaft that is WFA (formerly FITA) LEGAL with a range of spines that would "fit" nearly all bows.
    They simply need the "nudge" to get that job done, since right now, they have no need to do so.

    Personally, I'm in favor of making the shaft diameter the same through all venues of archery and have that shaft diameter restriction as a "world standard." Outdoors, indoors, NFAA, ASA, IBO, WAF, USA Archery...the works. Make the largest diameter arrow that is legal for competition a 2315, period.

    field14

    Lost me, Tom. Carbon Express, Gold Tip, Muddy Outdoors, Victory and others make 350 spine arrows in FITA diameter or a bit under and have for several years.

    It's been discussed before, FITA legal diameter arrows. Ain't happening and I've shot FITA legal diameter arrows since whenever Carbon Express came out with the CXLs. Don't use the big logs, but I won't vote them out either....

    Era 2007, what happened when the "across the pond" countries tried to ban the Nano? A uproar. Who was with the uproaring ranks? Carbon Express. Think it, a uproar, won't happen here if they try to ban the "logs?"
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
    Lost me, Tom. Carbon Express, Gold Tip, Muddy Outdoors, Victory and others make 350 spine arrows in FITA diameter or a bit under and have for several years.

    It's been discussed before, FITA legal diameter arrows. Ain't happening and I've shot FITA legal diameter arrows since whenever Carbon Express came out with the CXLs. Don't use the big logs, but I won't vote them out either....

    Era 2007, what happened when the "across the pond" countries tried to ban the Nano? A uproar. Who was with the uproaring ranks? Carbon Express. Think it, a uproar, won't happen here if they try to ban the "logs?"
    I know for a fact that carbon arrows can be made in varying spines at a given diameter...if the market would call for it. That is to say, they could make a shaft spine out for a person wanting to shoot a 23 diameter arrow that only has 35# peak weight. They can also make the shaft spine out at the same OD for a person shooting 40, 45, 50, 52, or whatever peak weight, too. Got that information from a "horse's mouth" (but NOT from Easton, haha) when the first fat shaft controversy was "hot" a few years back.
    Problem is that this country thinks they "rule" the world of archery...but from a sales standpoint of target type equipment, the USA is a "drop in the bucket" (on a WORLD WIDE SCALE, that is).
    Funny that many of our top shooters shoot the SAME SCORES indoors on the Vegas type face...with small shafts, with 23 diameter "FITA LEGAL" shafts, or with logs. The only reason they'll stay with fat logs is so as not to give away too much to the competition...so if the "competition" was restricted to 23 max diameter, then everyone does the same...WORLD WIDE.
    If everyone world-wide was restricted to a max of 23 diameter...the SALES wouldn't change one iota...using "manufacturer's lost sales" is a lame excuse! Gotsta have arrows...and obviously if everyone was restricted to the same max...then everyone would buy THOSE arrows.

    Only in America......
    Just let it float and SHOOT THE SHOT! Author of: "ProActive Archery", "The Puzzled Archer", "The Puzzled Cyclist".
    -field14 (Tom D.)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by math1963 View Post
    I guy in our group this weekend at the Classic had his arrow glance off of a pine tree (bark flying) and hit the target in the 10 ring. He lost one vane! He scored a 10.
    Mine hit the eight!
    Can you point me toward the target, please?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    Had that been an NFAA, IFAA, USA Archery event...that arrow glancing off a tree and into the target would have scored....a ZERO! Of course, there are rules concerning target set up that require a full and unimpeding view of the entire target face AND an fully cleared path to the target that "even the lightest bows" can make it to the target without interference, too. Glance ins off the ground? Score ZERO!
    field14 (Tom D.)
    Like we used to say in flat track racin'...we don't care how the hell they go it in California.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    I know for a fact that carbon arrows can be made in varying spines at a given diameter...if the market would call for it. That is to say, they could make a shaft spine out for a person wanting to shoot a 23 diameter arrow that only has 35# peak weight. They can also make the shaft spine out at the same OD for a person shooting 40, 45, 50, 52, or whatever peak weight, too. Got that information from a "horse's mouth" (but NOT from Easton, haha) when the first fat shaft controversy was "hot" a few years back.

