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Thread: Time for a new rule?

  1. #51
    I think we should all shoot Lightspeeds...now there's a size I like. Let the non-english speaking world try that one on fer size.

    Like we used in the motorcycle bidness, we don't give a dam* how they do it in california.

    Can you point me toward the target, please?


  2. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Fulton County, Illinois
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    12,693
    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    There are STANDARDS world-wide for match competitions for almost everything else in the shooting sports...Shotguns, small and large bore rifles, pellet guns, et cetera.
    To tired to Search, Tom, and it's been some years since I competed with firearms. Enlighten me of the firearms world standards. All my target firearms were legal anywhere I went, Trap guns, rifles, pistols and revolvers. Winchester pistol and revolver events, we had to use Winchester ammo. Browning event, we had to use Browning rifles. Other than the Winchester events, no restrictions I know of for ammunition, shot size or type of bullet. Of course, factory type events you had to use deemed factory firearms. You wanted to compete in a class with your factory firearm against those with $5,000.00 Race guns all you had to do was sign your name.
    Pearson MarXman, Limb Driver, Muddy Virtue HT3s, Bohning vanes, Sure Loc Challenger,
    Super Ball Peep, Stanislawski MagMicro Trio, Onyx, Blackjack and TRU Ball ST360, 30" Cartel.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
    To tired to Search, Tom, and it's been some years since I competed with firearms. Enlighten me of the firearms world standards. All my target firearms were legal anywhere I went, Trap guns, rifles, pistols and revolvers. Winchester pistol and revolver events, we had to use Winchester ammo. Browning event, we had to use Browning rifles. Other than the Winchester events, no restrictions I know of for ammunition, shot size or type of bullet. Of course, factory type events you had to use deemed factory firearms. You wanted to compete in a class with your factory firearm against those with $5,000.00 Race guns all you had to do was sign your name.
    It has always been my understanding that "Hot" loads were NOT legal for trap, skeet, rifle, pistol, etc; especially in international competitions. Bullet types, ok. BUT I am almost sure that renegade loads are not permissible. Other restrictions do apply as well, although I'm not "up" on what exactly those restrictions are.
    I do know that in years past, the USA match teams for small bore were NOT using "American made" .22 cal rounds, but rather German made. I also read/heard somewhere that we were still getting beat on the ranges in international competition...only to find out later on that we were buying the Germans' "seconds" and not their best rounds. They were within international specs, but not quite as "perfect" as the match ammunition being used by...the Germans and other European nations...>Gamesmanship?
    Same thing was happening with aluminum arrows back in the day. The USA was selling bunches of Aluminum arrows to foreign nations...but not the super "prime stock", saving those rather for our own teams. I also recall a huge "shortage" in the mid 1970's of 1814, 1816, 1914, and 1916 X-7 arrows here in the USA because the Japanese, among others were buying those sizes up in quantities of GROSS (144 dozen at a time), creating a shortage here in the USA for about a year or so.
    I also found out recently from my cardiologist who competes Nationally in trap and skeet...that no longer can a shooter "bring their own" shells to any competitions. They MUST use the "standard rounds" provided AT the competition, period. Obviously, no "hot loads" or "renegade loads" EVERYONE uses the same brand, type, size of shot, and load of ammunition for each gauge of shotgun shell used in that competition, purchased at THAT competition, or they don't shoot the event. OR so I was told by my cardiologist...who should know since he is competes in these National events regularly.
    field14
    Just let it float and SHOOT THE SHOT! Author of: "ProActive Archery", "The Puzzled Archer", "The Puzzled Cyclist".
    -field14 (Tom D.)

