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Thread: Labor Day - Brought To You By Your Union Brothers & Sisters

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    They are well educated in the business model. When you try to call a bluff, you better make sure the other party is bluffing. Remember the CEOs flying on corporate jets to their bailout hearings? Didn't think so.
    Thinking more along the lines of the hostess debacle.

    Praesto et Persto


  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Does a company make successful workers? Or do the workers make a successful company?
    Or do unions force companies to keep workers like these?ImageUploadedByTapatalk1409322901.523085.jpg. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...cP_rIqke6jwxjQ
    Praesto et Persto

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    in general, I've had good experiences with Home Depot employees. Lowes is another story.
    That's been my experience here. Over the last 10 to 15 years HD has gotten better and Lowe's has gone downhill. Now if HD would only use higher wattage bulbs they'd be perfect.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    If you worked for a company whose executive took corporate jets to bailout hearings you would have to drink just to get over it, show some compassion!!!!!

    CG
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    "One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    Something about one liner quips that add nothing to the discussion:


    It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience with an employer. I no more believe that your experience is any more representative of small business owners or corporate types than I believe that most union workers are represented by the shining examples that often get posted in the union bashing threads. How about you?

    I work in a very seasonal very competitive business, so I make hay when the sun is shining and the nature or our work isn't something that can be easily delegated. Doing what we do has served to keep us gainfully employed in a very difficult economy. So while our business skill could certainly use some(lots of) improvement, I'll count being in business a positive reflection of our business savvy. In our field the folks that do the work we do the way we do it most often don't work for other companies, they go start their own(just like we did). Some move on to a company that has better (management) opportunities (whose product doesn't compare to ours) as we've chosen to keep our business smaller. Most don't continue in our line of work. I don't claim that's your fault nor a unions fault, I recognize what my burden is. Part of that burden is that sometimes our employees make more on a job than we do nor do I get to take frequent vacations much less in exotic places.

    To answer your question concerning who makes a company:
    I recognize that a companies most valuable asset is its employees. As a former employee and manager, I also recognize that many, often most, employees don't hold up their end of that responsibility. And yes I've encountered unionized employees whose ethic was to do what the union allowed them to do opposed to what was best for the customer which by necessity was best for the business the unionized employee was representing.
    What gets lost in these discussions is the most often huge personal risk the business owner (and by necessity the owners family) must take that affords an employee their opportunity to be a valuable asset. What makes an employee irreplaceable? when they are willing to shoulder the same risk and become an owner. Without someone willing to take and maintain the risk of building a company, there are no employees.


    What makes a company? a responsibility and fidelity to the best good.
    Both owners and employees (to include unionized employees) have a habit of departing from that.

    That was before the discussion in question.

    Good post. However, You are only seeing it from one side. Our union is not running the company into the ground. Our facility is in fact the most profitable one in the company. There are near zero attendance and production issues with over 250 employees under contract. Peer pressure keeps the deadbeats out. They get run off quickly by other union members. You guys hear so much crap in the news about corrupt unions you actually believe the garbage. As a group we are the largest donators to several organizations like the United Way, Relay for Life, public schools, and community events in the region, as well as sponsoring many local youth organizations. Yeah, we're trying to bring down the economy alright!!! You make me laugh.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    Or do unions force companies to keep workers like these

    Absolutely not. They would go through the arbitration process like the contract (that the company agreed to) states. Our policy is clear. That would be immediate termination, and none of the union leaders would argue. And the Blaze? Really?

  7. #82
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    Unions.........what have you done for me lately?

    There was a time, and there was a need. But now with union membership at barely over 11% of the workforce, down from about 35% in 1954, the only place where unions are fairly strong are in NON-COMPETITIVE shops such as the government workforce. Or in the teaching field.

    A few unions have altered their mission and tactics, but I never witnessed much change in big industry unions from '73 thru '05.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/com...p-is-declining

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ublic-support/
    ....................Sent via Overland Pony Express.............

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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenBubba View Post
    That's been my experience here. Over the last 10 to 15 years HD has gotten better and Lowe's has gone downhill. Now if HD would only use higher wattage bulbs they'd be perfect.
    What's with Lowes anyway? Even a lot of their stuff that used to be decent quality is starting to go to hell.