    You missed my point. Fat shafts are in different spine grades and have been for years. You have a 35 pound they've got a arrow that will work. I have CXLs of .510 spine, .410 and .332. Year of make makes some difference. Like the 2010/2011 series of CXL 150s given .504, 250s of .417 and the CXL 350 now .361

    Problem is that this country thinks they "rule" the world of archery...but from a sales standpoint of target type equipment, the USA is a "drop in the bucket" (on a WORLD WIDE SCALE, that is).

    Why is that thought? It's because the rest of the world doesn't give a damn about the USA. And a bit off course comparing the USA to the rest of the world. How is England compared to the USA? How is Germany or Italy compared to the USA? Countries too small? Try Canada, it's pretty good size, old as the USA, how does it compare? Whoops! I forgot. World traveling archery coach; "Sonny, compounds won't make it (Olympics) until the European stage catches up with the United States."
    . Sales? Europeans, Africa, Australia, quoted so many times here on AT and other archery sites; limited access/archery resources.


    Funny that many of our top shooters shoot the SAME SCORES indoors on the Vegas type face...with small shafts, with 23 diameter "FITA LEGAL" shafts, or with logs. The only reason they'll stay with fat logs is so as not to give away too much to the competition...so if the "competition" was restricted to 23 max diameter, then everyone does the same...WORLD WIDE.
    If everyone world-wide was restricted to a max of 23 diameter...the SALES wouldn't change one iota...using "manufacturer's lost sales" is a lame excuse! Gotsta have arrows...and obviously if everyone was restricted to the same max...then everyone would buy THOSE arrows.

    Such arrow size differences have been in existence for how long and now it's funny because it fits your "cause." Old David Barnsdale won Vegas with the thinner shafts. Hey, he's one damned good shot and I'm glad that he won.

    Only in America......
    What next, Tom? Restrict draw weight like FITA has? Color of bow or arrows or vanes? If by your thinking it'll come down to X bow, X arrow, X everything. Maybe even have to own and drive a Bentley to qualify to shoot. Whoops. I probably wouldn't be allowed to shoot as I am a cigarette smoker. Concerning archery, I got a lecture on smoking over seas. Even got a wake up call right here in Illinois. FITA Indoor Championship; "No Smoking Allowed On Clubs Grounds." Not even in your car in the parking. You must leave the club grounds if you wish to smoke. They lost me and 4 other shooters.
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  20. #20
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    I would like to see the change to smaller diameter arrows just to minimize the damage on those targets!!
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamlin View Post
    I would like to see the change to smaller diameter arrows just to minimize the damage on those targets!!
    Have seen what Nanos can do to brand new 3D targets? Right through to the offset side. Want to do away with 27/64" arrows because of target damage you best include Nanos. No discrimination......
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
    Have seen what Nanos can do to brand new 3D targets? Right through to the offset side. Want to do away with 27/64" arrows because of target damage you best include Nanos. No discrimination......
    Yup, those knittin needles can do some damage quickly.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    Had that been an NFAA, IFAA, USA Archery event...that arrow glancing off a tree and into the target would have scored....a ZERO! Of course, there are rules concerning target set up that require a full and unimpeding view of the entire target face AND an fully cleared path to the target that "even the lightest bows" can make it to the target without interference, too. Glance ins off the ground? Score ZERO!
    field14 (Tom D.)
    The rule in NFAA is "score it where it lies" not a zero.

    From the rules:
    Any arrows deflected by a foreign object or miss fired will be scored where it lies.
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  24. #24
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    When the 12 ring is full of fat shafts my little VAPs usually slip right on in there. As far as target damage, my 120gr glue in tipped 340 total gr tooth picks flying out at 295fps at 56lbs penetrate just the same as the fattys in the same target. Why push , pull , touch or cut a line when you can just hit where your aiming ? A small diameter arrow is consistently more forgiving and accurate, per my own test results of course.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcheryNut2006 View Post
    The rule in NFAA is "score it where it lies" not a zero.

    From the rules:
    Any arrows deflected by a foreign object or miss fired will be scored where it lies.
    Not entirely sure here. I forget exactly, but believe the RIC ruled skid-ins a zero. Bounce outs and complete pass throughs rule, the arrow is to be shot over.

    Checked once. RIC rulings are many, a book full, and not published to my knowledge or I would have had the book.
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