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What a "tuned" arrow is

4K views 46 replies 15 participants last post by  wfocharlie 
#1 ·
Hi all,

for some time I'm really bothering myself to understand what a tuned arrow is.

If we assume that your bow is setup OK and in plane, then how one should proceed with arrows tuning?

I’m asking because right now I’m playing around my CX Nano SST @ 450 that I used last year with 28lbs long limbs. With the tiller bolts set to maximum position I got 40lbs otf and with this setup I shot really good scores for my level. And I remember that on a 122cm target I was not able to put the bare shaft into the target @ 30m (going right to the target).

This year I’m using 36lbs long limbs and with 44lbs otf and the bare shaft @50m is almost at target end (50cm from the group @ 2 o’clock, I’m LH archer, which shows too stiff arrow, 31.5” from nock grove to carbon end). So definitely I’m not going to be able to have the fletched and bare shaft arrows group together at distances > 30m. And still the grouping of the fletched arrows @50m is OK when I shoot well.

In addition there are the arrows charts that suggest even stiffer arrows for my setup/DL.

So how will I know if my arrows are tuned OK? Should I always try to get the bare and fletched arrows group together at the longest distance I can reach/shoot (which will mean to increase the bow weight)? Will this give me better scores? Or having a weight that I’m comfortable with I can ignore the bare shaft and play around with BH and the plunger.

Regards.

P.S. I know that one answer is to use weak arrows, but as I’m considering new arrows right now I want to educate myself to be sure that I will do the best choice I’m able of.
 
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#2 ·
I shoot all bareshaft at 30.40.50m once they are flying
straight..then I will fletch my arrows and check bareshaft relation. Max I will set is bareshaft slightly outside about 1 to 2in left of group meaning slight stiff. Stiffer arrow will correct faster with a bad release. Im right hand shooter just so you know. If you can get the bareshaft fly straight..then they will definitely shoot like darts with fletching! Google tune for tens!
 
#4 ·
A tuned sytem is one that shoots well, groups well, and is forgiving FOR YOU.

To get there most of the time you need to have properly matched arrows. Currently your arrows are showing stiff so you need weaken the arrows dynamic spine or increase DW. Playing with BH/plunger may mask the problem but it's not really effective gross tuning. You need to be in the ball park first.

If you were unable to get the BAre shaft to come close to the fletched arrow at 30 M
You are not close enough in spine to get the arrow to tune.

We would need lots more data to give any better guesses.

DC
 
#9 ·
A tuned sytem is one that shoots well, groups well, and is forgiving FOR YOU.
As the thread is becoming another "how to tune..." and that was not my intention I will ask the question in another way: Can this be achieved with arrows that are not matched to your bow? I'm asking because last summer I got better results with a weaker bow (40lbs vs. 45lvs otf), my form was same/close with both sets of limbs, and I would expect that the heavier limbs would produce better results as the arrows should tune better with them. Of course I might have been a bit over-bowed :embara:

Regards.
 
#8 ·
again without more good info about ALL the parts of your rig, arrows and system it is very hard to give any sort of good guess. That being said, you have to be in the ballpark to start thinking about trying to get an arrow to match a bow by adjusting points, etc IF your rig is set up properly(bh somewhere in the range, centershot setup correct, etc) and your bare shafts are off the target at 30m with a 122cm face, you most likely need to buy weaker arrows.
 
#13 ·
a tuned arrow is one that groups with fletched arrows at all distances, with a good tune there is no reason if you capable of shooting all yellows at 70m that the bareshaft isn't within the 8 ring 8 out of 10(2 not so good releases) times however. however I believe to achieve this your knowledge and skill level needs to be that of 590+ shooter at 70 or equivalent lesser distances

so depending on skill level a tuned arrow for some is one that on the butt/paper or certain ring colour.
 
#14 ·
wesel -

If you want a simple (and generic) answer, it's an arrow (preferably a bare shaft) is tuned when it flies in the same direction it was point when sitting on the rest at full draw.

Viper1 out.
 
#15 ·
I was going to say something, but I realise it is going to be long-winded, and may invite some heated arguments, so while I'm trying to get a piece of document into my head, I'll take this time for the OP to allow me to spill it, or keep my peace.
 
