August 17th, 2003, 05:09 PM
Centershot and bow tuning
This is actually a continuation of another thread that brought about the question of centershot and bow tuning. For years some of the top archers have stated paper tuning was a waste of time because stepping forward or backwards would produce different results and the magic tune was to shoot in your center shot (moving your rest left or right to align your shots at different yardages). Now I'm hearing that instead of making left and right adjustments to my arrow rest to get my arrows centered I should just move my sight to get my point of impact where it needs to be providing I am producing good groups after paper tuning for a perfect tear. I was always under the impression that by using the walk back method to find the centershot was the preferred and recommended method for tuning your setup. I would appreciate if some of you top shooters on this site would join in and give your advise and experience.
Last edited by chase; August 17th, 2003 at 05:14 PM.
August 17th, 2003, 10:06 PM
If you are grouping and you hit further right as you move back, that would be a sight problem. The magic work is grouping. You wont be able to tell by shooting one arrow at each distance. If you can shoot a 2" group at 25, 3" group at 40 and a 4" to 5" group at 70 and lets say your arrows are in the spot a 25,but you start to shoot out to the right as you move back. That would mean you more than likely have a sight adjustment problem. Now if you are shooting groups spread apart on a horizonal level at all yardages that would indicate a center shot adjustment or a arrow spine problem. Just remember one arrow won't tell you much as to how your center shot is set. Hope this helps.
August 17th, 2003, 11:56 PM
Crawpytime1 - I disagree. If it were a sight alignment issue, the arrows would impact at the same distance (left or right) at each distance. If the distance is greater at each yardge it's a center shot problem; the arrows are coming out in one direction and are continuing in that same direction, further and further down range. If you move your sight to correct for the point of impact at lets say 40 yards......your 25 yard group is going to move in the opposite direciion of where it was. If you have a walkback group that ressembles a pattern like this: " / " you need to move your rest to the right, if it looks like this: " \ ", you need to move your rest to the left. Once you can walk back from 50 yards, and get a " l " pattern, your centershot is adjusted, now you can move your sight left or right to achieve the desired point of impact. If you have a group that ressembles a " C " shaped pattern it is a weak/stiff spine indication, depending on weather or not you are right or left handed and if it is a reverse "C" shape or an actual "C" shape pattern.
I put no faith in paper tuning. I will always walk-back to tune the centershot.
August 18th, 2003, 12:31 AM
mike is right on. paper tuning is a waste of time. if you start at say 6ft. and get a perfect tear and move back to 12 ft. and have to make an adjustment you just negated your first tear. i'm not interested in how straight the arrow flies. i want it to go where it's suppose to. group tune and forget the paper.
August 18th, 2003, 12:41 AM
If I'm able to shoot a 1.5" at 20 yrds and keep it in the dot and then shoot a 3" group at 50 yrds just out to the right I would first check my level. That usually means my level is not plum with my sight bar. I have found the best way to tune for center shot is to make sure you level is adjusted properly and then shoot at a 1" vertical tape at 40yrds. If you can keep 4to 5 arrows on the tape your center shot is set. It probably wouldn't hurt to shoot it also at 25 to make sure you get the same results. If I shoot a group at 40 yrds that looked like / I would start by adjusting my nocking point. If I shot a group that looked like ---- I would adjust my center shot.
August 18th, 2003, 01:42 AM
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned was that when you do
the walk back test, you stay with one pin. The hits will get lower on the target as you go back but they should be staight up and down. Not going up and down on an angle. After the walk back is done and you've made adj. to your rest so you get a staight line up and down, try using your other pins to keep the same point of impact as you walk back. Then if your shots are going to one side or the other, it is your sight that is not level with the bow.
I'm not an expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express.
Oh No!! Now what?
August 18th, 2003, 01:49 AM
If you go with what Mike and Deerdad said, you should have no problem. Paper tuning is useless IMHO.
August 18th, 2003, 02:06 AM
you can fine tune your centershot and do fine with your windage each time as like was said before you shoot one pin at different distances and your left anf right should stay the same and not create any problems for you. i don;t have a center shot tool so i line my arrow with the center of my limb pocket bolts and shoot at 10 yards and then walk back to 20 then 30 and then 40 as that is my limit for deer in my area of the woods. also another that may do a little opening of your groups is your tiller tune if your shotoing a single cam or twin cam i have noticed that when my tiller is off the arrows will open a bit. just work nd tinker until you feel you have reached where you r happiest and stay with it and don;t change unless there is a string change or even a change of weight drawn
August 18th, 2003, 08:15 AM
Still a Centershot Issue
If it's a sight bubble issue, it still wont make any difference. The only time that will come into play and change the point of impact either left or right is if you're shooting uphill or downhill. If you're holding your bow the same way each time the arrow is going to come out the same way each time. Now, if your bubble is seriously canted then yes it may have a little influence on left and rights, but not much. It's an uphill/downhill thing.