    I would think as small business owners yourselves, you and cobo, would support your local hardware stores instead of the big chains anyway.

    Maybe if they had unions the workers could destroy them and return the business back to the locals.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    What's with Lowes anyway? Even a lot of their stuff that used to be decent quality is starting to go to hell.

    I would think as small business owners yourselves, you and cobo, would support your local hardware stores instead of the big chains anyway.

    Maybe if they had unions the workers could destroy them and return the business back to the locals.

    Bahhahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    That was before the discussion in question.

    Good post. However, You are only seeing it from one side. Our union is not running the company into the ground. Our facility is in fact the most profitable one in the company. There are near zero attendance and production issues with over 250 employees under contract. Peer pressure keeps the deadbeats out. They get run off quickly by other union members. You guys hear so much crap in the news about corrupt unions you actually believe the garbage. As a group we are the largest donators to several organizations like the United Way, Relay for Life, public schools, and community events in the region, as well as sponsoring many local youth organizations. Yeah, we're trying to bring down the economy alright!!! You make me laugh.
    So my post muddied waters that your post had nothing to do with?

    I make you laugh?
    Where do I infer that your union is trying to bring the economy down? Obviously a matter of opinion, yet I believe my post addressed more of the reality, less one sided, than have yours.

    Anyhow, seems we might be taking Labor day off. Thank you to whomever warrants it.
    Walk Your Talk

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    What's with Lowes anyway? Even a lot of their stuff that used to be decent quality is starting to go to hell.

    I would think as small business owners yourselves, you and cobo, would support your local hardware stores instead of the big chains anyway.

    Maybe if they had unions the workers could destroy them and return the business back to the locals.
    Something about one liners...............
    Walk Your Talk

  12. #87
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    What frustrates me the most is the constant broad-brushing of concepts.

    Union labor is still by definition, labor. people who are there to do a task.
    Unions by definitions are designed to protect the rights of the people doing those tasks from exploitation and abuse.

    They realize the concept of representative labor. (IMO not necessarily a bad thing.)
    but when the system is gamed to allow the union folks to play games, have wildcat strikes and bully their employers, that where I draw the line.

    As I have said before, I have been in a non union manufacturing shop where regular and harsh mental, physical and psychological abuse took place with absolutely no recourse say walking out or being terminated.

    Wages were greatly suppressed, health benefits were FORCED on us (long before the crap-man in chief did it) and open hostility towards the workers was rampant.
    Would have a union helped us? No.
    The company would have simply folded operations and left.

    The only recourse for myself after 10 years of this BS was to walk. I did, got a degree and I didn't burn the bridge, I nuked the damn thing!

    I also years earlier, worked in a shop where if I had made the 6 mo. probation, I would have automatically defaulted to a union.
    During this time, I was moved to the graveyard shift to work, and one morning was kicked in the tailbone by a drunk supervisor who had a fight with his wife and took it out on me.

    I was represented by a union rep. with a statement even before I was off probi., and they went to bat to have the supervisor fired.

    But I was terminated prior to 6 mo. because I was a political appointment and the resentment by the management of this city shop didn't like that. Because I had not hit 6 mo. I had no recourse.
    So I see both sides of this.

    But I keep pointing out that the blue collar and brown collar guys/gals, seem to forget ALOT that their lives in a shop really cannot exist without the employer. the animosity toward the company or department seems to be misplaced by the Union thug leadership convincing the workers that they will get the sun the moon and the stars for nothing. (And yes I have heard of such discussions.)

    There is also a lacking of understanding that those who do the labor is dependent on those who do accounting, the leadership (management) the designers, white collar engineers and the like.
    Without such, the work to be done by the steel workers, Teamsters, Carpenters, HVAC, Plumbers, Airline Attendants, etc. would not exist.

    The hostility toward those who are above in status or those above in position seem to be looked upon with particular disdain by the average Union Joe.

    This is a two way street folks.

    In gubnet particularly, management is trying to do a job. Abuse does occur, but in large part is the exception, not the rule.
    Are there morons in charge? You bet ya! I work with several every day.