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
    To tired to Search, Tom, and it's been some years since I competed with firearms. Enlighten me of the firearms world standards. All my target firearms were legal anywhere I went, Trap guns, rifles, pistols and revolvers. Winchester pistol and revolver events, we had to use Winchester ammo. Browning event, we had to use Browning rifles. Other than the Winchester events, no restrictions I know of for ammunition, shot size or type of bullet. Of course, factory type events you had to use deemed factory firearms. You wanted to compete in a class with your factory firearm against those with $5,000.00 Race guns all you had to do was sign your name.
    Sonny,
    this from the ATA rules, page 50: http://www.iowadnr.gov/portals/idnr/...amp;tabid=1355 Pretty TIGHTLY restricted, I would say.
    G. GUNS AND AMMUNITION
    Any shooter violating any of these Rules shall be disqualified from
    competition in accordance with these Rules. Any such violator shall
    be referred to the Executive Committee for possible further disciplinary
    action.
    A contestant cannot use:
    1.
    A gun with a chamber larger than 12 gauge. Guns of smaller gauges
    are permissible in registered and tournament shooting, but no
    competitive consideration shall be given in recognition of that fact
    for handicap and classification purposes. A contestant may not use
    a gun capable of chambering more than one gauge of shells at
    the same time. For example, chambering 12 gauge and 20 gauge
    shells in the same gun at the same time is prohibited.
    2.
    Loads that contain nickel or copper coated shot or tracer loads.
    However, the use of lead, steel, bismuth, or other composite non-
    toxic shot materials shall be allowed. Any gun club allowing shot
    materials described in this Rule, other than lead, shall be required
    to cover or shield all hard surfaces on trap fields which are known,
    or reasonably believed, to cause pellet ricochet with material which
    will prevent the shot pellets from rebounding and/or ricocheting.
    3.
    Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second)
    with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a
    maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum
    shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual
    shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual
    shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.
    In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot
    larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum
    and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%.
    Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria
    are the same as for lead shot shells.
    4. Any shell loaded with black powder.
    5.
    Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may
    challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be
    initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere
    with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt
    of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell
    or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination,
    management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA
    rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges,
    determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA
    Executive Committee for disciplinary action.

    The NRA small-bore rules can be found...and again, restrictions are prevalent; international rules are even tighter:
    http://competitions.nra.org/document...R/sbr-book.pdf

    International Rules are tighter: Page 8: http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf...rifle-book.pdf
    Just let it float and SHOOT THE SHOT! Author of: "ProActive Archery", "The Puzzled Archer", "The Puzzled Cyclist".
    -field14 (Tom D.)

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    8,654
    Is the Amateur Trapshooting Association an American organization? Like the NFAA?

    Other than that, it looks like the equipment restrictions are pretty similar to those of the various archery orgs...limit the maximums and don't care too much about the minimums.
    There's not much of a lesson to be learned the second time a calf kicks you in the balz.

  6. #56
    In response to the OP's original question, I don't favor a rule change. I would favor re-instating the 14 ring. Doing so might free up some room in the 12 ring. Just a thought...or a brain fart, I'm not sure which.
    Can you point me toward the target, please?

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Fulton County, Illinois
    Posts
    12,693
    Quote Originally Posted by field14 View Post
    Sonny,
    this from the ATA rules, page 50: http://www.iowadnr.gov/portals/idnr/...amp;tabid=1355 Pretty TIGHTLY restricted, I would say.
    G. GUNS AND AMMUNITION
    Any shooter violating any of these Rules shall be disqualified from
    competition in accordance with these Rules. Any such violator shall
    be referred to the Executive Committee for possible further disciplinary
    action.
    A contestant cannot use:
    1.
    A gun with a chamber larger than 12 gauge. Guns of smaller gauges
    are permissible in registered and tournament shooting, but no
    competitive consideration shall be given in recognition of that fact
    for handicap and classification purposes. A contestant may not use
    a gun capable of chambering more than one gauge of shells at
    the same time. For example, chambering 12 gauge and 20 gauge
    shells in the same gun at the same time is prohibited.
    2.
    Loads that contain nickel or copper coated shot or tracer loads.
    However, the use of lead, steel, bismuth, or other composite non-
    toxic shot materials shall be allowed. Any gun club allowing shot
    materials described in this Rule, other than lead, shall be required
    to cover or shield all hard surfaces on trap fields which are known,
    or reasonably believed, to cause pellet ricochet with material which
    will prevent the shot pellets from rebounding and/or ricocheting.
    3.
    Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second)
    with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a
    maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum
    shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual
    shotshell. These velocities are maximum and no individual
    shotshell shall exceed these limits for the designated shot charge.
    In addition, no load containing more than 1 1/8 ounces or any shot
    larger than Number 7 1/2 can be used. Shot charges are maximum
    and no charge may exceed the charge amount by more than 3%.
    Steel shot in Number 7 will be acceptable as long as velocity criteria
    are the same as for lead shot shells.
    4. Any shell loaded with black powder.
    5.
    Shoot Management, ATA official(s) or any contestant may
    challenge the load of any other contestant. Any challenge shall be
    initiated so as to not disrupt the harmony of the shoot or interfere
    with other contestants not involved with the challenge. On receipt
    of a challenge management or ATA official(s) shall obtain a shell
    or shells from the challenged party, and if after examination,
    management or ATA official(s) find the contestant violated the ATA
    rule, he/she may be disqualified. Any such initiated challenges,
    determined to be abusive in nature, will be referred to the ATA
    Executive Committee for disciplinary action.

