I have asked the question to so many people in so many ways and all I get are evasive answers. I have a Wicked Ridge and a Horton. The WR says "must shoot Omni Nocks". I looked at the string holding mechanism and how the string sits in both. I see no difference. I shot half moons and Omni's out of both and saw no difference. I see why WR/TP want people to use Omni's because you can't load them wrong. I see no reason you can't shoot half moons in WR and no one has explained why it has to be done.
You will get the proper answer from Tenpoint. Just give them a call or log on to their website. I have called them and they are very helpful. Another good one would be David at Wyverns Creations, great, knowledgeable guy.
I don't know what WR model you have but my Invader hp was made before the Omni nock requirements went into effect. Mine came with flat nocked arrows and that is what I shoot. Just like my Excalibur Axiom they both shoot the same arrows and with the same nocks..... I would call Ten point if you have any questions. I did and they told me because mine was and older model that it was OK to keep shooting the flat nocks out of it... I don't believe that anything changed with the bows just that they started making some narrower limbed models and that they didn't like the flat nocks so the Omni was the compromise....
I did contact them. They did not unequivocally say "you cannot shoot moon nocks" but vaguely answered by saying that not using omni's would void the warranty. That is not an answer but a misdirection.
My Turbo XLT II is a "pre" Omni nock model as well....I shoot both Flat and Omni nocks...Maybe it could be that the string will not "shoot over" a Omni nock whereas it could with a Flat nock...In the grand scheme of most things it comes down to MONEY...
Clint,
We try and make the bows as bullet proof and user error proof as possible so the consumer has the best result. Trust me is would be way cheaper to use crappy material and import parts than to make them the way we do.
I don't doubt customer safety is a factor. But are you trying to tell me that during all the meetings discussing developing the Omni nock, no one mentioned reducing warranty claims as one of the positive reasons for developing them?
I completely agree that the Omni Nock is a great invention. I would have no problem using them since they have benefits over other designs. My problem is that I have a bunch of half moon lighted nocks I would like to use and if there is no real reason (just recommendation) not to use them, I want to make use of them. That's all!
I recently tried to use a 'winged' moon nock (Firenocks Q) in my Excalibur for the same reason: to use them up. Unfortunately, the down pressure in this particular bow raised the front of the arrow off the rail when so doing. The onmis are regarded foolproof because they prevent an arrow from being loaded incorrectly, as moon nocks can do. But the bumps on them can be misaligned to the string thereby affecting accuracy. Quality flat nocks (without rounded edges) and capture nocks prevent that from happening. I use the nock that's recommended by the manufacturer OR whichever works best in my bow.
Clint,
We don't really look at it as warranty and non warranty. We look at what is causing the bow to come back and how can we fix it or limit it. Strings and cables are a prime example. We could decrease the number of strands in a string, but they are not as durable. The AcuDraw cord is 800lb test, does it need to be that heavy, maybe not. Neither of those items are warranty items, but we make them heavier than we have to anyway.
In a more direct answer to your question, no, I don't ever recall talking about lowering the number of bows coming in on warranty claims. Again, we try to reduce the number of bows coming in regardless if it is warranty or not warranty, by finding the cause and fixing it.
I just talked to a guy the other day that had flats partially dry fire. When he put the Omni nock in the bow shot just fine.
Yes, there is a patent on that design. If we spend hours and hours of engineering time on a unique product, we patent it. We have 33 patents and about 20 more on the way. We are a business. We are in business to make money, but if we were trying to gouge people with Omni nocks, we wouldn't sell the nocks, we would just sell the finished arrow.
I talk to people all the time that swear by things that don't hold up to scientific scrutiny. I haven't personally experienced a partial dry fire from a flat nock, and I shoot a lot more than most (just as anecdotal as your person you just talked to, but since it's personal I give it a lot more credence heh!). I'm open to the idea that Omni nocks are better at preventing partial dry-fires, but unless I've been exceptionally lucky, the incidence of partial dry fire from a flat nock has to be extremely low. I've come to the conclusion that it's a problem that doesn't exist for a properly loaded Excal / Middleton. Maybe TenPoints have a different design that makes them more prone to it, I dunno. I've only shot 3 or 4 models of TP crossbows, and of those maybe at most a few hundred shots.