    I currently am trying to clean up nearly 50 years of neglect by workers who did not do their job because they (though non union) were gubnet employees who were in all respects appointed.
    They were there to collect a paycheck and nothing more. The end result is a disastrous problem where the concept of Fair and Equitable taxation takes a back seat to politics.

    With a union in place, the problem would not have been any better because the elected official calls the shots, not union or written regulations.

    I am neither for or against unions in general, but when they abuse their protected status under law and utilize that law to bully and force employers or departments to outside the norm, it causes huge problems for not only the organization /department, but for the general public.

    The hard core Union guys really need to understand that they are not God's gift to the world and (unfortunately) just as expendable as a non union worker.

    Can anyone say US Steel?
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  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Absolutely not. They would go through the arbitration process like the contract (that the company agreed to) states. Our policy is clear. That would be immediate termination, and none of the union leaders would argue. And the Blaze? Really?
    Well the workers in question also got reinstated. There are many of these stories most regarding the UAW. And I would have quoted fox or CNN but I try to find something everyone can read. Some say they break out in hives with fox or CNN.
    Praesto et Persto

  14. #89

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    What's with Lowes anyway? Even a lot of their stuff that used to be decent quality is starting to go to hell.

    I would think as small business owners yourselves, you and cobo, would support your local hardware stores instead of the big chains anyway.

    Maybe if they had unions the workers could destroy them and return the business back to the locals.
    This shows your lack of understanding,

    because one notices the low light in a store means they do not support local business, no I do not think so.
    Because one is a small business owner they can't shop at a chain.... thats ludicrous..........it is as ridiculous as saying union employed folks should only support union stores......what would you buy?
    you paint your assumptions with a very broad brush, but you do have an audience, I bet that's nice for you.

    What company is your union and its 250 employees a part of? Is it the most profitable by the dollar of profit generated or the percentage of profit to dollars of income? What is the field that you specialize in that requires union labor to prop up your companies standing in its organization? Are you implying that your company is the most profitable in the organization because it employs a Union? Does your division make the same product as other divisions in your company?

    I ask so I can see how a union makes such a big difference and if it is the sole determining factor, how your board of directors or owner could be so stupid not to simply unionize his other plants and become even richer so he could vacation somewhere real expensive. I am often bewildered by the hatred union employees have for those with authority and those who have risked much to have much.

    CG
    ..............it's that you shoot!

    "One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed
    by your inferiors."

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by coilguy View Post
    This shows your lack of understanding,

    because one notices the low light in a store means they do not support local business, no I do not think so.
    Because one is a small business owner they can't shop at a chain.... thats ludicrous..........it is as ridiculous as saying union employed folks should only support union stores......what would you buy?
    you paint your assumptions with a very broad brush, but you do have an audience, I bet that's nice for you.

    What company is your union and its 250 employees a part of? Is it the most profitable by the dollar of profit generated or the percentage of profit to dollars of income? What is the field that you specialize in that requires union labor to prop up your companies standing in its organization? Are you implying that your company is the most profitable in the organization because it employs a Union? Does your division make the same product as other divisions in your company?

    I ask so I can see how a union makes such a big difference and if it is the sole determining factor, how your board of directors or owner could be so stupid not to simply unionize his other plants and become even richer so he could vacation somewhere real expensive. I am often bewildered by the hatred union employees have for those with authority and those who have risked much to have much.

    CG
    Even cobo knew that was banter.

    That shows your lack of understanding. You are completely misled by whatever notions you presume. The union supports the business. We don't hate the company or the Board of directors. We have not had a strike since 1976 and the company and it's employees flourish. Perhaps you could see the forest through the trees if you weren't holding contempt for something you clearly don't understand.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    Well the workers in question also got reinstated. There are many of these stories most regarding the UAW. And I would have quoted fox or CNN but I try to find something everyone can read. Some say they break out in hives with fox or CNN.
    I guarantee the UAW was not threatening a company wide strike over a couple of potheads. They may have forced the use of arbitration as agreed to in the contract with the company though. That likely includes a stepped discipline process for the employees. That would be something the company agreed to in the labor contract.