    The NRA small-bore rules can be found...and again, restrictions are prevalent; international rules are even tighter:
    http://competitions.nra.org/document...R/sbr-book.pdf

    International Rules are tighter: Page 8: http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf...rifle-book.pdf
    Tom, virtually the same basic rules we had 15 years ago. Standard velocity for Trap was 1200 fps and we that experimented kept velocities for best pattern. Most who tried to get more velocity would "blow" holes in their pattern.
    As for "Hot Loads," I had one the fastest legal rounds going for the .30/06. 110 gr Sierra boattail chronographing 3,525 fps. and deemed legal for factory class rifles. I tailored this specific round for best accuracy, which came at 3,477 fps. Most impressive was the bullet didn't settle down until reaching 200 yards. I think I have the score sheet, Three 3 shot groups averaging .769" C/C at 200 yards. The heaviest, fastest hand load I used in 200 meter Handgun Silhouette events was a .45 Colt round. Shot in the much stronger Ruger Bisley, the 300 gr PSP Speer bullet chronographed 1,250 fps. I won High Overall at the Chillicothe Sportsman Club back in early 2000 something - I still have the Awards and score sheets. Lucked out with 1 more point to win. 4 people tied for 2nd....It was after Brian died that I quit pistol competing. He was the one that talked into competing and Range Master at Chillicothe.
    When Trap shooting I shot reloads for club events, extra hard 8s and Winchester Super Target (paper case - 8s) for Trophy Divisions. 4 time Club Doubles Champion - For this I was given one of the Collector S&W Belt Buckles (still in the display case it came in).
    Pearson MarXman, Limb Driver, Muddy Virtue HT3s, Bohning vanes, Sure Loc Challenger,
    Super Ball Peep, Stanislawski MagMicro Trio, Onyx, Blackjack and TRU Ball ST360, 30" Cartel.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Fulton County, Illinois
    Posts
    12,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolo View Post
    Is the Amateur Trapshooting Association an American organization? Like the NFAA?

    Other than that, it looks like the equipment restrictions are pretty similar to those of the various archery orgs...limit the maximums and don't care too much about the minimums.
    Yes, very much so American. In fact, once called the American Trap Shooting Association. And of all things, John Phillip Sousa (sp?), well noted composer and conductor, started the ATA around the early 1920s. The Grand is the jewel of the ATA, now located in Sparta, Illinois. Want to see something that will blow your mind, take in the Grand. Thousands shooting some 7,000,000 targets for just this event. I attended the Grand when located in Ohio. Alas, I had a broken right hand.
    Pearson MarXman, Limb Driver, Muddy Virtue HT3s, Bohning vanes, Sure Loc Challenger,
    Super Ball Peep, Stanislawski MagMicro Trio, Onyx, Blackjack and TRU Ball ST360, 30" Cartel.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    8,654
    Quote Originally Posted by SonnyThomas View Post
    Yes, very much so American. In fact, once called the American Trap Shooting Association. And of all things, John Phillip Sousa (sp?), well noted composer and conductor, started the ATA around the early 1920s. The Grand is the jewel of the ATA, now located in Sparta, Illinois. Want to see something that will blow your mind, take in the Grand. Thousands shooting some 7,000,000 targets for just this event. I attended the Grand when located in Ohio. Alas, I had a broken right hand.
    So...what's the relevance of comparing one American association to the other and then talking about international rules? A better question for Field...
    There's not much of a lesson to be learned the second time a calf kicks you in the balz.

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