August 18th, 2003, 08:48 AM
I'll second what deerdad said . If you are useing a slideing sight keep it in one position . If you dont then the oldpro effect make take over . If you dont know who oldpro is I sugest you look at a picture of his setup and shooting form .
Last edited by ijimmy; August 18th, 2003 at 08:51 AM.
August 18th, 2003, 10:18 AM
Remember one thing folks. you don't have to be shooting on a hill to have a bubble problem (3 axis). In Atlantic city indoors at 60 m
your arm is elevated from the horizontal. that is an up hill shot
January 18th, 2004, 09:34 AM
The tip about same pin moving out works perfect, used it twice now to center perfect.......
Ok, how does this affect paper tuning? If you get bullet holes at 3-11 yards, then find your center is off 1/32-1/16, will this screw your earlier tuning efforts?
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January 18th, 2004, 09:56 AM
I agree firmly with Mike. Maybe I'm old school, but when I get my broadheads and points to hit in the same place out to 50 yards then I consider my bow tuned. Paper tuning can turn into a frustrating experience.
January 18th, 2004, 10:01 AM
50 yards, I'm impressed. My window is 40 and thats IF its worth the risk and 90% of factors in my favor.
2007 Bowtech Tribute 60#
Limbdriver, HHA Optimizer Lite 5019
Rage two-blade, Goldtip XT hunters 5575 Black
Line #4 for rent
Join Date: Nov 2003Has it been that long??
January 18th, 2004, 10:56 AM
IMO paper tuning can be enlighting if viewed in the correct manner.
First like many tuning methods it is not the final answer, but it is one of the accepted starting points. Much as I don't need a laser to set my nock point and center shot, one does not need to paper tune to shoot in their bow.
All of the methods discussed so far in this thread are good methods and work to one extent or another, the determining factor being the level of "tuning" the shooter is willing to accecpt.
January 18th, 2004, 11:37 AM
OK I will be the one to say I like to paper tune. I take hunting shots at very close ranges and I want my arrow coming out of my bow straight right from the shot for max penetration. A 5 yard shot is not uncommon. I start at 6 feet and paper tune back to 11 yards in my basement and then go outside and see how bh's and ft's impact(getting ahead of myself). After I get a good paper tear with a fletched arrow in my basement, I then use a bare shaft arrow to paper test further and do that until I get a perfect bullet hole. I then switch and use a (fletched) BH tipped arrow and check the tear(s) and usually they are perfect also and then outside I go. I shoot out to 30 yards in my yard and usually after I have done the above, the ft's and bh's hit right together and obviously good groups. Been doing it for many years with good results and I enjoy it !
My thoughts are this, as long as we are doing some kind of tuning (testing) trying to get the best we can from our rigs, you cant really go wrong. I dont knock anyone doing it and dont say you should be doing it my way! More people should be tuning!!!! Some guys bring their rigs over and it is pathetic how they are so out of tune but yet they hunt with them. But one of our local dealers snowballs people too, so I wont get on that subject now cuz it pees me off too much.
January 18th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Paper tuning is a complete waste of time....for anyone who is not shooting a correctly spined arrow for their bow. (which is a bunch of people) In this instance the walk back/group tuning method will probably give the best results since there is no other method of tuning that will provide adequate results with inadequate arrows.
If your arrows are properly spined for your set-up then no method will beat starting with a good paper tune, BTW a good paper tune means bullet holes from 3' to 10 yards and every point in between, not just one distance. If you can't get to this point with your set-up then find out what's wrong with your set-up or stop wasting time and go with the walk back or group tuning method of bow tuning since there is no way you'll get perfect results with an imperfect set-up.
Once you get bullet holes through paper at all distances then bare shaft tune at 20 yards or more to make those last few mircoscopic adjustments.
Finally if you prefer for the arrow to leave slightly tail high then drop your rest 1/64th of an inch and you will have a bow that will group as good as it's possible to achieve. The rest is up to you.
As a side note: Many top archers are dropping the old 1/4" tail high (left or right depending on which hand you shoot with) method of paper tuning since it was brought into play by archers shooting rests with side support and fingers. For that it made sense and still does. However if you are shooting a release and a shoot through rest or a drop away rest going to this tear will not help group size one bit unless you choose to BELIEVE it helps. After all archery is a mental game.