  18. #93
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    "Even cobow".?.
    Again with the one liners cb. You've been rather passive aggressive our last couple of discussions.
    Walk Your Talk

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    So my post muddied waters that your post had nothing to do with?

    I make you laugh?
    Where do I infer that your union is trying to bring the economy down? Obviously a matter of opinion, yet I believe my post addressed more of the reality, less one sided, than have yours.

    Anyhow, seems we might be taking Labor day off. Thank you to whomever warrants it.
    I'm guilty of the broad brush perhaps........ Have a great weekend and play safe!!

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobowhntr View Post
    "Even cobow".?.
    Again with the one liners cb. You've been rather passive aggressive our last couple of discussions.
    I know, I know. Depends on the subject matter I suppose.

    Believe me, I have been on "your" (broad brush again) side in this argument. Having seen both sides of both big and small business, I can hold ground in either argument. There are some serious cut-throats out there. Scary stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrunson View Post
    Even cobo knew that was banter.

    That shows your lack of understanding. You are completely misled by whatever notions you presume. The union supports the business. We don't hate the company or the Board of directors. We have not had a strike since 1976 and the company and it's employees flourish. Perhaps you could see the forest through the trees if you weren't holding contempt for something you clearly don't understand.
    Banter is there for a reason, if you did not believe it I assumed you would not have written it. Banter or not. If I assumed wrong......sorry.

    I have zero contempt for this, for you or the concept of unionized labor. Furthermore, I have a pretty credible understanding of the subject, if you cared to find out as opposed to assume you know who I am, you would realize this is so.

    I can see the trees, the forest, the undergrowth, the rocks, and the mushrooms. I actually did ask about your company (look its there) so I had a point of reference to draw from, you seemed obliged to neglect that fact, which is what I expected. I never implied in that post your union did not support the business, I never implied your union did not wish to see it flourish, I simply asked for detail so I would not have to make assumptions. Please do not misread my posts nor misinterpret my intent. Maybe take the log from your eye while strolling in my forest before you point out the one you seem to think is lodged in mine. I will be logging out off here for a few days so hopefully you will enjoy your weekend and I will do my best to enjoy mine.

    CG
    ..............it's that you shoot!

    "One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed
    by your inferiors."

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    Well the workers in question also got reinstated. There are many of these stories most regarding the UAW. And I would have quoted fox or CNN but I try to find something everyone can read. Some say they break out in hives with fox or CNN.
    Are all unions painted with such a broad brush?

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    Quote Originally Posted by coilguy View Post
    Banter is there for a reason, if you did not believe it I assumed you would not have written it. Banter or not. If I assumed wrong......sorry.

    I have zero contempt for this, for you or the concept of unionized labor. Furthermore, I have a pretty credible understanding of the subject, if you cared to find out as opposed to assume you know who I am, you would realize this is so.

    I can see the trees, the forest, the undergrowth, the rocks, and the mushrooms. I actually did ask about your company (look its there) so I had a point of reference to draw from, you seemed obliged to neglect that fact, which is what I expected. I never implied in that post your union did not support the business, I never implied your union did not wish to see it flourish, I simply asked for detail so I would not have to make assumptions. Please do not misread my posts nor misinterpret my intent. Maybe take the log from your eye while strolling in my forest before you point out the one you seem to think is lodged in mine. I will be logging out off here for a few days so hopefully you will enjoy your weekend and I will do my best to enjoy mine.

    CG
    Quote Originally Posted by coilguy View Post
    Do unions pay for therapy? I think you have a few issues that you could use to talk to someone about?CG

    I think I interpreted your intent quite well.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce 2 View Post
    Are all unions painted with such a broad brush?
    Only the ones that allow workers to drink and smoke dope on the job, and can't fire them because the union won't allow it. What do they expect when that is what makes the news? Google it. There are dozens of articles about this. I found at least one UAW incident every year back to 2009 and I just stopped looking.
    Praesto et Persto

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie View Post
    Only the ones that allow workers to drink and smoke dope on the job, and can't fire them because the union won't allow it. What do they expect when that is what makes the news? Google it. There are dozens of articles about this. I found at least one UAW incident every year back to 2009 and I just stopped looking.
    I guess that would be a no.

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