Yes, there is a patent on that design. If we spend hours and hours of engineering time on a unique product, we patent it. We have 33 patents and about 20 more on the way. We are a business. We are in business to make money, but if we were trying to gouge people with Omni nocks, we wouldn't sell the nocks, we would just sell the finished arrow.
Sure, I know you're a business and I understand needing to make a profit. In this particular case though I still maintain that it's a bad decision for consumers. It locks people in to specific arrows, and locks all your customers into one single nock design, which is controlled solely by TP. Your customers last season that wanted to shoot lighted nocks either did so against TP's policy, or went without. Your customers that want to shoot an arrow with a non-standard wall thickness or whatever have to do the same thing. It doesn't matter much though; judging by people's acceptance of the policy (or willingness to ignore it?) TP's decision to make Omnis mandatory is probably a net profit for the company. I'll continue to steer my friends away from a TP purchase though unless the policy changes in the future... in contrast I used to recommend TP to people that wanted a compound.
I think the main reason omnis are better on ten point bows is because they're so narrow. Excals are wide so the string angle isn't an issue with flats.
Of course Ten Point is a business, and a business is in business to make money. No need to beat around the bush about it.
The reason they patent the omni, therefore not allowing others to produce/sell them......is to protect their investment. TONS of money in R&D.
If it was really all about keeping people safe.....there would be no need for the patent.
I think the main reason omnis are better on ten point bows is because they're so narrow. Excals are wide so the string angle isn't an issue with flats.
That's an interesting observation, and probably has some merit for all the current models but the GT Flex. Still though, as far as I know TP requires Omni nocks for the Flex.
ekkie,
You will see Omnis from different arrow companies shortly. We make a wide variety nock sizes so they fit nearly any 22/64 diameter arrow out there.
Wyvern and South Shore both use our nocks in other shafts.
It's a pretty simple solution really. Either pony up a whole whopping $4 freaking dollars to get some Omni nocks or don't and shoot whatever the hell you want... or if you aren't happy about that then go a different route than tenpoint... you guys crack me up
Thanks for your constructive input. If you read through the thread instead of shooting your mouth off, you will see that it's not about $4 in nocks. It's about all the half moon lighted nocks that TP says I can't use.
Shoot them then already... who effin cares??? You waiting for Tenpoint to change their warranty for you or something? haha Good luck buddy. Maybe we can take up a collection for you to buy some lighted Omni nocks.
I think they work just fine. With the narrow axle to axle and extreme string angle on my SS I want that extra little bit of assurance that the string will be where it should be on launch. As some have said "a cocked crossbow is like a bear trap". A bit of extra caution is good...
YMMV as it is your bow, your arrows and your body...
I know that. You sound like the Gestapo when you say it. That still does not answer the question as to whether a properly loaded half moon nock can be successfully shot out of them. No one wants to answer that question. It is being avoided like the Ebola virus.
"...Its not like they changed it after you bought it..."
Actually, they did! ALL Tenpoint crossbows up to 2014 were recommended to use Flat nocks, and some 2014 models were shipped with Flat nocked arrows/bolts even though the crossbow was clearly marked with "Use Omni Nocks Only". And, even my 2009 Carbon Phantom which has successfully used Flat nocks up until now is required to use Omni nocks.
I personally choose to use my lit Firenock Flat nocks instead of complying with TenPoint's mandate.
If all else were equal and of similar design workmanship and materials, would a properly loaded moon nock have an increased failure rate over and Omni nock. If so why?
Well I have used the Parker Capture nocks with no issues, the omnis with no issues, other than fit and alignment and now use the Firenock "J" for nearly a year now with no issues on my TP Vapor, its not rocket science here folks
If you would break down and buy a used Excal you will have a warranty.
and
You know you want one. :wink:
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