#20 ·
Making the bare shaft fly the same as the fletch shaft means you have to do something to the bare shaft to make it "behave" the same as the fletched shaft. If you weight match the tail with some sort of weight, you still have not accounted for drag and differences in aerodynamics. If you make the arrow heavier so it will fly the same distance being that you have to account for drag, then you no longer have an accurate representation. You have changed something to adjust the parameters.

It is a fantasy to think a bare shaft can act exactly the same as a fletched shaft.

The fact that you have made it happen with your "tuning" just proves you can "fix" the numbers to create a specific outcome. It does not mean much else.

We use bare shaft tuning as a diagnostic tool. It's not always the "end goal" for many archers. There are some that prefer to shoot arrows that are dynamically weak, and there are some that prefer to shoot arrows that are stiff.

The fact however is that the OP is hoping that there is something he can do to the bow to get the arrows into a "tunable" range. That I don't think will happen given his parameters.

DC
 
#35 ·
Brilliant explanation! Much better than anything I would have come up with :)
As an example if you group tune at 70m then a bare shaft will almost certainly hit higher then the fletched group (fletching "lift" difference between the arrows). If you raise the nocking point you can probably get the bare shaft to hit at the same height as the fletched arrows - but of course your set up is no longer optimally tuned.
 
#23 ·
Having fletched and bare shafts in the same group even out to 70M is no guarantee that you have the best tune. It's a good tune, but it's very possible, that you will get better groups and therefore higher scores with some other fletched/bare relationship.

My own experience was that I seemed to score more points with a setup where my bare shaft impacted at 4-5 o'clock red at 18M.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Then here are the correct photos...

below photos are all same tune/ same bow from different times over the last 4 months.

20 yard group (3 fletched, 5 bareshaft)
View attachment 2234712

30 meter group ( 2 fletched, rest bare shaft)
View attachment 2234715


50 meter group ( 1 fletched 5 bare shaft)
View attachment 2234709

70 meter group ( 3 fletched, rest bare shaft)
View attachment 2234711

if these dont work, then i dont know what to do. They originally showed in my above post. This may or may not be the "best" tune for someone.

my post is solely to debate that it is fantasy to be able to do this.

Just last week, my JOAD students commented how on AT its posted numerous times that you cant get a bare shaft to group with fletched from 20 to 70, and then they laughed and said they watch me do it every weekend.


Chris
 
#27 ·
I can't speak for any of the other coaches but I don't believe I've ever said it can't be done. As I pointed out above, you have to do something to the bow/arrows to make them behave the same. Clearly you have a good tune for your shooting.. I would point out however if you look at your groups carefully, at 18M It's a bit hard to tell because the overall group is too tight to really say anything and 18 M is really too close to be of any significance however if you look at your 30m overall group, the fletched arrows are biased toward the right edge of the group and as you move further and further back, your fletched arrows move to the left edge of the group. I suspect this would probably be consistent over all your tuning groups. (nice shooting by the way)

Yes they are still grouped but the are NOT the same. Again clearly you have a good tune that works for you but it also shows that the arrows do NOT fly exactly the same.

I'm sure with some tweaking you could probably get them all on the same edge or always centered, or even move them around as you please but again as pointed out by several people, the arrows are not flying the same..
 
#28 ·
I can't speak for any of the other coaches but I don't believe I've ever said it can't be done. . I suspect this would probably be consistent over all your tuning groups.
It wasnt you i was debating. I was answering JoeT's post.

Bare shaft arrows are physically different to fletched arrows and so will behave differently on the bow and in the air. So it's unlikely that bare and fletched shafts will group together. The gap between where the bare and fletched shafts hit will vary with distance, again down to the different physical characteristics between them. So the idea of perfectly grouping bare and fletched shafts together and them staying together as the distance varies is a fantasy.
certainly not a fantasy.

Chris
 
#29 ·
One guy says "No one can shoot a basketball exactly the same way every time, at 20 feet, ten times in a row."

The second guy grabs a basketball, goes out to 20 feet, and makes ten straight baskets from that distances, then turns to the first guy and says "Can, too."