All this of course applies to release shooters who are more interested in the physics side of bow tuning rather than smoke and mirrors. By all means use whatever method makes ya happy!
January 18th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Don't be giving away all the secrets.... some people just like limp spine....
BTW Physics rule our everyday lives.... why not our Archery....
January 18th, 2004, 01:34 PM
Rather than edit my post which sounds harsher than I intended let me add that paper tuning/bareshaft tuning in no way is the only way to get a bow to shoot great. But it's the only method that takes aiming errors (or luck) out of the equation. Heck you can have a 6" tear and shoot a fixed distance with precision accuracy but it will not be MORE accurate than a good paper/bareshaft tuned bow with the right arrow on it.
January 18th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Smoke ain't blowing smoke!
January 18th, 2004, 07:50 PM
The first step in properly tuning a bow is the paper tuning PERIOD
Center shot means absolutely NOTHING. Center shot works only if your bow is built and lined up for center shot to work. Your grip will determine how close to centershot you are. The new roller system with Mathews will set up very close to center.
Tune to a bullet hole at 5 yards. This shows that the spine is correct. I now will line tune,vertical and horizontal. When this is done I group tune and when my bow is grouping it's best I recheck the paper tune. It will usually be close to a shaft straight high. What this has accomplished is making the bow as forgiving as possible. It is possible to get a bow with a bad tear to shoot well when you're shooting well but your poor shots will miss by much more than they should.
Please forgive me if I sound somewhat harsh but This a subject that is so misunderstood.
I've adressed this subject in detail . I believe it will be in the March April issue of 3-d times. I'll be writing an article on tuning tips in each issue so if you have any questions please feel free to contact me or Royce at 3-d times,.,.,. Derry
January 18th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Sic' em Mr. Null....
January 18th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Derry,, I too, if you do...The Hood is heere for you...
so if you have any questions please feel free to contact me or Royce at 3-d times
The Hood has been subsciber since The get go of 3d Times and now Hunting...and never throw away a copy..got them all.....
Royce is the only Magzine Owner,Editer and publisher that cares and shows up at all the shoots and a few local ones too...Hats off to you Royce for rounding up good people like Derry, Mr. Wunderle,,But(got to be a hood) I would have to say your best round up is Linda....Good job.....
I do beleave in paper tuning,,But as the world go's..Most are told not to woorie because if the shop owner (Didn't)said that???????he would have to set them up right...So The Hood know where the rumors starts...
I love tearing paper..But like Derry says,,There alot more to it then just shooting your arrow though it..
January 18th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Still gotta disagree buddy. You say that you paper tune first right? Then you Vert / Horizontial tune and group tune. When you do each of those methods you are making adjustments that void the previous ones. In a sense it's almost like waxing your car without washing it. If someone wants to paper tune that's fine as long as it's done first and not last. I've seen many people that will shoot through paper, go out and shoot in their sight settings and then never touch their rest again until they shoot through paper again at some other point in time when they's probably applying torque to the bow unknowingly and they think their bow jumped out of tune.
Here's how I set up my bow.
1.) Set up everything level and plumb all measurements are zero left/right & up/down. This means that center shot is set perfectly and the rest is centered in the middle of the limbs. It also means that my nock heigth is set in a position that is out of the norm becuase (step deleted. Being hidden from the Hood).
2.) Get a 20 yard sight setting and do a walk back tune to verfiy my center shot and make adjustments
a.) redo after making each adjustment
b.) go back to 20 and group tune vert and horiz impacts. Making adjustments to the left and right with the rest may not make sense at this point after having done the walk back tune, but the reson for this is covered below in step "c"
c.) secret step i'm hiding from the Hood. Something I learned from Pinkfletch that makes a world of difference in forgiveness.
(Step "c" can be an all day affair if you really try to find the sweet spot for the ideal setting on each piece.)
d.) With the bow tuned, I will get a quick setting for 40 yards and then I will readjust my peep based off of my 40 yard setting. I do this becuase I find that if I stick with my initial peep setting I end up straining just a little to get the scope centered in the peep at the longer distance, which are tougher to shoot anyway. With it set at the longer distance, it's not a problem to center up the scope in the peep at 20 and it's all the same to center it a 50 yards too. If it doesn't make sense to you try it out and then it will, hopefully.
e.) Shoot in my longest group and my 20 yard group and print a sight tape. Verify all sight makrings.
Alright, I'm going to go make breakfast for the kids now, but I'll be back in a few minutes
Last edited by Shooter Mike; January 18th, 2004 at 09:57 PM.
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