To which the first guy replies "Only 8 were swishes - the other two hit the rim ... not the same way every time."

Who's right and who's wrong?

That Chris' answer (and mine) doesn't meet the laboratory litmus test of 'exact match ad infinitem', doesn't make our answers any less true, if you add the implied real world qualifier "within the margin of error". Otherwise, it seems like naval gazing to me.

Bare shafts nesting with fletched gives me a tremendous sense of confidence (and satisfaction, too) ... an internal dialogue akin to "Feathers? We don't need no stinking feathers!" :darkbeer:
 
#30 ·
I did NOT say it was not possible and I did say thats good shooting. I have nothing but admiration for that level of tuning and consistency. All I pointed out was there is a pattern. The fletched arrows move from one side to the other of the group as the distances get further and further. This is an observation and statement. It does show that there is some varience in the bare shaft compared to the fletched shafts. I also stated that i have no doubt chris could make an adjustment to correct this symptom but why fix what's not really broken. I have a theory about the right to left as well but that's not the point.
 
#31 ·
i was just stating that Joe said bareshafts and fletched will not group together at various distances ( with the same tune).

I have never said they fly the same or have the aerodynamics. I stated they will group together. I did not say in doing so they have the same flight characteristics.

I also do not bother with this for beginner archers or even intermediate. I was not saying that everyone should tune to this degree.

I was refuting Joe's statement. To me grouping is general. Can i put them in the same hole at all distances. No. You can certainly see my group spread as the distance increases. And with that tune the bare shafts tend to drift slightly to the right side of the group. But there is still a group. I doubt anyone would argue that from my photos.

I was not debating Dchan at all. I was not even thinking him in the conversation. In my opinion, i was perfectly grouping bare shaft and fletched from 20 -70. Perhaps others would say they are not perfectly grouped.


Chris
 
#36 ·
No real difference here just interpretations of terminology. If I regard the group size as the size of the target face then the bare and fletched shafts are all in the same group irrespective of the distance and the tuning. If my group size is 6" then I can (as demonstrated) adjust the set up so that the bare and fletched shafts will group together over quite a range of distance. If I group tune at 70m then the conventional bare shaft position variation is from bare shaft below fletched at short distance (as per Shirt) to bare shaft above fletched at longer distance (as per Vittorio in THA). (Don't know anything about lateral variation in hit positions with distance for bare v fletched).

The assumption (or myth if you like) is that the bare shafts grouping with the fletched arrows is some indication of a tuned system. I can guarantee that nobody will come with any sensible reason why this should be the case. (You can maybe argue that fletched arrows grouping with bare shaft arrows is likely to give a reasonable set up, good enough for most archers). As DChan points out where the bare shaft hits relative to the fletched at any distance is arbitrary and determined by the archer via how the bow is adjusted.

What is interesting is Chris and his heavy points. The main difference in behaviour between the bare and fletched shafts is the "fletching action". Fletching action derives from the physical fletching area and the arrow FOC. With Chris's heavy points he's not exactly comparing a fletched arrow with a bare shaft but effectively comparing two arrows with difference sized fletchings (this true to some extent for everybody of course). With heavy points the differences between the bare and fletched arrows is reduced so the bare shaft approach becomes less useful. This I guess is possibly why you get a reduction in the bare/fletched shaft hit viaration with distance (assuming the bow was group tuned prior to producing the above photo sequence).
 
#37 ·
Point of interest. Much has been said about group tune, where the bareshaft is left out of the process completely. Suppose we have a proponent of the bareshaft grouping with fletched arrows perform a group tune, upon satisfactorily obtaining a setting, would the bareshaft still group together with the fletched arrows?
 
#38 ·
that would depend. Now you are in the realm of tuning for " Tightest group" or "most Forgiving"

neither of which you believe in.

bare shaft in my tune with fletched at all distances is tuned for tightest group. Not as forgiving. I could tune with bare shaft higher than fletched and slightly stiff and get more forgiving tune, but group spreads even on great shots. my goal is to tighten the group spread.


Chris
 
#46 ·
Here's 12 tuned bare shafts I shot at 70 meters yesterday evening. The 8 was a flier. :D

Target archery Archery Field archery Recreation Arrow
 
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